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Official Great Works Draft (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Bonzai
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
One of my records would clearly win the "most F-words" sub group in the category. So you know.....
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Well, if you can appreciate Mr. Cash then we might be able to break bread without a death match following. What shall your wife be wearing?Hah!I think it is fair to say that I blew that one.Please no gerbils.That said, OH rank At Folsom Prison higher, or I shall send Richard Gere's Gerbil Brigade after you!
TidesofWar
Footballguy
A Scowl?Well, if you can appreciate Mr. Cash then we might be able to break bread without a death match following. What shall your wife be wearing?Hah!I think it is fair to say that I blew that one.Please no gerbils.That said, OH rank At Folsom Prison higher, or I shall send Richard Gere's Gerbil Brigade after you!
Abrantes
Footballguy
TidesofWar
Footballguy
simey
Footballguy
I'm going to chime in here on The Eagles. The Eagles were one of the biggest bands of the 70's, and with good reason, they were very good. They weren't your typical rock band of the 70's either. Their music was a mixture of country and rock, and back then it was described as the Southern California sound. If their 70's albums were released for the first time in this decade, they would be one of the hottest alternative country acts around. Whether you just don't like their style of music, or you don't like them because of their past commercial success, or whatever reason you have, Hotel California is a great album, and there is not one bad song on it.
krista4
Footballguy
X.
Hotel California - The Eagles WAAAAYY too high
krista4
Footballguy
Generally something low-cut.Well, if you can appreciate Mr. Cash then we might be able to break bread without a death match following. What shall your wife be wearing?Hah!I think it is fair to say that I blew that one.Please no gerbils.That said, OH rank At Folsom Prison higher, or I shall send Richard Gere's Gerbil Brigade after you!
krista4
Footballguy
Gigantic red X.
simey
Footballguy
Oliver Humanzee
Footballguy
Fixed your post.
krista4
Footballguy
Deal.MisfitBlondes said:Since I missed out on the first round of rants on OH's album rankings, I'm calling dibs on the short-story rants.I can't wait for the short-story rankings!
Bonzai
Footballguy
I'm in no position to defend the Eagles, but I don't think you want to tango with simey. She probably knows more about Gram Parsons, country, jazz, and music in general than just about anybody on this board.
timschochet
Footballguy
Why do you keep repeating yourself? It's not that I can't see things in shades of grey, it's that I can't see YOU in shades of grey.MisfitBlondes said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Go ahead. You can tier them AND rank them any time.
simey
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
Awesome. I watched that all the time, too.
the moops
Footballguy
I am missing Uncle Humma's sculpture.
Oliver Humanzee
Footballguy
I could be way off base on this one, too. Perhaps I was responding to the dozens of covers of these songs, and not the Carol King version. I'll listen, and revise.
Thanks, man! And thanks to all who are kind and patient and forgiving with their opinions of my shizzle here.BTW, excellent job on these albums.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
Naaaaah, you could never be way off base, Supreme Musical Man that you areI could be way off base on this one, too. Perhaps I was responding to the dozens of covers of these songs, and not the Carol King version. I'll listen, and revise.Thanks, man! And thanks to all who are kind and patient and forgiving with their opinions of my shizzle here.BTW, excellent job on these albums.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
How bout your opinon of my Miles Davis Album?I know it could never be a Tier One Import, since you already have MD in there with Kind of Blue - your communistic judging style dictates so.What the Hell is "shizzle"??? Code for incompetence, bias, or something else?And you are judging short stories as well??? As Charlie Brown used to say, "ARGHHHH"I could be way off base on this one, too. Perhaps I was responding to the dozens of covers of these songs, and not the Carol King version. I'll listen, and revise.Thanks, man! And thanks to all who are kind and patient and forgiving with their opinions of my shizzle here.BTW, excellent job on these albums.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
There should've been a category for best shtick
timschochet
Footballguy
I will begin a countdown of the plays. I currently have 89 plays, waiting for 1 by thatguy. Without any further ado:
One Point Plays:
Chess
1776
Tommy
Everyman
Play
Almost every play I am reviewing in this list is awfully good in one way or another. However, if there are any exceptions, we're going to find them here and in the 2 pointers.
Chess, as I wrote earlier, had tons of talent behind it. The composers were the two brothers that formed the "B"s in Abba, the lyricist was the great Tim Rice (whose greatest contribution as a lyricist, Evita, was not drafted) and it starred Murray Head, who was so great as Judas in the original soundtrack to Jesus Christ Superstar. Sadly, this work just does not hold up. The songs are average and not really memorable. It was not a bad musical, just mediocre.
I don't want to call 1776 poor either. After all, it did win the Tony Award for best musical of 1969. But it's largely forgotten now, certainly no classic, and I can only guess the reason Yankee drafted it was part of his theme. Compared to the other plays drafted, it unfortunately deserves it's poor ranking.
The Who's Tommy has some of the best music in any musical selected. Songs like "Pinball Wizard", "1921", "Sensation", "Sally Simpson" are among the best that rock music has ever offered. But they made little sense as a coherent story on the original album and they make less sense on state. This was the first attempt by theatre producers, apparently out of new material, to come up with musicals based on pop music already familiar to their audience. It's a very successful formula, as seen by this work, Mamma Mia, and many others. But it doesn't make for good theatre.
Everyman was a 17th century morality play with nothing to show for it except historical importance. There is little talent here.
Play by Samuel Beckett, is my most controversial selection for one point. It was an "art" play, with characters muttering unintelligible crap with their heads sticking out of urns. To this day, critics ponder over it's hidden meanings. I see it as analagous to Marcel Duchamp's toilet, and that's where it belongs.
One Point Plays:
Chess
1776
Tommy
Everyman
Play
Almost every play I am reviewing in this list is awfully good in one way or another. However, if there are any exceptions, we're going to find them here and in the 2 pointers.
Chess, as I wrote earlier, had tons of talent behind it. The composers were the two brothers that formed the "B"s in Abba, the lyricist was the great Tim Rice (whose greatest contribution as a lyricist, Evita, was not drafted) and it starred Murray Head, who was so great as Judas in the original soundtrack to Jesus Christ Superstar. Sadly, this work just does not hold up. The songs are average and not really memorable. It was not a bad musical, just mediocre.
I don't want to call 1776 poor either. After all, it did win the Tony Award for best musical of 1969. But it's largely forgotten now, certainly no classic, and I can only guess the reason Yankee drafted it was part of his theme. Compared to the other plays drafted, it unfortunately deserves it's poor ranking.
The Who's Tommy has some of the best music in any musical selected. Songs like "Pinball Wizard", "1921", "Sensation", "Sally Simpson" are among the best that rock music has ever offered. But they made little sense as a coherent story on the original album and they make less sense on state. This was the first attempt by theatre producers, apparently out of new material, to come up with musicals based on pop music already familiar to their audience. It's a very successful formula, as seen by this work, Mamma Mia, and many others. But it doesn't make for good theatre.
Everyman was a 17th century morality play with nothing to show for it except historical importance. There is little talent here.
Play by Samuel Beckett, is my most controversial selection for one point. It was an "art" play, with characters muttering unintelligible crap with their heads sticking out of urns. To this day, critics ponder over it's hidden meanings. I see it as analagous to Marcel Duchamp's toilet, and that's where it belongs.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
Tim - I see you in here, so, d id you read my case a couple of pages earlier for The Peppers Club?? Backed with facts?If so, I hope you noted the response of the judge, which I can paraphrase with..........
Absurd
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Double Nickels > Sgt Peppers
deal with it
deal with it
timschochet
Footballguy
Two Point Plays:
Grease
Tamburlaine The Great
The Rocky Horror Show
Showboat
The Producers
Grease, IMO, is a better movie than a play, but it's also very entertaining as a play, and several of the songs are catchy. IMO, it falls below the classic musicals in both theme and content, and that's why it's here. But it's fun to watch.
I've never seen nor read Tamburlaine. From what I've been able to learn, it was one of the first "great" plays of the Elizabethan stage, yet it pales in comparison to most of what came after, including other works by Marlowe. I feel a little troubled ranking this play here, and I admit it is based on outside critics not giving it enough respect rather than any personal knowledge.
The Rocky Horror Show was also a better movie, and some of the greatness of the film is in the cult reaction. But the play features very engaging music, perhaps better 50's style rock n roll than Grease does. (My personal favorite is "Science Fiction Double Feature", which is performed rather differently from the film.) The storyline, is of course a spoof and absurd. Overall, this musical is inferior in every way to "Little Shop of Horrors", with which I think a good comparison can be made.
The greatness of Showboat is "Old Man River", which is truly one of the classic songs ever to appear on Broadway. Written by Hammerstein and Jerome Kern at the same time as the much superior "Porgy and Bess" (undrafted), these were white Jews who went to Harlem and actually listened to the music. The original production featured the great Paul Robeson, who also starred in the first film. But apart from that song, this musical is uneven. Hammerstein was just beginning his craft and would go on to much better things.
The Producers was a hilarious movie. Mel Brooks wrote the great song, "Springtime for Hitler", which is a cult classic. The Broadway show is also typical Brooks humor, and it will make you laugh long and hard, more in the manner of History of The World, Part One rather than Blazing Saddles: a lot of it is hit and miss. The problem is that Brooks throws in alongside "Springtime for Hitler" many other showtunes, all of which he wrote, none of which you will recall within 5 minutes of having heard them.
Grease
Tamburlaine The Great
The Rocky Horror Show
Showboat
The Producers
Grease, IMO, is a better movie than a play, but it's also very entertaining as a play, and several of the songs are catchy. IMO, it falls below the classic musicals in both theme and content, and that's why it's here. But it's fun to watch.
I've never seen nor read Tamburlaine. From what I've been able to learn, it was one of the first "great" plays of the Elizabethan stage, yet it pales in comparison to most of what came after, including other works by Marlowe. I feel a little troubled ranking this play here, and I admit it is based on outside critics not giving it enough respect rather than any personal knowledge.
The Rocky Horror Show was also a better movie, and some of the greatness of the film is in the cult reaction. But the play features very engaging music, perhaps better 50's style rock n roll than Grease does. (My personal favorite is "Science Fiction Double Feature", which is performed rather differently from the film.) The storyline, is of course a spoof and absurd. Overall, this musical is inferior in every way to "Little Shop of Horrors", with which I think a good comparison can be made.
The greatness of Showboat is "Old Man River", which is truly one of the classic songs ever to appear on Broadway. Written by Hammerstein and Jerome Kern at the same time as the much superior "Porgy and Bess" (undrafted), these were white Jews who went to Harlem and actually listened to the music. The original production featured the great Paul Robeson, who also starred in the first film. But apart from that song, this musical is uneven. Hammerstein was just beginning his craft and would go on to much better things.
The Producers was a hilarious movie. Mel Brooks wrote the great song, "Springtime for Hitler", which is a cult classic. The Broadway show is also typical Brooks humor, and it will make you laugh long and hard, more in the manner of History of The World, Part One rather than Blazing Saddles: a lot of it is hit and miss. The problem is that Brooks throws in alongside "Springtime for Hitler" many other showtunes, all of which he wrote, none of which you will recall within 5 minutes of having heard them.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
I am competitive, determined, and doggedly soI have been dunked on by some of the best ever, and was back down scoring on them in 4 or 5 seconds. You Pout, or you play.
I am driven, and love the fact that Basketball and Football are decided on the field, not like gymnastics or diving, which depends on the fairness and equity of judges.
When we lost, I lost, and I have a bitter taste, and more motivation to improve and win the next time.
I spent inumerable hours alone, shooting, dribbling, lifting, trying to get better. I hate to lose.
If striving for excellence, in any undertaking, and despising seeing some try to subvert the effort is "schtick" then I am guilty
Fennis
Footballguy
oh pulls out new schtick for this post. Bravo.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
Your opinion is wide rightDeal with it - if you wish to jump in the debate, at least bring something of value
drfeelgood
Footballguy
That album was not only a breakthrough for female singer-songwriters, it was a breakthrough for the singer-songwriter genre in general. Carole King is one of the most respected songwriters in music, and just listening to Tapestry it's easy to see why.
timschochet
Footballguy
That's quite a paraphrase.I also disagree with the judges placement of Sgt. Pepper, but I don't see you making a good case for it. If you really want to make this argument, forget other critics and explain why you believe that Sgt. Pepper deserves first tier placement. For me, it's the innovation of the music. It continued an evolution of popular music begun on Rubber Soul, continued on Revolver and Pet Sounds and perfected on Sgt. Pepper. It's impossible to evaluate those other albums IMO without regarding Sgt. Pepper as their culmination and as the height of artistic achievement. That being said, in my own personal opinion, the Beatles would achieve their greatest musical masterpiece a few years later with Abbey Road.
I also think the first tier is too full of Jazz albums. But then again, I don't listen to Be Bop and don't really understand it.
The above is the sort of argument I would have made. But instead, unfortunately, you chose to insult the judge. You're free to do what you want, but I don't think it's going to get you anywhere, as I wrote before.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
"debate"lol
TidesofWar
Footballguy
I am sorry that I was probably better than Fennis Dembo, who was a very good player. He was coached by a friend of mine, Benny Dees
Fennis
Footballguy
Better at what?
TidesofWar
Footballguy
Insult?Yes, your explanation nailed it.
But this guy has made it clear he is not open to other opinion in this matter, and he has not made a salient point as to why he has it so low, save for "I want to"
At some point you have to merge personal preference with general perception, and this guy cannot see that.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
Lets just say I played longer, and probably with more profit. A lot of it deals with getting into the right situation. Lot of luck, for all but the best.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
Tim, should the Judge not also have to make a case for ranking an album so far below conventional wisdom??The Guy has made no case just a declaration
timschochet
Footballguy
Three Point Plays:
Gypsy
Rent
Chicago
Cats
The Sound of Music
Now it starts to get really difficult for me, because I don't want to write anything bad about the five plays, all of which I love. So I won't. They are here because the plays selected above them are a little better, that's all.
Gypsy features one of the most iconic performers in the history of stage, the immortal Ethel Merman. She belts out "Everything's Coming Up Roses" and it is even superior, IMO, to her other superlative performance of "There's No Business Like Show Business" in Annie Get Your Gun.
I saw Rent on Broadway for the first time last year, featuring Tamrya Gray of American Idol fame. It is a marvelous musical, and I'm glad it was drafted.
Chicago was Bob Fosse's second great masterpiece of the stage. His first great masterpiece, Cabaret, which is IMO one of the top 5 musicals of all time, was not selected. I also think Fosse's two incredible films, Cabaret and All That Jazz, were worthy of being drafted.
Cats is one of my all time favorite musicals. I first saw it in London in 1982 in a theatre of the round. That was it's opening production. Lloyd Webber has never been more melodic, and of course the poetry by TS Eliot is outstanding. It's a wonderful play for children to see as well. Simply magnificent.
The Sound of Music was a little better as a movie, but it's still Rodgers and Hammerstein at the height of their great partnership. Terrific story, music, songs. Really one of the great artistic partnerships to ever exist.
Gypsy
Rent
Chicago
Cats
The Sound of Music
Now it starts to get really difficult for me, because I don't want to write anything bad about the five plays, all of which I love. So I won't. They are here because the plays selected above them are a little better, that's all.
Gypsy features one of the most iconic performers in the history of stage, the immortal Ethel Merman. She belts out "Everything's Coming Up Roses" and it is even superior, IMO, to her other superlative performance of "There's No Business Like Show Business" in Annie Get Your Gun.
I saw Rent on Broadway for the first time last year, featuring Tamrya Gray of American Idol fame. It is a marvelous musical, and I'm glad it was drafted.
Chicago was Bob Fosse's second great masterpiece of the stage. His first great masterpiece, Cabaret, which is IMO one of the top 5 musicals of all time, was not selected. I also think Fosse's two incredible films, Cabaret and All That Jazz, were worthy of being drafted.
Cats is one of my all time favorite musicals. I first saw it in London in 1982 in a theatre of the round. That was it's opening production. Lloyd Webber has never been more melodic, and of course the poetry by TS Eliot is outstanding. It's a wonderful play for children to see as well. Simply magnificent.
The Sound of Music was a little better as a movie, but it's still Rodgers and Hammerstein at the height of their great partnership. Terrific story, music, songs. Really one of the great artistic partnerships to ever exist.
krista4
Footballguy
I mentioned at lunch today with OH that I thought it really interesting that he has so much jazz very high. He doesn't like jazz and never listens to it, despite my efforts. (The Mingus is now an exception since he seems quite taken with it.)So much for his rankings being based solely on his personal taste.
timschochet
Footballguy
You're wrong about this. He did make a case. He stated that the level of greatness between the best albums was so thin that he did not want to have more than one album by the same artist. I disagree with this argument and stated why earlier. But your accusing him of just being obstinate and going with only his personal taste is far from accurate.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
At the end of the judging, I will be ranking the judges from best to worse in order to crown a "top judge".
TidesofWar
Footballguy
If you are making a controversial decision, it would help to back it up with more than "Bacause that is what I think" - don't you think?Never trust anyone that willingly eats Vietnamese food :XMisfitBlondes said:Why does the judge have to make a case?
