Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Why would we send down an infielder when Walker and/or Crosby may be heading to the DL with concussion issues. If they send him down, Huntington really should just be fired now.
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***Official Pittsburgh Pirates 2010 Thread*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Drunken Cowboy
- Start date
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
It may be true, but it hasn't been verified anywhere at all since the twitter post. I can't really imagine they'd call him up, give him 40 at bats, and send him down.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
In the lineup today.Steelers4Life said:
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Huge at bat for him in the 8th with the bases loaded.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
And he struck out.
eagles2007
Footballguy
thought it was ridiculous to send him down already (though he doesn't belong up yet).
guess ed price can't be trusted.
i would have pinch hit for him in the 8th once they brought in marshall. no way he was touching him.
guess ed price can't be trusted.
i would have pinch hit for him in the 8th once they brought in marshall. no way he was touching him.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
I heard yesterday on the radio that our record in june is the worst single month record in baseball since 1896.
Your Pittsburgh Pirates: Reaching New Levels of BadTM
Your Pittsburgh Pirates: Reaching New Levels of BadTM
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
I would rather it have been McCutchen. He deserves to go.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Alvarez is starting to hit. It is making a big difference. If they get rid of Church, they would be free of below the Mendoza line hitter in the starting lineup.
eagles2007
Footballguy
Yeah, looks like the light bulb has come on for Mr. Alvarez. Think it's a 7-game hitting streak, HRs in back-to-back games. I still don't expect much more than .250 average, but he looks better at the plate.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
Was not impressed with the SI article. The writer evidently believes the owner and front office speak the gospel truth. The writer also states how MLB confirms Coonelly's version of how revenue is used. Well, since MLB essentially put Coonelly in the job, what else would one expect MLB to say---that Coonelly is wrong? Also, what did anyone actually learn about the Pirates from reading that article? It had little depth. What a tired premise---once great franchise fallen on hard times, etc. Very formulaic piece.
Also, what difference does it make that Nutting does not derive a salary from his position? That doesn't preclude him from diverting revenue to his other businesses----a topic not addressed yet one periodically suspected by Pirate fans. The writer seems to have no real insight about the Pirates. It's ok to be objective and open as a journalist; it's another to be a mark.
Also, what difference does it make that Nutting does not derive a salary from his position? That doesn't preclude him from diverting revenue to his other businesses----a topic not addressed yet one periodically suspected by Pirate fans. The writer seems to have no real insight about the Pirates. It's ok to be objective and open as a journalist; it's another to be a mark.
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dparker713
Footballguy
Well, the MLBPA also looked over their finances and seemed satisfied.monessen said:
monessen
Footballguy
To me, satisfied is a relative term. I'm satisfied my old car is still running but it looks sad compared to others in a parking lot. MLBPA Executive Director Michael Weiner was said to have "grudgingly" accepted the Pirates' spending plan, according to ESPN. Then, there's this from everyone's "favorite" Pgh sports reporter, Mark Madden:
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2010/5/21/148261...ims-someone-has
It is rather paradoxical to call a team the most futile in professional sports the way SI did, but lay all the blame with what happened before 2008. It could very well be that MLBPA was grudgingly placated, though they did go after the Pirates on the Alvarez contract a few years back. After all, talent's payroll is commensurate with the talent on the 40-man roster. I am not sure anyone is underpaid based on performance to date, with the exceptions of Meek and Andrew McCutchen.
Perhaps the difference between smaller market team success like the kind enjoyed by the Reds, Tampa, Twins, etc., lies in their passion to field the best team they can, while the Pirates are satisfied to field a team.
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2010/5/21/148261...ims-someone-has
It is rather paradoxical to call a team the most futile in professional sports the way SI did, but lay all the blame with what happened before 2008. It could very well be that MLBPA was grudgingly placated, though they did go after the Pirates on the Alvarez contract a few years back. After all, talent's payroll is commensurate with the talent on the 40-man roster. I am not sure anyone is underpaid based on performance to date, with the exceptions of Meek and Andrew McCutchen.
Perhaps the difference between smaller market team success like the kind enjoyed by the Reds, Tampa, Twins, etc., lies in their passion to field the best team they can, while the Pirates are satisfied to field a team.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Best park in baseball.
CrossEyed
Footballguy
Too bad going there requires you to watch the Pirates attempt to play baseball.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
monessen
Footballguy
My displeasure with Huntington is long noted and doubtlessly redundant to posters here. Sorry. But my real assertion is the Pirates chose inexperienced GMs in the past decade or longer----guys who've not been in that position in MLB before----which has deepened the troubles. Given the depth of difficulties in the organization, it would have been a no-brainer to replace Littlefield with a seasoned GM because the job is too big for a fellow like Huntington. Perhaps the opportunity has been offered to bigger names but they saw the constraints and wouldn't take on the challenge. If that is so, I give Huntington credit since he had nothing to lose. Turning the team around makes him an up and coming genius. But no change in the status quo just underscores a futile circumstance that isn't truly his fault. And he too can join the ranks of those who blame G. W. Bush for the "mess inherited." After all, Bush approved some bad trades for the Rangers back in the day so there is a baseball context. Gallaraga's near no-hitter was not blown by ump Jim Joyce; I believe Karl Rove or **** Cheney arranged it.
Speaking of context, we can only hope Huntington's recent controversial comments in Sports Illustrated were taken out of context but the front office did not take steps to rectify. To state that the Pirates won't get into bidding wars over their prospective free agents with other teams in the years to come was a mistake. He sounded as if current players leaving what is attempting to be built is a sign of disloyalty (Of course, Neal wasn't loyal to Capps but I guess he thinks he should apply only one way). Everyone knows MLB is big business and some real spending is necessary. Fortifying Double A teams won't bring fans to PNC Park. If GMs get evaluated solely on upgrading lower minor league teams, he'd have a decent resume.
The next two weeks will be very intriguing to see who the Pirates will move. But I would count on another serious housecleaning, this time in the bullpen where they have some quality depth----Donnelly, Carrasco, J. Lopez, Dotel maybe.
Speaking of context, we can only hope Huntington's recent controversial comments in Sports Illustrated were taken out of context but the front office did not take steps to rectify. To state that the Pirates won't get into bidding wars over their prospective free agents with other teams in the years to come was a mistake. He sounded as if current players leaving what is attempting to be built is a sign of disloyalty (Of course, Neal wasn't loyal to Capps but I guess he thinks he should apply only one way). Everyone knows MLB is big business and some real spending is necessary. Fortifying Double A teams won't bring fans to PNC Park. If GMs get evaluated solely on upgrading lower minor league teams, he'd have a decent resume.
The next two weeks will be very intriguing to see who the Pirates will move. But I would count on another serious housecleaning, this time in the bullpen where they have some quality depth----Donnelly, Carrasco, J. Lopez, Dotel maybe.
dparker713
Footballguy
Epstein, Beinfest, Beane, Friedman, Jack Z, Cashman -- thats a cursory list of people considered among the best, if not the best, GMs in the game. All of them are in their first GM positions. Huntington may not be the proper hire, but that doesn't mean signing a retread was the proper move.
monessen
Footballguy
After first-timers Ted Simmons, Bonifay, Littlefield, etc., having a seasoned hand on the wheel, as the Bucs did when they brought back Joe Brown in the 80s after the drug trials to restore order, seemed like a prudent move. I wouldn't consider Walt Jocketty a retread. He seems to be prospering quite well.
eagles2007
Footballguy
are you telling me these guys shouldn't be moved for prospects? i will totally disagree with you on that. move them now and improve the farm system. the mclouth trade is looking better and better every day. gorkys was just in the futures game (though he probably isn't ever going to be a stud with the Bucs) and Locke is 9-3 with a 3.4ish ERA and a 1.1 WHIP. Time to move him to Altoona and see how he does the rest of the year.
monessen
Footballguy
My post does say the Pirates will likely move a few of those relievers for "prospects." I apologize if that wasn't clear despite the fact it is. Trading a couple of them is the right thing to do.
The McLouth trade never should have been made with Atlanta. We're straining for silver linings on that. Though Nate has struggled, it was unwarranted to deal him for so little. As Chuck Noll used to say about guys who couldn't cut it, it's time for them to move on and do their life's work. That is spelled M-O-R-T-O-N. I don't think most fans give 2 hoots about Locke or Gorkys. If Locke proves to be a decent pitcher, the Bucs will deal him in a couple of years for "prospects."
The McLouth trade never should have been made with Atlanta. We're straining for silver linings on that. Though Nate has struggled, it was unwarranted to deal him for so little. As Chuck Noll used to say about guys who couldn't cut it, it's time for them to move on and do their life's work. That is spelled M-O-R-T-O-N. I don't think most fans give 2 hoots about Locke or Gorkys. If Locke proves to be a decent pitcher, the Bucs will deal him in a couple of years for "prospects."
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Hernandez was possibly the worst player on the roster. I have no idea what he was doing there. He is batting .264 with no power. Here is what Keith Law from ESPN had to say about him
LinkThat being said, I would trade anybody on the roster with more than 2 years of service. They will not be on a Pirates team that doesn't suck anyhow.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
The McLouth trade was viewed as a success by people who analyze it for a living.While Morton has struggled this year, he made 18 starts last year. 17 of them resulted in a 3.60 ERA, 1 of them was a 10 run/1 IP blow-up in Chicago. Not sure what happened to that guy this year. He needs to learn to be more agressive, but I STILL believe he can be a league average starter. And at the time, people that follow the minors like myself believed that Locke was the key piece of the deal. A hard throwing lefty with fixable control problems, and he's made great strides this year. Gorkys wasn't much of a hitter before they got him, and he's not much of a hitter now. However, he's was listed by Baseball America as the best defender on either roster of the Futures Game... that's what will get him a spot Best Defense: Gorkys Hernandez, cf, PiratesHernandez isn't having the best year at the plate, but he showed why scouts still consider him among the best defensive outfielders in the minors. Hernandez's best play came in the sixth inning, when Logan Morrison (Marlins) drove a ball into the left-center field gap. Hernandez got a good read off the bat, ran the ball down and leaped into the wall to make the catch. Later in the game he showed off his arm strength by nearly throwing out Jennings coming home to score from second base on a single to center.That's not a bad package of players for Nate McLouth, who was looked at as a fringe starter with average power, average speed, and below average contact ability by other teams... he was overrated in Pittsburgh because the Pirates have produced so few players who even became average. They sold high on him and got a very solid return for him no matter how it turns out.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Heard on the radio its been a month since the Pirates hit a HR with someone on base 
Also, I cant read more than a few sentences on the Bucs at once, so some of you FBGs should cut down the length of your Pirates posts
Also, I cant read more than a few sentences on the Bucs at once, so some of you FBGs should cut down the length of your Pirates posts
eagles2007
Footballguy
watched today's game and am much more impressed with pedro. i know oswalt got hurt, but pedro put some good swings on the ball against him.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
The offense is really starting to show some signs of having a nice core of young talent... Tabata, Walker, McCutchen, Jones, and Alvarez, and Milledge has been hitting very well since the beginning of June with lots of walks, plenty of doubles, and not as many strikeouts. Splitting time has limited his production, but I want to see if it's for real over the next couple months.Now if only they could get some consistent pitching.eagles2007 said:
monessen
Footballguy
From Dejan K's column in today's Pgh PG:
• Although pitching prospect Tim Alderson struggled immensely Sunday in his first start for Class A Bradenton after being demoted from Class AA -- seven runs in 1 2/3 innings -- he will stay in a starting role. Kyle Stark, director of player development, said the team's current focus is not results but "delivery and mentality adjustments." He added, "We actually didn't force anything on Tim and just wanted him to get back on the mound to see how he dealt with the adversity of getting sent down. Obviously, the results weren't good, but we're putting a plan in place."
There's' always a "plan in place" with the Pirates. It's just that most of those plans aren't very good.
• Although pitching prospect Tim Alderson struggled immensely Sunday in his first start for Class A Bradenton after being demoted from Class AA -- seven runs in 1 2/3 innings -- he will stay in a starting role. Kyle Stark, director of player development, said the team's current focus is not results but "delivery and mentality adjustments." He added, "We actually didn't force anything on Tim and just wanted him to get back on the mound to see how he dealt with the adversity of getting sent down. Obviously, the results weren't good, but we're putting a plan in place."
There's' always a "plan in place" with the Pirates. It's just that most of those plans aren't very good.
Balco
Footballguy
Just a complete aside, but I could have sworn Roy Halladay went to Single A for the Blue Jays because his delivery got out of whack. Am I confusing him with someone else?I was reading on Alderson's fall as a top prospect. He lost like 8 mph on his fastball? How does that happen? I think the Pirates should have spent alot more time with him working on reshaping his delivery before trotting him out in single A.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
He had lost most of that velocity before the Pirates even traded for him. One possibility is not currently on the juice.Balco said:
Copeman
Footballguy
Meh, pretty much what I had envisioned before the season started, horrible play, horrible management, horrible coaching, etc...., but it is fun watching the younger guys develop, and thankfully the majority of them were called up earlier than expected. I am enjoying that aspect thus far. I think these guys will all be solid if not excellent big leaguers eventually. Just hope Nutting will dish the dough out to keep them this time. History says otherwise....
ETA: Moss is tearing it up pretty good in the minors, any chance he gets called back up? I'd love to see him get another shot.
ETA: Moss is tearing it up pretty good in the minors, any chance he gets called back up? I'd love to see him get another shot.
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Balco
Footballguy
It seems to be a recurring theme with Alvarez at all his stops. He seems to struggle in the beginning, and then after he adjusts, he really comes on. Bodes well for his and the Pirate's future. McCutcheon and Alvarez are two very nice building blocks.It will be interesting to see if they can get rid of some of their higher salary players at the deadline. Not sure how much Dotel will fetch as he isn't exactly dominating with that 4.75 ERA.
eagles2007
Footballguy
Dotel will be fine on a team that doesn't have to play the Brewers.
Unlucky
Phenom
I think the Clippers are worse.
Unlucky
Phenom
Well, the Pirates are finally scoring some runs. You have to like what you're seeing from Alvarez this month. McCutchen and Alvarez can be superstars. I think Walker, Jones, Tabata, and Milledge can be solid every-day players. That's a much more promising future than what we're used to seeing. The rest of the guys on the team don't really inspire me at all. Pitching? That's a whole other mess.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
Pedro Alvarez is tearing #### up... Made a good decision to start him this week. Not sure why I did but it certainly has worked out.
Balco
Footballguy
In the same boat. I have Rolen and didn't want to play him this week do to the uncertainty of his injury. Alvarez has been huge for me.His K/BB rate is still scary, but looks like he is starting to make adjustments. Pirates fans have to be happy.
eagles2007
Footballguy
And that's the biggest problem. Don't try to sell me Brad Lincoln. He looks awful. He looks like another Charlie Morton. Talent, but no ability to get major leaguers out. Need Bryan Morris to keep coming at the pace he's at, for Jeff Locke to develop.
Anyone see the rumor of Maholm to the Dodgers for Dee Gordon? I couldn't pull the trigger on that fast enough if I'm the Pirates. Maholm is our best pitcher, but we need two things - a shortstop and pitching. Dee Gordon is going to be really good and would strengthen the Pirates lineup by moving McCutchen to the 3 hole.
monessen
Footballguy
Man, Alvarez is one scary dude out there. Once he gets it figured out with a little more seasoning, there is no telling what the ceiling is on this guy. I think I try to lock him up long-term, along with McCutchen, to send the word that productive young players will be rewarded with a secure contract.
I realize Ely has struggled with the Dodgers, but if the Bucs ship out Maholm (which isn't a great idea given the dearth of starting pitching on the roster and how decent he's been), scouting Ely to see what his pros and cons are seems like a prudent step.
I realize Ely has struggled with the Dodgers, but if the Bucs ship out Maholm (which isn't a great idea given the dearth of starting pitching on the roster and how decent he's been), scouting Ely to see what his pros and cons are seems like a prudent step.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Prospects like Dee Gordon are not dealt for #4 starters like Paul Maholm. I'm sure the Pirates would ASK for Dee Gordon, or maybe an arm like Ethan Martin or Aaron Miller, but I can't imagine the Dodgers would give him up that cheaply.I'd give Brad Lincoln some time to adjust to major league pitching before writing him off. He's not a superstar, but he does have enough talent to get major league hitters out.
The best pitchers in the system are in AA and below. Signing Taillon and Allie would be a huge step in the right direction.
dparker713
Footballguy
Prospects like Carlos Santana are not dealt for someone like Casey Blake, but the same Dodgers front office did just that a mere two years ago.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Point taken, but Carlos Santana wasn't nearly on the level he is now two years ago. He was a promising young catching prospect who'd only really had half of a good season in High A ball at that point, because in 2007 he was mediocre and he played in High A ball until he was traded to the Indians in 2008. The Indians promoted him to AA soon after acquiring, and he's taken off since then.Dee Gordon has already established himself as one of the premier SS prospects in the minors and is having success in AA as a somewhat raw 22 year old. I'd LOVE for the Bucs to get him, but I won't hold my breath on that one.dparker713 said:
dparker713
Footballguy
You're way underrating how highly thought of Santana was at the time of the trade.13th by Keith Law, 26th by Baseball America
From Law:
In 2007, Santana hit .223/.318/.370 in the Midwest League, didn't make Baseball Prospectus' list of the top 11 Dodgers prospects, and didn't crack the top 20 on Baseball America's list. Now, after hitting a combined .330/.435/.569 in high-A -- walking more than he struck out -- he projects as a middle-of-the-order, switch-hitting run producer who, by the way, is a legitimate big league catcher. Santana has a very compact swing and makes a lot of hard contact, but he also has enough strength in his upper body to generate power despite the short swing. Behind the plate, he's a good receiver and has an above-average arm, but needs to work on his game-calling. Given his tremendous control of the strike zone and above-average power, he has very little to do to turn into an average big league catcher, but there's a high probability that he develops into much more.
His take on the trade at the time, "That is a trade the Dodgers will be regretting for a long time." And yes, yes they will.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
What I meant is that entering 2008, Carlos Santana wasn't that highly regarded, and that's why he wasn't one of the top 11 on BP or top 20 on BA's Dodgers list. In the first half of 2008, he tore the cover off the ball in High A and he started moving up lists, but he hadn't even reached AA yet when he was traded in July 2008 and his defense was still a definite question mark. Heck, his defense was a question mark even into 2010. In Gordon's case, he was already the #1 prospect in the Dodgers system entering 2010 and hasn't really done anything in AA this year to cause his status to slide, so I'm doubtful the Pirates will pry away an organization's #1 prospect for a #4 starter.
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