Schlzm
Footballguy
Putin - "I will take over this area and call it part of Russia! What do you have to say about that, Mr. Obama?"
Obama - "I'm taking Michigan St. over Louisville."
Putin - "I will take over this area and call it part of Russia! What do you have to say about that, Mr. Obama?"
Obama - "I'm taking Michigan St. over Louisville."
Does Europe have the infrastructure to receive all this LNG? (serious question, I don't know).It gives us leverage to prevent them from doing it again.Approved facilities can be built in a few years. We have the ability to completely supplant Russia's entire export capacity to Europe by simply approving plans that have been sitting with the Department of Energy for years already.I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be done. Just that it is so far in the future (I think the 2-3 years is wildly optimistic) that it isn't going to have much of an impact if it is used as "sanctions" against Russia.2-3 years. Most of the plans and requests for export facilities have been sitting with the administration for that long already. We should have started on this years ago.Just because we have had our head in the sand doesn't mean we should continue to keep it there.So a good and proper response to Russia, and one that will really hit them where it hurts....is to PLAN to build a bunch of export facilities 3-5 years in the future?I'm gonna differ with you there.You can't currently ship natural gas cheaply to Europe from the US. Sorry, the infrastructure doesn't exist.About this:
There is something we can do.4: Any response we make outside direct military action/movement will be viewed as weak and toothless by most of the world.
One is open the flood of gas production from our country - start supplying as much of Europe and even Ukraine to the hilt and as cheaply as possible, because we, the USA, are the Arabia of natural gas.
Another thing we can do to Russia is Marshall Plan their asses. We need to get together with our EU allies and start bringing that business and aid into Ukraine and Moldova asap. We need to bolster the Baltic states and all our Central European friends. Hell even call Belarus and offer them a deal they can't refuse. If Putin wants to go back to playing economic one-upmanship let's do that because we will drive them back past the Urals doing that.
Frankly maybe the USA has been waiting for just this kind of challenge. Unfortunately I don't think the current administration can even speak this language. Obama laughed at Romney when he described Russia a geopolitical threat.
Interesting background article here, obviously lots of hurdles (mostly within the current administration) though it doesn't really talk about costs.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/03/12/natural-gas-exports-101-beyond-ukraine/
I don't know what the relative cost is exactly, but I think heard on CNN or BBC that the EU was paying something like 8 times what we are. Somewhere in there there is room for added distribution cost. I will add that driving down the cost of gas just from the option of buying cheaper gas, even if just a little will drive down the price of Russian gas and Russian profits. Best case scenario is their market share would be driven way down.
There are a TON of obstacles to building an infrastructure to export a large amount of natural gas to Europe. It's not something that can be done quick enough to have any sort of an effect on what Russia is currently doing today.
I doubt we want to do that, but we our in the middle of a massive natural gas boom. We would have no problem supplying the EU if we chose to do
Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
Does Europe have the infrastructure to receive all this LNG? (serious question, I don't know).It gives us leverage to prevent them from doing it again.Approved facilities can be built in a few years. We have the ability to completely supplant Russia's entire export capacity to Europe by simply approving plans that have been sitting with the Department of Energy for years already.I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be done. Just that it is so far in the future (I think the 2-3 years is wildly optimistic) that it isn't going to have much of an impact if it is used as "sanctions" against Russia.2-3 years. Most of the plans and requests for export facilities have been sitting with the administration for that long already. We should have started on this years ago.Just because we have had our head in the sand doesn't mean we should continue to keep it there.So a good and proper response to Russia, and one that will really hit them where it hurts....is to PLAN to build a bunch of export facilities 3-5 years in the future?I'm gonna differ with you there.You can't currently ship natural gas cheaply to Europe from the US. Sorry, the infrastructure doesn't exist.About this:
There is something we can do.4: Any response we make outside direct military action/movement will be viewed as weak and toothless by most of the world.
One is open the flood of gas production from our country - start supplying as much of Europe and even Ukraine to the hilt and as cheaply as possible, because we, the USA, are the Arabia of natural gas.
Another thing we can do to Russia is Marshall Plan their asses. We need to get together with our EU allies and start bringing that business and aid into Ukraine and Moldova asap. We need to bolster the Baltic states and all our Central European friends. Hell even call Belarus and offer them a deal they can't refuse. If Putin wants to go back to playing economic one-upmanship let's do that because we will drive them back past the Urals doing that.
Frankly maybe the USA has been waiting for just this kind of challenge. Unfortunately I don't think the current administration can even speak this language. Obama laughed at Romney when he described Russia a geopolitical threat.
Interesting background article here, obviously lots of hurdles (mostly within the current administration) though it doesn't really talk about costs.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/03/12/natural-gas-exports-101-beyond-ukraine/
I don't know what the relative cost is exactly, but I think heard on CNN or BBC that the EU was paying something like 8 times what we are. Somewhere in there there is room for added distribution cost. I will add that driving down the cost of gas just from the option of buying cheaper gas, even if just a little will drive down the price of Russian gas and Russian profits. Best case scenario is their market share would be driven way down.
There are a TON of obstacles to building an infrastructure to export a large amount of natural gas to Europe. It's not something that can be done quick enough to have any sort of an effect on what Russia is currently doing today.
I doubt we want to do that, but we our in the middle of a massive natural gas boom. We would have no problem supplying the EU if we chose to do
I think it would be a MASSIVE undertaking to completely supplant Russia, and it would take a ton of effort from the US and from Russia. And this effort wouldn't exactly be "under the radar". If this became the plan, Russia could shut off the gas and leave Europe in a big mess.
Hell yes they can take it.The European gas utilities industry had total revenues of $281.2bn in 2012, representing a compound annual rate of change (CARC) of -4.0% between 2008 and 2012.
They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
Yes. I can't imagine that this plan would ever work. As long as I don't imagine a time longer than 20 years ago.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
But we didn't attempt to destroy their economy during the cold war. We increased trade under every President, even Reagan. They destroyed their own economy.Yes. I can't imagine that this plan would ever work. As long as I don't imagine a time longer than 20 years ago.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
Ukraine's acting president warned Crimea's Kremlin-backed leaders on Wednesday they had only three hours to release the captured head of the splintered ex-Soviet country's navy or face "an adequate response".
Kiev also announced a raft of urgent measures aimed at severing its ties with Moscow that included the withdrawal from a Kremlin-led alliance of 11 nations and the introduction of travel visas for Russians seeking entry into Ukraine.
.....
Germany for its part said it was suspending a major arms with Moscow -- a signal that Washington's EU allies were willing to take more serious punitive steps against the Kremlin despite their heavy dependence on Russian energy supplies.
No, they did it all themselves while we outcompeted them and increased the disparity between them and what we were doing for Europe and the rest of the world with our system.But we didn't attempt to destroy their economy during the cold war. We increased trade under every President, even Reagan. They destroyed their own economy.Yes. I can't imagine that this plan would ever work. As long as I don't imagine a time longer than 20 years ago.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
They also would have an alternative: change.
and for Tim, since he thinks Putin is done..Looks like Ukariane and Germany are stepping up
Ukraine's acting president warned Crimea's Kremlin-backed leaders on Wednesday they had only three hours to release the captured head of the splintered ex-Soviet country's navy or face "an adequate response".
Kiev also announced a raft of urgent measures aimed at severing its ties with Moscow that included the withdrawal from a Kremlin-led alliance of 11 nations and the introduction of travel visas for Russians seeking entry into Ukraine.
.....
Germany for its part said it was suspending a major arms with Moscow -- a signal that Washington's EU allies were willing to take more serious punitive steps against the Kremlin despite their heavy dependence on Russian energy supplies.
The greatest fear facing Kiev's new leaders and the West is that Putin will push huge forces massed along the Ukrainian border into the Russian-speaking southeastern swathes of the country in a self-professed effort to "protect" compatriots he claims are coming under attack from violent ultra-nationalists.
"We are not speaking about military actions in the eastern regions of Ukraine," Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov told the BBC.
"But Russia will do whatever is possible... to protect and to extend a hand of help to Russians living in eastern regions of Ukraine."
Where the hell do you get that? Their alternative would be to be more democratic, respect their neighbors democracies and borders, and to follow the rules of international trade.Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
They also would have an alternative: change.
We can't expand energy exports with our allies because Russia might start a war over it.huh.. all these years I figured WWIII would start in the middle east.. looks like it's going to be Europe again...
Right, but since we just propped all of those countries up as well they can whip up a nice coalition and tell Russia to piss off. Or do you think this new super evil Russian leader is just going to start tossing nukes around? Oh damn, too bad we took our missile defense systems out of the area in an obviously failed attempt to keep Putin from getting all pissy and doing something irrational.SchlzmTheir alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
They also would have an alternative: change.
Hey, sorry, I see what you mean. I don't know, but I take it they are getting nearly everything via pipeline. I agree there could be a cost there.Saints,
I'm talking about the infrastructure to receive LNG from ships, which is altogether different. Do they have the infrastructure to receive all of their natural gas in that form?
They have already asked Obama to remove the export restrictions. They wouldn't have done that unless the have the capacity to receive more.Saints,
I'm talking about the infrastructure to receive LNG from ships, which is altogether different. Do they have the infrastructure to receive all of their natural gas in that form?
And at some point years down the road they get all their energy from Russia, so then who's allies are they, exactly?We can't expand energy exports with our allies because Russia might start a war over it.huh.. all these years I figured WWIII would start in the middle east.. looks like it's going to be Europe again...
... guess what, that's what's happening.who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions to economic woes...
So we cannot respond, even economically, to Putin taking over territory for fear that he would do so more aggressively?Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
They also would have an alternative: change.
Don't fight back against the guy punching you in the face because if you do he'll probably punch you in the face. Timlogic is weird sometimes.SchlzmSo we cannot respond, even economically, to Putin taking over territory for fear that he would do so more aggressively?Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
They also would have an alternative: change.
This is the world we now live in. People are so worried about not wanting to get into another war that they are willing to let leaders do whatever they want without consequences.So we cannot respond, even economically, to Putin taking over territory for fear that he would do so more aggressively?Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.Isn't that what we're supposed to do?Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weaponsHe wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?
They also would have an alternative: change.
I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of the JewsUkraine. No matter how bad HitlerPutinis acting, the JewsUkraineare not good people.
Rampant bigotry aside, what about the rest of the former soviet states? Also drawing a line in the sand holds no weight right now so any threat has to be backed up immediately.SchlzmI freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.
Well, when you say it like that, I agree with Tim.I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of the JewsUkraine. No matter how bad HitlerPutinis acting, the JewsUkraineare not good people.
It's a great distraction from a lot of the mindless crap I have to put up with during the day.Schlzmyou guys sure like to argue with timschochet.
I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.
Tim, you've posted one link from a clearly extremist website as grounds for this, nothing else. Your dislike and distrust of the people and country as a whole and in comparison to Russia is groundless.I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.
He's a thoughtful person unafraid to state his views. The FBG's admins should give him a royalty for driving traffic on FFA, and maybe even let him write a "sleepers" FF article or two so we know who not to draft every year.you guys sure like to argue with timschochet.
Our overseas team is based in Kiev. A few of them came to the States last September and we had a blast. Seem like regular people like you and me. Seriously, if they didn't talk I would not be able to tell if they were Americans or not - that's how normal they seemed.I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.
you guys sure like to argue with timHUCKS.
You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.
In Russia, tim talk's about Russia.I. I . I've . I I've
I, I, I, I
I, me.
Your gal pal mika would disagree with you. She said today that the Ukrainian people are wonderful and caring.I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.
We know he doesn't feel the same way about rapists.You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.
six of one, half dozen of anotherIt's a great distraction from a lot of the mindless crap I have to put up with during the day.Schlzmyou guys sure like to argue with timschochet.
If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.
Oooh, good shot, you got me.We know he doesn't feel the same way about rapists.You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.
I had trading cards of serial killers.If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.
It's a money shot too.Oooh, good shot, you got me.We know he doesn't feel the same way about rapists.You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.
I thought it might be something like this. Ok then you need to back away from pretending to view this objectively.Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.
But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.
That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.