Politics and War in Ukraine (2 Viewers)

[Schlzm]

Putin - "I will take over this area and call it part of Russia! What do you have to say about that, Mr. Obama?"

Obama - "I'm taking Michigan St. over Louisville."

 

[shader]

About this:

4: Any response we make outside direct military action/movement will be viewed as weak and toothless by most of the world.

There is something we can do.

One is open the flood of gas production from our country - start supplying as much of Europe and even Ukraine to the hilt and as cheaply as possible, because we, the USA, are the Arabia of natural gas.

Another thing we can do to Russia is Marshall Plan their asses. We need to get together with our EU allies and start bringing that business and aid into Ukraine and Moldova asap. We need to bolster the Baltic states and all our Central European friends. Hell even call Belarus and offer them a deal they can't refuse. If Putin wants to go back to playing economic one-upmanship let's do that because we will drive them back past the Urals doing that.

Frankly maybe the USA has been waiting for just this kind of challenge. Unfortunately I don't think the current administration can even speak this language. Obama laughed at Romney when he described Russia a geopolitical threat.

You can't currently ship natural gas cheaply to Europe from the US. Sorry, the infrastructure doesn't exist.

I'm gonna differ with you there.

Interesting background article here, obviously lots of hurdles (mostly within the current administration) though it doesn't really talk about costs.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/03/12/natural-gas-exports-101-beyond-ukraine/

I don't know what the relative cost is exactly, but I think heard on CNN or BBC that the EU was paying something like 8 times what we are. Somewhere in there there is room for added distribution cost. I will add that driving down the cost of gas just from the option of buying cheaper gas, even if just a little will drive down the price of Russian gas and Russian profits. Best case scenario is their market share would be driven way down.

So a good and proper response to Russia, and one that will really hit them where it hurts....is to PLAN to build a bunch of export facilities 3-5 years in the future?

There are a TON of obstacles to building an infrastructure to export a large amount of natural gas to Europe. It's not something that can be done quick enough to have any sort of an effect on what Russia is currently doing today.

2-3 years. Most of the plans and requests for export facilities have been sitting with the administration for that long already. We should have started on this years ago.Just because we have had our head in the sand doesn't mean we should continue to keep it there.

I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be done. Just that it is so far in the future (I think the 2-3 years is wildly optimistic) that it isn't going to have much of an impact if it is used as "sanctions" against Russia.

It gives us leverage to prevent them from doing it again.Approved facilities can be built in a few years. We have the ability to completely supplant Russia's entire export capacity to Europe by simply approving plans that have been sitting with the Department of Energy for years already.

I doubt we want to do that, but we our in the middle of a massive natural gas boom. We would have no problem supplying the EU if we chose to do

Does Europe have the infrastructure to receive all this LNG? (serious question, I don't know).

I think it would be a MASSIVE undertaking to completely supplant Russia, and it would take a ton of effort from the US and from Russia. And this effort wouldn't exactly be "under the radar". If this became the plan, Russia could shut off the gas and leave Europe in a big mess.

 

[shader]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

About this:

4: Any response we make outside direct military action/movement will be viewed as weak and toothless by most of the world.

There is something we can do.

One is open the flood of gas production from our country - start supplying as much of Europe and even Ukraine to the hilt and as cheaply as possible, because we, the USA, are the Arabia of natural gas.

Another thing we can do to Russia is Marshall Plan their asses. We need to get together with our EU allies and start bringing that business and aid into Ukraine and Moldova asap. We need to bolster the Baltic states and all our Central European friends. Hell even call Belarus and offer them a deal they can't refuse. If Putin wants to go back to playing economic one-upmanship let's do that because we will drive them back past the Urals doing that.

Frankly maybe the USA has been waiting for just this kind of challenge. Unfortunately I don't think the current administration can even speak this language. Obama laughed at Romney when he described Russia a geopolitical threat.

You can't currently ship natural gas cheaply to Europe from the US. Sorry, the infrastructure doesn't exist.

I'm gonna differ with you there.

Interesting background article here, obviously lots of hurdles (mostly within the current administration) though it doesn't really talk about costs.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/03/12/natural-gas-exports-101-beyond-ukraine/

I don't know what the relative cost is exactly, but I think heard on CNN or BBC that the EU was paying something like 8 times what we are. Somewhere in there there is room for added distribution cost. I will add that driving down the cost of gas just from the option of buying cheaper gas, even if just a little will drive down the price of Russian gas and Russian profits. Best case scenario is their market share would be driven way down.

So a good and proper response to Russia, and one that will really hit them where it hurts....is to PLAN to build a bunch of export facilities 3-5 years in the future?

There are a TON of obstacles to building an infrastructure to export a large amount of natural gas to Europe. It's not something that can be done quick enough to have any sort of an effect on what Russia is currently doing today.

2-3 years. Most of the plans and requests for export facilities have been sitting with the administration for that long already. We should have started on this years ago.Just because we have had our head in the sand doesn't mean we should continue to keep it there.

I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be done. Just that it is so far in the future (I think the 2-3 years is wildly optimistic) that it isn't going to have much of an impact if it is used as "sanctions" against Russia.

It gives us leverage to prevent them from doing it again.Approved facilities can be built in a few years. We have the ability to completely supplant Russia's entire export capacity to Europe by simply approving plans that have been sitting with the Department of Energy for years already.

I doubt we want to do that, but we our in the middle of a massive natural gas boom. We would have no problem supplying the EU if we chose to do

Does Europe have the infrastructure to receive all this LNG? (serious question, I don't know).

I think it would be a MASSIVE undertaking to completely supplant Russia, and it would take a ton of effort from the US and from Russia. And this effort wouldn't exactly be "under the radar". If this became the plan, Russia could shut off the gas and leave Europe in a big mess.

The European gas utilities industry had total revenues of $281.2bn in 2012, representing a compound annual rate of change (CARC) of -4.0% between 2008 and 2012.

Hell yes they can take it.

http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases/new-market-report-gas-utilities-in-europe-432954.htm

Russia is building a $21 billion facility to send gas through Bulgaria to Europe.

http://www.globalenergyworld.com/news/6629/Bulgaria,_Russia_Seal_South_Stream_Gas_Pipeline_Deal.htm

Do you think they think it's worth it?

Here they are moving into Germany in an asset swap with BASF - oh look who Vlad's pecking on the cheek there:

http://www.dw.de/gazprom-intensifies-bid-to-break-into-european-market/a-16384765

At some point Vlad might be yanking strings on energy in Europe - that will not be pretty, in fact that would be a good way to lose the Cold War after we had already won it.

 

[timschochet]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

Yes. I can't imagine that this plan would ever work. As long as I don't imagine a time longer than 20 years ago.

 

[timschochet]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

 

[timschochet]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

Yes. I can't imagine that this plan would ever work. As long as I don't imagine a time longer than 20 years ago.

But we didn't attempt to destroy their economy during the cold war. We increased trade under every President, even Reagan. They destroyed their own economy.

 

[snogger]

Looks like Ukariane and Germany are stepping up

Ukraine's acting president warned Crimea's Kremlin-backed leaders on Wednesday they had only three hours to release the captured head of the splintered ex-Soviet country's navy or face "an adequate response".

Kiev also announced a raft of urgent measures aimed at severing its ties with Moscow that included the withdrawal from a Kremlin-led alliance of 11 nations and the introduction of travel visas for Russians seeking entry into Ukraine.

.....

Germany for its part said it was suspending a major arms with Moscow -- a signal that Washington's EU allies were willing to take more serious punitive steps against the Kremlin despite their heavy dependence on Russian energy supplies.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

Yes. I can't imagine that this plan would ever work. As long as I don't imagine a time longer than 20 years ago.

But we didn't attempt to destroy their economy during the cold war. We increased trade under every President, even Reagan. They destroyed their own economy.

No, they did it all themselves while we outcompeted them and increased the disparity between them and what we were doing for Europe and the rest of the world with our system.

Take a look at the Deustche Weld article further up - right now the EU does not allow extraction, production and distribution to exist all in one entity, but Gazprom would change all that. These guys still don't get it.

 

[timschochet]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.

 

[snogger]

Looks like Ukariane and Germany are stepping up

Ukraine's acting president warned Crimea's Kremlin-backed leaders on Wednesday they had only three hours to release the captured head of the splintered ex-Soviet country's navy or face "an adequate response".

Kiev also announced a raft of urgent measures aimed at severing its ties with Moscow that included the withdrawal from a Kremlin-led alliance of 11 nations and the introduction of travel visas for Russians seeking entry into Ukraine.

.....

Germany for its part said it was suspending a major arms with Moscow -- a signal that Washington's EU allies were willing to take more serious punitive steps against the Kremlin despite their heavy dependence on Russian energy supplies.

and for Tim, since he thinks Putin is done..

The greatest fear facing Kiev's new leaders and the West is that Putin will push huge forces massed along the Ukrainian border into the Russian-speaking southeastern swathes of the country in a self-professed effort to "protect" compatriots he claims are coming under attack from violent ultra-nationalists.

"We are not speaking about military actions in the eastern regions of Ukraine," Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov told the BBC.

"But Russia will do whatever is possible... to protect and to extend a hand of help to Russians living in eastern regions of Ukraine."

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.

Where the hell do you get that? Their alternative would be to be more democratic, respect their neighbors democracies and borders, and to follow the rules of international trade.

As explained further above Putin is not a Hitler, he is slowly becoming unveiled as Miloslevic. Totally different.

Also, it would be worthwhile to point out that Putin has been on this role for quite a while now, he used similar tactics in dismantling voting rights, free speech rights, and ownership rights, beginning but not ending with consolidating state and oligarch control over companies like Gazprom.

 

[Parrothead]

huh.. all these years I figured WWIII would start in the middle east.. looks like it's going to be Europe again...

 

[jonessed]

huh.. all these years I figured WWIII would start in the middle east.. looks like it's going to be Europe again...

We can't expand energy exports with our allies because Russia might start a war over it.

 

[shader]

Saints,

I'm talking about the infrastructure to receive LNG from ships, which is altogether different. Do they have the infrastructure to receive all of their natural gas in that form?

 

[Schlzm]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.

Right, but since we just propped all of those countries up as well they can whip up a nice coalition and tell Russia to piss off. Or do you think this new super evil Russian leader is just going to start tossing nukes around? Oh damn, too bad we took our missile defense systems out of the area in an obviously failed attempt to keep Putin from getting all pissy and doing something irrational.Schlzm

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints,

I'm talking about the infrastructure to receive LNG from ships, which is altogether different. Do they have the infrastructure to receive all of their natural gas in that form?

Hey, sorry, I see what you mean. I don't know, but I take it they are getting nearly everything via pipeline. I agree there could be a cost there.

But if I read that other report right that is at least a $281 billion market per year. Russia is investing $21 bill in Bulgaria in just one place, they are trying to acquire BASF assets in Germany (even though that would give them a vertical monopoly), and we're just trying to get a single $4 bill facility going in MD for gas that our laws do not currently permit exporting. If the companies thought it was a losing proposition they would not be pushing for it.

 

[jonessed]

Saints,

I'm talking about the infrastructure to receive LNG from ships, which is altogether different. Do they have the infrastructure to receive all of their natural gas in that form?

They have already asked Obama to remove the export restrictions. They wouldn't have done that unless the have the capacity to receive more.

If we agree to ramp up our ability to export I imagine they will ramp up their ability to receive it.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

huh.. all these years I figured WWIII would start in the middle east.. looks like it's going to be Europe again...

We can't expand energy exports with our allies because Russia might start a war over it.

And at some point years down the road they get all their energy from Russia, so then who's allies are they, exactly?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

By the way Tim...

who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions to economic woes...

... guess what, that's what's happening.

 

[Slapdash]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.

So we cannot respond, even economically, to Putin taking over territory for fear that he would do so more aggressively?

 

[Schlzm]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.

So we cannot respond, even economically, to Putin taking over territory for fear that he would do so more aggressively?

Don't fight back against the guy punching you in the face because if you do he'll probably punch you in the face. Timlogic is weird sometimes.Schlzm

 

[TheIronSheik]

Has Obama admitted he was wrong about this yet?

He wasn't. Russia is not a geopolitical threat.

Unless you count the 8500 nuclear weapons

They will always have those. Russia will always be able to destroy us if they so choose. It's one reason why war with them is unthinkable, and why it would be extremely dangerous for us to attempt to supplant them economically. I mean, really some of you guys are talking crazy. Destroy Russia's economy? Are you ####### kidding me?

That's a stretch, no one said to destroy Russia's economy. The goal is to elevate their neighbors' economy and give them energy and political independence.

Really? If we follow your logic and attempt to supplant Russia's exports of natural gas, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the Russians, faced with the loss of billions, will say, "Gee, that's capitalism! Guess we lost!" ??

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

They also would have an alternative: change.

Their alternative would be to become more aggressive. Putin would be replaced with someone far worse, a real Hitler type who would see nationalism and military conflict as the only solutions toeconomic woes. And then they really WOULD threaten eastern Europe.

So we cannot respond, even economically, to Putin taking over territory for fear that he would do so more aggressively?

This is the world we now live in. People are so worried about not wanting to get into another war that they are willing to let leaders do whatever they want without consequences.

 

[timschochet]

I didn't say that. We can and should respond exactly how Obama is doing- warn them that this could jeapordize future trade deals, cancel some arms deals, draw a line in the sand at the integrity of Ukraine.

But what we should NOT do is attempt to seriously weaken Russia's trade, nor should we become too married to the leaders of Ukraine- Putin is right, many of them are ultra/ nationalists and not to be trusted.

 

[timschochet]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

 

[Slapdash]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of the Jews Ukraine. No matter how bad Hitler Putin is acting, the Jews Ukraine are not good people.

 

[Schlzm]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

Rampant bigotry aside, what about the rest of the former soviet states? Also drawing a line in the sand holds no weight right now so any threat has to be backed up immediately.Schlzm

 

[TheIronSheik]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of the Jews Ukraine. No matter how bad Hitler Putin is acting, the Jews Ukraine are not good people.

Well, when you say it like that, I agree with Tim.

 

[Fennis]

you guys sure like to argue with timschochet.

 

[Schlzm]

you guys sure like to argue with timschochet.

It's a great distraction from a lot of the mindless crap I have to put up with during the day.Schlzm

 

[shader]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

Tim, you've posted one link from a clearly extremist website as grounds for this, nothing else. Your dislike and distrust of the people and country as a whole and in comparison to Russia is groundless.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

you guys sure like to argue with timschochet.

He's a thoughtful person unafraid to state his views. The FBG's admins should give him a royalty for driving traffic on FFA, and maybe even let him write a "sleepers" FF article or two so we know who not to draft every year.

 

[MaxThreshold]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

Our overseas team is based in Kiev. A few of them came to the States last September and we had a blast. Seem like regular people like you and me. Seriously, if they didn't talk I would not be able to tell if they were Americans or not - that's how normal they seemed.

Did you have an ex-girlfriend from the Ukraine?

 

[drummer]

you guys sure like to argue with timHUCKS.

 

[timschochet]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

 

[mr roboto]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

 

[drummer]

I. I . I've . I I've

I, I, I, I

I, me.

In Russia, tim talk's about Russia.

 

[quickhands]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

Your gal pal mika would disagree with you. She said today that the Ukrainian people are wonderful and caring.

 

[John Bender]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

We know he doesn't feel the same way about rapists.

 

[Fennis]

you guys sure like to argue with timschochet.

It's a great distraction from a lot of the mindless crap I have to put up with during the day.Schlzm

six of one, half dozen of another

 

[timschochet]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.

 

[timschochet]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

We know he doesn't feel the same way about rapists.

Oooh, good shot, you got me.

 

[drummer]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.

I had trading cards of serial killers.

 

[drummer]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

We know he doesn't feel the same way about rapists.

Oooh, good shot, you got me.

It's a money shot too.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

I thought it might be something like this. Ok then you need to back away from pretending to view this objectively.

I do have total respect for your POV on this, I do. Good on ya.

However, you're not being objective at all when looking at this question, this issue, throughout this thread.

And I recognize and respect putting personal animosity first here, it should never, ever be forgotten what happened. But the Russians have a history of pogroms and mass genocide of the Jews about 10 times bigger and longer than the Ukrainians.

At least the Ukrainians are the ones pushing for democracy and freedom now, it's Putin who wants to return to the old days. Just take a look at the way Putin has wrapped himself in the Russian Orthodox church and nationalism.

If this is your underlying ethic, I certainly applaud your loyalty to memory but you are misapplying history here yet again because it is Putin who is looking to that past, not Ukraine.

 

[timschochet]

Saints, as I wrote, I have no love for Putin. But I don't think my dislike for Ukraine is affecting my judgment about this situation except to the extent that it causes me to distrust the Ukraine govt. but I recognize that in this situation, the Russians are the bad guys. I just don't think we should overreact.