BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Of the finalists my choices would be:
Antonio Gates
Devin Hester
Julius Peppers
Ricky Watters
Patrick Willis
Antonio Gates
Devin Hester
Julius Peppers
Ricky Watters
Patrick Willis
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Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024 Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Yogibear
- Start date
-OZ-
Footballguy
Maybe. An argument can be made. I wouldn’t argue against smith making it.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Gates is 100% in. Hester I like to be in as KR. (I think Mitchell should be in also as a KR) Without checking stats, I think Holt, Ward, and S Smith Hines have a chance because they won SBs. A couple of D guys also.
For those saying Cunningham ... 29,00 yards passing (like 60th all time). 56% completion %. So far down it's unfindable. And worst, only 8 times in 17 seasons did he play more than 7 games. Let that sink in. Hard to put a guy that was on IR 50% of the time in the HoF. None of it is overcome by running for 500 yards per season.
For those saying Cunningham ... 29,00 yards passing (like 60th all time). 56% completion %. So far down it's unfindable. And worst, only 8 times in 17 seasons did he play more than 7 games. Let that sink in. Hard to put a guy that was on IR 50% of the time in the HoF. None of it is overcome by running for 500 yards per season.
Yogibear
Footballguy
Another guy you can make a case for is Willie Anderson if for no other reason other than that for every year since 2018, at least one offensive lineman has gotten in. Yes, I know he played for the Bengals his whole career, but he was a finalist last year. I don't know how the committee is going to vote, or who the finalists are and we won't know who the finalists are until next month. All I'm saying is don't be surprised if Willie Anderson makes the Hall of Fame.
Yogibear
Footballguy
I'm watching the list of finalists for the Hall of Fame right now and typing this as the list gets revealed. Here's the list:
Eric Allen
Jared Allen
Willie Anderson
Jahri Evans
Dwight Freeney
Antonio Gates
Rodney Harrison
Devin Hester
Torry Holt
Andre Johnson
Julius Peppers
Fred Taylor
Reggie Wayne
Patrick Willis
Darren Woodson
Keep in mind that Buddy Parker is the Coach/Contributor Finalist, and Randy Gradishar, Steve McMichael & Art Powell are the Senior Finalists. Out of the list of 15 finalists, who do you think will make up the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024?
Eric Allen
Jared Allen
Willie Anderson
Jahri Evans
Dwight Freeney
Antonio Gates
Rodney Harrison
Devin Hester
Torry Holt
Andre Johnson
Julius Peppers
Fred Taylor
Reggie Wayne
Patrick Willis
Darren Woodson
Keep in mind that Buddy Parker is the Coach/Contributor Finalist, and Randy Gradishar, Steve McMichael & Art Powell are the Senior Finalists. Out of the list of 15 finalists, who do you think will make up the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
As a basis for comparison . . . PFR HOF Monitor scores:
Julius Peppers - 120.25 (8th ranked DE)
Antonio Gates - 114.13 (5th ranked TE)
Patrick Willis - 110.60 (7th ranked ILB)
Reggie Wayne - 109.64 (11th ranked WR)
Torry Holt - 107.72 (13th ranked WR)
Jahri Evans - 96.25 (9th ranked G)
Andre Johnson - 94.41 (19th ranked WR)
Dwight Freeney - 87.05 (14th ranked DE)
Jared Allen - 71.65 (21st ranked DE)
Darren Woodson - 65.83 (44th ranked DB)
Eric Allen - 60.95 (53rd ranked DB)
Willie Anderson - 60.53 (29th ranked OT)
Fred Taylor - 53.90 (37th ranked RB)
Devin Hester - 50.90 (68th ranked WR)
Rodney Harrison - 47.78 (74th ranked DB)
The average score for HOFers varies by position but is typically around 100.00.
Julius Peppers - 120.25 (8th ranked DE)
Antonio Gates - 114.13 (5th ranked TE)
Patrick Willis - 110.60 (7th ranked ILB)
Reggie Wayne - 109.64 (11th ranked WR)
Torry Holt - 107.72 (13th ranked WR)
Jahri Evans - 96.25 (9th ranked G)
Andre Johnson - 94.41 (19th ranked WR)
Dwight Freeney - 87.05 (14th ranked DE)
Jared Allen - 71.65 (21st ranked DE)
Darren Woodson - 65.83 (44th ranked DB)
Eric Allen - 60.95 (53rd ranked DB)
Willie Anderson - 60.53 (29th ranked OT)
Fred Taylor - 53.90 (37th ranked RB)
Devin Hester - 50.90 (68th ranked WR)
Rodney Harrison - 47.78 (74th ranked DB)
The average score for HOFers varies by position but is typically around 100.00.
Tau837
Footballguy
Ward is one of the most overrated players in the modern era of the NFL. He was very good. He was not HOF level.
Tau837
Footballguy
Only 5 modern era finalists can be selected.
Tau837
Footballguy
My vote for modern era finalists:
TE Gates - no-brainer
WR Holt - IMO clearly more worthy than Wayne and Johnson
LB Willis - in 7 mostly healthy seasons, made 7 Pro Bowls, 1 2nd team All Pro team, and 5 1st team All Pro teams... stud
S Woodson - long overdue
S Harrison - long overdue
I think Peppers is definitely worthy, but would have him wait a year in favor of this group.
To put Hester in the HOF over any other players on this finalist list is a complete joke. I hope it does not happen.
TE Gates - no-brainer
WR Holt - IMO clearly more worthy than Wayne and Johnson
LB Willis - in 7 mostly healthy seasons, made 7 Pro Bowls, 1 2nd team All Pro team, and 5 1st team All Pro teams... stud
S Woodson - long overdue
S Harrison - long overdue
I think Peppers is definitely worthy, but would have him wait a year in favor of this group.
To put Hester in the HOF over any other players on this finalist list is a complete joke. I hope it does not happen.
Blick
Footballguy
You could be right, but then Wayne, Holt, and Johnson aren't HOF worthy either.
grateful zed
Footballguy
anticipation.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Feel free to disagree with the formula and methodology, but here are the list of non-HOF WRs rated higher than Ward in terms of PFR HOF Monitor Score.
Larry Fitzgerald 141.09
Reggie Wayne 109.64
Julio Jones 107.97
Torry Holt 107.72
Antonio Brown 104.48
Steve Smith 99.41
Andre Johnson 94.41
Del Shofner 84.75
Henry Ellard 84.30
Harold Jackson 81.24
Anquan Boldin 80.52
Hines Ward 75.17
After this season is over, Ward should also be passed by Tyreek Hill (currently at 70.78). Hope is not lost for Ward, as 7 WR with lower scores have been inducted. But many of the receivers on this list will likely get more consideration than Ward will.
Tau837
Footballguy
I personally think Wayne and Johnson are below the cut line for HOF, but Holt is worthy. Holt blows Ward away as a receiver. It's not even close.
Holt >> Wayne > Johnson > Ward
Tau837
Footballguy
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Why is Mike Evans’ score so low?
Bluesbomber
Footballguy
Devin Hester influenced how modern football was played and influenced any game he played as a return specialist. The Bears mis managed that talent to get more bang for the buck and lessened his legacy IMO.
Devin Hester definatly deserves to be in the Hall of Fame due to the modern era's specialization. He is only possibly behind Deon Sanders and Gale Sayers as a return man and maybe White Shoes. Game changer and influencer as a specialist...if he was a Niner, Steeler or Packer he would have set records in a Ruthian style IMHO...Go Bears...
Devin Hester definatly deserves to be in the Hall of Fame due to the modern era's specialization. He is only possibly behind Deon Sanders and Gale Sayers as a return man and maybe White Shoes. Game changer and influencer as a specialist...if he was a Niner, Steeler or Packer he would have set records in a Ruthian style IMHO...Go Bears...
Boston
Footballguy
BB on Rodney Harrison:
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profo...rodney-harrison-deserves-spot-in-hall-of-fame
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profo...rodney-harrison-deserves-spot-in-hall-of-fame
Then Gates, Peppers, Allen, Harrison, and Willis.
I don't see where Randall came into this discussion. This appears to be a reply.
He was as dominant a one man army as the NFL has ever seen.
Four times per season, he went against two Ds that won Superbowls more than once, and the Bears and the 49ers. The NFC had all time great teams in the 80s and we would read about how this famous guy or that famous guy was concerned about Randall.
His FB was his best back and his TE his best target. It was the Randall show like some years when it was the Barry show.
Philly got a great D and coaches were absolutely POd on the sideline that they were stopped and Randall was getting the ball again.
Three downs, get a stop, phew...not so fast. He's staying in the field to punt or maybe he'll pass. He was an excellent punter in college and pretty darn good in the NFL. This was difficult for defenses too and a cool chance for announcers to show clips of old timey footage when star athletes did also punt.
He always threw a pretty bomb and had a nice lob only the TE could catch. There was a large gap in stellar production but Buddy Ryan ruined careers so it's not that surprising- in Minnesota he was suddenly a stud again but as a pocket passer.
Did I mention he was black? Because this IS around Doug Williams and Warren Moon's time and he never gets the race changing viewpoint(no idea how to word that) credit that those black QBs do.
He's a no doubt best ever type player. Is he a hall of famer? I don't know that he has the stats they like and that's not his fault either- which running QB in the hall are they even comparing him too? But like some Chiefs RBs and Broncos RBs and Sterling Sharpe and...psssh you're not going to discredit their impact on the game all ya can do is discuss longevity or stats to hurt them.
I've never heard of a WR blocking close to as well as Hines Ward. 99% of games they don't even mention how key a WRs blocks are to the run game. That won't show up in stats and it's a shame because it would help with almost every WR in college learning to take more pride in it.
San Diego had one of the best defenses and they had about two players- Seau and Harrison. They had a top corner for a bit too. Someone will inevitably name some other guy but...I swear it was a two or three man D most Sundays.
Harrison laid big hits as good as anyone in history and those players who emulated him are probably why we're discussing hits this way or that way on defenseless WRs. His highlights are like a cartoon.
Andre Johnson is going to always be "punished" for playing for an awful team and the lesser stats because he had to catch the ball with everyone knowing it's coming to him. Calvin was better, no doubt, but Andre had Calvin like days where the Texans shouldn't be winning or even in the game, but he's somehow catching passes to keep them in it. He was tough as nails too. He took so many big shots, likely as teams tried to knock him out of the game, and he would shake off so many of them just like tough RBs do.
If any of these three gotta wait a few years because people are weird about stats being the be all or the hits illegal now or somesuch then fine, but they're all getting in someday.
San Diego had one of the best defenses and they had about two players- Seau and Harrison. They had a top corner for a bit too. Someone will inevitably name some other guy but...I swear it was a two or three man D most Sundays.
Harrison laid big hits as good as anyone in history and those players who emulated him are probably why we're discussing hits this way or that way on defenseless WRs. His highlights are like a cartoon.
Andre Johnson is going to always be "punished" for playing for an awful team and the lesser stats because he had to catch the ball with everyone knowing it's coming to him. Calvin was better, no doubt, but Andre had Calvin like days where the Texans shouldn't be winning or even in the game, but he's somehow catching passes to keep them in it. He was tough as nails too. He took so many big shots, likely as teams tried to knock him out of the game, and he would shake off so many of them just like tough RBs do.
If any of these three gotta wait a few years because people are weird about stats being the be all or the hits illegal now or somesuch then fine, but they're all getting in someday.
gucci little piggy
Footballguy
I hope Andre gets in, he was one my favorite WRs to watch.
I also just want to add that I don't understand how Fred Taylor makes it as a finalist over Tiki. For what it's worth, I think neither belongs in the HOF, but Tiki is 100% more deserving than Freddy. Fred Taylor's best year in yards-from-scrimmage would only be Tiki's 5th best season. Tiki's 3-year peak from 04-06 was absurdly good, as good as any RB in the league...I think he just gets overlooked a bit because he didn't have the huge TD numbers that guys like Tomlinson, Alexander and Holmes would put up. I never felt like Fred Taylor was in that same best-RB in the league class.
I also just want to add that I don't understand how Fred Taylor makes it as a finalist over Tiki. For what it's worth, I think neither belongs in the HOF, but Tiki is 100% more deserving than Freddy. Fred Taylor's best year in yards-from-scrimmage would only be Tiki's 5th best season. Tiki's 3-year peak from 04-06 was absurdly good, as good as any RB in the league...I think he just gets overlooked a bit because he didn't have the huge TD numbers that guys like Tomlinson, Alexander and Holmes would put up. I never felt like Fred Taylor was in that same best-RB in the league class.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Rod Smith of the Broncos was consistently lauded for his blocking in the late 90s/early 00s, but in the case of Ward, it often felt like some throwing that on to the fire to try and convince us he was a top WR when he never really was (ZERO All-Pro 1st teams for him), almost like, "his numbers don't touch those of TO, Marvin or Randy, but what about his blocking?!"
Yogibear
Footballguy
Well, we've only got one day until NFL Honors. I've been going back and forth in my mind about who the 5 Modern-Era inductees should be, and here's what I came up with:
Locks: Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers
I'm thinking that 2 of the 3 Wide Receivers should go in this year, so I'm giving the nod to Andre Johnson & Torry Holt.
The other spot comes down to one of the 2 offensive lineman that are finalists, so I'm going to go Jahri Evans.
Other inductees will include: Senior Finalists Randy Gradishar, Steve McMichael and Art Powell; Coach/Contributor Finalist Buddy Parker
Locks: Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers
I'm thinking that 2 of the 3 Wide Receivers should go in this year, so I'm giving the nod to Andre Johnson & Torry Holt.
The other spot comes down to one of the 2 offensive lineman that are finalists, so I'm going to go Jahri Evans.
Other inductees will include: Senior Finalists Randy Gradishar, Steve McMichael and Art Powell; Coach/Contributor Finalist Buddy Parker
EBF
Footballguy
I think Andre Johnson was a more talented WR than Holt or Wayne, though all were great. As another poster said, he had the misfortune of being stuck on bad teams with bad QBs for most of his NFL career. What would his numbers have looked like playing with Manning or Warner?
You can make a strong case for all three of them eventually getting in, but if I can draft one of them for my all-time team, I think Andre presents the toughest matchup for the opposing team and is closest to TO/Moss/Julio level. Make no mistake, Wayne and Holt were elite though.
Ward...not a Hall of Famer. Not even the biggest cusp guy of that era. Chad Johnson made his personality such a spectacle that his football accomplishments almost took a backseat to the WWE-like persona. He had 6 straight 1k+ yard seasons and 7/8 total in his prime. He was a better receiver than Ward. Maybe Ward was a better blocker and locker room guy, but he wasn't a special pass catcher.
Fred Taylor...not a HoFer. Come on. There were many better backs in that era. Might as well put Ricky Williams and Shaun Alexander in.
Hester is a tricky one. If we're going to really value the KR/PR role then he has to get in eventually because he was legendary in that niche.
You can make a strong case for all three of them eventually getting in, but if I can draft one of them for my all-time team, I think Andre presents the toughest matchup for the opposing team and is closest to TO/Moss/Julio level. Make no mistake, Wayne and Holt were elite though.
Ward...not a Hall of Famer. Not even the biggest cusp guy of that era. Chad Johnson made his personality such a spectacle that his football accomplishments almost took a backseat to the WWE-like persona. He had 6 straight 1k+ yard seasons and 7/8 total in his prime. He was a better receiver than Ward. Maybe Ward was a better blocker and locker room guy, but he wasn't a special pass catcher.
Fred Taylor...not a HoFer. Come on. There were many better backs in that era. Might as well put Ricky Williams and Shaun Alexander in.
Hester is a tricky one. If we're going to really value the KR/PR role then he has to get in eventually because he was legendary in that niche.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I like your list.
Gates, while a personal favorite, was pretty inconsistent over the course of his career. He had a few epic seasons and a lot of above average ones. Never had 100 receptions. Only broke 1K yards twice. Injured in 5 seasons.
I don’t think he’s quite there, but he may make it. Unsure.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There have been 25 players that have scored 100 TD. The only one that will struggle to get into the HOF is Shaun Alexander. Gates scored 116 times. That’s 23 more than Gronk. I don’t see how Gates doesn’t get in at some point.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The bolded is key. I don’t know if he’s a 1st ballot.
I agree he’ll likely get in. Hate to say it, but it would probably help if he had a ring.
Do you think Gronk is HOF-worthy? I’m more interested in how he stacks up against TGonz, who is in the HOF.
He had 5 more TD, but trails TGonz by ~4200 receiving yards & a whopping 370 receptions. TGonz only missed 1 game his entire career, while Gates was frequently dinged up. He only started 18 games over his last 4 years combined. He scored 17 TD in that span - the Bettis of TEs. Heh
Gates is a 1st ballot Hall of Really Good. He’ll probably get in on the TDs, but I’d understand if he doesn’t go in this class
GregR
Footballguy
Here are the quarterbacks that Andre Johnson had throwing him the ball in his 12 seasons in Houston: David Carr, Tony Banks, Dave Ragone, Matt Schaub, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Case Keenum, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Ryan Mallett.
There were only 2 QB Pro Bowl seasons, both from Schaub. And despite that collection of never-was QBs he spent a couple of seasons regarded as the best receiver in the league.
His TD totals in particular were hurt by the QB play. I have quite a few old Texans games that I'll watch during the offseason when sports are slow. The sheer number of times he beat everyone on the defense by several yards but had to stop (not slow down, literally stop) and wait for Schaub's pass because Schaub couldn't throw it deep, resulting in the defense catching up to him by the time the ball got there, really stood out at the time, and I see it time and again watching those old games now.
When it comes to his very best seasons, Johnson's rarified seasons were on par with Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison. Not that he was as good as Rice or had as good of a career, but AJ put up those rarified totals similarly.
Johnson had five seasons with at least 100 catches. That’s one more than Rice and Marvin Harrison and two more than Cris Carter and Randy Moss.
Johnson had three seasons with 1,500 receiving yards, which is tied with Harrison and one behind Rice.
And Johnson had three seasons with at least 100 catches and 1,500 receiving yards, which is tied with Harrison and one more than Rice.
I'm absolutely a homer stumping for a first Texan to go into the Hall, I will admit. But he was the best receiver in football for a stretch, and was a top one for most of his career despite playing most of it with subpar quarterbacking.
There were only 2 QB Pro Bowl seasons, both from Schaub. And despite that collection of never-was QBs he spent a couple of seasons regarded as the best receiver in the league.
His TD totals in particular were hurt by the QB play. I have quite a few old Texans games that I'll watch during the offseason when sports are slow. The sheer number of times he beat everyone on the defense by several yards but had to stop (not slow down, literally stop) and wait for Schaub's pass because Schaub couldn't throw it deep, resulting in the defense catching up to him by the time the ball got there, really stood out at the time, and I see it time and again watching those old games now.
When it comes to his very best seasons, Johnson's rarified seasons were on par with Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison. Not that he was as good as Rice or had as good of a career, but AJ put up those rarified totals similarly.
Johnson had five seasons with at least 100 catches. That’s one more than Rice and Marvin Harrison and two more than Cris Carter and Randy Moss.
Johnson had three seasons with 1,500 receiving yards, which is tied with Harrison and one behind Rice.
And Johnson had three seasons with at least 100 catches and 1,500 receiving yards, which is tied with Harrison and one more than Rice.
I'm absolutely a homer stumping for a first Texan to go into the Hall, I will admit. But he was the best receiver in football for a stretch, and was a top one for most of his career despite playing most of it with subpar quarterbacking.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He’s got a solid case.
The only chinks in that armor are
• Texans defenses were pretty spotty, and he was in a lot of high scoring games
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
Please note, I think he’s one of the best WR to ever play and I’m right there with you stumping for him.
But it makes it tricky to compare him to some of his contemporaries.
Tau837
Footballguy
This take on Gates is one of the worst I have read in this forum in quite some time. He is a slam dunk 1st ballot HOFer. There is no question about it.
“I don’t think he’s quite there.” LMFAO
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
You’re welcome.
I spelled it out pretty well in my follow-up post.
If that’s the worst take you’ve read, then you haven’t read much of this forum.
Go look at TGonz numbers and get back to me. Gates has TDs. His receptions, yards, and availability all pale in comparison.
GregR
Footballguy
He was clearly the Texans best weapon by far, but his targets are not all that dissimilar to what Holt and Wayne got despite playing in offenses with more stars, and with vastly superior QBs. Holt was basically even with him, with Wayne a little behind both.
For example, top five target seasons for each player
AJ: 181, 171, 171, 163, 162 = 848
Holt: 183, 179, 163, 160, 149 = 834
Wayne: 195, 175, 156, 149, 137 = 812
AJ: 1739 in 197 games = 8.8 targets/game
Holt: 1560 in 173 games = 9.0 targets/game
Wayne: 1714 in 211 games = 8.1 targets/game
The most Andre had to keep defenses from focusing solely on him was 4 good season from Arian Foster. His best #2 receiver was Kevin Walter who was on par with the Rams #3 WR Az-Zahir Hakim at best.
Holt had Marshall Faulk and Isaac Bruce keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
Wayne had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
So targets are fairly close, but Andre had to do what he did with far worse QB play and with defense more often focusing on him.
Really the only thing I think Wayne and Holt have over Andre Johnson's on field play, is rings. But then they played on teams that the Texans could barely even compare to. Texans only had one season you could even start to compare to those Rams and Colts teams overall. And that season which looked to be heading towards a #1 seed in the AFC, was brought to a screeching halt by Albert Haynesworth taking out Matt Schaub's foot in a pile.
Tau837
Footballguy
I read your posts before I responded. I stand by my take. The more you post about this, the worse you look, so by all means, carry on.
Tau837
Footballguy
With all due respect, IMO this is not compelling. If this is his best HOF case, IMO he is not a HOFer.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Cool.
Thanks for the insults. We can disagree over whether he’s 1st ballot without being rude. Shame you went there. I used to like you.
Have a nice evening.
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GregR
Footballguy
Someone said Andre Johnson "was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind". I posted the stats which refute that since he had similar targets to his contemporaries.
That's all.
I'm shuked how anyone could interpret that as having been "his best HOF case" instead of a response to a single comment. Which was quoted so the context was completely clear.
Tau837
Footballguy
I didn't post any insults, I simply reacted to two of your posts... that's what we do here. And I couldn't care less about whether or not you like me.
Tau837
Footballguy
We are posting in a HOF thread, and this splinter of the thread came from discussion about whether or not Johnson is HOF worthy. You posted target data but also posted about the quality of his QB play and teammates and posted comments about "the only thing Wayne and Holt have" over Johnson.
Taken all together, it seemed like you were commenting on Johnson's HOF worthiness, not just target stats.
Bozeman Bruiser
Footballguy
You obviously have not read much of my material the last few seasons.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Silly me, saying I had “one of the worst takes” you’ve seen here felt a little insulting.
Especially since you didn’t bother to take the time to actually refute any of my points. And since I was just saying he’s not 1st ballot, we only disagree on whether he gets in this year or later.
Have a nice day.
GregR
Footballguy
We are posting in a HOF thread, and this splinter of the thread came from discussion about whether or not Johnson is HOF worthy. You posted target data but also posted about the quality of his QB play and teammates and posted comments about "the only thing Wayne and Holt have" over Johnson.
Taken all together, it seemed like you were commenting on Johnson's HOF worthiness, not just target stats.
I did comment on his HOF worthiness. But calling it his "best HOF case" , and then claiming that supports a stance of he isn't HOF material, was a total straw man. Let's have better discussion than doing that.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Seems like a big ask.
Tau837
Footballguy
We are posting in a HOF thread, and this splinter of the thread came from discussion about whether or not Johnson is HOF worthy. You posted target data but also posted about the quality of his QB play and teammates and posted comments about "the only thing Wayne and Holt have" over Johnson.
Taken all together, it seemed like you were commenting on Johnson's HOF worthiness, not just target stats.
I did comment on his HOF worthiness. But calling it his "best HOF case" , and then claiming that supports a stance of he isn't HOF material, was a total straw man. Let's have better discussion than doing that.
I viewed your post as advocating for Johnson's HOF case. If that wasn't your intent, okay. Regardless, I accept that you weren't attempting to summarize his "best HOF case," so I should have worded it differently. Fair enough.
To be clear about my opinion, IMO Johnson is not HOF worthy and Holt is. YMMV.
Tau837
Footballguy
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Tau837
Footballguy
IMO it is one of the worst takes I have read here about HOF worthiness, so I wrote that opinion. I assume that should be obvious, i.e., that is me posting my opinion. I didn't insult you. For example, I didn't say you are stupid, you don't know football, you are a bad poster, etc. Those would be insults. I didn't write any of those things because I don't think any of those things about you.
It wasn't worth my time to refute your points. You have chosen to live on that island, and that is your choice to make. You are entitled to your opinion, it's fine, I don't have any issues with you. Frankly, I'm surprised at your reaction.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
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