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QB Daniel Jones, NYG (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Interseptopus
- Start date
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Credit where due. Jones played today like I defended him for years before I gave up on him packaged him for a 2023 1st.
Wish I’d held onto him 1 more year.
Wish I’d held onto him 1 more year.
The Frankman
Footballguy
You got a 2023 1st. You won. 
Likewise, I give credit where it's due; Daniel Jones is on a good stretch right now. However I'd imagine a 2023 1st has the potential to be elite, which is more than I can say about Daniel Jones. I have changed my opinion of him and think he can top out as solid game mangaer now as long as he improves his accuracy, keeps the TOs low and they keep him running the ball. I still have a heart attack on his one-read throws and you worry about what happens when teams take away Saquon/Giants D falters, but right now he's in a nice comfort zone.
Likewise, I give credit where it's due; Daniel Jones is on a good stretch right now. However I'd imagine a 2023 1st has the potential to be elite, which is more than I can say about Daniel Jones. I have changed my opinion of him and think he can top out as solid game mangaer now as long as he improves his accuracy, keeps the TOs low and they keep him running the ball. I still have a heart attack on his one-read throws and you worry about what happens when teams take away Saquon/Giants D falters, but right now he's in a nice comfort zone.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m starting to question that. His mobility makes him a cheat code FF QB, and it sure looks like the Giants will commit to him for next year at least.You got a 2023 1st. You won.
In superflex it feels more like I should have held him.
The pick turned out to be 1.04, so at least there’s that. They got Engram in the package, too.
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TampaMike19
Footballguy
The playoff hype might push his ADP next year to no value at all. But I'd like to have him on all teams if the price is right. It probably will be
Have to eat some crow, he looked pretty good. Maybe he truly has turned a corner. I’d expect he’s played himself out of a shorter prove-it extension to a long-term bigger money extension.
A trade for a Hopkins or maybe Cooks (since he’s likely quite a bit cheaper) to get a vet WR to help out seems like a potential step forward to take the offense to the next level.
A trade for a Hopkins or maybe Cooks (since he’s likely quite a bit cheaper) to get a vet WR to help out seems like a potential step forward to take the offense to the next level.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
So early last Spring did a start up dynasty league where I drafted Brady and like a week later he retires. In a panic move, I trade Brady and A-Rob for Daniel Jones and a 3rd in 2023. At the time, didn't feel good, and when Brady comes back, I just wanted to punch myself in the balls for being so dumb. Who would have thought at that moment in time Jones ends up with a MUCH better season than Brady and A-Rob one of the biggest free agent busts?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I’m in the local market so I’ve seen Jones for years - yesterday was the best he’s ever looked.
Daniel says he has played better because of the support he gets from the players around him. HE makes those players better. The Giants are playing well with receivers that no other teams wanted. HE makes those players better. Sign him,The Giants have a QB,address other needs in the draft
zamboni
Footballguy
Amazing when a local team puts the right coaching staff in place to redirect/harness talent, huh? Not like we have any perception from the other side of the stadium.
He's looked good all year and great the last few weeks
Jones has been one of, if not the most accurate QBs i've seen all year.
He's doing this while having a questionable Oline (PFF Ranked the 31st of 32 after week 14) and throwing to Slayton (5th Rd - Giants nearly waived him), Hodgins (6th Rd - Bills Practice Squad) and James (7th Rd - Waived by 49ers)
Compare that to some other QB Targets ...
(AJ Brown, Devonte Smith) (Oline - PFF Ranked the 1st of 32 after week 14)
(Tyreek Hill, Waddle)
(Chase, Higgins)
(Diggs, Davis)
(Jefferson, Thielen)
(Metcalf , Lockett)
FairWarning
Footballguy
The entire offense looked great.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Vikings defense has that effect.
The Giants line is better, their receivers aren't, and Saquan found his way again....still there have been so many games this year that were "hey look at you Daniel."
Yesterday was the biggest.
It's so interesting how he was about to be a career backup then the switch came on or somesuch.
I might like their lesser WRs if I played QB. Slayton has never been allowed to continue to play well. He always covered an injury well then back to 4th 5th WR. So many others are all hustle and effort.
Golladay wasn't playing because (insert whatever other reasons) they were outworking him.
Bellinger is a good typical TE that's a rookie. The guy takes shots and hangs onto the ball and blocks pretty well and gets knocked down too....but he gives it back to the defender. He's like a learning tough guy, I enjoy watching him. What happens when he figures out how to play the game without being consumed by hitting or getting hit? He may just be a player for dynasty.
They probably only go as far as Saquan carries them but...Daniel Jones deserves a lot of love. He's throwing to like five UDFAs every week and still succeeding.
Yesterday was the biggest.
It's so interesting how he was about to be a career backup then the switch came on or somesuch.
I might like their lesser WRs if I played QB. Slayton has never been allowed to continue to play well. He always covered an injury well then back to 4th 5th WR. So many others are all hustle and effort.
Golladay wasn't playing because (insert whatever other reasons) they were outworking him.
Bellinger is a good typical TE that's a rookie. The guy takes shots and hangs onto the ball and blocks pretty well and gets knocked down too....but he gives it back to the defender. He's like a learning tough guy, I enjoy watching him. What happens when he figures out how to play the game without being consumed by hitting or getting hit? He may just be a player for dynasty.
They probably only go as far as Saquan carries them but...Daniel Jones deserves a lot of love. He's throwing to like five UDFAs every week and still succeeding.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
How Daniel Jones went from punchline to potential cornerstone for the Giants
What changed in New York to put the Giants in the playoffs, and Jones on the brink of a new contract
www.sbnation.com
I gotta say, I think these QBs in the 2023 class were overhyped, and now perception is coming back down to earth.You got a 2023 1st. You won.
Likewise, I give credit where it's due; Daniel Jones is on a good stretch right now. However I'd imagine a 2023 1st has the potential to be elite, which is more than I can say about Daniel Jones. I have changed my opinion of him and think he can top out as solid game mangaer now as long as he improves his accuracy, keeps the TOs low and they keep him running the ball. I still have a heart attack on his one-read throws and you worry about what happens when teams take away Saquon/Giants D falters, but right now he's in a nice comfort zone.
Levis will turn into Jones if he's lucky, approximately. I do think Levis has a better chance to succeed than like Richardson, but he doesn't have his ceiling obviously.
Stroud I think has the best chance to succeed and probably best upside, outside of Richardson.
Richardson has all the tools, but he just seems like a terrible quarterback, like at playing the position. I don't see the Josh Allen comparisons or Fields or Lance or Lemar, or whomever they are comparing him to this week. He didn't seem like he'd be a very good QB in college, I can't imagine it getting better in the NFL. But if he did put it together, he probably does have the physical tools to be the best QB of the class. I just hate his chances. I just don't think he has the mental game to be an NFL Qb, or really, barely a college QB. His athleticism and tools are what made him semi-successful in college, not his QB mind. And it will only get more difficult in the NFL.
Young gives me Manziel/Baker Mayfield vibes. While he definitely has the talent and ability, he's shorter than those two and he's very slight. Sure, he can definitely succeed, but I am staying far away from him. He will cost way too high a pick in most leagues I think relative to his chances of actually succeeding and staying on the field. He looks like a few hits and he'd be KO'd. He's going to have to put on a lot of muscle. And then he still has a height issue. But I don't know, the things people are saying, the way they are talking about him, it just reminds me too much of Manziel/Baker and I'll let someone else spend a high to mid 1st round pick on him in dynasty rookie drafts. Stroud to me is the top QB in this class. Hands down.
I actually think Hooker might be one of the best values in the draft. He will prob be available late, partly due to injury, and I think he has some talent and could be one of those mid round QB surprises.
McKee, I'm not sure of really, but a lot will depend on draft capital.
But I don't actually think any of these QBs will necessarily be better than what Jones is turning into. Jones has a heck of an arm and he's probably the 5th best rushing QB in the league right now. In terms of fantasy, he was a borderline QB 1, finished 13th overall in my league at least. And I don't think any of this years QBs are guaranteed to surpass him.
Even if Stroud or Richardson works out, they might end up only being as good as Jones. Of course they could be better. But I'll take the now proven commodity. What he did in the Wildcard game was great. He had ice in his veins and he really showed his abilities. They finally cut him loose throwing the ball and he did it beautifully, with a very subpar WR corp. If they had a high end WR, instead of wasting high picks on like Toney or Wandale, and they give him that real deal WR1 weapon, I think he goes off next year. Like I'd be very happy if they ended up with Josh Downs, as they likely won't be able to draft any of the top 3 WR prospects where they will be drafting. I would probably also be ok with Mayer as I think he can be a stud in the NFL. As much as I liked Bellinger this year, Mayer is on another level. All though he might not have Barkley, so that could hurt him if their Oline doesn't protect.
Really, I think the Giants OLine was so bad his first few seasons, that it really never gave him time to succeed.
And if they do lose Barkley, they might actually end up depending on his arm more.
I don't know, right now, I'd be quite happy in a 12-16 team league with Jones as my WR1. In a 12 team he'd be towards the back end, but with improvement this upcoming season he could easily move up into the mid tier of QB1. Obviously a terrific QB2 , as backup or in superflex.
Right now, I would only trade Jones for the 1.01 or 1.02. Where I am guaranteed Bijan or Gibbs. But in dynasty, I'm not risking moving him for Young or Richardson or any of the other RBs or WRs, unless I have another QB 1 on hand.
And right now, as a Giants fan, I'm quite happy with him as our QB. And I regret everything I said prematurely when they drafted him. All though, I still think they could have traded down in that draft and still ended up with him.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Well, credit where due because I remember you defending him in years prior almost ad nauseum. Now your analysis seems to have turned a corner and you're left with the shorter end of that stick. That you threw in Engram makes it even tougher.
Despite our disagreement the other night, I feel for you. That sucks.
I also believed Jones had it -- I just never really had to take action on it nor was it relevant to my dynasty teams, nor did I really say anything, so I won't victory lap. I almost inquired about him once, but backed off when his year (2021) turned out even worse than I'd imagined. I was just as prone as you to giving up on him. It was the prudent thing to do, really. Both he and Engram. Who could have predicted?
zamboni
Footballguy
The big X factor seems to be Brian Daboll. With another coach, perhaps Jones is looking at a backup role somewhere next year. I think Daboll is that good - really wish the Jets had gone all in on him a few years ago.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
1.04 isn’t the worst consolation prize, but I coulda used a viable QB more.
But thank you. I was on an island defending the dude. I defended Engram as a Giant plenty of times too.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t see how anyone can possibly say this until landing spot is known, and until we’ve seen them play at the NFL level.
Young & Stroud are each appropriately hyped imo. I’ve seen a ton of both of them, and they’re likely to both go top 4 in the NFL.
I fail to see how that’s overhyped. One’s a Heisman winner, and the other might win it this year.
Daniel Jones had a good year in part by being limited - Barkley’s healthy return absolutely helped Jones by taking a ton of pressure off, and Dabol used him well.
Maybe he’s worth 2 late 1sts in SF, but I probably wouldn’t pay that for him. As mentioned, the pick I spent ended up being the 1.04, and that feels pretty appropriate. At the time I sold him, most would say I got the better of the deal.
I’ll be interested to see how he does against the Eagles. The Vikings defense was a screen door.
Any QB is only going to be as good as their weapons and coaching allows ... Josh Allen wasn't great until he got Diggs.
Daboll's system is great for Jones because he has the tools ... but not every QB is going to be successful under Daboll.
What people overlook is that aside from the fumbles ... Jones had one of the best rookie QB seasons ever under Pat Shurmur ... and His Oline and weapons weren't any better then they they are now.
The 2 Years between Shurmur and Daboll were the perfect storm ... throw those years out
rockaction
Footballguy
I just downloaded a picture of Joe Judge's triangle formation as he ran a QB sneak from his own three yard line on second (?) down. Just truly breathtakingly awful.
Joe, you're a **** coach. Don't ever forget it. You swindled New York for two years and got lucky doing it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
To be fair, Jones also had horrific ball security.
Jones has improved his ball security year over year since his rookie season. And by ball security we are talkin about fumbles only ... Ints have never been a big issue with Jones.
The Fumbles his rookie were clearly an issue but also take into account that between Rushing and Getting sacked Jones was taking a hell of a lot more hits then most QBs so you would expect him to fumble more than most QBs. He was also incredibly unlucky in that almost all of his fumbles were lost highlighting the issue further
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I wasn’t lambasting him for it - he’s definitely improved.
But it was a significant issue.
And watching those games, it certainly wasn’t all about luck - he had terrible ball security. He’d hold onto it away from his body when the sack came. Balls that go tumbling out behind the line like that are almost always recovered by the defense because the OL is facing the wrong way & the majority of offensive players are moving downfield, away from the ball.
He has been better with ball security this year. I was only pointing out the obvious about one element of his early struggles. It was what it was.
The Frankman
Footballguy
yeah, that's what made it hard to even evaluate Daniel Jones properly... his terrible pocket awareness led to soft strips and his unwillingness to "throw people open" limited who he could even work with (remember Golden Tate on MNF "Throw me the ball!"). Didn't even mention the horrible coaching over the years and issues with the O-Line.
This year the Giants' staff has done a great job working with him on the pocket awareness issue; now he actually recognizes pressure better and can make a decision (run/pass/etc.). The accuracy is always going to be an issue because the Giants employ so many timing routes with him, but he's shown improvement in that area outside of the occasional "heart attack" ball. He still doesn't throw guys open and that's a function of the O as much as it's his inability to do so: Mike Kafka and Brian Daboli are hellbent on keeping Jones in a certain game manager mold/comfort level. It's great when the Giants D/Saquon can control the game, but it's a problem if the Giants get behind two scores/face a solid defense than can cover WRs and limit the run game.
To say Jones has 'arrived' after beatng the Colts and Vikings (two of the worst defense in the league and schematically very similar) I feel is putting the cart before the horse. I've seen that sentiment many times over the years (Giants/Washington games for example) and it usually results in Jones backsliding a few games later as he faces a legitimate D. Giants will face their first real defensive test in weeks as they face the Iggles in hostile territory in the NFC Divisional Round.
This year the Giants' staff has done a great job working with him on the pocket awareness issue; now he actually recognizes pressure better and can make a decision (run/pass/etc.). The accuracy is always going to be an issue because the Giants employ so many timing routes with him, but he's shown improvement in that area outside of the occasional "heart attack" ball. He still doesn't throw guys open and that's a function of the O as much as it's his inability to do so: Mike Kafka and Brian Daboli are hellbent on keeping Jones in a certain game manager mold/comfort level. It's great when the Giants D/Saquon can control the game, but it's a problem if the Giants get behind two scores/face a solid defense than can cover WRs and limit the run game.
To say Jones has 'arrived' after beatng the Colts and Vikings (two of the worst defense in the league and schematically very similar) I feel is putting the cart before the horse. I've seen that sentiment many times over the years (Giants/Washington games for example) and it usually results in Jones backsliding a few games later as he faces a legitimate D. Giants will face their first real defensive test in weeks as they face the Iggles in hostile territory in the NFC Divisional Round.
I'm not sure about that. Every time this year they're had a chance to unleash Jones, they run Saquon into the ground (the Houston exans game come to mind). Make no mistake, Saquon is the engine of the Giants offense; without him it collapses. Like I said above, Kafka seems to want to keep Daniel Jones in a very specific mode of play because he seemingly isn't trusted to do more yet. Maybe with a full camp and by September 2023, we see a new Daniel Jones tasked with more offensive responsibility.
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I just mean as prospects in general. A year ago people were drooling all over themselves about these QB's. Now things are returning to earth.
I didn't say they were bad prospects, I just said overhyped. I mean, people were talking about Young like he's the next Joe Montana. Do you remember the hype behind Manziel and Mayfield? Were they overhyped? Did they fail JUST because of landing spot? No. They failed because they weren't as good NFL prospects as people thought they were. And there were issues with both, that people were ignoring and just expecting the positive possibilities, instead of considering how their deficiencies might derail everything else. And I see some of those negative possibilities with Young. Regardless of where he lands. Like I said, he's obviously very talented, physically. And he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and understand how to play the position, which isn't something I could say about say Richardson, who has absolutely elite traits and skills, just a questionable QB mind.
But Young is no Trevor Lawrence, who to me, is one of the few QB prospects of late that did deserve whatever hype he got as a prospect. And people were saying, legitimately that he was one of the best QB prospects of the decade/era or whatever. SOME folks are saying similar things about Young, and I don't think they are comparable.
Landing spot will obviously effect how they develop. But I am simply speaking from this point in time, obviously before we know where they will go. All though, we have pretty good idea that one of Young or Stroud will end up going to Houston, unless they for some reason take a huge gamble on Richardson because of his ceiling, but I think that would be absolutely nuts. We are probably looking at Houston, Indy, Lions, Hawks, Panthers as landing spots.
Anyway, all we can actually know for sure right now is what type of prospects they are. And I don't see how they haven't been overhyped, this entire draft class has been overhyped for like 2 years straight. Sure, there is depth at RB, but the WR class is pretty shallow and top heavy, and out of the top 3, I'm not totally in love with any of those options. I see their potential, but I don't feel secure in any at least. Obviously Bijan is special and Gibbs is probably a safe pick. But after those 2 there's like 5 or 6 RBs that could go in any given order and who are kind of a crapshoot. Obviously, I prefer some of them to others. But they are most dependent on landing spot obviously.
People were calling Young "elite" and "generational" and all things like that, and I just don't agree at all with those assessments. And we've heard similar in past years about other QBs who have flopped. And with that frame, even if he is good, I am just not optimistic he can hold up physically. He's going to have to put on a ton of muscle. I mean he weighs like 190 pounds and is only 5'11...... I weighed more than that in highschool. He's going to have to get up to 205 or so at least, which is about where other QBs of his height, like Murray and Wilson are at.
Ok. So my point. He's hyped MORE than even Mayfield or Manziel were. This hype is probably on par with Trevor Lawrence, which I actually do find ridiculous.
Generational QB prospects of the past, were like Lawrence, Luck, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino..... these guys were ACTUAL generational talents/prospects. Luck flamed out of course and had injury problems. But when he was on, he was great.
This is the basis of my current opinion, that this QB class is overhyped. Look at Baker and Darnold...... and Josh Allen ended up being the best of them all from that year, a draft that also included Josh Rosen in the top 10. And then of course the 2nd best QB of that class, Lemar Jackson, wasn't taken until pick 32.
This class, in terms of the QBs at least, reminds me a lot of that 2018 class. All though I like Stroud WAY better than Darnold, and I liked Josh Allen/Jackson WAY more than I like Richardson. Levis to me can go in either direction, either something like Daniel Jones, or something like Josh Rosen, Haskins or Darnold maybe, just with more physical ability and a better arm.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
As I have the 1st 4 picks in my 2023 rookie draft for a SF rebuild, I have been paying extremely close attention to this situation.
I have seen no discernible drop off in enthusiasm for either of these quarterbacks.
In fact, I’ve seen a distinctive increase in enthusiasm for CJ Stroud, based on his bowl game.
So again, I respectfully disagree with that premise.
Well, if you are saying they are still overhyped or more overhyped, that's fair. I'm sure many still do overhype them and perceive them as something between generational and elite.
And I do finally see more people putting Stroud ahead of Young, which I wholly agree with. SO sure, Stroud's value relative to Young might be rising. But I am more talking about the entire draft class and the prospects in relation to prospects in other years, or just the general level of prospect. Within the context of the 2023 draft, of course individuals will rise and fall constantly until draft day.
But value for the picks has certainly dropped off in my leagues and among those who I listen to and talk to, which suggests to me, opinions on the prospects has changed, at least in my circles. Unless you have the 1.01 or 1.02 in my leagues rookie drafts, and are looking for a RB. Or in superflex, all 4 will prob be gone by like pick 6 or 7 depending on draft capital.
Maybe those pick values will go up again as we get closer to the draft and things settle and we do know where people land.
But yes, I guess will have to agree to disagree.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I am saying I believe they are appropriately hyped. They’re both excellent QBs, they should both have significant draft capital, and they should both be 1st year starters in the NFL.
It’s the sudden souring on them by folks like you, calling them overhyped - before even landing on a team or playing a snap that intake issue with.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t see that at all.
Where are you getting this? None of my trade calcs have the value of picks 1-4 changing much. None of the dozens of YouTubers I follow or fantasy sports writers have soured on either of these QBs. Again - Stroud’s value has clearly increased, which contradicts your assertion.
I don’t believe the value of those picks will move in the slightest before the NFL draft, and a lot of that will have to do with RB landing spots for Bijan & Gibbs, and especially Young & Stroud.
You’re making a very specific claim here about the value of Young & Stroud diminishing and it would be nice to have a source or something to substantiate that. I don’t see it anywhere but your posts.
No, I'm making a claim that people are becoming more reasonable about the entire draft class. And within that context, Stroud and Young. And about the value of the picks themselves, which depends on a number of factors. And I am suggesting their actual value was never quite as high as much of the hype. It's not the players that have changed.
I'm talking about perception and how that effects value. Value of course is relative to league and the aggregate of owners in that league. Someone drops a 1.01 rookie pick on Richardson and that changes the relative value of every player in that specific draft.
I'm also basing this partly on MY leagues. Most of which are 16-18 team deep dynasties. Some superflex, some 1QB, only 1 TE premium, like half IDP.
And again, I'm not talking about Bijan. Whatever the value of the entire class, Bijan is legitimately a generational talent and perception of his value specifically likely won't change. To some extent, Gibbs perception at least right now is consistent. But overall, everything after those two, or outside of those 2,perception of what to expect out of the overall class and certainty in players outside of BIjan/Gibbs, has deflated a bit since the beginning of the 2022 season and last years draft.
I mean Bijan is just a different stratosphere. People are still touting the depth of the RB class, and that itself is legit. But the Wr's are pretty thin and I would say, no sure things this year, with maybe Johnston being the highest ceiling boom/bust and Addison, JSN being the safer likely WR1s.
But the hype leading up to now, to me was crazy. It's like the hype that's going on now for 2024 class lol. But then, future drafts often do seem to be overhyped. 2022 was maybe underhyped a little until the draft, and still too be determined obviously. But that WR class was probably akin to this years RB class. And it looks like there could be at least 2 QB steals from the 2022, a QB group that people were very down on.
A far as the Heisman, that is traditionally no guarantee. It used to be almost a negative, but at least over the last decade or so the track record is better. But still, there's the Mariotas whos serviceable, RG3s, Manziel, Tebow, Jameis Winston, Baker Mayfield, Devonta Smith who is good but not elite in the NFL, Jason White, Matt Leinart, Troy Smith........ so why would I put stock in the Heisman? At all? Sometimes it works out and the Heisman winner is great, like Lamar, Kyle Murray and some others. But they, overall, actually seem to be outliers.
As far sources? I don't know, I listen to guys like Dynasty Trade HQ, Dynasty and Chill, TheFFdynasty, South Hampton FF, DF Flock,TheFantasyPlaybook, DynastyTradesin5..... and a bunch more. I think these are some of those that mentioned in various ways what I am suggesting. But I don't remember exactly, or every video.
Here's a whole thread of people discussing it. And quite a few mocking the hype lol.
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
And I am clearly not the only one who believes that perception of the value of the 2023 class, as a whole, has waned.
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So you think Young and Stroud are elite, generational talents? "Can't miss" Qbs? Or as close to cant miss as possible I suppose? Because to me, that's what you mean when you say what you are saying, that they deserve those accolades right now. In which case, I highly disagree. Regardless of landing spot.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This is fair. From what I’ve seen the picks get more expensive as we get closer to the draft, and especially during the draft when people get a twinkle in their eye over certain players on the board.
But this context absolutely does make a difference. I think you might find that especially in 16-18 team leagues early 1st round picks yet even more valuable still as compared to 12 teamers.
My 2.01 pick in the rebuild 13th. In my 16 team league it’s 17th. Huge difference for sure.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I never said they were. I said exactly what I thought they were, in great detail.
That’s a straw man - you’re highly disagreeing with something I never said, that you’re projecting.
I said what I said. Stroud and Young will have
1. Draft capital (both top 4 NFL picks
2. 1st year starter (both expected to start year 1 for the team that drafts them)
Young might or might not be a generational talent. There are scouts willing to go there despite his size, and they know more anout football than I do. But I’m a little hesitant about it. That said, in SF, he’s got 1 & 2 going for him, and that gives him Bigtime FF relevance.
I’m more of a fan of Stroud, as he has better size, and has shown mobility can be part of his game.
I don’t know who will or won’t be a “generational talent” so kindly don’t claim I said that. But I know they’ll both be Year 1 starters, and with the capital spent on them, they’ll likely get a lot of rope. And based on their college game, I have good reason to expect their skills will translate to the NFL.
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I just want to know what you're planning to do with those 4 picks.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Landing spot will determine it, but 1.01 is Bijan.
Very likely 1.02 & 1.03 are Stroud & Young.
1.04 is Gibbs if he lands on a team that I think will use him correctly, with draft capital that makes a statement (day 1 or 2 pick), or potentially the WR1 if he doesn’t.
I also have 1.08 & 1.10, so ideally I go RB/QB/QB/RB & hope Levis, Richardson, or one of the RBs (or 2 of these 3) goes 5-7 so I can still get a Tier 1 WR.
That’s the plan so far. Long time to go until we draft. Combine & NFL draft might change things.
Hoping to kick off my rebuild in style though.
I never claimed you said that. You did. lol No, it's not a strawman, because I didn't start out talking about you specifically. I was talking in general. And to me, THAT was the level of overhype, which I explained.
I explained exactly what I was talking about, in regard to "overhype", which included calling them generatinal talent, and all these other things, and you said that you disagreed with that. So if you disagreed with what I actually said, and not what you seem to think I said, then you must think they are generational QB prospects.
And if you don't think that, then it sounds to more like you think there is some overhype, exaggeration and hyperbole out there also.
So which is it?
I was asking if that is what you meant, because THAT is what I meant by overhyped, which you then suggested was was not overhyped.
So then by what you are saying, you would agree that those claiming they are generational talentes, the elite of the elite, best QB prospect in howeverlong, are being hyperbolic right? Which is "overhype". exaggeration.
That's how this whole thing started. I wasn't pointing out your personal opinion on the matter.
You're now just making it a semantic issue. Your using a completely different definition of "overhyped" then. Which is the entire reason I went through the trouble of explaining exactly what I meant by it. So that wouldn't happen.
This was the first line of my initial post, which was a reply to Frankman's comment....
"I gotta say, I think these QBs in the 2023 class were overhyped, and now perception is coming back down to earth."
I didn't say that YOU said anything. I literally said "I think".
Now maybe you disagree with certain elements of what I stated and not the post in its entirety, in which case, that's fine. But that;s not what happened.
And then in the reply to you, I specifically explained what I meant by "overhyped". With a rather lengthy explanation . That was based on the premise of people calling Young and Stroud "generational" and "elite" and things of that nature. And I gave examples even. I wrote that entire post to try to avoid this entire little misunderstanding here. The comment that began.....
"I just mean as prospects in general. A year ago people were drooling all over themselves about these QB's. Now things are returning to earth."
So to be honest, I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore.
And I'm sorry, I type fast, and sometimes I look up and my posts are long. I'm not asking anyone to read them if they don't want.
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Yea they have. Those soft fumbles is really what killed him. And he's improved to an extent. I never understood that issue. I mean, these are NFL QBs. Keep a ball close to your body, seems like a pretty simple skill. Or I guess I should say, doesn't seem like a difficult thing to incorporate into one's repertoire. It amazes me that this issue exists at all to such a high degree across the Rookie and college QB landscape. I get that some of it has to do with the technical, and their throwing motion. But then what the heck are coaches from pee wee through college actually teaching them? The ancient Greeks and Spartans would be absolutely ashamed at our ability to mentor young warriors.
And then yea, bad habits take a while to break. But 3 years? I mean. 4 years even. Just how? My dog rolled over the 2nd time she tried.
Well yea, they kept Jones safe. I mean, I literally think the first time he was really unleashed was against the Vikings. And we all knew he could throw the ball, but that game it was actually utilized heavily.
What I'm worried about though, is if Barkley leaves, and we replace him with the RB equivalent of Wandale Robinson, then we have no other way to move the football other than to let Jones rack up more attempts. And probably worse, it gives him way less time in the pocket ultimately and we don't need the yips returning. They better sure up the Oline like, to grade A- level at least. It was much better this year but I still think there's room to improve. And while I hope we don't lose Barkley, I really don't hope we draft the right one, as I assume we will, probably somewhere between rounds 2-6 I'd imagine. If this RB class is as deep as it's supposed to be, we better spend at least one pick on a RB regardless, but if we lose Barkley, perhaps an earlier one, just not a 1st. And what we really need is a WR anyway, I honestly wouldn't mind them spending another 1st on a WR this year, they prob wouldn't get JSN, QJ or Addison, but there's maybe a chance one of them falls to them, and then perhaps Downs. But if they end up taking another Toney or Wandale, I'd lose my mind. I'd rather spend two high picks on WR, RB honestly with Barkley gone, and just fill other positions later, or through free agency or whatever.
But yea, if our running game is just complete trash next year if Barkleys gone, I am not sure if they will have a choice. But if we did add a top WR then at least it would give Jones a legit weapon. As good as Bellinger was, I almost want them to draft Mayer, I really think he's going to be good. But they really gotta go WR. I don't think this class is deep enough in WR to guarantee getting one later. Its amazing in one of the best WR classes in years, instead of George Pickens, we end up with Robinson.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
lol - all good. We aren’t even arguing.
I understood from your last post that you were talking about *your* league, and that your league members weren’t paying for 2023 picks.
In the broader landscape of FF, that’s simply not the case.
Also, when you say, “so you’re saying X, Y, and Z” for things I never said (so you’re saying they’re generational talents, for example), then arguing against them, that’s what I mean by a straw man.
But it’s all good - clearly we’re talking about different things. You’re talking about your league, and I’m talking about the value of ‘23 picks in general.
I’m not sure why your leaguemates don’t value early ‘23 picks, and especially in a 16-18 team format, but no need to argue about it - it’s apples and oranges, since in both of my leagues, and most others from what I’ve seen, they’re sought after and will only get more valuable as the combine & NFL draft pass.
But each to their own. Best of luck to you in your leagues.
Actually no. I am also talking about in general. And my leagues are simply only some of the evidence I am using to arrive at that assessment. Evidence of others who are suggesting similar things, which I then provided.
And yes, I understand what you mean by strawman. And I was asking, for clarification then if that is what you meant, because that is what I meant.
But yes, it's all good.
Best of luck to you too.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I believe that’s Herschel Walker’s son.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hard not to put quite a bit of last night on Danny Dimes. He was wildly inaccurate on a few bunnies, and while his WR didn’t do him any favors, he also didn’t show a lot of pocket presence. His pocket clock is still deficient, and he rarely made reads beyond his 1st, at least thrice missing Barkley open in the flat and opting to throw into coverage instead.
He arguably should have had at least 1 more pick.
The issue with all of those things is that those are the exact same things he’s struggled with his entire career.
It’ll be interesting to see if the Giants stick with him. If they do it might be 1 year, or a 2-year incentive-laden contract.
He arguably should have had at least 1 more pick.
The issue with all of those things is that those are the exact same things he’s struggled with his entire career.
It’ll be interesting to see if the Giants stick with him. If they do it might be 1 year, or a 2-year incentive-laden contract.
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