QB Justin Herbert, LAC (3 Viewers)

[Smack Tripper]

Am I crazy, or are there a lot of people out there with a take like "I don't know what makes Herbert so special?" Seems crazy to me. Sure, he didn't have a great game to me, but he's a consensus top 5 QB lock for the future or am I the crazy one?

Herbert is really good, but it feels like he is the same QB now that he was three years ago. I agree with a take I read that said he came into the league as an A-/B+ QB and has stayed at that level rather than elevating. It just feels like he hasn't improved, and he throws a lot of INTs in the 4th quarter.

Consider:

• In his first season, his head coach was Anthony Lynn (not good for passing QB)... but his OC was Steichen, which helped to offset.
• In his second and third seasons, his head coach was Staley (defensive coach) and his OC was Lombardi. Not good.
• In his fourth season, his head coach is still Staley (defensive coach)... but his OC is Moore, who was anticipated to be an upgrade, but has had mixed results so far.

No doubt, Herbert is partly responsible for his development or lack thereof, but IMO coaching has played a big part in it. I have come to believe that the level to which coaching impacts player performance is quite underrated. I mean, it's talked about, but I still think it is very underrated. Put Herbert on all 31 other teams with their coaches, teammates, organizational culture, media scrutiny, etc., and he would have different results, some likely better, some definitely worse.

Agreed. Staley is a lousy head coach and after they run him off, the Chargers should be doing everything they can to build everything around making Herbert the most efficient and productive player on the team. I'd like to see Ben Johnson land here and see what happens.

Wow that’s a great call!

 

[Ray_T]

Which made it even a bigger surprise when they drafted a WR with their first rounder this year

I am with you on this.
I never understand why teams will draft a player top of round 1 to be their franchise QB and they wont invest in the O line to protect their investment. Boggles my mind. and then (more often than not) the QB gets hurt or doesnt develop the way he should due to running for their lives behind a leaky line. Then people blame the QB!!!! in reality its a bad organization that doesnt properly support their talented QB and allow him to develop properly.

 

[Ray_T]

I don't get to watch many of his games but when I do I always come away with the same feeling. He's huge, he's insanely talented, he processes quickly and has a cannon for an arm, and I really do enjoy watching him. He reminds me a lot of Andrew Luck, in that he makes a couple plays per game that are very creative, the kind of "wow how the heck did he pull that off" type plays. But he needs to improve his touch on his passes. Feels like everything is thrown 100 mph.

well, I'll never forget one throw he made into the flat last year. play was well covered and the DB turned his head for a second to look at his man and Herbert zipped that ball in under the guys arm and into the hands of his WR (I think it may have been Keenan Allen) before the DB could turn his head back to look for the ball. it was an absolutely sick throw. I have never seen anyone do something quite like that. it was very Impressive.

 

[Tau837]

Which made it even a bigger surprise when they drafted a WR with their first rounder this year

I am with you on this.
I never understand why teams will draft a player top of round 1 to be their franchise QB and they wont invest in the O line to protect their investment. Boggles my mind. and then (more often than not) the QB gets hurt or doesnt develop the way he should due to running for their lives behind a leaky line. Then people blame the QB!!!! in reality its a bad organization that doesnt properly support their talented QB and allow him to develop properly.

To open the season, this was their starting OL:

LT Slater - drafted at 1.13 in 2021
LG Zion - drafted at 1.17 in 2022
C Linsley - signed as premier free agent after 2020 season, in which he was 1st team All Pro
RG Salyer - drafted at 6.16 in 2022 and started at LT most of 2022 season
RT Pipkins - drafted at 3.27 in 2019, re-signed in 2023

In today's NFL, that is a strong investment in OL. To say they have not invested in OL since drafting Herbert is completely false. Every one of these players was drafted or signed after Herbert's first season.

 

[efactor]

Which made it even a bigger surprise when they drafted a WR with their first rounder this year

I am with you on this.
I never understand why teams will draft a player top of round 1 to be their franchise QB and they wont invest in the O line to protect their investment. Boggles my mind. and then (more often than not) the QB gets hurt or doesnt develop the way he should due to running for their lives behind a leaky line. Then people blame the QB!!!! in reality its a bad organization that doesnt properly support their talented QB and allow him to develop properly.

You guys seem to be misinformed about the Chargers. To open the season, this was their starting OL:

LT Slater - drafted at 1.13 in 2021
LG Zion - drafted at 1.17 in 2022
C Linsley - signed as premier free agent after 2020 season, in which he was 1st team All Pro
RG Salyer - drafted at 6.16 in 2022 and started at LT most of 2022 season
RT Pipkins - drafted at 3.27 in 2019, re-signed in 2023

In today's NFL, that is a strong investment in OL. To say they have not invested in OL since drafting Herbert is completely false. Every one of these players was drafted or signed after Herbert's first season.

I realize facts may be inconvenient to your arguments...

But they had far greater needs than a WR who can’t get on the field even with Williams out. First round Rookie WRs contribute immediately in todays NFL unless they just aren’t that good which seems the case here.

Plus the pass protection was really bad so just because they invested in the OL doesn’t mean they can’t invest further.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Which made it even a bigger surprise when they drafted a WR with their first rounder this year

I am with you on this.
I never understand why teams will draft a player top of round 1 to be their franchise QB and they wont invest in the O line to protect their investment. Boggles my mind. and then (more often than not) the QB gets hurt or doesnt develop the way he should due to running for their lives behind a leaky line. Then people blame the QB!!!! in reality its a bad organization that doesnt properly support their talented QB and allow him to develop properly.

You guys seem to be misinformed about the Chargers. To open the season, this was their starting OL:

LT Slater - drafted at 1.13 in 2021
LG Zion - drafted at 1.17 in 2022
C Linsley - signed as premier free agent after 2020 season, in which he was 1st team All Pro
RG Salyer - drafted at 6.16 in 2022 and started at LT most of 2022 season
RT Pipkins - drafted at 3.27 in 2019, re-signed in 2023

In today's NFL, that is a strong investment in OL. To say they have not invested in OL since drafting Herbert is completely false. Every one of these players was drafted or signed after Herbert's first season.

I realize facts may be inconvenient to your arguments...

But they had far greater needs than a WR who can’t get on the field even with Williams out. First round Rookie WRs contribute immediately in todays NFL unless they just aren’t that good which seems the case here.

Plus the pass protection was really bad so just because they invested in the OL doesn’t mean they can’t invest further.

They needed a receiver IMO, but their choice of QJ was poor.

 

[finfansteve]

One more pick and I’m sure they would’ve taken JSN. He would’ve been awesome paired up with Herbert

 

[Houston turmOiler]

Flowers and Addison were still there. In hindsight, either would have been a better choice

 

[King of the Jungle]

Flowers and Addison were still there. In hindsight, either would have been a better choice

I also think Kincaid would have been an incredible pairing with Herbert. I did not understand their choice with the others left on the board.

 

[finfansteve]

Flowers and Addison were still there. In hindsight, either would have been a better choice

I also think Kincaid would have been an incredible pairing with Herbert. I did not understand their choice with the others left on the board.

They picked the biggest project with the most questions. I guess I can understand the pick but it could’ve been put to better use for a player who could’ve contributed quicker

 

[Ray_T]

Which made it even a bigger surprise when they drafted a WR with their first rounder this year

I am with you on this.
I never understand why teams will draft a player top of round 1 to be their franchise QB and they wont invest in the O line to protect their investment. Boggles my mind. and then (more often than not) the QB gets hurt or doesnt develop the way he should due to running for their lives behind a leaky line. Then people blame the QB!!!! in reality its a bad organization that doesnt properly support their talented QB and allow him to develop properly.

You guys seem to be misinformed about the Chargers. To open the season, this was their starting OL:

LT Slater - drafted at 1.13 in 2021
LG Zion - drafted at 1.17 in 2022
C Linsley - signed as premier free agent after 2020 season, in which he was 1st team All Pro
RG Salyer - drafted at 6.16 in 2022 and started at LT most of 2022 season
RT Pipkins - drafted at 3.27 in 2019, re-signed in 2023

In today's NFL, that is a strong investment in OL. To say they have not invested in OL since drafting Herbert is completely false. Every one of these players was drafted or signed after Herbert's first season.

I realize facts may be inconvenient to your arguments...

But they had far greater needs than a WR who can’t get on the field even with Williams out. First round Rookie WRs contribute immediately in todays NFL unless they just aren’t that good which seems the case here.

Plus the pass protection was really bad so just because they invested in the OL doesn’t mean they can’t invest further.

honestly investing in the line is never a bad call. and I watched the game and I felt Herbert really didnt have the protection he needed.
I do understand and agree that just because the end result wasnt 100% doesnt mean they didnt try. and I get that. but in general, when you get a good, young QB in there, protecting him and giving him at least one or two good targets to play with should be the priority. I dont begrudge them drafting a WR in round 1. the WR they have are injury prone and the top WR is now on the wrong side of 30. I have also found that signing free agents is usually a band aid solution. you do that to hold the fort until you can draft and develop someone.

 

[Judge Smails]

They have absolutely invested in the line. Slater was supposed to be the 2nd coming. He allowed pressure all night. The line looked great in the preseason and week 1, opening up running lanes. They've been terrible ever since. Can't open holes, can't give Herbert enough time - not a good combo. They have definitely under performed.

 

[Tau837]

Which made it even a bigger surprise when they drafted a WR with their first rounder this year

I am with you on this.
I never understand why teams will draft a player top of round 1 to be their franchise QB and they wont invest in the O line to protect their investment. Boggles my mind. and then (more often than not) the QB gets hurt or doesnt develop the way he should due to running for their lives behind a leaky line. Then people blame the QB!!!! in reality its a bad organization that doesnt properly support their talented QB and allow him to develop properly.

You guys seem to be misinformed about the Chargers. To open the season, this was their starting OL:

LT Slater - drafted at 1.13 in 2021
LG Zion - drafted at 1.17 in 2022
C Linsley - signed as premier free agent after 2020 season, in which he was 1st team All Pro
RG Salyer - drafted at 6.16 in 2022 and started at LT most of 2022 season
RT Pipkins - drafted at 3.27 in 2019, re-signed in 2023

In today's NFL, that is a strong investment in OL. To say they have not invested in OL since drafting Herbert is completely false. Every one of these players was drafted or signed after Herbert's first season.

I realize facts may be inconvenient to your arguments...

But they had far greater needs than a WR who can’t get on the field even with Williams out. First round Rookie WRs contribute immediately in todays NFL unless they just aren’t that good which seems the case here.

Plus the pass protection was really bad so just because they invested in the OL doesn’t mean they can’t invest further.

I follow the Chargers very closely. They absolutely should not have used their first round pick on an offensive lineman. They invested a lot in the OL in recent seasons, and they had good reason to believe it was in good shape. The biggest known OL need going into the draft was backup center, and, unfortunately, the Chargers didn't draft one. And now they are paying for it. But that wouldn't have been a first round pick.

As for the pass protection being bad, I assume you are referring to 2022. Maybe you aren't accounting for the fact that All Pro LT Slater missed 14 games in 2022 and was known to be back for 2023.

I'm not saying they should have drafted WR in the first. I didn't like that pick at the time, which means I obviously don't like it now. I thought they should have picked an Edge player or a TE in the first and targeted a WR in the 2nd or 3rd, given the WR class was somewhat weak at the top but deep. They absolutely did need to draft a WR.

 

[LawFitz]

I realize facts may be inconvenient to your arguments...

I follow the Chargers very closely. I trust that you don't.

You remind me of me ten years ago. Smart (***), who doesn't realize it's so not worth it. Take no offense, just pointing out you could be a lot better, and I suspect absolutely will be over time.

ETA: your posts are awesome overall, even if you suck sometimes with delivery. Take the compliment, please. Not intended to start a flame war, just one homie being real with another.

 

[Tau837]

I realize facts may be inconvenient to your arguments...

I follow the Chargers very closely. I trust that you don't.

You remind me of me ten years ago. Smart (***), who doesn't realize it's so not worth it. Take no offense, just pointing out you could be a lot better, and I suspect absolutely will be over time.

ETA: your posts are awesome overall, even if you suck sometimes with delivery. Take the compliment, please. Not intended to start a flame war, just one homie being real with another.

Thanks for the compliment. No offense taken.

 

[Ray_T]

I'm not saying they should have drafted WR in the first. I didn't like that pick at the time, which means I obviously don't like it now. I thought they should have picked an Edge player or a TE in the first and targeted a WR in the 2nd or 3rd, given the WR class was somewhat weak at the top but deep. They absolutely did need to draft a WR.

I cannot disagree. The Defense needed a difference maker a whole lot more than the offense needed a WR.
There is no doubt of that.

A TE would have been nice too but once again...... The defense certainly needs help more than the offense does. only concern with the offense is the #1 WR is on the Wrong side of the age of 30. but they could have drafted a high upside WR in round 2 or 3 and take their time developing him. That was actually an option that may have been better received as the starting WR were good enough.

 

[Tau837]

I'm not saying they should have drafted WR in the first. I didn't like that pick at the time, which means I obviously don't like it now. I thought they should have picked an Edge player or a TE in the first and targeted a WR in the 2nd or 3rd, given the WR class was somewhat weak at the top but deep. They absolutely did need to draft a WR.

I cannot disagree. The Defense needed a difference maker a whole lot more than the offense needed a WR.
There is no doubt of that.

A TE would have been nice too but once again...... The defense certainly needs help more than the offense does. only concern with the offense is the #1 WR is on the Wrong side of the age of 30. but they could have drafted a high upside WR in round 2 or 3 and take their time developing him. That was actually an option that may have been better received as the starting WR were good enough.

The defense is performing more poorly than the offense for sure, and it has in every season under supposed defensive wizard Staley. But it is also true that the Chargers have been spending a huge amount of their cap dollars on defense throughout Staley's tenure:

• 2021 - #6 in cap dollars spent on defense (41% of adjusted cap)
• 2022 - #4 in cap dollars spent on defense (37% of adjusted cap)
• 2023 - #1 in cap dollars spent on defense (42% of adjusted cap)

Unfortunately, they have been spending those cap dollars on poor defensive production. This would support the argument that the team's strength is Herbert, and thus offense, and thus the team should invest a lot in bolstering the offense to the maximum degree, building on that strength. I don't think OL was the way to go in the first round, but it was known that they needed a quality backup center and a TE1 of the future, as well as a WR1-WR3 caliber WR entering last year's draft, They drafted Johnston but ignored the other two needs on offense, and they are paying for that now.

Unfortunately, IMO the biggest issue is with ownership, which won't change. The next biggest issue is with the fact that the owner's son runs the front office, which won't change. The next biggest issue is a coaching issue. Since the first two issues won't change, I don't anticipate any significant improvements until and unless Staley is fired and replaced with a better head coach... and I also fully recognize that the Chargers have a terrible track record with hiring head coaches over the past 15 years, so there is no given they would make a good hire.

It is a pretty dismal outlook for Chargers fans.

 

[Ray_T]

Unfortunately, they have been spending those cap dollars on poor defensive production. This would support the argument that the team's strength is Herbert, and thus offense, and thus the team should invest a lot in bolstering the offense to the maximum degree, building on that strength. I don't think OL was the way to go in the first round,

yeah I get that. They invested a lot in free agent dollars and never got their money's worth. This is not entirely unusual. players are typically older (late 20's early '30s) when they become UFA's and sometimes there is not as much tread in the tires.

I am personally a big believer that you win and lose games on the line. Everything depends on it. If the O line performs, the QB has time to throw, and the RB have holes to run through. If it doesnt, those things dont happen.

On D if you have a top D line its the opposite. even teams with a good O line will struggle to run the ball against you and their QBs will struggle throwing the ball under pressure.

this is why so many teams place a premium on the running QB. they can (to some degree) compensate for a bad line by using their feet.

that said, it is my belief that you really build championship teams through the draft. Free agency can help but given the age of the average UFA quite often you get value for your dollar on the first year (maybe two) of the contract and then poor value for the rest of it as the player ages. Obviously there are exceptions but I have found free agency is basically a band aid solution that you utilize until you can draft a more permanent replacement.

but if you draft poorly or do a poor job of signing free agents, that whole system falls apart.

the good teams do a good job of keeping it together. and the bad ones do not.

Much as I love the chargers, they could have done a better job here.

sure I agree that they have invested in the line. they have invested in the defense with free agent picks. Yes the line has shown signs of coming around but given the investment, I had hoped for more. Last week against Dallas it did not feel like Herbert had enough time to do his job at times. but then again its the Dallas D. pretty solid defense so maybe I'm over reacting on this some. but when you get beat you can quite often figure out where you need to improve. and as you said, the line is young, so better days are likely ahead.

as for the defense.... difference making players rarely come available in free agency. typically the only way to get them is in the draft. so yeah, they invested in the defense but that will only get you so far. I do think the odds of getting good value for their draft capital with a defender at a position of need is greater than it would be for a TE. Not many TE's are good enough to warrant a first round pick either way. so if investing in a TE, why not round 2?

 

[Ilov80s]

I really love Herbert but it sure is easy to see the Phillip Rivers trajectory for him. Always a very good QB, never quite elite. Never wins the big games.

 

[King of the Jungle]

I really love Herbert but it sure is easy to see the Phillip Rivers trajectory for him. Always a very good QB, never quite elite. Never wins the big games.

He needs consistency in coaching. To play at the level he has with three different coordinators is pretty rare. Weapons have been injured, play calling not optimal at times, and he has made some mistakes. I am confident he makes his mark at some point as long as the Chargers organization doesn’t mess it completely up.

 

[Ilov80s]

I really love Herbert but it sure is easy to see the Phillip Rivers trajectory for him. Always a very good QB, never quite elite. Never wins the big games.

He needs consistency in coaching. To play at the level he has with three different coordinators is pretty rare. Weapons have been injured, play calling not optimal at times, and he has made some mistakes. I am confident he makes his mark at some point as long as the Chargers organization doesn’t mess it completely up.

Yeah, this is not a knock on Herbert. He's great. I've always been a fan and I am sure this thread bares it out. I just have a feeling hes not quite going to be what he could have been.

 

[Tau837]

Unfortunately, they have been spending those cap dollars on poor defensive production. This would support the argument that the team's strength is Herbert, and thus offense, and thus the team should invest a lot in bolstering the offense to the maximum degree, building on that strength. I don't think OL was the way to go in the first round,

yeah I get that. They invested a lot in free agent dollars and never got their money's worth. This is not entirely unusual. players are typically older (late 20's early '30s) when they become UFA's and sometimes there is not as much tread in the tires.

I am personally a big believer that you win and lose games on the line. Everything depends on it. If the O line performs, the QB has time to throw, and the RB have holes to run through. If it doesnt, those things dont happen.

On D if you have a top D line its the opposite. even teams with a good O line will struggle to run the ball against you and their QBs will struggle throwing the ball under pressure.

this is why so many teams place a premium on the running QB. they can (to some degree) compensate for a bad line by using their feet.

that said, it is my belief that you really build championship teams through the draft. Free agency can help but given the age of the average UFA quite often you get value for your dollar on the first year (maybe two) of the contract and then poor value for the rest of it as the player ages. Obviously there are exceptions but I have found free agency is basically a band aid solution that you utilize until you can draft a more permanent replacement.

but if you draft poorly or do a poor job of signing free agents, that whole system falls apart.

the good teams do a good job of keeping it together. and the bad ones do not.

Much as I love the chargers, they could have done a better job here.

sure I agree that they have invested in the line. they have invested in the defense with free agent picks. Yes the line has shown signs of coming around but given the investment, I had hoped for more. Last week against Dallas it did not feel like Herbert had enough time to do his job at times. but then again its the Dallas D. pretty solid defense so maybe I'm over reacting on this some. but when you get beat you can quite often figure out where you need to improve. and as you said, the line is young, so better days are likely ahead.

as for the defense.... difference making players rarely come available in free agency. typically the only way to get them is in the draft. so yeah, they invested in the defense but that will only get you so far. I do think the odds of getting good value for their draft capital with a defender at a position of need is greater than it would be for a TE. Not many TE's are good enough to warrant a first round pick either way. so if investing in a TE, why not round 2?

Great discussion. I agree with most of this. I will point out that the Chargers defensive spending isn't driven up only by signing external free agents. 5 of their top 6 cap hits in 2023 are defensive players, and they drafted 3 of them and traded for another. They only signed Austin Johnson as an external free agent.

Unfortunately, the Chargers have been paying Bosa a top level contract for a while now, and they have only rarely gotten that level of production from him. That hurts.

And, while I like Derwin James a lot, the Chargers chose to give him a top of market contract even though he plays a non-premium position. As you suggest here, I'd much rather have a top level IDL player and spend those cap dollars in that position group.

I think Staley's scheme is part of the problem. I don't think the team has ever gotten max production from its talent level in his scheme. His scheme worked beautifully for 1 season with the Rams, when he had Donald and Ramsey each healthy and in their primes. It has never worked well since then, and he seems to refuse to make meaningful adjustments. It doesn't matter how good/smart your scheme is if your players cannot execute it properly, and that's been the problem.

 

[FarFromHome]

This guy checks all the boxes of an elite NFL QB that you build around. Only thing missing is that signature moment or moments that make great QBs Hall of Fame QBs. Only 25 years old.

 

[Ray_T]

I think Staley's scheme is part of the problem. I don't the team has ever gotten max production from its talent level in his scheme. His scheme worked beautifully for 1 season with the Rams, when he had Donald and Ramsey each in healthy and in their primes. It has never worked well since then, and he seems to refuse to make meaningful adjustments. It doesn't matter how good/smart your scheme is if you players cannot execute it properly, and that's been the problem.

certainly possible.
Sometimes a defensive scheme requires people with certain skillsets in certain positions. and No matter how good the scheme is.... if you dont have a player with the necessary skillset in that certain position, it can create a hole in your defense.

I have not taken a deep dive into the chargers scheme and how the players fit as this was not a defense I was planning to take in any of my drafts but this happens a lot.

and if the DC cannot modify the scheme to suit the talent, then the defense will underperform.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This guy checks all the boxes of an elite NFL QB that you build around. Only thing missing is that signature moment or moments that make great QBs Hall of Fame QBs. Only 25 years old.

I don’t know if his head is as good of a tool as his arm. He makes some bad decisions at critical times.

I watched the last half of that game today - he was flat out terrible, throwing into coverage, not making any check-downs. Just bad football.

 

[FarFromHome]

This guy checks all the boxes of an elite NFL QB that you build around. Only thing missing is that signature moment or moments that make great QBs Hall of Fame QBs. Only 25 years old.

I don’t know if his head is as good of a tool as his arm. He makes some bad decisions at critical times.

I watched the last half of that game today - he was flat out terrible, throwing into coverage, not making any check-downs. Just bad football.

It's just weird. It's like the offense doesn't have an identity of what they are. He looked bad. They looked bad on how they wanted to attack the Chiefs. It's like they are playing scared to lose instead of just letting it rip. Let it rip!!!

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This guy checks all the boxes of an elite NFL QB that you build around. Only thing missing is that signature moment or moments that make great QBs Hall of Fame QBs. Only 25 years old.

I don’t know if his head is as good of a tool as his arm. He makes some bad decisions at critical times.

I watched the last half of that game today - he was flat out terrible, throwing into coverage, not making any check-downs. Just bad football.

It's just weird. It's like the offense doesn't have an identity of what they are. He looked bad. They looked bad on how they wanted to attack the Chiefs. It's like they are playing scared to lose instead of just letting it rip. Let it rip!!!

And when he does let it rip he’s careless.

 

[Jmiller21kg]

I think Mike Williams is a bigger loss to that offense then I think people may have expected

 

[travdogg]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

 

[Faust]

Justin Herbert: Chargers won't 'panic,' 'quit' despite 2-4 start

 

[need2know]

Another big game another Herbert loss. Overrated as hell

 

[eagles 123]

Don’t fade him now. He will have a monster game against Chi.

 

[Loris]

This guy is setting up to have a Derek Carr type career...

"Derek Carr has a record of 66-83 in his career."

 

[Pip's Invitation]

This guy is setting up to have a Derek Carr type career...

"Derek Carr has a record of 66-83 in his career."

Derek Carr with Jeff George’s arm.

 

[LawFitz]

This guy checks all the boxes of an elite NFL QB that you build around. Only thing missing is that signature moment or moments that make great QBs Hall of Fame QBs.

Wasn't this his reputation in college as well? Maybe it's just who he is. Good to very good, but will never be great. I still think he has Josh Allen upside, but Allen himself is sort of a higher-end version of similar issues - these dudes are big-time stats accumulators, but in the biggest games and most clutch moments, they seem to fall short. Sort of the opposite of Joe Cool Burrow or first-half of career Brady.

 

[Tanner9919]

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so about this mango passion strawberry sherbet kid. I'm glad he's been a hard 'no' on any draft I've been in when drafting. Chargers are the Chargers are the Chargers..
thinking Josh Allen is anything more than a average type QB, an Jag on roids, is naive. missing the big picture. mr int at the wrong time mr just can't put it all together.

 

[Schmeabs]

A lot of you guys are jumping to conclusions that Herbert is overrated and not taking into account how injuries to his ribs last year and hand this year have limited him. He is a top 5 QB talent and once the Chargers get a solid head coach the future looks very bright for San Diego.

 

[Dizzy]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

And isn't this the exact reasoning for Dallas giving Kellen Moore the boot? He doesn't try to control the clock with the running game and likes to "take shots" instead of moving the sticks.

 

[joey]

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so about this mango passion strawberry sherbet kid. I'm glad he's been a hard 'no' on any draft I've been in when drafting. Chargers are the Chargers are the Chargers..
thinking Josh Allen is anything more than a average type QB, an Jag on roids, is naive. missing the big picture. mr int at the wrong time mr just can't put it all together.

A hard “no” for the 5th ranked QB ppg in my yahoo league and 1st QB ppg in my FFPC scoring (huh?!? Is that right?).
maybe you don’t like him in terms of being a Real NFL QB but, in fantasy, he sure doesn’t seem like an Avoid to me.

 

[Faust]

Is Justin Herbert's injured finger holding him back?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

And isn't this the exact reasoning for Dallas giving Kellen Moore the boot? He doesn't try to control the clock with the running game and likes to "take shots" instead of moving the sticks.

Yeah, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Outside of one long run by Kelley, the Chargers struggled to run the ball. But on those passing plays, Herbert ignored Ekeler in the flat at least a dozen+ times. He glanced at him once briefly, then chucked it into double coverage downfield.

Eke was open like a 7-11 for much of the day. He had 2 targets witn 1 reception.

Moore never ignited Pollard like that.

 

[Tau837]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

And isn't this the exact reasoning for Dallas giving Kellen Moore the boot? He doesn't try to control the clock with the running game and likes to "take shots" instead of moving the sticks.

Yeah, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Outside of one long run by Kelley, the Chargers struggled to run the ball. But on those passing plays, Herbert ignored Ekeler in the flat at least a dozen+ times. He glanced at him once briefly, then chucked it into double coverage downfield.

Eke was open like a 7-11 for much of the day. He had 2 targets witn 1 reception.

Moore never ignited Pollard like that.

Last season, Pollard had 56 targets in 18 games - 3.1 targets per game. This season, Ekeler has 11 targets in 3 games - 3.7 targets per game.

It was foreseeable that Ekeler's targets would come down in 2023. I posted this in August:

New OC Moore has not typically targeted his RBs much.

Dallas targeted its RBs:
2022 - 90 times (~15% of targets)
2021 - 120 times (~18%)
2020 - 107 times (~18%)

Ekeler himself had 126 targets last season (~18%), and Chargers RBs collectively had ~26% of the targets. I can see the argument that Ekeler is a better receiving RB than the Cowboys RBs Moore had, though Pollard is pretty good. But I am expecting more of a vertical passing game from the Chargers in 2023, which implies fewer targets to Ekeler. Fewer targets could also contribute to fewer receiving TDs.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

And isn't this the exact reasoning for Dallas giving Kellen Moore the boot? He doesn't try to control the clock with the running game and likes to "take shots" instead of moving the sticks.

Yeah, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Outside of one long run by Kelley, the Chargers struggled to run the ball. But on those passing plays, Herbert ignored Ekeler in the flat at least a dozen+ times. He glanced at him once briefly, then chucked it into double coverage downfield.

Eke was open like a 7-11 for much of the day. He had 2 targets witn 1 reception.

Moore never ignited Pollard like that.

Last season, Pollard had 56 targets in 18 games - 3.1 targets per game. This season, Ekeler has 11 targets in 3 games - 3.7 targets per game.

It was foreseeable that Ekeler's targets would come down in 2023. I posted this in August:

New OC Moore has not typically targeted his RBs much.

Dallas targeted its RBs:
2022 - 90 times (~15% of targets)
2021 - 120 times (~18%)
2020 - 107 times (~18%)

Ekeler himself had 126 targets last season (~18%), and Chargers RBs collectively had ~26% of the targets. I can see the argument that Ekeler is a better receiving RB than the Cowboys RBs Moore had, though Pollard is pretty good. But I am expecting more of a vertical passing game from the Chargers in 2023, which implies fewer targets to Ekeler. Fewer targets could also contribute to fewer receiving TDs.

ok sure I get that - but in this specific game, the WRs were blanketed and Eke was wide open again and again. In one laughable sequence they were 2nd & 5, then 3rd and 5, and Eke had easy 1st downs but Herbert opted to throw deep into double coverage both times.

That's not on the coach. That's on Herbert.

 

[Tau837]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

And isn't this the exact reasoning for Dallas giving Kellen Moore the boot? He doesn't try to control the clock with the running game and likes to "take shots" instead of moving the sticks.

Yeah, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Outside of one long run by Kelley, the Chargers struggled to run the ball. But on those passing plays, Herbert ignored Ekeler in the flat at least a dozen+ times. He glanced at him once briefly, then chucked it into double coverage downfield.

Eke was open like a 7-11 for much of the day. He had 2 targets witn 1 reception.

Moore never ignited Pollard like that.

Last season, Pollard had 56 targets in 18 games - 3.1 targets per game. This season, Ekeler has 11 targets in 3 games - 3.7 targets per game.

It was foreseeable that Ekeler's targets would come down in 2023. I posted this in August:

New OC Moore has not typically targeted his RBs much.

Dallas targeted its RBs:
2022 - 90 times (~15% of targets)
2021 - 120 times (~18%)
2020 - 107 times (~18%)

Ekeler himself had 126 targets last season (~18%), and Chargers RBs collectively had ~26% of the targets. I can see the argument that Ekeler is a better receiving RB than the Cowboys RBs Moore had, though Pollard is pretty good. But I am expecting more of a vertical passing game from the Chargers in 2023, which implies fewer targets to Ekeler. Fewer targets could also contribute to fewer receiving TDs.

ok sure I get that - but in this specific game, the WRs were blanketed and Eke was wide open again and again. In one laughable sequence they were 2nd & 5, then 3rd and 5, and Eke had easy 1st downs but Herbert opted to throw deep into double coverage both times.

That's not on the coach. That's on Herbert.

I think it is being exaggerated a bit in this thread.

Herbert was 17/30. Remove Ekeler's 2 targets, and he was 16/28. Was Ekeler open on every one of those incompletions? I doubt it. For one thing, according to PFF, Ekeler had 2 pass blocking snaps. Unless those both resulted in sacks or scrambles, he couldn't have been targeted on those snaps.

I haven't had time to watch the entire game again, but I watched the first series. Herbert dropped back 4 times:

1. Completed pass to Ekeler
2. Targeted Palmer; DPI called; Ekeler was pass blocking
3. Herbert scrambled for 6 yards; Ekeler was not on the field, Kelley was at RB
4. On 3rd and 2, Herbert was sacked; Ekeler leaked out to the left flat, but Herbert's read started off on the right, and he was sacked before he could go through his progression and get to Ekeler, who wasn't ever even in Herbert's sightline

In that series, Herbert had an opportunity to target Ekeler once, and he did. There was no other opportunity due to coaching and playcalling, not Herbert.

I'm sure Herbert missed a few opportunities where he arguably should have targeted Ekeler, but I doubt I will see as many as some of you posting here when I watch the rest of the game again.

 

[Ray_T]

Eke was open like a 7-11 for much of the day. He had 2 targets witn 1 reception.

I noticed that a couple times. didnt know it was this extensive, but then again I never got to watch the whole game.
Herbert is a bit of a gunslinger, so he does like to go deep. but he also has to know that teams will try to take this away from him so sometimes you gotta take what the defense gives you.
I dont know what else to say

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

so sometimes you gotta take what the defense gives you.

That sums it up in a nutshell. Dump it off, get the 1st down. Let your uber talented RB get the ball in space and see what happens. At the very least they would have had more continuity on offense. Ironically that might also force the defense to come up a little to defend the RB, which would allow for some of those deep shots to be effective.

Just bad football.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

the regression is real.

Really thought the new OC was going to unlock Herbert.

Dude had Eke wide open in the flat about 14 times in the 3rd/4th today, and just literally never looked his way.

Defenders were letting Ekeler run free because they knew the ball wasn’t going there.

Just absolutely bizarre.

Thought the same thing. Ekeler should have had close to 10 catches. WAY too many forces downfield. Same problem last week too.

And isn't this the exact reasoning for Dallas giving Kellen Moore the boot? He doesn't try to control the clock with the running game and likes to "take shots" instead of moving the sticks.

Yeah, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Outside of one long run by Kelley, the Chargers struggled to run the ball. But on those passing plays, Herbert ignored Ekeler in the flat at least a dozen+ times. He glanced at him once briefly, then chucked it into double coverage downfield.

Eke was open like a 7-11 for much of the day. He had 2 targets witn 1 reception.

Moore never ignited Pollard like that.

Last season, Pollard had 56 targets in 18 games - 3.1 targets per game. This season, Ekeler has 11 targets in 3 games - 3.7 targets per game.

It was foreseeable that Ekeler's targets would come down in 2023. I posted this in August:

New OC Moore has not typically targeted his RBs much.

Dallas targeted its RBs:
2022 - 90 times (~15% of targets)
2021 - 120 times (~18%)
2020 - 107 times (~18%)

Ekeler himself had 126 targets last season (~18%), and Chargers RBs collectively had ~26% of the targets. I can see the argument that Ekeler is a better receiving RB than the Cowboys RBs Moore had, though Pollard is pretty good. But I am expecting more of a vertical passing game from the Chargers in 2023, which implies fewer targets to Ekeler. Fewer targets could also contribute to fewer receiving TDs.

ok sure I get that - but in this specific game, the WRs were blanketed and Eke was wide open again and again. In one laughable sequence they were 2nd & 5, then 3rd and 5, and Eke had easy 1st downs but Herbert opted to throw deep into double coverage both times.

That's not on the coach. That's on Herbert.

I think it is being exaggerated a bit in this thread.

Herbert was 17/30. Remove Ekeler's 2 targets, and he was 16/28. Was Ekeler open on every one of those incompletions? I doubt it. For one thing, according to PFF, Ekeler had 2 pass blocking snaps. Unless those both resulted in sacks or scrambles, he couldn't have been targeted on those snaps.

I haven't had time to watch the entire game again, but I watched the first series. Herbert dropped back 4 times:

1. Completed pass to Ekeler
2. Targeted Palmer; DPI called; Ekeler was pass blocking
3. Herbert scrambled for 6 yards; Ekeler was not on the field, Kelley was at RB
4. On 3rd and 2, Herbert was sacked; Ekeler leaked out to the left flat, but Herbert's read started off on the right, and he was sacked before he could go through his progression and get to Ekeler, who wasn't ever even in Herbert's sightline

In that series, Herbert had an opportunity to target Ekeler once, and he did. There was no other opportunity due to coaching and playcalling, not Herbert.

I'm sure Herbert missed a few opportunities where he arguably should have targeted Ekeler, but I doubt I will see as many as some of you posting here when I watch the rest of the game again.

If you watch the 2nd half of that game you'll see that it's not exaggerated in the slightest.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Ekeler caught 177 balls the last two years. Seems odd that Herbert is ignoring him all of a sudden.

 

[Tau837]

Ekeler caught 177 balls the last two years. Seems odd that Herbert is ignoring him all of a sudden.

Not really. The last two years, the OC was Lombardi. This year, the OC is Moore. The offenses are different. It was expected that Moore's offense would throw downfield more and throw short less, including to RBs specifically.