Shogun coming to TV (again) (2 Viewers)

[timschochet]

Shogun by James Clavell is my favorite novel of all time. I first read it when I was 13 and have read it many many times since. I find it completely captivating.

The original miniseries with Richard Chamberlain was OK but its main problem was that that only told the story from his (Blackthorne’s) point of view. One of the great aspects of the novel is that we get everybody’s POV. Thus the main conflict of the novel- the titanic struggle between Toranaga and his opponents in 1600 Japan- was glossed over in the miniseries.

Now we have a new series coming out in January. It is supposed to have corrected this problem. Whether that means Japanese actors speaking to each other in clear English for us to understand (though it’s supposed to be Japanese) or in Japanese with subtitles, I do not know. I would prefer the former. But the previews look spectacular.

I’m probably going to be disappointed, (so many of these adaptations of my favorites turn out to be letdowns) but I’m excited anyhow.

 

[AAABatteries]

It does look good - will watch.

 

[Sand]

I remember watching the old one decades ago. 45 years ago? Damn, a long time. New one does look good.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I’ll watch. Love the book. Have you read musashi?

 

[timschochet]

I’ll watch. Love the book. Have you read musashi?

No.
I tried. I have tried many other books that people tell me, if I love Clavell I should love this too. But I don’t, I couldn’t get into it. So it may be less the subject matter than Clavell’s writing skills for me.

 

[higgins]

I’ll watch. Love the book. Have you read musashi?

Have you read “Mr. Ishida’s Bookstore”?

 

[timschochet]

I’ll watch. Love the book. Have you read musashi?

Have you read “Mr. Ishida’s Bookstore”?

Not recently. Another great writer though!

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I’ll watch. Love the book. Have you read musashi?

No.
I tried. I have tried many other books that people tell me, if I love Clavell I should love this too. But I don’t, I couldn’t get into it. So it may be less the subject matter than Clavell’s writing skills for me.

Yea. It’s a slog at times. But it’s an amazing story with a ton of life lessons in it, if one is looking.

 

[Ilov80s]

I hope it's good, I've been saying for awhile that I think TV/Hollywood is missing out on a great samurai epic. It seems like if done well to be a surefire massive hit. There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

 

[El Floppo]

There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

I havent noticed this... Can you explain?

Also.. we watched the original as a family and I really enjoyed it.

 

[Ilov80s]

There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

I havent noticed this... Can you explain?

Also.. we watched the original as a family and I really enjoyed it.

There’s just a huge interest among young people with almost anything Korean or Japanese from anime to manga to KPop. Lots of kids want to learn Japanese.

 

[El Floppo]

There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

I havent noticed this... Can you explain?

Also.. we watched the original as a family and I really enjoyed it.

There’s just a huge interest among young people with almost anything Korean or Japanese from anime to manga to KPop. Lots of kids want to learn Japanese.

thanks... my kids and frineds not so interested in translating that further, I don't think. but yeah- I guess the Kpop and Manga stuff is still a big thing.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I wonder if they will use the same era of Japanese that they did in the original. Toshiro Mifune read the script and translated all the Japanese into the correct language for the period just because he could.

 

[El Floppo]

I wonder if they will use the same era of Japanese that they did in the original. Toshiro Mifune read the script and translated all the Jampanese into the correct language for the period just because he could.

I didn't know that- cool!

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

 

[bigbottom]

There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

I havent noticed this... Can you explain?

Also.. we watched the original as a family and I really enjoyed it.

There’s just a huge interest among young people with almost anything Korean or Japanese from anime to manga to KPop. Lots of kids want to learn Japanese.

thanks... my kids and frineds not so interested in translating that further, I don't think. but yeah- I guess the Kpop and Manga stuff is still a big thing.

My kid (21 years old) is way way into anime and other aspects of Japanese culture, and took a Japanese history class this past semester. In fact, he’s so into it that he asked to accompany my wife and I on our trip to Tokyo in a month (he normally has no interest vacationing with his parents).

As far as Hollywood missing out on a Samurai epic, I thought The Last Samurai was quite good, though it was way more modern and not about imperial Japan at all. There are definitely some enjoyable more recent titles on Netflix.

 

[Ilov80s]

There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

I havent noticed this... Can you explain?

Also.. we watched the original as a family and I really enjoyed it.

There’s just a huge interest among young people with almost anything Korean or Japanese from anime to manga to KPop. Lots of kids want to learn Japanese.

thanks... my kids and frineds not so interested in translating that further, I don't think. but yeah- I guess the Kpop and Manga stuff is still a big thing.

My kid (21 years old) is way way into anime and other aspects of Japanese culture, and took a Japanese history class this past semester. In fact, he’s so into it that he asked to accompany my wife and I on our trip to Tokyo in a month (he normally has no interest vacationing with his parents).

As far as Hollywood missing out on a Samurai epic, I thought The Last Samurai was quite good, though it was way more modern and not about imperial Japan at all. There are definitely some enjoyable more recent titles on Netflix.

Even then we are talking about 20 years ago and the star is a white guy. I think a Japanese samurai TV show done with high level production could be epic and a big hit.

 

[bigbottom]

There is so much interest in Japanese culture right now.

I havent noticed this... Can you explain?

Also.. we watched the original as a family and I really enjoyed it.

There’s just a huge interest among young people with almost anything Korean or Japanese from anime to manga to KPop. Lots of kids want to learn Japanese.

thanks... my kids and frineds not so interested in translating that further, I don't think. but yeah- I guess the Kpop and Manga stuff is still a big thing.

My kid (21 years old) is way way into anime and other aspects of Japanese culture, and took a Japanese history class this past semester. In fact, he’s so into it that he asked to accompany my wife and I on our trip to Tokyo in a month (he normally has no interest vacationing with his parents).

As far as Hollywood missing out on a Samurai epic, I thought The Last Samurai was quite good, though it was way more modern and not about imperial Japan at all. There are definitely some enjoyable more recent titles on Netflix.

Even then we are talking about 20 years ago and the star is a white guy. I think a Japanese samurai TV show done with high level production could be epic and a big hit.

Kingdom and Kingdom 2 (movies not tv shows) on Netflix are both good. More about feudal Japan than samurai culture but in the ballpark.

 

[bigbottom]

Now we have a new series coming out in January. It is supposed to have corrected this problem. Whether that means Japanese actors speaking to each other in clear English for us to understand (though it’s supposed to be Japanese) or in Japanese with subtitles, I do not know. I would prefer the former.

Man, I would hate that. It’s obviously always been very common with American movies, but it just takes me out of the film, particularly with Japanese characters who should be speaking Japanese. I grew up watching Japanese serials (lived in Japan as a child and spent many summers with Japanese relatives in Hawaii), many of them about Samurai and just got used to hearing Japanese dialogue from a very young age.

 

[timschochet]

Now we have a new series coming out in January. It is supposed to have corrected this problem. Whether that means Japanese actors speaking to each other in clear English for us to understand (though it’s supposed to be Japanese) or in Japanese with subtitles, I do not know. I would prefer the former.

Man, I would hate that. It’s obviously always been very common with American movies, but it just takes me out of the film, particularly with Japanese characters who should be speaking Japanese. I grew up watching Japanese serials (lived in Japan as a child and spent many summers with Japanese relatives in Hawaii), many of them about Samurai and just got used to hearing Japanese dialogue from a very young age.

I get you. But what I am afraid of is that the producers, knowing the American audience impatience with subtitles, will seek to reduce the complexity of the plot, or center it completely around Blackthorne rather than Toranaga, which is exactly what happened in the first miniseries. But we’ll have to see how this plays out,

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Now we have a new series coming out in January. It is supposed to have corrected this problem. Whether that means Japanese actors speaking to each other in clear English for us to understand (though it’s supposed to be Japanese) or in Japanese with subtitles, I do not know. I would prefer the former.

Man, I would hate that. It’s obviously always been very common with American movies, but it just takes me out of the film, particularly with Japanese characters who should be speaking Japanese. I grew up watching Japanese serials (lived in Japan as a child and spent many summers with Japanese relatives in Hawaii), many of them about Samurai and just got used to hearing Japanese dialogue from a very young age.

I get you. But what I am afraid of is that the producers, knowing the American audience impatience with subtitles, will seek to reduce the complexity of the plot, or center it completely around Blackthorne rather than Toranaga, which is exactly what happened in the first miniseries. But we’ll have to see how this plays out,

A major part of the book has to with Blackthorne understanding more and more of the Japanese. It's vital to the plot.

I would prefer the Japanese speak their language with more subtitles as he learns the language. And nowadays, closed captioning is an option for those who need it.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I remember this being really soap opera-y, but then most of the event mini-series were back on the 70s/80s. It could also be that my feeble memory is confusing it with The Thorn Birds.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Lonesome Dove was the apogee of the form, and one of the best films of any kind.

 

[northern exposure]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Don't forget about "Roots".

 

[Ilov80s]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Don't forget about "Roots".

I would add 3 great HBO mini-series: John Adams, Mildred Pierce and Band of Brothers

 

[Orange&Blue]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Don't forget about "Roots".

I would add 3 great HBO mini-series: John Adams, Mildred Pierce and Band of Brothers

John Adams was good? i recall seeing trailer for it, but never watched

 

[Ilov80s]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Don't forget about "Roots".

I would add 3 great HBO mini-series: John Adams, Mildred Pierce and Band of Brothers

John Adams was good? i recall seeing trailer for it, but never watched

Oh yeah absolutely fantastic. It’s been 15 years since I’ve seen it but it was one of the best miniseries I’ve ever seen.

 

[Sand]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Lonesome Dove was the apogee of the form, and one of the best films of any kind.

Source material being one of the best books ever sure doesn't hurt.

 

[skol asylum]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Don't forget about "Roots".

I would add 3 great HBO mini-series: John Adams, Mildred Pierce and Band of Brothers

John Adams was good? i recall seeing trailer for it, but never watched

Started out really good. Later episodes werent as interesting IIRC.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Pre Netflix ... Shogun and Lonesome Dove were the best 2 miniseries to ever hit TV.

Don't forget about "Roots".

I would add 3 great HBO mini-series: John Adams, Mildred Pierce and Band of Brothers

John Adams was good? i recall seeing trailer for it, but never watched

Started out really good. Later episodes werent as interesting IIRC.

My major problem with it was that they didn't pay the power bill. It was so underlit that it was hard to see the action. I get there was no electricity (except for Franklin), but oy.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I get you. But what I am afraid of is that the producers, knowing the American audience impatience with subtitles,,

That may be slowly changing. A large part of the 25 and under crowd in the US consumes a ton of anime.

Also, hits like Money Heist, and massive hits like Squid Game show that American's will watch subtitled shows in large numbers.

 

[bigbottom]

I get you. But what I am afraid of is that the producers, knowing the American audience impatience with subtitles,,

That may be slowly changing. A large part of the 25 and under crowd in the US consumes a ton of anime.

Also, hits like Money Heist, and massive hits like Squid Game show that American's will watch subtitled shows in large numbers.

Watched Equalizer 3 this weekend and can’t imagine a much more mainstream movie. I appreciated that when Italians were speaking with Italians, they spoke Italian.

Movies like Hunt for Red October - it is just so ridiculous that all of the crew aboard a Soviet submarine were speaking to each other in English.

 

[belljr]

I've always been enamored with most things of Asian culture, especially most of the martial arts/historic samurai type things. Maybe I was a kid of the Bruce Lee/kung fu era... I don't know but I will definitely watch

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Movies like Hunt for Red October - it is just so ridiculous that all of the crew aboard a Soviet submarine were speaking to each other in English.

Not to mention the captain's glorious Scottish accent.

 

[timschochet]

I get you. But what I am afraid of is that the producers, knowing the American audience impatience with subtitles,,

That may be slowly changing. A large part of the 25 and under crowd in the US consumes a ton of anime.

Also, hits like Money Heist, and massive hits like Squid Game show that American's will watch subtitled shows in large numbers.

Watched Equalizer 3 this weekend and can’t imagine a much more mainstream movie. I appreciated that when Italians were speaking with Italians, they spoke Italian.

Movies like Hunt for Red October - it is just so ridiculous that all of the crew aboard a Soviet submarine were speaking to each other in English.

Yeah we disagree. I don’t care about accuracy. I want good intelligent entertainment. I have no problem with Nazis with English accents.

 

[timschochet]

Also, the entire novel by Clavell save a few lines is in English. Would you guys have preferred that 2/3rds be in Japanese and you could struggle with a dictionary or an interpreter? That makes no sense to me.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Movies like Hunt for Red October - it is just so ridiculous that all of the crew aboard a Soviet submarine were speaking to each other in English.

Not to mention the captain's glorious Scottish accent.

For any one who likes to emerse themselves into movies or TV, stuff like this you mentioned is just bonkers. It panders to a segment of movie goers who the producers assume is not intelligent enough to follow subtitles.

 

[timschochet]

Movies like Hunt for Red October - it is just so ridiculous that all of the crew aboard a Soviet submarine were speaking to each other in English.

Not to mention the captain's glorious Scottish accent.

For any one who likes to emerse themselves into movies or TV, stuff like this you mentioned is just bonkers. It panders to a segment of movie goers who the producers assume is not intelligent enough to follow subtitles.

Again not necessarily. Tom Clancy didn’t write the Russian part of that novel in Russian; he wrote it in English. He wanted the reader to understand the story.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Again not necessarily. Tom Clancy didn’t write the Russian part of that novel in Russian; he wrote it in English. He wanted the reader to understand the story.

I am not sure I understand the point here. Subtitles are not needed for books, as it makes no sense. Books are written in the language that is for the intended audience. There is no visual or audio component to a book.

How does reading an English subtitle in a movie make you not understand what is happening?

Did you really watch Squid Game or Money Heist and not understand everything that was happening?

 

[timschochet]

Again not necessarily. Tom Clancy didn’t write the Russian part of that novel in Russian; he wrote it in English. He wanted the reader to understand the story.

I am not sure I understand the point here. Subtitles are not needed for books, as it makes no sense. Books are written in the language that is for the intended audience. There is no visual or audio component to a book.

How does reading an English subtitle in a movie make you not understand what is happening?

Did you really watch Squid Game or Money Heist and not understand everything that was happening?

I did.

And yes if the producers really are willing to translate the complexity of the plot of Shogun into Japanese then it will be fine, better than fine. But if they get worried about the long stretches with subtitles which would be inevitable, then my fear is that they will simplify the plot or otherwise focus 95% on Blackthorne as the original miniseries did. But obviously I hope I’m wrong.

 

[bigbottom]

Movies like Hunt for Red October - it is just so ridiculous that all of the crew aboard a Soviet submarine were speaking to each other in English.

Not to mention the captain's glorious Scottish accent.

For any one who likes to emerse themselves into movies or TV, stuff like this you mentioned is just bonkers. It panders to a segment of movie goers who the producers assume is not intelligent enough to follow subtitles.

Again not necessarily. Tom Clancy didn’t write the Russian part of that novel in Russian; he wrote it in English. He wanted the reader to understand the story.

Right. Clancy was providing an English translation of what they were saying. Just like subtitles do.

 

[bigbottom]

Again not necessarily. Tom Clancy didn’t write the Russian part of that novel in Russian; he wrote it in English. He wanted the reader to understand the story.

I am not sure I understand the point here. Subtitles are not needed for books, as it makes no sense. Books are written in the language that is for the intended audience. There is no visual or audio component to a book.

How does reading an English subtitle in a movie make you not understand what is happening?

Did you really watch Squid Game or Money Heist and not understand everything that was happening?

I think modern audiences are increasingly just fine with subtitles. As you note, Squid Game was a smash hit. And heck, Parasite was entirely subtitled (yes, it was a foreign film) and won Best Picture.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

My wife sees subtitles and she says this is dumb and walks out of the room. Hell, she did that for the start of the Godfather

 

[NewlyRetired]

I have found that there is a high correlation of people who do not like subtitles with people who preferred full screen movies over wide screen movies because "full screen fills the screen" back with the old 4:3 format tv's.

This does not make them smart or dumb but does highlight that people enjoy entertainment in different ways.

 

[FatMax]

I have found that there is a high correlation of people who do not like subtitles with people who preferred full screen movies over wide screen movies because "full screen fills the screen" back with the old 4:3 format tv's.

This does not make them smart or dumb but does highlight that people enjoy entertainment in different ways.

My preference, in order would be: Everyone speaking English > Subtitles > English dubbed.

I don't think I'm missing anything by hearing English rather than reading it. Though in the context of Shogun, I could be wrong. I've never read the book or seen the miniseries, and only loosely know what it is about, so my opinion on this one specifically ain't worth much.

But I can't think of a single person who preferred a full screen 4:3 over the widescreen. You definitely did lose something there, quite literally. And the auto-conversions were awful.

 

[Gr00vus]

Looking forward to this remake. The novel is one of my favorites, and the original show is probably my favorite mini series.

I'd prefer Japanese audio with subtitles for the Japanese characters (and Spanish, and Latin audio with subtitles for those parts of the dialogue as well). Though the book was written in English, the interplay of the various languages was explicitly noted and did contribute to plot and events. Of course, this would mean very little English audio, so I won't be surprised if it doesn't go that way.

 

[Ilov80s]

I would prefer subtitles but I think it they want the proper budget, the producers are likely to demand English because that’s going to draw the largest audience- right?

Is there an international audience for Shogun?

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

How does reading an English subtitle in a movie make you not understand what is happening?

I can't watch the action or the emotions of the characters while reading. I miss half of everything. I don't mind subtitles, but I have to watch the whole thing twice to get the entire story.

 

[NewlyRetired]

But I can't think of a single person who preferred a full screen 4:3 over the widescreen. You definitely did lose something there, quite literally. And the auto-conversions were awful.

You would be shocked then how many people back in the day were convinced full screen gave more of the movie than wide screen.

It was so bad that the studios were extremely reluctant to release anything to home video OAR when 4:3 sets were heavily in the majority.

 

[Ilov80s]

I find subtitles sometimes easier to follow because it forces me to pay close attention. If it's in English, it's much easier to get distracted and just sort of listen to follow a long.