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Shooting at Texas school - Kids among victims (2 Viewers)

It was just last week and we can hardly remember that one. We've become so used to them they don't leave lasting impressions.


I think you're being disingenuous here.  Everyone probably knows it as the "Buffalo Shooting", not "The Tops Shooting".  The fact that people don't exactly know the name of the place of where it happened doesn't mean we've become used to them. 

 
Thanks.  I just know it as "Buffalo Shooting".  :shrug:

TBH, these shootings are hard to watch and listen too so I try not to inundate myself with too much.  It breaks my heart the tragedy of these children and families.
It is hard to watch and listen to, but it's still important to learn about these events in order to try to come up with solutions.  

 
Yeah, I know, but that doesn't mean that if you don't know every detail of every shooting somehow you're "used to it". 
I don't think those were my words.  I was more saying that they happen so fast that sometimes we miss things and details blur.   I had to pause and think for a bit what he was talking about too.  

ETA:  looked and saw that my reply quoted that remark.   Hopefully the above clarified more my intention and thought.  

 
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Harden schools, period. 

We dont have a history of mass shootings at baseball stadiums yet they are hardened. 

This is inexcusable.  

 
Omg did you guys see this revised timeline?? The officers in charge should be brought up on criminal charges.  This timeline is unbelievable.  Keep in mind as you read this that the shooter wasn’t taken down until 12:50.

11:30 - First 911 call is made.

11:35 - seven officers arrive at the school and approach the locked classrooms where the gunman had barricaded himself.

12:03 - Inside the school, there were as many as 19 law enforcement officers in the hallway.

12:03 - police receive a 911 call from a girl who identifies herself and whispers she's in Room 112. with the gunman.

12:10 - she calls back and says there are multiple people dead. 

12:15 - members of the Border Patrol tactical team, known as BORTAC, arrived with shields.

12:16 - girl calls back and says there are eight to nine students alive.

12:19 - Another student calls 911 from Room 111 (also where the shooter is) and hangs up at the urging of another student.

12:21 - three shots can be heard on yet another 911 call.

12:22 - 12:50 - Several more calls to 911 from desperate kids, still hiding in the same room as the killer.

12:50 -  cops enter room and take out the shooter.

AT 12:03 THERE WERE 19 POLICE IN THE HALLWAY, AND 911 WAS INFORMED THERE WERE KIDS ALIVE IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE SHOOTER.  THE KIDS KEPT CALLING 911, BUT THE COPS DIDN'T ACT FOR 47 MINUTES.
Was it a BORTAC team or just a member who arrived? They or he was ultimately the one who breached the door after the janitor unlocked it right?

 
Absolutely. And:

Because I will counter with hundreds of baseball games every year without incident where it works. 
I see you missed my post that shows armed security in schools is ineffective. Its on the last page. Shooters still target armed schools. And in no case has an armed guard in a school stopped a shooting.

 
If you dont think it works you can just move on to clicking your heels three times hoping 400 million guns suddenly disappear. Because we KNOW that isnt going to work. 
I don't want to make them disappear. I want better control over who has them and restrict how easily they can be acquired. Something more than just having our kids go to school behind 8' fencing, metal detectors, and armed police.

And eliminating armed shooter drills where 11 years old are taught to smear the blood of their dead classmates on them so they can play dead to survive. 

 
My paraphrasing wont do it justice, but, I will try. Parentheses and all cap emphasis kare mine. 

1- The focus should be on the mental illness problems we have in this country. Every single one of these shooters fits a very similar profile and the warning signs are there ahead of time. 

2- There is no substitute for a strong family unit with a mother and father. None. 

3- (knowing we dont have 100% control of #1 and #2, #3 becomes the most important implementation wise) Harden the Schools. Fully attainable.  A single entrance with metal detectors and no one gets in until they are vetted and pass screening. (No different than going to a ballgame, you wont get into a pro stadium with a gun, nor a courthouse).  We give 58 million to protect all of Ukraine, we can do the same with our own children. Armed and TRAINED security on staff at every school. Let teachers be TRAINED and conceal carry. Take down the stupid "gun free zone" advertisement signs for mass shootings.  

4- FUND police and first responders.  

:yes:


1) this has been stated by both sides for a while and still mental health is ignored come budget time.

2) and how do you legislate that?  Doesn't help when both parents have to work full time.

3) "Let teachers be TRAINED and conceal carry."  Dumb.  I will never support that.  I mentioned hardening schools earlier as they do in Israel, but that isn't the only thing they do. 

4) how would that help here?  40% of the cities budget went to police. A town of 20k had a swat team.  Give them more money so they can have an armored assault vehicle to show on parades?  Give them more money so they could have 22 police in the hallway with their finger up their ### instead of 19?  

The solution is not more guns.  We already have what 400M in this country? 

 
I don't want to make them disappear. I want better control over who has them and restrict how easily they can be acquired. Something more than just having our kids go to school behind 8' fencing, metal detectors, and armed police.

And eliminating armed shooter drills where 11 years old are taught to smear the blood of their dead classmates on them so they can play dead to survive. 
That's great. While you're working on that legislation that has a snowball's chance in hell of passing, let's harden the schools. 

 
So I can't buy pseudoephedrine products without a background check, but an 18 year old can buy as many AR-15s as he can afford without the same?
I was under the impression he purchased and passed a NICS background check, which is more in depth than a PE check. 

Am I missing something? 

 
1) this has been stated by both sides for a while and still mental health is ignored come budget time.

2) and how do you legislate that?  Doesn't help when both parents have to work full time.

3) "Let teachers be TRAINED and conceal carry."  Dumb.  I will never support that.  I mentioned hardening schools earlier as they do in Israel, but that isn't the only thing they do. 

4) how would that help here?  40% of the cities budget went to police. A town of 20k had a swat team.  Give them more money so they can have an armored assault vehicle to show on parades?  Give them more money so they could have 22 police in the hallway with their finger up their ### instead of 19?  

The solution is not more guns.  We already have what 400M in this country? 
#3 solves the immediate problem.  

I'm sure the teachers who want to can use one of the 400 million already in existence.  

 
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Omg did you guys see this revised timeline?? The officers in charge should be brought up on criminal charges.  This timeline is unbelievable.  Keep in mind as you read this that the shooter wasn’t taken down until 12:50.

11:30 - First 911 call is made.

11:35 - seven officers arrive at the school and approach the locked classrooms where the gunman had barricaded himself.

12:03 - Inside the school, there were as many as 19 law enforcement officers in the hallway.

12:03 - police receive a 911 call from a girl who identifies herself and whispers she's in Room 112. with the gunman.

12:10 - she calls back and says there are multiple people dead. 

12:15 - members of the Border Patrol tactical team, known as BORTAC, arrived with shields.

12:16 - girl calls back and says there are eight to nine students alive.

12:19 - Another student calls 911 from Room 111 (also where the shooter is) and hangs up at the urging of another student.

12:21 - three shots can be heard on yet another 911 call.

12:22 - 12:50 - Several more calls to 911 from desperate kids, still hiding in the same room as the killer.

12:50 -  cops enter room and take out the shooter.

AT 12:03 THERE WERE 19 POLICE IN THE HALLWAY, AND 911 WAS INFORMED THERE WERE KIDS ALIVE IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE SHOOTER.  THE KIDS KEPT CALLING 911, BUT THE COPS DIDN'T ACT FOR 47 MINUTES.
yeah, i don't get at all why the cops stood outside.    mind blowing.

 
If we can spend to protect them, why cant we to protect our own children?  
The best way to protect our children are the solutions that President Trump avoided discussing today: don’t allow 18 year olds to buy AR-15s. Red flag laws. Universal background checks. 
In addition to those measures, I’d be for hardening schools if it worked. But studies that have already been posted several times in this forum suggest it doesn’t. And in any case, the gun restriction measures are far more vital. 

 
The best way to protect our children are the solutions that President Trump avoided discussing today: don’t allow 18 year olds to buy AR-15s. Red flag laws. Universal background checks. 
In addition to those measures, I’d be for hardening schools if it worked. But studies that have already been posted several times in this forum suggest it doesn’t. And in any case, the gun restriction measures are far more vital. 
It doesnt work when your definitions of "hardened" and "AR-15" arent founded in reality. 

 
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In addition to those measures, I’d be for hardening schools if it worked. But studies that have already been posted several times in this forum suggest it doesn’t. And in any case, the gun restriction measures are far more vital. 
A trained good guy with a gun literally stopped the Texas shooting. Locking the back door may well have stopped the Texas shooting. 

Maybe we can't get alpha dogs for every school but tier 3 guys with current training are still going deter or stop this #### the majority of the time (and not talking about these incompetent security officers most schools use.. no wonder the data isn't great). 

Schools don't have to look like Alcatraz to make a difference.  On site security don't have to be elite operators to make a difference, 

 
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The best way to protect our children are the solutions that President Trump avoided discussing today: don’t allow 18 year olds to buy AR-15s. Red flag laws. Universal background checks. 
In addition to those measures, I’d be for hardening schools if it worked. But studies that have already been posted several times in this forum suggest it doesn’t. And in any case, the gun restriction measures are far more vital. 
Have you actually posted any studies? I know you posted a blurb of one, but you had to pay to get the details. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
This data is muddy.

Why would these numbers not translate among the races? 

Are rural men more likely to commit suicide because rural gun ownership is much higher or are rural men much more likely to commit suicide and then they buoy the stats of gun ownership/suicide? 
There are other studies I've seen talked about that control for culture a little more, like THIS one.  

I've seen a similar one with the Israeli army.   They implemented rules such having to leave your weapon on base and saw a 57% drop in suicides.   

All these are also in correlation in studies and data when measures are put in place to slow down the means of suicide.  Guns are a very lethal, quick method to use with very little in the ways to intervene and save the person.    All the info I've seen links to a heavy link to access to guns and #s of death by suicide.   Certainly there are other factors at plays as to why different groups would be more or less likely to get to that point, but there is a lot of info that points to the speed/effectiveness of the method of suicide being the primary driver of whether it's successful, therefore the number of deaths.  

 
Harden schools, period. 

We dont have a history of mass shootings at baseball stadiums yet they are hardened. 

This is inexcusable.  
start with removing schools as Gun Free Zones

encourage school employees to be trained in the use of firearms and to have weapons available at the school. 

stop giving shooters their 15 minutes of fame on every news and cable channel

 
Pretty obvious flaws in that research letter IMO.

The database they cited had 1550 shootings from 1970-2019. They whittled that down to 133 and included some events where somebody brought a gun to school and didnt even fire it. 

The other issue at play is does the death count include the shooter? (I dont see where they specified one way or another). 

If you end up with a bunch of non shootings in a reduced dataset and a bunch of shootings where one person died and it was the shooter, killed by a armed guard, it seems like their could be some big problems with the data. 

When things are released with very counterintuitive data and no good reasons are provided for that, i have a lot of skepticism. 

 

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