Shooting at Texas school - Kids among victims (2 Viewers)

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Ooof 

 

Defunding seems too passive for you, I gather? You wanna abolish the police entirely?  

I dunno, man. I don't think I can get on board with that. I mean sure, they're useless when it comes to doing big things like stopping the mass murder of schoolchildren, and and we waste countless tax dollars on them every year, and 95% of what they do could be handled by unarmed government agents, and large swaths of the country has justifiably lost faith in them (you know, because of all the lying and killing and racism).

But it's still tough for me to commit to something that extreme. I think defunding and diverting resources to places where we'll get a lot more return on the investment of our tax dollars makes more sense.

I'm open to hearing otherwise, though.

 

[[icon]]

This is from USA Today from the press conference today.

The gunman fired shots at the school, then he entered the building through a door a teacher had left propped open and began shooting into the adjoining classrooms where the massacre occurred at 11:33 a.m., McCraw said. At least 100 rounds were fired, investigators determined based on audio evidence.

Three police officers from the Uvalde Police Department entered the school within two minutes and were followed by four others, three from the police department and one sheriff's deputy, McCraw said.

Two of the officers who first entered the school received grazing wounds from the suspect in an initial encounter with him, and after that, police did not engage the suspect for over an hour, according to McCraw's timeline. 

The gunman fired at 11:37 a.m., 11:38 a.m., 11:40 a.m. and 11:44 a.m., McCraw said. More police arrived by 11:51 a.m. and by 12:03 p.m. — as many as 19 police officers were in the school hallway, he added. Before they breached, officers acquired keys from a janitor because the two classroom doors were locked, McCraw said.

So seven police officers were in the school prior to the shooters firing at 11:37, 11:38, 11:40 and 11:44 and did nothing?  They sat and listened to these kids and teachers get shot?  Then they waited over another hour before anyone went in to confront the shooter.  One 18 year old had the 7 of them sitting pat while killing 10 year olds?

Jesus... that's raw cowardice. 

Thanks for sharing. 

 

[-fish-]

Reduction. Less of.  DEFUND. 

If you dont know what it means how can you say nobody got rid of police. 

That's not what it means, rocket scientist.

 

[[icon]]

Defunding seems too passive for you, I gather? You wanna abolish the police entirely?  

I dunno, man. I don't think I can get on board with that. I mean sure, they're useless when it comes to doing big things like stopping the mass murder of schoolchildren, and and we waste countless tax dollars on them every year, and 95% of what they do could be handled by unarmed government agents, and large swaths of the country has justifiably lost faith in them (you know, because of all the lying and killing and racism).

But it's still tough for me to commit to something that extreme. I think defunding and diverting resources to places where we'll get a lot more return on the investment of our tax dollars makes more sense.

I'm open to hearing otherwise, though.

What on earth are you going on about? 

While those in the profession far from perfect, I've got an immense amount of respect for most law enforcement officers. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

What on earth are you going on about? 

While those in the profession far from perfect, I've got an immense amount of respect for most law enforcement officers. 

That was satire, amigo. I know where you're coming from.

It's just that your actual position is so unfathomable to me, and so obviously at odds with the evidence I've seen about just how widespread the abuses of power, the excessive use of force, the lack of concern for the welfare of the community, and the hardcore racism are in the American law enforcement community, that I preferred to pretend you were coming at me from the other direction.

Hope this explanation helps!  Were you satisfied with my evidence in support of pre-1970s views on the Second Amendment in the other thread?  I was enjoying that convo.

 

[dkp993]

Haven't heard that anywhere else. Most reporting indicates LEO stayed outside the school restricting entry to parents/etc. Not sure where the truth will land. 

Also read report that the Border Control Hero who finally took action took a bunch of rounds to the shield and one to the head (grazed wound, have seen images) immediately upon entering... then killed the shooter. 

This is from USA Today from the press conference today.

The gunman fired shots at the school, then he entered the building through a door a teacher had left propped open and began shooting into the adjoining classrooms where the massacre occurred at 11:33 a.m., McCraw said. At least 100 rounds were fired, investigators determined based on audio evidence.

Three police officers from the Uvalde Police Department entered the school within two minutes and were followed by four others, three from the police department and one sheriff's deputy, McCraw said.

Two of the officers who first entered the school received grazing wounds from the suspect in an initial encounter with him, and after that, police did not engage the suspect for over an hour, according to McCraw's timeline. 

The gunman fired at 11:37 a.m., 11:38 a.m., 11:40 a.m. and 11:44 a.m., McCraw said. More police arrived by 11:51 a.m. and by 12:03 p.m. — as many as 19 police officers were in the school hallway, he added. Before they breached, officers acquired keys from a janitor because the two classroom doors were locked, McCraw said.

So seven police officers were in the school prior to the shooters firing at 11:37, 11:38, 11:40 and 11:44 and did nothing?  They sat and listened to these kids and teachers get shot?  Then they waited over another hour before anyone went in to confront the shooter.  One 18 year old had the 7 of them sitting pat while killing

The more information that comes out the more furious I get.  I honestly haven’t been this mad at anything in a long long time.  The link below makes me ####### sick.  The stories from the surviving kids, the 911 calls from kids pleading for help and dying while LEO stood outside.  That mother####er was playing music while casually walking around shooting these kids!!!!  WTF man.  
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/27/us/uvalde-texas-elementary-school-shooting-friday/index.html

*yes I know it’s CNN but its the link I could find at the time with the most current info.  

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Or, you know, quit.

And I honestly just can’t swallow that pill anyway. There were 10 year old terrified innocent kids being murdered one by one and they stood around and did nothing. What kind of cowardly snowflake do you have to be to let the words of a bunch of critics keep you from using your training to charge in with your gun and take out an 18 year old?

It’s mind boggling to me that they did nothing. It may be even more mind boggling to me that there are folks apparently willing to defend their inaction and even blame it on their critics. What actually happened is that these police officers proved their critics right.

Everyone on both sides of the aisle should be hopping mad about this. They just trashed the argument of good guys with guns being able to stop bad guys with guns. They trashed the idea that police are there to protect the innocent and that we should give deference to them because they’re willing to put their lives on the line. 

The more that comes out, the angrier I am getting about this. We can talk a lot about all the other ways that we can prevent stuff like this from happening, but it turns out that maybe a whole lot of what happened in this case could have been avoided if these officers had simply done their job.

Yup. It's time to ignore the cosplay cowards of the right.  And that's the nicest thing I can say about all of them.

 

[Rich Conway]

This is from USA Today from the press conference today.

The gunman fired shots at the school, then he entered the building through a door a teacher had left propped open and began shooting into the adjoining classrooms where the massacre occurred at 11:33 a.m., McCraw said. At least 100 rounds were fired, investigators determined based on audio evidence.

Three police officers from the Uvalde Police Department entered the school within two minutes and were followed by four others, three from the police department and one sheriff's deputy, McCraw said.

Two of the officers who first entered the school received grazing wounds from the suspect in an initial encounter with him, and after that, police did not engage the suspect for over an hour, according to McCraw's timeline. 

The gunman fired at 11:37 a.m., 11:38 a.m., 11:40 a.m. and 11:44 a.m., McCraw said. More police arrived by 11:51 a.m. and by 12:03 p.m. — as many as 19 police officers were in the school hallway, he added. Before they breached, officers acquired keys from a janitor because the two classroom doors were locked, McCraw said.

So seven police officers were in the school prior to the shooters firing at 11:37, 11:38, 11:40 and 11:44 and did nothing?  They sat and listened to these kids and teachers get shot?  Then they waited over another hour before anyone went in to confront the shooter.  One 18 year old had the 7 of them sitting pat while killing 10 year olds?

If this timeline is accurate, every one of those cops should be fired and charged with multiple counts of accessory to murder.

 

[TLEF316]

Jesus. Absolute cowards staying the hallway like that.  Yeah....I know its scary. I honestly dont know what I'd do in that situation....but its not my job.

19 armed cops standing around while this lunatic kills children. Shameful.

 

[HellToupee]

The more information that comes out the more furious I get.  I honestly haven’t been this mad at anything in a long long time.  The link below makes me ####### sick.  The stories from the surviving kids, the 911 calls from kids pleading for help and dying while LEO stood outside.  That mother####er was playing music while casually walking around shooting these kids!!!!  WTF man.  
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/27/us/uvalde-texas-elementary-school-shooting-friday/index.html

*yes I know it’s CNN but its the link I could find at the time with the most current info.  

“The gunman next went through a door into an adjoining classroom. Miah heard screams and more gunshots. When the firing stopped, the shooter started playing music that was "sad, like you want people to die," the girl said.”

how the hell could the police in the building just sit & wait

 

[[icon]]

The more information that comes out the more furious I get.  I honestly haven’t been this mad at anything in a long long time.  The link below makes me ####### sick.  The stories from the surviving kids, the 911 calls from kids pleading for help and dying while LEO stood outside.  That mother####er was playing music while casually walking around shooting these kids!!!!  WTF man.  
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/27/us/uvalde-texas-elementary-school-shooting-friday/index.html

*yes I know it’s CNN but its the link I could find at the time with the most current info.  

I'm not as averse to CNN as some folks. I think they're guilty of twisting facts to fit an agenda as do most media outlets. Just gotta take in all you can and try to filter out the BS.

Horrible Horrible scenario. :(   

 

[Max Power]

We're going to blame the teacher for leaving the door open too right?

 

[jobarules]

Haven't heard that anywhere else. Most reporting indicates LEO stayed outside the school restricting entry to parents/etc. Not sure where the truth will land. 

Also read report that the Border Control Hero who finally took action took a bunch of rounds to the shield and one to the head (grazed wound, have seen images) immediately upon entering... then killed the shooter. 

Yes and he was a father of a kid in another classroom

 

[BeTheMatch]

Donating to a Go Fund Me for a child who was just shot at her elementary school so that her family can ensure she can get adequate health care pretty much sums up living in the U.S.

 

[The Football Freak]

“The gunman next went through a door into an adjoining classroom. Miah heard screams and more gunshots. When the firing stopped, the shooter started playing music that was "sad, like you want people to die," the girl said.”

how the hell could the police in the building just sit & wait

Right? It’s infuriating. We have dads and moms begging to go in to save their babies, and these “men” wait patiently in the hallway. We know they could hear the shots. Could they hear the screams, too? This is repulsive cowardice, imo.

 

[dkp993]

“The gunman next went through a door into an adjoining classroom. Miah heard screams and more gunshots. When the firing stopped, the shooter started playing music that was "sad, like you want people to die," the girl said.”

how the hell could the police in the building just sit & wait

Honestly when I read that I had to resist the urge  with everything I have to throw my phone through the wall.  

 

[The Football Freak]

Honestly when I read that I had to resist the urge  with everything I have to throw my phone through the wall.  

This 

 

[jobarules]

Those cops are #######

Not sure how that's an argument for defunding the police. If anything I'd say the opposite. Increase the budget so that they don't hire a bunch of ####### and make the salary commensurate with the risks they take with their lives everyday. Increase the budget to get them better equipment and training so they don't act like ####### ####### like this police department acted.

 

[The Football Freak]

Those cops are #######

Not sure how that's an argument for defunding the police. If anything I'd say the opposite. Increase the budget so that they don't hire a bunch of ####### and make the salary commensurate with the risks they take with their lives everyday. Increase the budget to get them better equipment and training so they don't act like ####### ####### like this police department acted.

I hope they carry this shame until the day they die. They are abject cowards, and tarnish the uniform they wear. 

 

[[icon]]

Yes and he was a father of a kid in another classroom

There were reports of multiple BORTAC agents responding. Yep. 

Heard the one who had a kid in the school and a wife as a teacher was getting his hair cut.... heard about it and grabbed the barbers shotgun and went right to the school 

The guy being shown in pictures who seems to be the one who got Ramos reportedly was told to not enter, REPORTEDLY yelled  "WTF are you guys just standing here"... grabbed his plate carrier (armor) and rifle out of his trunk, grabbed an entry shield from one of the cops standing around, said "#### you (slur)" to the cops, and went in. 

Supposedly he took 16 rounds to the shield and one grazed his head before he killed Ramos. 

All obviously unconfirmed aside from the headshot (images). 

That's how it's done. Absent a confirmed hostage situation, grab what you can and get into the damn fight, and end the mother####er's life. If he gets you, so be it. You went down fighting. 

 

[The Football Freak]

There were reports of multiple BORTAC agents responding. Yep. 

Heard the one who had a kid in the school and a wife as a teacher was getting his hair cut.... heard about it and grabbed the barbers shotgun and went right to the school 

The guy being shown in pictures who seems to be the one who got Ramos reportedly was told to not enter, REPORTEDLY yelled  "WTF are you guys just standing here"... grabbed his plate carrier (armor) and rifle out of his trunk, grabbed an entry shield from one of the cops standing around, said "#### you (slur)" to the cops, and went in. 

Supposedly he took 16 rounds to the shield and one grazed his head before he killed Ramos. 

All obviously unconfirmed aside from the headshot (images). 

That is how it’s done. Let this guy train the new cops they hire.

 

[Desert_Power]

IIRC, police also had a similar delay when responding to the Pulse shooting. Police are humans. They can make mistakes too and certainly did here. 

 

[Max Power]

Those cops are #######

Not sure how that's an argument for defunding the police. If anything I'd say the opposite. Increase the budget so that they don't hire a bunch of ####### and make the salary commensurate with the risks they take with their lives everyday. Increase the budget to get them better equipment and training so they don't act like ####### ####### like this police department acted.

This exact police force just held active shooter training 2 months prior to the event. They were trained, they failed to perform.

 

[BeTheMatch]

IIRC, police also had a similar delay when responding to the Pulse shooting. Police are humans. They can make mistakes too and certainly did here. 

This is hardly a "mistake." To minimize this in that way is repugnant. And I don't understand why anyone would ever even try to defend this.

 

[[icon]]

That is how it’s done. Let this guy train the new cops they hire.

Properly trained gunfighters will straight #### UP your average spree shooter 95 times out of 100.

The training these guys undergo is insane. They know the angles, the know the tactics, they train to shoot under/around/through cover. They have put in the range time in so this is all instinct. When adrenaline is dumping it's HARD to shoot well. These guys are machines. To use a cliche: Once that dude arrived on scene Ramos was basically already dead, he just didn't know it yet. 

Do we have enough of those guys to protect all schools? Nope.  But with funding we could certainly train enough B team guys that will stop a spree shooter 80 or 90 times out of 100. 

 

[dkp993]

Unfortunately these incompetent cops will become the story and not the fact that a mentally ill 18-year-old kid was able to buy these weapons and thousands of rounds easier than he could obtain a drivers license.  

 

[timschochet]

The one thing I’ve always admired about police and firemen/women is their willingness to run towards the danger, while the rest of us run away from it. I’ve always wondered if I would have the personal courage to do what they do. I’ve never been in such a situation so I don’t know. I’m pretty much a coward though. 
 

I’m infuriated about this situation,  but I’m not ready to label these guys cowards yet. It’s possible that they misread the situation and just screwed up. I’m hoping that’s the case. I’ve never encountered a police officer or fireman who was a coward. 

 

[[icon]]

Unfortunately these incompetent cops will become the story and not the fact that a mentally ill 18-year-old kid was able to buy these weapons and thousands of rounds easier than he could obtain a drivers license.  

He purchased thousands of rounds of ammo? 

 

[dkp993]

I’ve never encountered a police officer or fireman who was a coward. 

The problem is is that it’s easy to be brave until the moment comes when you must be.  In this moment they showed their colors.  As did the guy who went in and ended it. 

 

[dkp993]

He purchased thousands of rounds of ammo? 

The press conference today said there were over 60 30 round magazines recovered on-site.  

 

[Amused to Death]

Properly trained gunfighters will straight #### UP your average spree shooter 95 times out of 100.

The training these guys undergo is insane. They know the angles, the know the tactics, they train to shoot under/around/through cover. They have put in the range time in so this is all instinct. When adrenaline is dumping it's HARD to shoot well. These guys are machines. To use a cliche: Once that dude arrived on scene Ramos was basically already dead, he just didn't know it yet. 

Do we have enough of those guys to protect all schools? Nope.  But with funding we could certainly train enough B team guys that will stop a spree shooter 80 or 90 times out of 100. 

The bolded is why is absurd to think the best way to combat the problem is give teachers guns.

 

[timschochet]

The problem is is that it’s easy to be brave until the moment comes when you must be.  In this moment they showed their colors.   As did the guy who went in and ended it. 

Again we don’t know this. They might have misread the situation and screwed up. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. 

 

[timschochet]

The press conference today said there were over 60 30 round magazines recovered on-site.  

JFC

 

[[icon]]

The bolded is why is absurd to think the best way to combat the problem is give teachers guns.

As the author of the post.. and someone who's done a bit of training: 

Nobody is saying arming all teachers is the best plan. At least tehy shouldn't be. 

However in Texas I'd wager 5-10% of the teachers are avid shooters.  Take volunteers... put them through training... set rules in place (their own pistol, keep discreet/low profile, carry concealed into the school then secured in hidden safe while students are in the classroom). 

That would work... not only as a deterrent (these shooters generally do a bit of recon and understand their targets), but also as a x-factor. A second line of defense, so to speak, if a shooter gets past the armed on-campus security. 

 

[[icon]]

The press conference today said there were over 60 30 round magazines recovered on-site.  

Guessing a lot of those were from BORTAC as well. 

I personally own ~70 mags. Keep them broken out by ammo type, caliber, etc.  Plus about half are unopened as backups/replacements (purchased in bulk). 

Anyone who shoots regularly has quite a few magazines. Range time is for training/shooting... loading mags is done before the session. 

 

[dkp993]

Guessing a lot of those were from BORTAC as well. 

I personally own ~70 mags. Keep them broken out by ammo type, caliber, etc.  Plus about half are unopened as backups/replacements (purchased in bulk). 

Anyone who shoots regularly has quite a few magazines. Range time is for training/shooting... loading mags is done before the session. 

I’m 99% sure that when he was talking about it it was in the context of the shooters weapons. In the press conference breakdown they were pretty clear about delineating the difference between the rounds and who’s were who’s. 
 

You or someone like you owning 70 magazines was not the point of my original post. I’m not making a judgment on that. I’m commenting on the ease with which a clearly disturbed 18-year-old could’ve obtained such weaponry. That should be our primary concern for the long term health of our country not just the bungled response of the LEO’s. 

 

[[icon]]

I’m 99% sure that when he was talking about it it was in the context of the shooters weapons. In the press conference breakdown they were pretty clear about delineating the difference between the rounds and who’s were who’s. 
 

You or someone like you owning 70 magazines was not the point of my original post. I’m not making a judgment on that. I’m commenting on the ease with which a clearly disturbed 18-year-old could’ve obtained such weaponry. That should be our primary concern for the long term health of our country not just the bungled response of the LEO. 

Understood and I agree  

A troubled kid in a small town suddenly buying multiple weapons and a ####load of peripheral stuff should receive a side-eye and a call to his parents or a local sheriff at the very least. 

 

[Desert_Power]

This is hardly a "mistake." To minimize this in that way is repugnant. And I don't understand why anyone would ever even try to defend this.

I’m not minimizing or defending anything. Just saying that it seems fairly obvious they made a mistake in assessing the situation. I don’t think an alternative explanation is really realistic. They certainly weren’t meaning to have more kids die. 
 

I do think we should have empathy and understanding for the officers in that situation  

 

[fred_1_15301]

I’m not minimizing or defending anything. Just saying that it seems fairly obvious they made a mistake in assessing the situation. I don’t think an alternative explanation is really realistic. They certainly weren’t meaning to have more kids die. 
 

I do think we should have empathy and understanding for the officers in that situation  

It’s a tough situation for sure.  If the timing from the more recent posts is correct, there were quite a few officers in the school while the shooting was going on.  I think they had to know exactly what was going on.  For some reason,  all of them chose not to go in.

 

[Fantasy_Freak]

One things I'd like to add, up the post there was a reference where a certain lead sheriff or police captain was being interviewed and he DID state that officer did go in to the school and get THEIR kids out of the school safely.  I don't know if that was addressed in the press conference today.  So is there a possibility that they were there for that amount of advanced time but were busy getting their own kids out, that I'm not sure.

 

[dkp993]

It’s a tough situation for sure.  If the timing from the more recent posts is correct, there were quite a few officers in the school while the shooting was going on.  I think they had to know exactly what was going on.  For some reason,  all of them chose not to go in.

They admitted wrongdoing in the press conference today regarding this. The tactical commander at the time made the decision not to. They said looking back on it it was the wrong decision. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Those cops are #######

Not sure how that's an argument for defunding the police. If anything I'd say the opposite. Increase the budget so that they don't hire a bunch of ####### and make the salary commensurate with the risks they take with their lives everyday. Increase the budget to get them better equipment and training so they don't act like ####### ####### like this police department acted.

How about we take the money that they're obviously wasting on military gear and overstaffing and divert it to other community efforts that get to the sources of our many problems?  Send child and family services agencies to investigate non-violent domestic issues, disappearances, etc. Give traffic enforcement to civil servants at state and local departments of transportation. Use what's left over for big salary increases for the guys and gals that will actually do the job well.

Other than the big salary increases for the "good" cops (which I also totally support), those are basically the ideas behind the defunding the police movement.  There are obviously more and less radical factions, but it's not nearly as outrageous as people seem to believe.

 

[fred_1_15301]

They admitted wrongdoing in the press conference today regarding this. The tactical commander at the time made the decision not to. They said looking back on it it was the wrong decision. 

I missed the interview.  Did he give a reason why?  According to the timing, the officers could hear the shooting going on so it would have been an active shooting situation.

 

[dkp993]

I missed the interview.  Did he give a reason why?  According to the timing, the officers could hear the shooting going on so it would have been an active shooting situation.

The tactical command decided it was no longer an active shooter situation and had changed to a barricaded assailant situation. This despite the fact that 911 calls were still coming in from children who were getting shot in the room at that time.  

 

[Desert_Power]

It’s a tough situation for sure.  If the timing from the more recent posts is correct, there were quite a few officers in the school while the shooting was going on.  I think they had to know exactly what was going on.  For some reason,  all of them chose not to go in.

It's truly awful. Hard to imagine what procedure or command situation could lead someone to not do the human thing and rush in. Inexcusable that they would either a) have the 911 dispatcher and not go in or b) not have the details from 911 calls in the class room contemporaneously.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Understood and I agree  

A troubled kid in a small town suddenly buying multiple weapons and a ####load of peripheral stuff should receive a side-eye and a call to his parents or a local sheriff at the very least. 

Definitely. And, as seems to be typical now with these events, there's mounting evidence that this kid had a disturbing online footprint. We need to get better at this.

 

[Caveman33]

It's truly awful. Hard to imagine what procedure or command situation could lead someone to not do the human thing and rush in. Inexcusable that they would either a) have the 911 dispatcher and not go in or b) not have the details from 911 calls in the class room contemporaneously.

Rushing into danger isn't necessarily a human instinct.  Lots of people are cowards.  They freeze up or cry even when faced with danger.  Also, this particular police response should not be that surprising as the issue came up in court after the school shooting in Florida a few years ago.

https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out.

 

[PhillipPhoto]

That's not what it means, rocket scientist.

The intelligence insults just allowed here huh?   
 

Ok then, I could eat alphabet soup and crap out a better response than you did.  

 

[massraider]

The intelligence insults just allowed here huh?    

Just learning how it is around here, as someone who just found us on January 7, and definitely not someone who has ever posted here before. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Been reading a bit more of the timeline and info about the day.   I will still stand by my opinion that in general we are overestimating the local police's training and that local police "signed up for this" (I think these are extreme events that aren't in the calculation for most local cops).  

That said, I was wrong yesterday.    I thought it was a situation where it was a few officers involved and a couple were already injured.   I didn't know that there were so many standing around and for how long, and that they probably knew there were kids still alive in the room.   All around ####ed up that, what 19? officers couldn't put together something.   Just nuts.