Ted Ginn Jr. traded to SF (1 Viewer)

[kface]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

And let's say they don't make the deal and use the same draft pick on a return specialist. What would you say the odds are of them landing an average return specialist? One that averages 5 yards more than the average guy?

It's not 5 yards more per kick return; I mean per game. Ginn's career average is right in line with the NFL average for kick returners.There are 10 players in the NFL with 100 kick returns over the last three seasons. Ginn is LAST among them in kick return average: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/THxKB

I think he's fine as a 5th round pick, but I don't think he's any great shakes.

Why does everyone ingnore this post! he's not a great kick returner.

 

[morris4903]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

And let's say they don't make the deal and use the same draft pick on a return specialist. What would you say the odds are of them landing an average return specialist? One that averages 5 yards more than the average guy?

It's not 5 yards more per kick return; I mean per game. Ginn's career average is right in line with the NFL average for kick returners.There are 10 players in the NFL with 100 kick returns over the last three seasons. Ginn is LAST among them in kick return average: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/THxKB

I think he's fine as a 5th round pick, but I don't think he's any great shakes.

Why does everyone ingnore this post! he's not a great kick returner.

Its not so much kick returning SF needs, even though Ginn will help in that category, but punt returning. SF was last in average last year at 4.4 yds per return and had the most fumbles. It got even worse when they got rid of Rossum, and the average after he left was 3.5 yds per return. They lost Nate Clements for the season because they were using him on punt returns. If Ginn can produce like he did in 2007 when he was the full time punt returner, than a 5th rounder will be more than worth it even if he never sets foot on the field as a receiver, because SF directly lost a couple of games because of horrible punt returning last year.

 

[Tau837]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

 

[David Dodds]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

So for you guys that don't think he holds any value as a returner, you contend SF shouldn't have given a 5th rounder for him?I contend someone as fast as Ginn should be a better returner than he is. He also can play a Devery Henderson role for most teams because of his speed. He was never worth the #9 overall pick. That was obvious to all of us that were at Radio City Music Hall listening to the frenzy of laughter after Miami selected him. But we are now talking about a very low risk 5th round pick to get a guy we all know is extremely fast. It might not work out, but isn't this exactly the kind of chances the good teams try? I don't fault Miami for moving him for something here. But I also think he is worth a 5th rounder because of his speed.

 

[vandyt]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

So for you guys that don't think he holds any value as a returner, you contend SF shouldn't have given a 5th rounder for him?I contend someone as fast as Ginn should be a better returner than he is. He also can play a Devery Henderson role for most teams because of his speed. He was never worth the #9 overall pick. That was obvious to all of us that were at Radio City Music Hall listening to the frenzy of laughter after Miami selected him. But we are now talking about a very low risk 5th round pick to get a guy we all know is extremely fast. It might not work out, but isn't this exactly the kind of chances the good teams try? I don't fault Miami for moving him for something here. But I also think he is worth a 5th rounder because of his speed.

When do you see John Capel breaking back into the NFL?

 

[GoFishTN]

As a Miami fan

He and his whole family for any type of pick is a good deal. As a WR4 or WR5 and a returner he is fine but the pick we spent on him irked the fan base for too long.

This was the problem with Dolphin fans. They were so upset they didn't get "Randy Moss" with their pick, yet if he were a 4th round pick they would have said he has potential. Again the only reason Ginn had all this venom at him is because people expected 1st round production. If he were a 4th round pick people would see some potential and improvement. Even in a bad year he dominated the hated Jets and was the only receiver in the league to burn Revis deep all year! He also took 2 to the house...again in a bad year.Bad value trade for Miami IMO.

What else would be expected from a first round pick?

 

[chinawildman]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

And let's say they don't make the deal and use the same draft pick on a return specialist. What would you say the odds are of them landing an average return specialist? One that averages 5 yards more than the average guy?

It's not 5 yards more per kick return; I mean per game. Ginn's career average is right in line with the NFL average for kick returners.There are 10 players in the NFL with 100 kick returns over the last three seasons. Ginn is LAST among them in kick return average: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/THxKB

I think he's fine as a 5th round pick, but I don't think he's any great shakes.

Why does everyone ingnore this post! he's not a great kick returner.

Interesting. I went to the same site, and changed the requirements from 100 returns to 75 returns. Sure enough Ginn is still at the bottom when it comes to avg yds per return. However Devin Hester was one of the few that had an even lower average, and I doubt anyone considers him just an "average" kick returner. Bottom line is: Your prowess as a kickoff returner isn't really determined by how many yds you average. Rock Cartwright is middle of the pack, but I doubt he strikes fear in the hearts of special teams coaches.

 

[PCThorn]

Can anyone tell me the contract situation that the 49ers inherit? His base salary is quite low but Ginn signed a $20m contract of which $14m was guaranteed. Do the Dolphins eat this guaranteed money?

 

[chinawildman]

Can anyone tell me the contract situation that the 49ers inherit? His base salary is quite low but Ginn signed a $20m contract of which $14m was guaranteed. Do the Dolphins eat this guaranteed money?

2009: $677,9172010: $1,035,8332011: $1,393,7502012: $1,801,667 (Voidable Year)

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

When you think about value, I think s.f. Received the better end of the deal. Miami spends a first on him a few years ago and San Francisco picks him up for a fifth. It takes most wr's a few years to get used to the NFL anyway. He's not great but Come on, how do you argue that this is a bad move for the 49ers when their current kick and punt return game is poor.

It's a 5th, a 5th!

 

[Mikey16x]

I don't see a downside from the 49ers perspective. Great move. I agree, it's a 5th rounder!! Ginn isn't going to light the NFL on fire but he's absolutely no where near an "NFL Bust"... I mean he could fall into that category because the Dolphins overvalued him, but that's not his fault. Ginn could find a great niche in SF..

 

[PCThorn]

Thanks for the base salary info but does anyone know if the 49ers are eligible for any of that $14m guaranteed money?

 

[The Goat]

I'm shocked anyone was willing to trade anything of value for him.

You don't think good kick returners are worth anything?

Only the very top ones, like Cribbs or Sproles. I would think a team could find a fast guy that can't run a route or catch towards the end or after the draft.

You are underrating Ginn, and underrating returners.

Aside from one specific game, Ginn was not doing much special on kickoff returns. Davone Bess was already returning most punts.

 

[The Goat]

IMO, this was good for all parties.

Miami gets a fifth-round pick...and they weren't going to get a whole lot more for a guy who was among the leaders in dropped passes last year and lost his starting job for a spell.

SF gets a speedster who CAN catch on vertical routes (he's just awful at coming back to the ball, but he CAN catch on verticals), and can pull safeties off Crabtree.

Ginn gets a fresh start, and no longer has to deal with being miscast as a #1 receiver.

Good luck to him.

 

[thecatch]

Thanks for the base salary info but does anyone know if the 49ers are eligible for any of that $14m guaranteed money?

No, they are not.

 

[mcd]

Can anyone tell me the contract situation that the 49ers inherit? His base salary is quite low but Ginn signed a $20m contract of which $14m was guaranteed. Do the Dolphins eat this guaranteed money?

2009: $677,9172010: $1,035,8332011: $1,393,7502012: $1,801,667 (Voidable Year)

Just to put that in perspective, Sam Hurd just resigned with Dallas at $1.8 million.

 

[=Smackdown=]

Shock & Awe

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I think Ginn's value as a returner is being overstated here. He wasn't in the top 10 in KR average last season, and last season was by far the best season of his career as a return man. He had two KR TDs against the Jets that, like a lot of KR TDs, were at least partially due to bad play by the kickoff team. How many yards a game does Ginn the return man add over the average returner? 5? Over the 49ers not so great returners... 10?

And let's say they don't make the deal and use the same draft pick on a return specialist. What would you say the odds are of them landing an average return specialist? One that averages 5 yards more than the average guy?

It's not 5 yards more per kick return; I mean per game. Ginn's career average is right in line with the NFL average for kick returners.There are 10 players in the NFL with 100 kick returns over the last three seasons. Ginn is LAST among them in kick return average: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/THxKB

I think he's fine as a 5th round pick, but I don't think he's any great shakes.

Why does everyone ingnore this post! he's not a great kick returner.

Interesting. I went to the same site, and changed the requirements from 100 returns to 75 returns. Sure enough Ginn is still at the bottom when it comes to avg yds per return. However Devin Hester was one of the few that had an even lower average, and I doubt anyone considers him just an "average" kick returner. Bottom line is: Your prowess as a kickoff returner isn't really determined by how many yds you average. Rock Cartwright is middle of the pack, but I doubt he strikes fear in the hearts of special teams coaches.

Hey, football analysis is done with Excel and databases.

 

[Todem]

You wanna know why Ginn as fast as he is is not a good returner?

He hates contact. He rolls up into a ball as he is about to be tackled....or runs out of bounds. Plain and simple.

To be a Devin Hester or Cribbs type...you need to go full speed up the gut of the coverage....Ginn never...ever has done that.

He sucks...good riddence.

 

[Bri]

teams give up on WRs too quickly after proclaiming them projects that take a few years.

Ginn's a playmaker, Fins need more of those

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

You wanna know why Ginn as fast as he is is not a good returner?He hates contact. He rolls up into a ball as he is about to be tackled....or runs out of bounds. Plain and simple.To be a Devin Hester or Cribbs type...you need to go full speed up the gut of the coverage....Ginn never...ever has done that.He sucks...good riddence.

He doesn't need to be Hester or Cribbs to have value for the 49ers. They didn't spend the 9th overall pick on him. They spent a 5th rounder on a solid return guy that can play some WR. I can understand the frustration of Dolphins' fans for blowing an early pick on Ginn however pardon me if I don't listen to your opinion of him as a player.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

So for you guys that don't think he holds any value as a returner, you contend SF shouldn't have given a 5th rounder for him?

I contend someone as fast as Ginn should be a better returner than he is. He also can play a Devery Henderson role for most teams because of his speed. He was never worth the #9 overall pick. That was obvious to all of us that were at Radio City Music Hall listening to the frenzy of laughter after Miami selected him. But we are now talking about a very low risk 5th round pick to get a guy we all know is extremely fast. It might not work out, but isn't this exactly the kind of chances the good teams try? I don't fault Miami for moving him for something here. But I also think he is worth a 5th rounder because of his speed.

well, I'm not really disagreeing about the trade --- I don't have a strong opinion on it either way, but I think what good teams do is build through the draft, and for that reason value draft picks.all teams will have plenty of misses in any draft, but that's one reason extra picks can have such value.

the pats got their starting center in the 5th, qb in the 6th, edelman and tbc in the 7th.

colts got mathis in the 5th, june and bethea in the 6th.

chargers got michael turner in the 5th

philly got celek, gaither, and cole in the 5th

baltimore got adalius in the 6th

the pack got kampmann and kgb in the 5th

and these are just some higher profile guys --- I'm sure there are probably plenty of role players in the later rounds.

it might be that I don't value receivers enough, but I'm not really sure what kind of impact ginn will make on sf.

edit: haha....this just occurred to me, and I'm not taking a shot at you here, but you ask what good teams do and then follow that up by marveling at some guy's speed......what nfl owner does that last part most sound like?

 

[GoodellFTL]

Ted Ginn and Santonio Holmes got traded for the same price. Good stuff.

 

[CalBear]

Interesting. I went to the same site, and changed the requirements from 100 returns to 75 returns. Sure enough Ginn is still at the bottom when it comes to avg yds per return. However Devin Hester was one of the few that had an even lower average, and I doubt anyone considers him just an "average" kick returner. Bottom line is: Your prowess as a kickoff returner isn't really determined by how many yds you average. Rock Cartwright is middle of the pack, but I doubt he strikes fear in the hearts of special teams coaches.

Hester is wildly overrated as a returner. He hasn't scored a return TD since 2007 and ranks near the bottom of the league in both kick return and punt return averages since that time. I think Chicago came up with some innovative blocking schemes which sprung him for more returns early in his career until the league adjusted.That said, Ginn has not been a world-beater himself. He might be worth a fifth-rounder; I wouldn't expect much upside. So far he's averaged one return TD per year.

 

[chinawildman]

Interesting. I went to the same site, and changed the requirements from 100 returns to 75 returns. Sure enough Ginn is still at the bottom when it comes to avg yds per return. However Devin Hester was one of the few that had an even lower average, and I doubt anyone considers him just an "average" kick returner. Bottom line is: Your prowess as a kickoff returner isn't really determined by how many yds you average. Rock Cartwright is middle of the pack, but I doubt he strikes fear in the hearts of special teams coaches.

Hester is wildly overrated as a returner. He hasn't scored a return TD since 2007 and ranks near the bottom of the league in both kick return and punt return averages since that time. I think Chicago came up with some innovative blocking schemes which sprung him for more returns early in his career until the league adjusted.That said, Ginn has not been a world-beater himself. He might be worth a fifth-rounder; I wouldn't expect much upside. So far he's averaged one return TD per year.

Overrated or not, would you consider Hester below average as the stats indicate? That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[n20]

Interesting. I went to the same site, and changed the requirements from 100 returns to 75 returns. Sure enough Ginn is still at the bottom when it comes to avg yds per return. However Devin Hester was one of the few that had an even lower average, and I doubt anyone considers him just an "average" kick returner. Bottom line is: Your prowess as a kickoff returner isn't really determined by how many yds you average. Rock Cartwright is middle of the pack, but I doubt he strikes fear in the hearts of special teams coaches.

Hester is wildly overrated as a returner. He hasn't scored a return TD since 2007 and ranks near the bottom of the league in both kick return and punt return averages since that time. I think Chicago came up with some innovative blocking schemes which sprung him for more returns early in his career until the league adjusted.That said, Ginn has not been a world-beater himself. He might be worth a fifth-rounder; I wouldn't expect much upside. So far he's averaged one return TD per year.

Overrated or not, would you consider Hester below average as the stats indicate? That was the point I was trying to make.

I haven't gone back and looked but it certainly feels like Hester's return numbers suffered as soon as he started focusing on playing WR full time. Doesn't it seem like that was also true for Dante Hall?

 

[CalBear]

I haven't gone back and looked but it certainly feels like Hester's return numbers suffered as soon as he started focusing on playing WR full time. Doesn't it seem like that was also true for Dante Hall?

I think what is more likely is that both Hester and Hall lucked into a series of return TDs which inflated people's opinions of their return skills. In Hall's best return season (2003), he also had his highest number of career receptions (40), so it's not like playing WR took away from his return skills. The thing that separates both Hall and Hester from the guys at the top of the return average lists is that the guys at the top make positive yardage on most returns, with the occasional home run, while Hall and Hester don't do much on most returns.

 

[chook]

Great deal by the Niners IMHO, adding yet another required piece to that ever-improving roster.

Kickass D, likely explosive offense and an upgrade on ST (potentially significant - I tend to agree with the above comparison to Vernon Davis).

Playoffs here we come!

 

[Todem]

You wanna know why Ginn as fast as he is is not a good returner?He hates contact. He rolls up into a ball as he is about to be tackled....or runs out of bounds. Plain and simple.To be a Devin Hester or Cribbs type...you need to go full speed up the gut of the coverage....Ginn never...ever has done that.He sucks...good riddence.

He doesn't need to be Hester or Cribbs to have value for the 49ers. They didn't spend the 9th overall pick on him. They spent a 5th rounder on a solid return guy that can play some WR. I can understand the frustration of Dolphins' fans for blowing an early pick on Ginn however pardon me if I don't listen to your opinion of him as a player.

Not bitter...I really pulled for him...and believed he could make it.....but that is a fact that all you niner fans will find out very quickly. He has below average hands. Runs below average routes. His value as a 3rd WR will be limited. Now granted along side a Crabtree and Morgan he can get some great 1 on 1 matchups and get some easy scores. But......He does not like contact....will run out any chance he gets. Drops key passes in key situations.....and as a return guy is average. And that is what the Niners hope he is, a very good impact return guy. And he for the most part other than one game against the Jets he failed at that too.Thanks for the 5th rounder. And good luck with Teddy.

 

[Todem]

Interesting. I went to the same site, and changed the requirements from 100 returns to 75 returns. Sure enough Ginn is still at the bottom when it comes to avg yds per return. However Devin Hester was one of the few that had an even lower average, and I doubt anyone considers him just an "average" kick returner. Bottom line is: Your prowess as a kickoff returner isn't really determined by how many yds you average. Rock Cartwright is middle of the pack, but I doubt he strikes fear in the hearts of special teams coaches.

Hester is wildly overrated as a returner. He hasn't scored a return TD since 2007 and ranks near the bottom of the league in both kick return and punt return averages since that time. I think Chicago came up with some innovative blocking schemes which sprung him for more returns early in his career until the league adjusted.That said, Ginn has not been a world-beater himself. He might be worth a fifth-rounder; I wouldn't expect much upside. So far he's averaged one return TD per year.

Overrated or not, would you consider Hester below average as the stats indicate? That was the point I was trying to make.

I haven't gone back and looked but it certainly feels like Hester's return numbers suffered as soon as he started focusing on playing WR full time. Doesn't it seem like that was also true for Dante Hall?

Before Hester focused on being a WR....he was an elite premier kick and punt returner...how can anyone knock this guy after what he did in 2007? Mindboggling. And BTW at the "U" he was a sick return guy for us as well.

 

[Todem]

teams give up on WRs too quickly after proclaiming them projects that take a few years.

Ginn's a playmaker, Fins need more of those

LOL. Trading 2 second rounders and Ginn for a Brandon Marshall and a 5th.....all day man. We got a proven STUD playmaker.

Not a track star trying to pose as an NFL WR. The guy failed. And will continue to fail in the NFL. Low risk trade for the Niners so I don't blame them for giving it a shot.....but any Niner fan should keep their expectations to a very low minimum. The guy so far has been a bust as a big time playmaker. He actually regressed badly last season as a WR. And as a return guy....he won only one game for us in 3 years......one.

 

[=Smackdown=]

teams give up on WRs too quickly after proclaiming them projects that take a few years.

Ginn's a playmaker, Fins need more of those

LOL. Trading 2 second rounders and Ginn for a Brandon Marshall and a 5th.....all day man. We got a proven STUD playmaker.

Not a track star trying to pose as an NFL WR. The guy failed. And will continue to fail in the NFL. Low risk trade for the Niners so I don't blame them for giving it a shot.....but any Niner fan should keep their expectations to a very low minimum. The guy so far has been a bust as a big time playmaker. He actually regressed badly last season as a WR. And as a return guy....he won only one game for us in 3 years......one.

Ginn actually lost his job as a punt returner last year because of bad hands/running out of bounds/tackled with no contact.

He would have been cut if it weren't for the trade.