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The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

I also want to point out that there is a big distinction between a more "pure" form of political conservative and a populist conservative, as represented by the Tea Party. The two classic examples would be William F Buckley as the pure conservative and Joe McCarthy as the populist conservative. Pittstownkiller is trying to equate the two.

In the GOP there has always been a struggle between the moderate "Rockefeller" wing and the conservative "Buckley" wing, and this has generally been healthy. But every once in a while there has been an invasion from the populists, be they Know Nothing's, or Joe McCarthy supporters, or John Birchers, or Tea Partiers. This is not healthy and it represents IMO a poison to the political process.

 
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Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
I believe Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. Which of course would cause a lot of people to explain the boom in deficit spending under his administration.

First, if you ignore the deficit spending that occured under (bear with me... I know you just can't ignore stuff like that in the tea party's mind, but again bear with me for a moment), pretty much everything else he stood for falls in line with the tea party. Then, when you look at the deficit spending you have to see that 1) he was fighting another world power in USSR, and the best way to beat them without violence was to outspend them defensively; 2) having won the Republican nomination, the party still has a lot of power to surround him with "Rockefeller Republicans" in his administration, which they did (Bush as VP being the primary example); and 3) congress was democratically controlled.

So despite the massive deficit spending, I'm pretty convinced Reagan would probably be a tea partier today.

I also believe JFK may have fell into the same mold, but that would be a lot harder to show, despite how much I believe he would. But that has nothing to do with the GOP. It's just an example of why I believe the tea party movement isn't a GOP movement. It began as a protest movement. Not an activist movement. I find it sad that money has now made it into an activist movement.

 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
I believe Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. Which of course would cause a lot of people to explain the boom in deficit spending under his administration. First, if you ignore the deficit spending that occured under (bear with me... I know you just can't ignore stuff like that in the tea party's mind, but again bear with me for a moment), pretty much everything else he stood for falls in line with the tea party. Then, when you look at the deficit spending you have to see that 1) he was fighting another world power in USSR, and the best way to beat them without violence was to outspend them defensively; 2) having won the Republican nomination, the party still has a lot of power to surround him with "Rockefeller Republicans" in his administration, which they did (Bush as VP being the primary example); and 3) congress was democratically controlled. So despite the massive deficit spending, I'm pretty convinced Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. I also believe JFK may have fell into the same mold, but that would be a lot harder to show, despite how much I believe he would. But that has nothing to do with the GOP. It's just an example of why I believe the tea party movement isn't a GOP movement. It began as a protest movement. Not an activist movement. I find it sad that money has now made it into an activist movement.
I see where you're going, but it wasn't my question. I'm asking about the GOP as a whole, not the traits of specific individuals. I will say though, that while you are asking me to "ignore" the spending....that's a hard line the Tea Party will not do, so it's really not the same.
 
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Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
I believe Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. Which of course would cause a lot of people to explain the boom in deficit spending under his administration.

First, if you ignore the deficit spending that occured under (bear with me... I know you just can't ignore stuff like that in the tea party's mind, but again bear with me for a moment), pretty much everything else he stood for falls in line with the tea party. Then, when you look at the deficit spending you have to see that 1) he was fighting another world power in USSR, and the best way to beat them without violence was to outspend them defensively; 2) having won the Republican nomination, the party still has a lot of power to surround him with "Rockefeller Republicans" in his administration, which they did (Bush as VP being the primary example); and 3) congress was democratically controlled.

So despite the massive deficit spending, I'm pretty convinced Reagan would probably be a tea partier today.

I also believe JFK may have fell into the same mold, but that would be a lot harder to show, despite how much I believe he would. But that has nothing to do with the GOP. It's just an example of why I believe the tea party movement isn't a GOP movement. It began as a protest movement. Not an activist movement. I find it sad that money has now made it into an activist movement.
Reagan was a masterful politician. He would of course give the Tea Party the same "lip service" support that he gave the budding Christian Coalition. The same lip service he gave to the "true believers" in the Reagan Revolution.

 
Ronald Reagan rejected across the board spending cuts. He was willing time after time to work with a Democratic congress. He signed a law giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. Though a wonderful public speaker, he rejected populist solutions to policy issues.

In what way does Reagan resemble the Tea Party? I don't see it.

 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
Extreme is rather funny word to use; to me they espouse the basis of the Conservative Party's platform.
Use whatever word you want What I see in the Tea Party today, I don't remember ever seeing in the GOP back to the days of Reagan. I'm asking when the GOP was ever like the current Tea Party. Are we talking about the 50s or 60s?? 70s? When?
When was the GOP ever like it is today with its candidate openly pro-choice, championing social welfare programs, illegal immigration, and deficit spending; William Buckley is rolling in his grave.
 
Ronald Reagan rejected across the board spending cuts. He was willing time after time to work with a Democratic congress. He signed a law giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. Though a wonderful public speaker, he rejected populist solutions to policy issues. In what way does Reagan resemble the Tea Party? I don't see it.
His amnesty was a 1 time only deal to create a starting point to deport "illegals"; of course that has been distorted and the issue was never dealt with.
 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
I believe Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. Which of course would cause a lot of people to explain the boom in deficit spending under his administration. First, if you ignore the deficit spending that occured under (bear with me... I know you just can't ignore stuff like that in the tea party's mind, but again bear with me for a moment), pretty much everything else he stood for falls in line with the tea party. Then, when you look at the deficit spending you have to see that 1) he was fighting another world power in USSR, and the best way to beat them without violence was to outspend them defensively; 2) having won the Republican nomination, the party still has a lot of power to surround him with "Rockefeller Republicans" in his administration, which they did (Bush as VP being the primary example); and 3) congress was democratically controlled. So despite the massive deficit spending, I'm pretty convinced Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. I also believe JFK may have fell into the same mold, but that would be a lot harder to show, despite how much I believe he would. But that has nothing to do with the GOP. It's just an example of why I believe the tea party movement isn't a GOP movement. It began as a protest movement. Not an activist movement. I find it sad that money has now made it into an activist movement.
Interesting post Spock, I do agree that the Tea-Party was a protest movement - in response to the GOP as much as to the Democrats. Tim is correct that the Tea-Party is a threat to the GOP, they want to be, and they will continue to not vote for their candidates that they feel do not live up to their ideals.
 
"closed-minded" "racist" "rigid" "old-fashioned" ...

Young Republicans reveal the findings of their research into why the party is so unpopular with younger moderates.

 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
Extreme is rather funny word to use; to me they espouse the basis of the Conservative Party's platform.
Use whatever word you want What I see in the Tea Party today, I don't remember ever seeing in the GOP back to the days of Reagan. I'm asking when the GOP was ever like the current Tea Party. Are we talking about the 50s or 60s?? 70s? When?
When was the GOP ever like it is today with its candidate openly pro-choice, championing social welfare programs, illegal immigration, and deficit spending; William Buckley is rolling in his grave.
So you aren't going to answer my question I take it? There's no question that the GOP is a shell of what it once was, but it certainly wasn't what the Tea Party is today.
 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
Extreme is rather funny word to use; to me they espouse the basis of the Conservative Party's platform.
Use whatever word you want What I see in the Tea Party today, I don't remember ever seeing in the GOP back to the days of Reagan. I'm asking when the GOP was ever like the current Tea Party. Are we talking about the 50s or 60s?? 70s? When?
When was the GOP ever like it is today with its candidate openly pro-choice, championing social welfare programs, illegal immigration, and deficit spending; William Buckley is rolling in his grave.
Like I said "lip service"

 
My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.

 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
I believe Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. Which of course would cause a lot of people to explain the boom in deficit spending under his administration. First, if you ignore the deficit spending that occured under (bear with me... I know you just can't ignore stuff like that in the tea party's mind, but again bear with me for a moment), pretty much everything else he stood for falls in line with the tea party. Then, when you look at the deficit spending you have to see that 1) he was fighting another world power in USSR, and the best way to beat them without violence was to outspend them defensively; 2) having won the Republican nomination, the party still has a lot of power to surround him with "Rockefeller Republicans" in his administration, which they did (Bush as VP being the primary example); and 3) congress was democratically controlled. So despite the massive deficit spending, I'm pretty convinced Reagan would probably be a tea partier today. I also believe JFK may have fell into the same mold, but that would be a lot harder to show, despite how much I believe he would. But that has nothing to do with the GOP. It's just an example of why I believe the tea party movement isn't a GOP movement. It began as a protest movement. Not an activist movement. I find it sad that money has now made it into an activist movement.
I see where you're going, but it wasn't my question. I'm asking about the GOP as a whole, not the traits of specific individuals. I will say though, that while you are asking me to "ignore" the spending....that's a hard line the Tea Party will not do, so it's really not the same.
The GOP as a whole has for well over a century now been owned by the banking/oil/media industries. It has been dominated by "Rockefeller" republicans because of the source of their funding. The banks and oil industries need to keep the debt based (fractional reserve) monetary system in place, which was established in 1863/64 with the banking acts, as well as keep the base money system in private hands, which was established in 1913. Thus the banks insure the party is full of politicians who would not only never challenge the monetary system (which was challenged constantly in the first 125 to150 years of our country), but also support the government debt growth policy that fuels the debt based/private system in place.

So yes, I agree with you, the GOP for well over the last centry has never been Tea Party focused. However, the original birth of the GOP was Tea Party focused. Lincoln HATED the banks, and he HATED the idea of debt based money, and had the issue of a central bank existed at the time, he would have opposed it as well. Lincoln, the first republican president, had the US Treasury spend non-debt backed, government issued currency. He issued $450 million of it. Because of this the banking (and growing oil industry) HAD to do something to take control of this new Republican party that threatened them so much. They succeeded, and it has been banked owned and run ever since. As such, Tea Party ideals are opposite of what the GOP is today, but very similar to what it was when the party was birthed.

On the flip side, the Democratic Party is bank owned and run just as much as the Republican Party is. The banking and oil industry keep the two parties battling from opposite side of many issues to keep the people from ever challenging the national monetary system. Challening the monetary system was a back and forth battle from the day this country was birthed until people stopped challenging it in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Since then it's a minor issue, and those that focus on it are labled "conspiracy theorists" or "Ron Paul extremists"... or as of late "Tea Partiers". But the issue was high on the list of average American's policical issues when they didn't have two parties filling their heads with so many other issues to ##### about.

So while I agree with you about the GOP for the last century, I see "get back to" meaning getting back to the pre-bank run two party system we have today.

 
Ronald Reagan rejected across the board spending cuts. He was willing time after time to work with a Democratic congress. He signed a law giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. Though a wonderful public speaker, he rejected populist solutions to policy issues.In what way does Reagan resemble the Tea Party? I don't see it.
Reagan was not a Rockefeller republican in any sense of the term. He only comes close in that he spent a lot... but had to in order to win the war against USSR by outspending them.

 
My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.
You're not generalizing. What you're describing is the inevitable result of a populist movement.

That's why when people like Pittstownkiller try to equate this to a "pure conservative" movement, it's such a false and absurd comparison. There is no connection between the way the Tea Party operates, and the way classic conservatives like Buckley or Reagan approached things.

 
Ronald Reagan rejected across the board spending cuts. He was willing time after time to work with a Democratic congress. He signed a law giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. Though a wonderful public speaker, he rejected populist solutions to policy issues.In what way does Reagan resemble the Tea Party? I don't see it.
Reagan was not a Rockefeller republican in any sense of the term. He only comes close in that he spent a lot... but had to in order to win the war against USSR by outspending them.
Of course he wasn't a Rockefeller republican. What does that have to do with my post?

Like Pittstown, you're equating conservative Republicans with populist Republicans- they're not close to the same animal.

 
Ronald Reagan rejected across the board spending cuts. He was willing time after time to work with a Democratic congress. He signed a law giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. Though a wonderful public speaker, he rejected populist solutions to policy issues.In what way does Reagan resemble the Tea Party? I don't see it.
Reagan was not a Rockefeller republican in any sense of the term. He only comes close in that he spent a lot... but had to in order to win the war against USSR by outspending them.
Of course he wasn't a Rockefeller republican. What does that have to do with my post?

Like Pittstown, you're equating conservative Republicans with populist Republicans- they're not close to the same animal.
No I am not. I am equating the GOP as it exists today to Rockefeller Republcians.

Whether Reagan is a populist or not doesn't matter.

 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
Extreme is rather funny word to use; to me they espouse the basis of the Conservative Party's platform.
Use whatever word you want What I see in the Tea Party today, I don't remember ever seeing in the GOP back to the days of Reagan. I'm asking when the GOP was ever like the current Tea Party. Are we talking about the 50s or 60s?? 70s? When?
When was the GOP ever like it is today with its candidate openly pro-choice, championing social welfare programs, illegal immigration, and deficit spending; William Buckley is rolling in his grave.
So you aren't going to answer my question I take it? There's no question that the GOP is a shell of what it once was, but it certainly wasn't what the Tea Party is today.
I thought I did answer your question; maybe you need to define what your view of the Tea-Party's view are. I guess I would have to go back to mid-70's to mid-80's as an example of the last good run.
 
Epic fail on this one Tim. Why don't you just admit that the Tea-Party, is really no different from any other party; you just don't care for their message of smaller government.
Are you of the opinion that the Tea Party isn't really having an effect on the GOP and that the way things are going for the GOP are the way they want them to go?
I am under the opinion the the Tea-Party is closer to what the GOP needs to get back to, rather than being a watered down version of the Democrat's candidate.
Get back to?? When was the GOP ever as extreme as the Tea Party is now? Keep in mind....I started voting just 20 years ago and had zero interest in politics as a kid.
Extreme is rather funny word to use; to me they espouse the basis of the Conservative Party's platform.
Use whatever word you want What I see in the Tea Party today, I don't remember ever seeing in the GOP back to the days of Reagan. I'm asking when the GOP was ever like the current Tea Party. Are we talking about the 50s or 60s?? 70s? When?
When was the GOP ever like it is today with its candidate openly pro-choice, championing social welfare programs, illegal immigration, and deficit spending; William Buckley is rolling in his grave.
So you aren't going to answer my question I take it? There's no question that the GOP is a shell of what it once was, but it certainly wasn't what the Tea Party is today.
I thought I did answer your question; maybe you need to define what your view of the Tea-Party's view are. I guess I would have to go back to mid-70's to mid-80's as an example of the last good run.
My view of the Tea Party is irrelevent here. It's pretty simple to see what they are doing. Their actions are loud and clear. Problem is, if you go looking for what they are "about" you'll find they aren't even practicing what they are preaching when it comes to things like:1. Protectoin of free markets2. Adhereing to the Constitution3. Avoiding Politics4. Taxesright down the list. They don't abide by their own tenents, and judging by the actions of the GOP the last 20 years, neither do they. That's why I asked the question....how far back do we have to go to see the "real" GOP? Some here have suggested back to the time of Lincoln. I don't know.
 
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My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.
You're not generalizing. What you're describing is the inevitable result of a populist movement.

That's why when people like Pittstownkiller try to equate this to a "pure conservative" movement, it's such a false and absurd comparison. There is no connection between the way the Tea Party operates, and the way classic conservatives like Buckley or Reagan approached things.
The Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Act under Reagan was the precursor to the sequestration we have today. It put some teeth to forcing some cuts in domestic spending. Today's plan includes defense spending, which is the biggest difference. But both were very similar in looking at across the board cuts and trying to reign in the growth. You may think it is simplistic, but it is the only way to get results with a Democratically-controlled Congress. Republicans were successful under Clinton at getting across the board growth under control with cuts to the baseline growth rates. Other than that, both parties suck at doing anything about spending growth. Your hatred of across the board spending targets is unfounded. It may be simplistic, but it accomplishes an important mission, in making Congress get serious about controlling spending. The tea party is a lot more anti-immigrant than Reagan was, but fundamental philosophy on spending is not all that different. Also, Reagan was much more agreeable in his tax-reform at considering things that would be considered tax-increases. Today's GOP (not just the Tea Party) has some unrealistic notion against any type of raising taxes.

 
My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.
You're not generalizing. What you're describing is the inevitable result of a populist movement.

That's why when people like Pittstownkiller try to equate this to a "pure conservative" movement, it's such a false and absurd comparison. There is no connection between the way the Tea Party operates, and the way classic conservatives like Buckley or Reagan approached things.
The Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Act under Reagan was the precursor to the sequestration we have today. It put some teeth to forcing some cuts in domestic spending. Today's plan includes defense spending, which is the biggest difference. But both were very similar in looking at across the board cuts and trying to reign in the growth. You may think it is simplistic, but it is the only way to get results with a Democratically-controlled Congress. Republicans were successful under Clinton at getting across the board growth under control with cuts to the baseline growth rates. Other than that, both parties suck at doing anything about spending growth. Your hatred of across the board spending targets is unfounded. It may be simplistic, but it accomplishes an important mission, in making Congress get serious about controlling spending. The tea party is a lot more anti-immigrant than Reagan was, but fundamental philosophy on spending is not all that different. Also, Reagan was much more agreeable in his tax-reform at considering things that would be considered tax-increases. Today's GOP (not just the Tea Party) has some unrealistic notion against any type of raising taxes.
An unconstitutional failure is the blue print for reigning in the budget?

 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/06/13/the-morning-plum-house-gop-stomps-all-over-republican-rebranding/

Consider what the House GOP is up to right now. House Republicans recently passed an immigration amendment, pushed by anti-reform diehard Steve King, that would effectively mandate the deportation of the “DREAMers” who were taken to the U.S. as children. House Republicans are planning a vote next week on a measure that would ban abortions after 20 weeks, after defeating amendments that would exempt cases of rape or incest. And yesterday, House Republicans approved a version of the 2012 National Defense Reauthorization Act that contains what The Advocate calls “three controversial, antigay amendments, one of which is aimed at delaying repeal implementation of don’t ask, don’t tell.”

What do these three things have in common? They would seem to run directly counter to the belief among some Republican strategists that the party needs to move beyond cultural battles and preoccupations that imperil the GOP’s ability to remake itself as a more tolerant, inclusive party and to better reach out to constituencies it has alienated.

That much-ballyhooed Republican National Committee “autopsy” into what went wrong in 2012 declared that the Republican Party needs to improve its outreach to Latinos, women, and gays, and acknowledged a need to reckon with the rising embrace of gay rights among young voters. Analysts have similarly determined that the Republican Party’s failure to improve its appeal among these groups could be problematic over the long term, because they comprise key groups in the “Rising American Electorate,” i.e., groups that are increasingly important to the Democratic coalition of the future and will only be growing as a share of the vote. Yet these big-ticket items emerging from the House appear narrowly pitched to nativists and religious and social conservatives who make up the GOP base.

Even some Republicans appear worried about this. As one unnamed GOP strategist told National Journal’s Josh Kraushaar, the King amendment on immigration “reinforces a tone of insensitivity that is just beyond baffling.” Kraushaar concluded that recent GOP behavior — including the party’s spurning of pragmatic GOP governors like Chris Christie — suggest that the RNC’s recommendations “have been forgotten.”

As one Democrat remarked to me, if anything, all of this could intensify the pressure on Republicans to pass immigration reform, since they are running out of ways to genuinely signal a new, more tolerant, more inclusive direction. Yet even here, it’s looking very possible that House Republicans may not prove able to accept a path to citizenship. This, as a new analysis of a number of polls shows public support for immigration reform is overwhelming.

Of course, the flip side of this argument is: Why should Republicans change at all? After all, thanks to geographic patterns of partisan population distribution and gerrymandering, the GOP grip on the House remains a lock, and Republicans will likely make gains in the Senate. Which raises a question that I wish the political science eggheads would answer: Are the structural aspects of our politics such that no matter how aggressively Republicans pursue policies that risk alienating core voter groups they need to improve their appeal among, it won’t materially impact the party’s fortunes? Is there a point at which any of this matters?

 
Of course, the flip side of this argument is: Why should Republicans change at all? After all, thanks to geographic patterns of partisan population distribution and gerrymandering, the GOP grip on the House remains a lock, and Republicans will likely make gains in the Senate. Which raises a question that I wish the political science eggheads would answer: Are the structural aspects of our politics such that no matter how aggressively Republicans pursue policies that risk alienating core voter groups they need to improve their appeal among, it won’t materially impact the party’s fortunes? Is there a point at which any of this matters?

Excellent question.

 
Riversco said:
Rubio is a real wildcard. 40% of people still don't even know who he is. If he runs for president, and that number drops into the teens, the percentage of latinos that support him could spike and he could defeat the democrat easily. Or it might not move at all and he could lose badly. The GOP nominating a latino is uncharted waters so its all speculation.
If you reverse the Romney-Obama splits on the Hispanic votes Romney still loses; that would mean that even with 70% of the Hispanics going for Romney he still loses. The highest Hispanic vote (recent times) for a Republican is George Bush with 44%. The Hispanic vote is not the answer.
This. I really don't understand this line of thinking. I haven't done much research on this, but common sense tells me that due to the electoral college, putting so much emphasis on a single race doesn't make any sense. For example... Ohio is a crucial state to win. Ohio's population has probably about a 3% Hispanic make up. And this past election, if every single Hispanic person voted and voted for Romney, he still would have lost Ohio. Then you look at states where the majority of Hispanics live (California, Texas, etc.). Those states are so heavily aligned with a specific party, the Hispanic vote doesn't even matter. I think Texas has a population of over 30% Hispanics. Is all of a sudden Texas going to turn blue? They haven't yet. And trotting out a Latino candidate would basically only increase the margin of the win by the Rs. And it is absurd to think that the Rs could ever win CA and they barely try. It just doesn't make logical sense to me that the Hispanic vote really matters all that much. Because of the electoral college, and the way demographics usually are in the swing states (predominantly white), it seems like this is not something that should be focused on. Florida may be the only state where any of this applies. But I don't think you can win the election if you get Florida if you don't get PA, OH, MI, etc. I think the women vote is the real area of focus and the gap seems to be getting wider and wider as time goes on and the Rs are going to have a hard time winning unless they change their brand in this area. IMHO
If you look at demographic changes, eventually Texas will turn blue. So will Arizona. The GOP ignores the Hispanic vote at its peril.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. It would be sorta funny. I just can't see it happening unless the Hispanic population continues to grow to the point that they approach 50%.
the vast majority of republicans in AZ are people over 60.It's not only Hispanics but skewed towards age as well. AZ will go blue it is just a question of when. Only mitigating factor are old Midwest retires that move here thus sustaining a hold on a red state.
 
Of course, the flip side of this argument is: Why should Republicans change at all? After all, thanks to geographic patterns of partisan population distribution and gerrymandering, the GOP grip on the House remains a lock, and Republicans will likely make gains in the Senate. Which raises a question that I wish the political science eggheads would answer: Are the structural aspects of our politics such that no matter how aggressively Republicans pursue policies that risk alienating core voter groups they need to improve their appeal among, it won’t materially impact the party’s fortunes? Is there a point at which any of this matters?

Excellent question.
No, it doesn't matter. In 2016 or 2020 the Democrats will wear out their welcome and Republicans will be back in charge. And people on some message board will be starting threads about how the Democrats are dead and they will never rise again.

 
Of course, the flip side of this argument is: Why should Republicans change at all? After all, thanks to geographic patterns of partisan population distribution and gerrymandering, the GOP grip on the House remains a lock, and Republicans will likely make gains in the Senate. Which raises a question that I wish the political science eggheads would answer: Are the structural aspects of our politics such that no matter how aggressively Republicans pursue policies that risk alienating core voter groups they need to improve their appeal among, it won’t materially impact the party’s fortunes? Is there a point at which any of this matters?

Excellent question.
No, it doesn't matter. In 2016 or 2020 the Democrats will wear out their welcome and Republicans will be back in charge. And people on some message board will be starting threads about how the Democrats are dead and they will never rise again.
Go fish.

 
GoFishTN said:
Of course, the flip side of this argument is: Why should Republicans change at all? After all, thanks to geographic patterns of partisan population distribution and gerrymandering, the GOP grip on the House remains a lock, and Republicans will likely make gains in the Senate. Which raises a question that I wish the political science eggheads would answer: Are the structural aspects of our politics such that no matter how aggressively Republicans pursue policies that risk alienating core voter groups they need to improve their appeal among, it won’t materially impact the party’s fortunes? Is there a point at which any of this matters?

Excellent question.
No, it doesn't matter. In 2016 or 2020 the Democrats will wear out their welcome and Republicans will be back in charge. And people on some message board will be starting threads about how the Democrats are dead and they will never rise again.
Go fish.
:shrug: Historically each party has the Presidency for about 12 years at most, with a couple of exceptions. Sorry if you don't like that.
Actually that's not the point. Republicans have dominated Presidential elections. Between 1968 and 2008, Republicans won 7 out of 10 Presidential elections. They did this because of the Southern strategy- after the Civil Rights movement, the South abandoned the Democratic party in droves and voted Republican.

But now, thanks to the Tea Party and especially the GOP stance on immigration that's all changed. I predict that over the next 40 years, Democrats will win 7 or 8 out of 10 elections. And if you think you can just ignore this change, you've got your head in the sand.

 
GoFishTN said:
Of course, the flip side of this argument is: Why should Republicans change at all? After all, thanks to geographic patterns of partisan population distribution and gerrymandering, the GOP grip on the House remains a lock, and Republicans will likely make gains in the Senate. Which raises a question that I wish the political science eggheads would answer: Are the structural aspects of our politics such that no matter how aggressively Republicans pursue policies that risk alienating core voter groups they need to improve their appeal among, it won’t materially impact the party’s fortunes? Is there a point at which any of this matters?

Excellent question.
No, it doesn't matter. In 2016 or 2020 the Democrats will wear out their welcome and Republicans will be back in charge. And people on some message board will be starting threads about how the Democrats are dead and they will never rise again.
Go fish.
:shrug: Historically each party has the Presidency for about 12 years at most, with a couple of exceptions. Sorry if you don't like that.
Actually that's not the point. Republicans have dominated Presidential elections. Between 1968 and 2008, Republicans won 7 out of 10 Presidential elections. They did this because of the Southern strategy- after the Civil Rights movement, the South abandoned the Democratic party in droves and voted Republican.

But now, thanks to the Tea Party and especially the GOP stance on immigration that's all changed. I predict that over the next 40 years, Democrats will win 7 or 8 out of 10 elections. And if you think you can just ignore this change, you've got your head in the sand.
Yeah, since this thread isn't really about the President, I deleted that.

 
My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.
It's because they are filled with anger. They just know what they hate, not what they want. They have no positive conservative message.

 
My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.
It's because they are filled with anger. They just know what they hate, not what they want. They have no positive conservative message.
Why are they filled with anger? What do you think is the cause of it?

 
Considering how poorly "moderate" Republican and Democrat politicians have run the govt the last 12 years I have no issue with the tea party at all

 
My issue with the Tea Party is that they leave no room for intellectual discourse. Some of their foundational precepts carry a lot of merit, but the fact that they have turned high level broad concepts into declarative hard-line stances poisons the entire process. No tax raises! No spending increases! No illegals!

It’s right in line with the complete unwillingness to listen among some of the conservatives to anything regarding gun control, no matter how popular an idea might be.

This entire fear of given an inch turning into a mile paralyzes the whole damn game.

That is the problem with the Tea Party. I know I’m generalizing like crazy, but I think it’s broadly true.
It's because they are filled with anger. They just know what they hate, not what they want. They have no positive conservative message.
Why are they filled with anger? What do you think is the cause of it?
Fear of the government and other people taking things from them. Their money, their traditions, etc. Conservative radio, Fox, and the internet feed it until it becomes a frenzy.

I'm talking about what the Tea Party has become, not what it was at the beginning. Ron Paul and his supporters have legitimate positions, IMO.

 
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/06/17/cbs-reporter-irans-hard-line-mullahs-are-just-like-the-tea-party-77678

CBS reporter: The Mullahs in Iran are just like the Tea Party.

This is such idiocy, and it represents such a fundamental misunderstanding of American politics.

First off, whatever you might think of the Tea Party, they don't represent the establishment; they are a populist revolt against the establishment, so comparing them to the well-entrenched Mullahs in Iran is simply wrong.

But of course, what this reporter meant to say is that the Mullahs in Iran are extremist over there in the same way that the Tea Party is extremist over here. And that's the part that really bugs me. As opposed as I am to the Tea Party, they are Americans with a strong belief in the values of our Founding Fathers, and in human dignity and freedom. Comparing them, or ANY American mainstream politicians on either the right or left to extremists abroad who do not share our basic values is absurd. And it demonstrates the lack of moral clarity which is so pervasive these days among some progressives.

 
Considering how poorly "moderate" Republican and Democrat politicians have run the govt the last 12 years I have no issue with the tea party at all
You consider Bush to be a moderate? (You consider Obama to be a moderate??)
No, read it again. He put moderate in quotes- he regards both Bush and Obama as Democrats. He has no issue with the Tea Party because he is one.
actually i'm not a tea party person.

my comment was regarding congress more than whoever the president happened to be the last 12 years.

considering the abysmally low ratings the US Public is giving Congress the last several years, i'm pretty sure the status quo isn't working. If the tea party shakes things up a bit, i'm for it, because our gov't as it currently exists is horribly corrupt and broken.

 
A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"
President Lincoln on the southern threat to break up the Union and blame the north if a Republican is elected President.

 
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Good to see the leftwing has found a good spot for their circle jerk. :thumbup:
Do you believe Senator Cruz' logic is sound? Do you think if the government is shut down, it will be Obama's fault?
It takes two to tango and Obama is taking a very partisan approach too. Obama knows the media will back him and will trash the GOP (and the evil Tea party), so there is very little risk to his hardline stance. I am not sure how you can separate the blame between the two sides. Both sides share in the blame.

 
Good to see the leftwing has found a good spot for their circle jerk. :thumbup:
Do you believe Senator Cruz' logic is sound? Do you think if the government is shut down, it will be Obama's fault?
It takes two to tango and Obama is taking a very partisan approach too. Obama knows the media will back him and will trash the GOP (and the evil Tea party), so there is very little risk to his hardline stance. I am not sure how you can separate the blame between the two sides. Both sides share in the blame.
You did not answer his question. Do you think Senator Cruz's logic is sound? All you did is deflect

 
Good to see the leftwing has found a good spot for their circle jerk. :thumbup:
Do you believe Senator Cruz' logic is sound? Do you think if the government is shut down, it will be Obama's fault?
Given congress is just one big game of Euchre, table talk is the best strategy Cruz has to win given the cards he holds. Some of the best table talk occurs regarding whether or not the dealer should "pick it up". It's rarely logical, but part of the game.

 
Good to see the leftwing has found a good spot for their circle jerk. :thumbup:
Do you believe Senator Cruz' logic is sound? Do you think if the government is shut down, it will be Obama's fault?
It takes two to tango and Obama is taking a very partisan approach too. Obama knows the media will back him and will trash the GOP (and the evil Tea party), so there is very little risk to his hardline stance. I am not sure how you can separate the blame between the two sides. Both sides share in the blame.
Do you regard Obama wanting Obamacare to be funded as a "hard line stance?"
 
Good to see the leftwing has found a good spot for their circle jerk. :thumbup:
Do you believe Senator Cruz' logic is sound? Do you think if the government is shut down, it will be Obama's fault?
Given congress is just one big game of Euchre, table talk is the best strategy Cruz has to win given the cards he holds. Some of the best table talk occurs regarding whether or not the dealer should "pick it up". It's rarely logical, but part of the game.
Do you believe that threatening to shut down the government over Obamacare funding is good card playing?
 

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