VY's Passer Rating = 65.7, Completion % = 51.7 (3 Viewers)

[LHUCKS]

I will take John Elway's career over whatever VY's career will become any day of the week.Are there people stating otherwise here?

No. There is a person here (bagger) stating outright that Elway was a better passer. I extended that to say I would gladly wager that Young will put up similar or better passing numbers to Elway's first 10 seasons and that people overrate Elway as a passer, which I would think/hope you have the good sense to agree with.

Well my arguments for Elway v. Young would be the following:A) He didn't rely on the scramble as much early on in his career to make big playsB) He has one of the strongest arms in the history of the NFL, possibly the strongest everC) He's smarter than VY, thus he was more likely to improve his decision making

You state C as if it is fact. What are you basing that on?

A) VY's historically low WonderlicB) Observations of John Elway over most of his career

 

[Slingblade]

I will take John Elway's career over whatever VY's career will become any day of the week.Are there people stating otherwise here?

No. There is a person here (bagger) stating outright that Elway was a better passer. I extended that to say I would gladly wager that Young will put up similar or better passing numbers to Elway's first 10 seasons and that people overrate Elway as a passer, which I would think/hope you have the good sense to agree with.

Well my arguments for Elway v. Young would be the following:A) He didn't rely on the scramble as much early on in his career to make big playsB) He has one of the strongest arms in the history of the NFL, possibly the strongest everC) He's smarter than VY, thus he was more likely to improve his decision making

You state C as if it is fact. What are you basing that on?

A) VY's historically low WonderlicB) Observations of John Elway over most of his career

Football smarts are totally different from the wonderlic.Also, Marino's low wonderlic really hurt his career didn't it?

 

[Colin Dowling]

I will take John Elway's career over whatever VY's career will become any day of the week.Are there people stating otherwise here?

No. There is a person here (bagger) stating outright that Elway was a better passer. I extended that to say I would gladly wager that Young will put up similar or better passing numbers to Elway's first 10 seasons and that people overrate Elway as a passer, which I would think/hope you have the good sense to agree with.

Well my arguments for Elway v. Young would be the following:A) He didn't rely on the scramble as much early on in his career to make big playsB) He has one of the strongest arms in the history of the NFL, possibly the strongest everC) He's smarter than VY, thus he was more likely to improve his decision making

You state C as if it is fact. What are you basing that on?

A) VY's historically low WonderlicB) Observations of John Elway over most of his career

I understand your points, but once again do not agree with them.A) I'm not entirely sure that there has ever been a rock-solid correlation established between Wonderlic and career success. I think it is a tool and while it should be considered, I don't think a low score necessarily indicates a greater chance of failure any more than a high score indicates a greater chance of success.B) Agreed, but in this case it's a moot point since we don't have a full career to look at for Young.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

A) VY's historically low WonderlicB) Observations of John Elway over most of his career

The basis of your entire argument about Vince Young essentially rests on Wonderlic-gate, whether you realize it or not.At every turn, you make basic assumptions about what he won't be able to learn to do and I can only assume it is because of this one piece of "evidence". Because it sure isn't based on anything he has shown on the field, in practice or in team meetings (based on comments from coaches and teammates over the years). His Wonderlic score would probably be a very valid criteria for Kaplan to not hire him as an SAT test prep teacher, but it isn't a very good piece of evidence to use to assess his ability to play the QB position at a high level.You are also basing your assessment of John Elways "smarts" on how he played over "most of his career". Since he played 16 years and has been retired for at least five years, I am going to assume that "most of his career" generally relates more to the later years, when he was a real seen-it-all type veteran. Since you were clearly pretty young, perhaps in diapers, when Elway was a rookie, I can't imagine you recall one bit about the amount of football intelligence he showed back then. Which, frankly, wasn't all that spectacular. He had a tendency to overestimate his ability to throw balls into tight spaces, due to his superior arm strength, which resulted in lots of interceptions. So, once again, you are using one piece of shaky evidence to knock a rookie's ability to do something in the future, despite some pretty strong contrary evidence. And to make it the more ridiculous, you say you are comparing Young's current decision making to the decision making displayed in the later years of his career by a HOFer who played 16 seasons.Somebody said he was embarassed for you earlier. Those feelings must be growing more acute by the minute.

 

[aldelgreco]

F Beowulf.

and LHUCKS

 

[John Mamula]

Why do you insist on using Vick as your comparison, why not Elway? He was a scrambling QB as well?

Or Steve Young? Or...

Because Elway and Young threw the ball much better than Vick or Young ever will.Care to wager on that?

I will gladly wager that Vince Young (in the next 10 years) will put up similar/better passing stats (%, YPA, and TD/INT ratio) compared to Elway (in his first 10 years). People VASTLY over-rate John Elway's whole career (ETA) as a passer in hindsight. That's fine and all, but let's not act like Elway was a fantastic passer for the bulk of his career. He was much moreso a winner who could make plays when it mattered and scrambled well. Sort of like Vince Young.

Excellent comparison, Bagger.

So you're on record that in VY's 3rd year he'll pass for over 3,800 yards as Elway did.:fiddlefaddle:

 

[swingerd]

A) VY's historically low WonderlicB) Observations of John Elway over most of his career

The basis of your entire argument about Vince Young essentially rests on Wonderlic-gate, whether you realize it or not.At every turn, you make basic assumptions about what he won't be able to learn to do and I can only assume it is because of this one piece of "evidence". Because it sure isn't based on anything he has shown on the field, in practice or in team meetings (based on comments from coaches and teammates over the years). His Wonderlic score would probably be a very valid criteria for Kaplan to not hire him as an SAT test prep teacher, but it isn't a very good piece of evidence to use to assess his ability to play the QB position at a high level.You are also basing your assessment of John Elways "smarts" on how he played over "most of his career". Since he played 16 years and has been retired for at least five years, I am going to assume that "most of his career" generally relates more to the later years, when he was a real seen-it-all type veteran. Since you were clearly pretty young, perhaps in diapers, when Elway was a rookie, I can't imagine you recall one bit about the amount of football intelligence he showed back then. Which, frankly, wasn't all that spectacular. He had a tendency to overestimate his ability to throw balls into tight spaces, due to his superior arm strength, which resulted in lots of interceptions. So, once again, you are using one piece of shaky evidence to knock a rookie's ability to do something in the future, despite some pretty strong contrary evidence. And to make it the more ridiculous, you say you are comparing Young's current decision making to the decision making displayed in the later years of his career by a HOFer who played 16 seasons.Somebody said he was embarassed for you earlier. Those feelings must be growing more acute by the minute.

Very well said post! Job well done!

 

[LHUCKS]

A) VY's historically low WonderlicB) Observations of John Elway over most of his career

I understand your points, but once again do not agree with them.A) I'm not entirely sure that there has ever been a rock-solid correlation established between Wonderlic and career success. I think it is a tool and while it should be considered, I don't think a low score necessarily indicates a greater chance of failure any more than a high score indicates a greater chance of success.

Right, I used smarts as one of three arguments for Elway...I never said there is a "rock solid correlation", nor did I imply it.Brett Favre doesn't strike me as a rocket scientist, but he's arguably the best QB to play the game.

 

[LHUCKS]

Somebody said he was embarassed for you earlier. Those feelings must be growing more acute by the minute.

Until you can quit with the juvenile remarks, I will not be responding to your posts.At no point in this thread have I been condescending first to someone. You have gone out of your way to do so.Posts like the one above bring down this board and it's unfortunate that persons need to resort to this sort of tone to make themselves feel better about themselves and/or their argument.We are objectively discussing the prospects of a player here, if you can't check your emotions at the door you may want to revisit your elementary school education.

 

[dparker713]

Why do you insist on using Vick as your comparison, why not Elway? He was a scrambling QB as well?

Or Steve Young? Or...

Because Elway and Young threw the ball much better than Vick or Young ever will.Care to wager on that?

I will gladly wager that Vince Young (in the next 10 years) will put up similar/better passing stats (%, YPA, and TD/INT ratio) compared to Elway (in his first 10 years). People VASTLY over-rate John Elway's whole career (ETA) as a passer in hindsight. That's fine and all, but let's not act like Elway was a fantastic passer for the bulk of his career. He was much moreso a winner who could make plays when it mattered and scrambled well. Sort of like Vince Young.

Excellent comparison, Bagger.

So you're on record that in VY's 3rd year he'll pass for over 3,800 yards as Elway did.:fiddlefaddle:

If you actually read his post he said nothing of the sort. And a 10 year aggregate is not invalidated by a single anomolous year. Try to make a comment on point next time.

 

[Berserker]

I like the quote at the end..."VY is the real deal"

Yeah, that was from Bobby Wade. He also talked about VY's work ethic and passion for the game, "You get out what you put in." Sounds simple, but says a whole lot about what most people don't realize yet.

 

[diesel7982]

I like the quote at the end..."VY is the real deal"

Yeah, that was from Bobby Wade. He also talked about VY's work ethic and passion for the game, "You get out what you put in." Sounds simple, but says a whole lot about what most people don't realize yet.

:cough: LenDale White :cough:

 

[John Mamula]

Why do you insist on using Vick as your comparison, why not Elway? He was a scrambling QB as well?

Or Steve Young? Or...

Because Elway and Young threw the ball much better than Vick or Young ever will.Care to wager on that?

I will gladly wager that Vince Young (in the next 10 years) will put up similar/better passing stats (%, YPA, and TD/INT ratio) compared to Elway (in his first 10 years). People VASTLY over-rate John Elway's whole career (ETA) as a passer in hindsight. That's fine and all, but let's not act like Elway was a fantastic passer for the bulk of his career. He was much moreso a winner who could make plays when it mattered and scrambled well. Sort of like Vince Young.

Excellent comparison, Bagger.

So you're on record that in VY's 3rd year he'll pass for over 3,800 yards as Elway did.:fiddlefaddle:

If you actually read his post he said nothing of the sort. And a 10 year aggregate is not invalidated by a single anomolous year. Try to make a comment on point next time.

i'll take that too.there is no way in hell VY will approach elway's numbers of consistantly throwing up 3,500 yards a year.

he'll be a consistant mid to high 2000 yard passing guy and maybe he'll catch lightning in a bottle and get 3001 yards one year.

then you can bump this thread.

 

[Colin Dowling]

Why do you insist on using Vick as your comparison, why not Elway? He was a scrambling QB as well?

Or Steve Young? Or...

Because Elway and Young threw the ball much better than Vick or Young ever will.Care to wager on that?

I will gladly wager that Vince Young (in the next 10 years) will put up similar/better passing stats (%, YPA, and TD/INT ratio) compared to Elway (in his first 10 years). People VASTLY over-rate John Elway's whole career (ETA) as a passer in hindsight. That's fine and all, but let's not act like Elway was a fantastic passer for the bulk of his career. He was much moreso a winner who could make plays when it mattered and scrambled well. Sort of like Vince Young.

Excellent comparison, Bagger.

So you're on record that in VY's 3rd year he'll pass for over 3,800 yards as Elway did.:fiddlefaddle:

If you actually read his post he said nothing of the sort. And a 10 year aggregate is not invalidated by a single anomolous year. Try to make a comment on point next time.

i'll take that too.there is no way in hell VY will approach elway's numbers of consistantly throwing up 3,500 yards a year.

he'll be a consistant mid to high 2000 yard passing guy and maybe he'll catch lightning in a bottle and get 3001 yards one year.

then you can bump this thread.

I'm talking about John Elway. Who are you talking about when you reference "consistantly throwing up 3,500 yards/year?"

(So you don't have to look, Elway averaged 3200 yards a year and only brok 3500 6 times in 16 seasons. )

 

[John Mamula]

I'm talking about John Elway. Who are you talking about when you reference throwing up 3,500 yards/year?

from 1985 to 1997 (a 13 year stretch) elway averaged over 3,400 yards passing per year.in order to beat that VY would need more. this is the best representative sample out of elway's career and i would even give you any 13 year consistant stretch of VY's career to match it. listen, it's great that VY is getting your beloved titans some wins. its a great story. but don't blow smoke up my ### and tell me he is going to be better than HOF QBs.

 

[LHUCKS]

F Beowulf.and LHUCKS

Example A of what the shark pool is during the season...make sure you check out his sig.

 

[John Mamula]

F Beowulf.and LHUCKS

Example A of what the shark pool is during the season...make sure you check out his sig.

gb signatures turned off.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

in his first 10 seasons, John Elway averaged:

237.5 completions, 433.9 attempts, 54.7 completion %, 3021.6 passing yards, 15.8 TDs and 15.7 INTs

49.4 rush attempts for 228 yards and 2.2 rushing TDs

more briefly: 238 of 434 (55%), 3022yds, 6.96 Y/A, 16TD/16INT, 49 rushes, 228 yards, 2 TDs

 

[Colin Dowling]

I'm talking about John Elway. Who are you talking about when you reference throwing up 3,500 yards/year?

from 1985 to 1997 (a 13 year stretch) elway averaged over 3,400 yards passing per year.in order to beat that VY would need more. this is the best representative sample out of elway's career and i would even give you any 13 year consistant stretch of VY's career to match it. listen, it's great that VY is getting your beloved titans some wins. its a great story. but don't blow smoke up my ### and tell me he is going to be better than HOF QBs.

I never said he'd be better than a HOF QB. I said I would gladly wager that his passing numbers his first ten years would be equal to or better than John Elway's, and I stand by that.

 

[dparker713]

Why do you insist on using Vick as your comparison, why not Elway? He was a scrambling QB as well?

Or Steve Young? Or...

Because Elway and Young threw the ball much better than Vick or Young ever will.Care to wager on that?

I will gladly wager that Vince Young (in the next 10 years) will put up similar/better passing stats (%, YPA, and TD/INT ratio) compared to Elway (in his first 10 years). People VASTLY over-rate John Elway's whole career (ETA) as a passer in hindsight. That's fine and all, but let's not act like Elway was a fantastic passer for the bulk of his career. He was much moreso a winner who could make plays when it mattered and scrambled well. Sort of like Vince Young.

Excellent comparison, Bagger.

So you're on record that in VY's 3rd year he'll pass for over 3,800 yards as Elway did.:fiddlefaddle:

If you actually read his post he said nothing of the sort. And a 10 year aggregate is not invalidated by a single anomolous year. Try to make a comment on point next time.

i'll take that too.there is no way in hell VY will approach elway's numbers of consistantly throwing up 3,500 yards a year.

he'll be a consistant mid to high 2000 yard passing guy and maybe he'll catch lightning in a bottle and get 3001 yards one year.

then you can bump this thread.

You STILL havent read what he wrote. He never said total yards. %, YPA, TD/INT ratio. Reading is fundamental.

 

[LHUCKS]

I never said he'd be better than a HOF QB. I said I would gladly wager that his passing numbers his first ten years would be equal to or better than John Elway's, and I stand by that.

But if he does this he will most likely be an HOFer given his running ability, NO?

 

[John Mamula]

in his first 10 seasons, John Elway averaged:237.5 completions, 433.9 attempts, 54.7 completion %, 3021.6 passing yards, 15.8 TDs and 15.7 INTs49.4 rush attempts for 228 yards and 2.2 rushing TDsmore briefly: 238 of 434 (55%), 3022yds, 16TD/16INT, 49 rushes, 228 yards, 2 TDs

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Until you can quit with the juvenile remarks, I will not be responding to your posts.At no point in this thread have I been condescending first to someone. You have gone out of your way to do so.Posts like the one above bring down this board and it's unfortunate that persons need to resort to this sort of tone to make themselves feel better about themselves and/or their argument.We are objectively discussing the prospects of a player here, if you can't check your emotions at the door you may want to revisit your elementary school education.

Such delicate feelings.People won't talk down to you if you don't give them a reason to.And, just for the record, the reason isn't your opinion about Vince Young, it is the utter tripe that you trot out in the name of "analysis" to support it.

 

[Colin Dowling]

I never said he'd be better than a HOF QB. I said I would gladly wager that his passing numbers his first ten years would be equal to or better than John Elway's, and I stand by that.

But if he does this he will most likely be an HOFer given his running ability, NO?

It will come down to wins, losses, and longevity. There are a number of QBs with year over year statistics similar to (or better) then Elway who are not in the Hall of Fame and likely won't ever be.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

so Vince needs to have a HOF career to be worthy of praise and hype?

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

in his first 10 seasons, John Elway averaged:237.5 completions, 433.9 attempts, 54.7 completion %, 3021.6 passing yards, 15.8 TDs and 15.7 INTs49.4 rush attempts for 228 yards and 2.2 rushing TDsmore briefly: 238 of 434 (55%), 3022yds, 16TD/16INT, 49 rushes, 228 yards, 2 TDs

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

why backpedal now?

 

[LHUCKS]

It will come down to wins, losses, and longevity. There are a number of QBs with year over year statistics similar to (or better) then Elway who are not in the Hall of Fame and likely won't ever be.

But nobody has had Elway's passing yards with VY's rushing skills.

 

[John Mamula]

You STILL havent read what he wrote. He never said total yards. %, YPA, TD/INT ratio. Reading is fundamental.

total passing yards tells me a better picture of a qb's passing success. i still think he'll be wrong on those stats too but i find it laughable that none of the stats he is saying reflect total numbers, but rather ratios. those #s are a lot less telling than totals.

 

[Colin Dowling]

in his first 10 seasons, John Elway averaged:237.5 completions, 433.9 attempts, 54.7 completion %, 3021.6 passing yards, 15.8 TDs and 15.7 INTs49.4 rush attempts for 228 yards and 2.2 rushing TDsmore briefly: 238 of 434 (55%), 3022yds, 16TD/16INT, 49 rushes, 228 yards, 2 TDs

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

Again: You are the only person talking about "the bulk of Elway's playing career" or a term of 13 straight years. Those numbers are not in dispute in the slightest.

 

[John Mamula]

in his first 10 seasons, John Elway averaged:237.5 completions, 433.9 attempts, 54.7 completion %, 3021.6 passing yards, 15.8 TDs and 15.7 INTs49.4 rush attempts for 228 yards and 2.2 rushing TDsmore briefly: 238 of 434 (55%), 3022yds, 16TD/16INT, 49 rushes, 228 yards, 2 TDs

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

why backpedal now?

are you saying that VY will be able to average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years?you're out of your league here son. best watch from the sidelines.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

you do admit that Elway's passing stats over his first 10 seasons weren't all that impressive though, right?I don't think Vince needs to throw for 3500 yards/year to be one of the league's best QBs. Where does offensive system and surrounding talent come into play? What about wins and losses?Do you really think he needs to throw for all those yards to be considered a very good QB?(FTR, Troy Aikman never threw for 3500 yards in a single season. Jim Kelly only did it twice in the NFL. Seems like a pretty high standard for a QB who can contribute so much with his running ability.)

 

[LHUCKS]

so Vince needs to have a HOF career to be worthy of praise and hype?

No, my argument all along has been with the use of the word "great."I'd say McNair has had a great career.I'd say Cunningham had a few great years.I'd say these guys are a good sample set of "great" running QBs.

 

[John Mamula]

lmFAo at a guy with Longhorn in the name acting if he is a legitimately impartial observer in this debate.

don't worry, you'll be back to getting bent over by the sooners over the next 7 years. just sit back and enjoy it.

 

[Colin Dowling]

You STILL havent read what he wrote. He never said total yards. %, YPA, TD/INT ratio. Reading is fundamental.

total passing yards tells me a better picture of a qb's passing success. i still think he'll be wrong on those stats too but i find it laughable that none of the stats he is saying reflect total numbers, but rather ratios. those #s are a lot less telling than totals.

You're the one who brought up John Elway by saying he had superior passing ability. I pointed out that Elway's passing stats for the bulk of his career were overrated. I'm confused as to how this turned in to a discussion of Elway's career and total stats when I'm simply going by your terms, i.e. Elway's passing ability.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

in his first 10 seasons, John Elway averaged:237.5 completions, 433.9 attempts, 54.7 completion %, 3021.6 passing yards, 15.8 TDs and 15.7 INTs49.4 rush attempts for 228 yards and 2.2 rushing TDsmore briefly: 238 of 434 (55%), 3022yds, 16TD/16INT, 49 rushes, 228 yards, 2 TDs

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

why backpedal now?

are you saying that VY will be able to average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years?you're out of your league here son. best watch from the sidelines.

Whatever. You are the one backpedaling.

 

[John Mamula]

first, considering i was the first person in this thread to actually start posting stats on elway, you're not telling me anything i don't know.please see my above post that more accruately represents the bulk of elway's playing career. i can just as easily pick a representative sample that states elway's case as you can for young's.have VY average over 3,400 yards for 13 straight years (starting at any time) and we'll talk.

you do admit that Elway's passing stats over his first 10 seasons weren't all that impressive though, right?I don't think Vince needs to throw for 3500 yards/year to be one of the league's best QBs. Where does offensive system and surrounding talent come into play? What about wins and losses?Do you really think he needs to throw for all those yards to be considered a very good QB?

they are "good" and i think they will be better than VY's.but when you take out the first couple years and look at elway's prime 13 years of his career, VY isn't touching that.

 

[John Mamula]

You STILL havent read what he wrote. He never said total yards. %, YPA, TD/INT ratio. Reading is fundamental.

total passing yards tells me a better picture of a qb's passing success. i still think he'll be wrong on those stats too but i find it laughable that none of the stats he is saying reflect total numbers, but rather ratios. those #s are a lot less telling than totals.

You're the one who brought up John Elway by saying he had superior passing ability. I pointed out that Elway's passing stats for the bulk of his career were overrated. I'm confused as to how this turned in to a discussion of Elway's career and total stats when I'm simply going by your terms, i.e. Elway's passing ability.

it turned into that when switz asked me why i wasn't comparing VY to elway. i thought that was laughable.i am looking at average total passing yards (i.e. passing ability comparing to a QB who runs) as people are refuting the point that i made of VY not being a passing qb. VY will not average 3,000 in his first 10 years IMO and certainly won't touch over 3,400 yards per year in a 13 year stretch. that's the only point i made (and stated that VY will never be a #1 ff QB).he certainly appears to be a winner, but so did roethlesberger in year 1. once game tape accumulates on VY i am thinking defensive coordinators will eat him up in the coming years and is why i am not projecting his stats on a hockey stick type curve.you like VY because he is giving your team wins. that's great. so did trent dilfer for the ravens.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

but when you take out the first couple years and look at elway's prime 13 years of his career, VY isn't touching that.

so Vince Young may not ever be the passer that John Elway was. No shame in that...Elway is in the conversation as one of the best QBs of all time. What does that really prove here?Steve McNair has never thrown for 3400 yards in a single season but he's won a league MVP award and taken his team to the Super Bowl. Vince Young can't do something similar?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

that's the only point i made (and stated that VY will never be a #1 ff QB).

how do you think Vince compares to a player like Culpepper? He was the #1 fantasy QB in 4 of 5 seasons thanks to his rushing ability and having studs like Moss and Carter to throw to. Put Vince Young on those Vikings teams and you don't think he could put up monster fantasy numbers?

 

[John Mamula]

but when you take out the first couple years and look at elway's prime 13 years of his career, VY isn't touching that.

so Vince Young may not ever be the passer that John Elway was. No shame in that...Elway is in the conversation as one of the best QBs of all time. What does that really prove here?Steve McNair has never thrown for 3400 yards in a single season but he's won a league MVP award and taken his team to the Super Bowl. Vince Young can't do something similar?

sure he could. but that doesn't mean he is a great passing qb.there was some notion that by stating tha VY was more of a running QB was racist and ignorant. he is what he is.he could have a year where he leads a good titans team to the superbowl. sure. but is he going to be some prolific passer. probably not.

 

[John Mamula]

that's the only point i made (and stated that VY will never be a #1 ff QB).

how do you think Vince compares to a player like Culpepper? He was the #1 fantasy QB in 4 of 5 seasons thanks to his rushing ability and having studs like Moss and Carter to throw to. Put Vince Young on those Vikings teams and you don't think he could put up monster fantasy numbers?

i think culpepper was a better passing qb than VY.

 

[Berserker]

I like the quote at the end..."VY is the real deal"

Yeah, that was from Bobby Wade. He also talked about VY's work ethic and passion for the game, "You get out what you put in." Sounds simple, but says a whole lot about what most people don't realize yet.

:cough: LenDale White :cough:

White is very immature right now, but it's too early to give up on him. He does have a passion for the game and hopefully will grow up and learn that he needs a strong work ethic to go along with it.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

sure he could. but that doesn't mean he is a great passing qb.there was some notion that by stating tha VY was more of a running QB was racist and ignorant. he is what he is.he could have a year where he leads a good titans team to the superbowl. sure. but is he going to be some prolific passer. probably not.

I don't think he needs to be a great and/or prolific passing QB to be considered a great QB. Do you?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

i think culpepper was a better passing qb than VY.

with regard to your assertion about Vick and VY never finishing as the #1 fantasy QB, does it surprise you that Vick is averaging more fantasy points per game this year than Carson Palmer and Marc Bulger in FBG standard scoring (4pts per passing TD)?what about Vince Young averaging more fantasy points per game than Matt Leinart, Jake Delhomme, Rex Grossman, Chad Pennington, Steve McNair, David Carr, Alex Smith, and JP Losman despite having much less surrounding talent to work with than nearly all of them?

 

[Biabreakable]

pure clap clap clap

There is no position presented here to rebutt. Honestly it is very lazy and uninformative posting LHUCKS although others did step in to build some meaningful discussion here.

Vince Young may not ever be a high completion percentage passer but we do not know that he won't be either. Based on our small sample of 10 games of his rookie career his completion percentage is improving.

His worst game so far this year I would say was against the Jaguars. Jacksonville has a very good defense. They make a lot of players look bad. If Young does better than 15cmp 36att 163yds 1TD 3int against them the 2nd time around I would have to consider that to be further evidence that he is improving as well.

As far as comparing Young to Leinart.. its kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Leinart is in a perfect system situation and supporting cast (- offensive line) while Young has ??? I don't see how such a comparison would be useful unless it is to point out that Young is doing more with less?

Anyhow have fun fishing.

 

[cstu]

so Vince needs to have a HOF career to be worthy of praise and hype?

Yeah, because like Michael Vick he could eventually make it into the HOF and people would continue to say he sucks based on his passing ability.

 

[chuckmorris]

VY need only become an entertaining novelty for it to have been a business mistake for Houston not to pick him. If he develops into an amazing NFL qb it will be among one of the worst business decisions of all time.

Agreed, though it'll never match the price the Vikes paid to the Cowboys for Herschel Walker, and if there was ever a worse deal made in the NFL, I can't imagine what it could have been. Of course, as a Dallas homer (living elsewhere for the past few years), I was tickled pink at the deal. The Vikes apparently never anticipated that the Cowboys could hang onto the players involved in the trade AND cash in on the conditional draft picks tied to each of them too.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

that's the only point i made (and stated that VY will never be a #1 ff QB

Over the last 5 weeks in my league, Young is the #3 ranked FF qb, behind only Palmer and Brees. I'd say that qualifies for #1 qb status over that time period and maybe for some weeks forward.

 

[Hunterbeer]

LHucks,

Since you did not bother to actually answer anything in my post, please help me see what you are thinking. You "claim" that Donovan Mcnabb was considered a "much better passer" coming out of college than was Vince Young. I went back and found actual articles quoting NFL GM's about McNabb that showed this was not the case, Your only reply was that you were sure you heard it on TV somewhere. Seems I had actual facts, you have, well, nothing. I have shown that in college, Vince Young outperformed Mcnabb from a PASSING standpoint. You showed, well, nothing but the statement that you were sure he was a better passer. The statistics show that Young as a Junior outperformed McNabb as a passer. The statistics show that despite coming out one year early, Young STILL outperformed the "more ready for the NFL McNabb" as a rookie in passing (not just running, where he beat him as well). The statistics show that Vince Young has improved EVERY year for the last five years. Yet you allow McNabb (wonderlic of 12, btw) to show great improvement and do not allow the same for Young? Why? You have absolutely NO statistical evidence on your side, only conjecture. Can you not at least admit that all of the evidence points to Young continuing to improve? WHy should he not be better than McNabb? Remember, this was the same McNabb that had enough GMs worried that they thought Tim Couch AND Cade McKnown were safer picks. I can go back and repost all of the statistics, but you know they show Young as a rapidly improving QB who put up better numbers than McNabb at the same point of their careers. Awww, what the heck, I'll repost the college stats for their respective Junior years:

McNabb: 265 attempts; 54.7% completion; 20 TDs; 6 INTs; 154.0 passer rating; 9.39 per attempt

Young: 325 attempts; 65.2%; 26 TDs; 10 INTs; 163.95; 9.34 per attempt. (Oh, and a National Championship)

So, given that all of the statistical evidnece is on one side (hint: not yours); that Young now has the "great" Norm Chow to work under; and that he is clearly winning over his teammates; why should we believe you that he will not improve as much as McNabb did? What did Mcnabb have in his favor, other than your selective memory of his passing skills? I am very intrigued as to your answer and marvel that a NFL team has not snatched you up as a scout for your observations. Please enlighten us all.

 

[icehouse]

LHucks,Since you did not bother to actually answer anything in my post, please help me see what you are thinking. You "claim" that Donovan Mcnabb was considered a "much better passer" coming out of college than was Vince Young. I went back and found actual articles quoting NFL GM's about McNabb that showed this was not the case, Your only reply was that you were sure you heard it on TV somewhere. Seems I had actual facts, you have, well, nothing. I have shown that in college, Vince Young outperformed Mcnabb from a PASSING standpoint. You showed, well, nothing but the statement that you were sure he was a better passer. The statistics show that Young as a Junior outperformed McNabb as a passer. The statistics show that despite coming out one year early, Young STILL outperformed the "more ready for the NFL McNabb" as a rookie in passing (not just running, where he beat him as well). The statistics show that Vince Young has improved EVERY year for the last five years. Yet you allow McNabb (wonderlic of 12, btw) to show great improvement and do not allow the same for Young? Why? You have absolutely NO statistical evidence on your side, only conjecture. Can you not at least admit that all of the evidence points to Young continuing to improve? WHy should he not be better than McNabb? Remember, this was the same McNabb that had enough GMs worried that they thought Tim Couch AND Cade McKnown were safer picks. I can go back and repost all of the statistics, but you know they show Young as a rapidly improving QB who put up better numbers than McNabb at the same point of their careers. Awww, what the heck, I'll repost the college stats for their respective Junior years:McNabb: 265 attempts; 54.7% completion; 20 TDs; 6 INTs; 154.0 passer rating; 9.39 per attemptYoung: 325 attempts; 65.2%; 26 TDs; 10 INTs; 163.95; 9.34 per attempt. (Oh, and a National Championship) So, given that all of the statistical evidnece is on one side (hint: not yours); that Young now has the "great" Norm Chow to work under; and that he is clearly winning over his teammates; why should we believe you that he will not improve as much as McNabb did? What did Mcnabb have in his favor, other than your selective memory of his passing skills? I am very intrigued as to your answer and marvel that a NFL team has not snatched you up as a scout for your observations. Please enlighten us all.

Dude, LHucks has seen your posts, and others that he keeps ignoring. May as well stop asking him. He has nothing to back his opinion up, and you (and others) have already dismantled his early arguments.SI is back on the bandwagon...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/covers/issues/2006/1218.html