War in Israel (3 Viewers)

[Gatorman]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

 

[beer 30]

I take every opportunity I can to promote a great podcast on the subject of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's a 6 part long form podcast from Martyrmade (Darryl Cooper). Very similar to a Dan Carlin podcast if you're familiar with him. First episode is linked below, listen if you like.

Fear & Loathing in the New Jerusalem
The conflict between Israel and Palestine can often seem like a permanent feature of the global order. The wars, intifadas, refugees camps, suicide vests, UN resolutions, and peace talks have been painfully burned into our collective consciousness. But how could this have happened? Was it always this way? That’s what we’ll seek to find out in Fear & Loathing in the New Jerusalem, a multi-part series exploring the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[Manster]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

Tell us how you really feel....

I see a lock coming on this bad boy

 

[timschochet]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

There is nobody left alive, either in the IDF or Hamas, who had anything to do with Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel, both of which took place in the 1940s. Hamas didn’t even exist, and both incidents were performed by the Irgun which no longer exists. These incidents and many others perpetrated by both sides of this conflict are important history but not especially relevant to 2023.
If you want to make the argument that Israeli policies under the current Netanyahu government have led to this situation, or even that the events since 1967 have led to the situation, you would do a little better IMO. But even so nothing justifies terrorism.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Israel should have never stopped in 1967. We wouldn't have a problem today.

 

[timschochet]

It’s really lazy to collectivize motivations and unfortunately people do it all the time. Not every Palestinian wants the destruction of Israel. Even the supporters of Hamas differ on this. Not every Israeli has the same view about the Palestinians.

In this country one can be a supporter of Israel without being a supporter of Netanyahu. One can be a critic of Israel without being an anti-Semite. One can be pro-Palestinian, and believe that Israel is totally in the wrong, without believing that terrorism is the answer. We live in a very troubled, complex world and “either-or” attitudes are very dangerous. That being said, we should all agree that there can be no real justification for the murder of innocent people no matter who the perpetrator is.

 

[ren hoek]

Israel is the real terrorist here. They don't get to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians for decades and act like the victim.

It is sad but what did we expect to happen when diplomacy failed, and the world turned its back on them?

Thread by @BtSIsrael on Thread Reader App

@BtSIsrael: Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable. We could talk about their cruel and criminal actions, or focus on how our Jewish-supremacist govt brought us to this point. But as...…

threadreaderapp.com

If the Palestinians would lay down their arms and refuse to fight Israel anymore, they would co-exist in peace.

If Israel would lay down their arms and refuse to fight the Palestinians anymore, they would driven out of the country by force.

You know it, I know it and the whole world knows it which is why they let Israel be heavy handed.

Name one instance of the Jewish people acting even remotely like what happened this week? Slaughtering 100's of civilians? Women and children? Taking hostages with public executions?

I'm going to stop there and reserve what I really think of your post, but suffice it to say I disagree. Strongly.

My only point is that these events didn't just fall from the sky over the weekend. They were precipitated by decades of ethnic cleansing. We don't hear about IDF spraying skunk spray around palestinian neighborhoods or blockading imports so that civilian populations starve. Or how they are regularly harassed at military checkpoints just trying to lead a regular life. Just complete dehumanization for generations now.

That doesn't make what Hamas did right. That thread i posted is former IDF soldiers explaining the real nature of the occupation. It's just important to understand they've been left with basically no other option than to become radicalized.

 

[ChiefD]

Just want to thank all of you for a seemingly good discussion of what is going on over there. I've learned a lot in here and I hope it stays this way for awhile. I'm not smart enough to understand everything of what's going on there, but so far his thread has been a good source for the main points and such.

 

[timschochet]

Israel should have never stopped in 1967. We wouldn't have a problem today.

But what does this mean? In 1967 they occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Golan. What else should they have done?

 

[timschochet]

Israel is the real terrorist here. They don't get to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians for decades and act like the victim.

It is sad but what did we expect to happen when diplomacy failed, and the world turned its back on them?

Thread by @BtSIsrael on Thread Reader App

@BtSIsrael: Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable. We could talk about their cruel and criminal actions, or focus on how our Jewish-supremacist govt brought us to this point. But as...…

threadreaderapp.com

If the Palestinians would lay down their arms and refuse to fight Israel anymore, they would co-exist in peace.

If Israel would lay down their arms and refuse to fight the Palestinians anymore, they would driven out of the country by force.

You know it, I know it and the whole world knows it which is why they let Israel be heavy handed.

Name one instance of the Jewish people acting even remotely like what happened this week? Slaughtering 100's of civilians? Women and children? Taking hostages with public executions?

I'm going to stop there and reserve what I really think of your post, but suffice it to say I disagree. Strongly.

My only point is that these events didn't just fall from the sky over the weekend. They were precipitated by decades of ethnic cleansing. We don't hear about IDF spraying skunk spray around palestinian neighborhoods or blockading imports so that civilian populations starve. Or how they are regularly harassed at military checkpoints just trying to lead a regular life. Just complete dehumanization for generations now.

That doesn't make what Hamas did right. That thread i posted is former IDF soldiers explaining the real nature of the occupation. It's just important to understand they've been left with basically no other option than to become radicalized.

I agree with everything you wrote here except the last sentence. I can see why they became radicalized. I can even empathize with their reasoning. But with regard to the actual terrorists at some point they chose to murder innocent people, including young children. Surely that’s an evil act of volition for which no circumstances can ever justify.

 

[Gatorman]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

Well, I'm 54 years old. You got anything since I was born?

 

[ren hoek]

It's best not to engage with trolls if you want this thread to stay open.

Am I a troll? If I am, I will try to stop being one.

Not directed at you at all.

What exactly was 'trolling' Ivan? I've only seen people posting genuinely

Israel is the real terrorist here. They don't get to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians for decades and act like the victim.

It is sad but what did we expect to happen when diplomacy failed, and the world turned its back on them?

Thread by @BtSIsrael on Thread Reader App

@BtSIsrael: Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable. We could talk about their cruel and criminal actions, or focus on how our Jewish-supremacist govt brought us to this point. But as...…

threadreaderapp.com

If the Palestinians would lay down their arms and refuse to fight Israel anymore, they would co-exist in peace.

If Israel would lay down their arms and refuse to fight the Palestinians anymore, they would driven out of the country by force.

You know it, I know it and the whole world knows it which is why they let Israel be heavy handed.

Name one instance of the Jewish people acting even remotely like what happened this week? Slaughtering 100's of civilians? Women and children? Taking hostages with public executions?

I'm going to stop there and reserve what I really think of your post, but suffice it to say I disagree. Strongly.

My only point is that these events didn't just fall from the sky over the weekend. They were precipitated by decades of ethnic cleansing. We don't hear about IDF spraying skunk spray around palestinian neighborhoods or blockading imports so that civilian populations starve. Or how they are regularly harassed at military checkpoints just trying to lead a regular life. Just complete dehumanization for generations now.

That doesn't make what Hamas did right. That thread i posted is former IDF soldiers explaining the real nature of the occupation. It's just important to understand they've been left with basically no other option than to become radicalized.

I agree with everything you wrote here except the last sentence. I can see why they became radicalized. I can even empathize with their reasoning. But with regard to the actual terrorists at some point they chose to murder innocent people, including young children. Surely that’s an evil act of volition for which no circumstances can ever justify.

Agree 100%

 

[Navin Johnson]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

There is nobody left alive, either in the IDF or Hamas, who had anything to do with Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel, both of which took place in the 1940s. Hamas didn’t even exist, and both incidents were performed by the Irgun which no longer exists. These incidents and many others perpetrated by both sides of this conflict are important history but not especially relevant to 2023.
If you want to make the argument that Israeli policies under the current Netanyahu government have led to this situation, or even that the events since 1967 have led to the situation, you would do a little better IMO. But even so nothing justifies terrorism.

The Irgun doesn't exist because it was absorbed into the IDF in 1948, which makes it more plausible that their ideologies were also absorbed in some part by early Israeli leadership. This conflict didn't start this weekend. It is a product of decades of aggression

 

[Snotbubbles]

Israel is the real terrorist here. They don't get to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians for decades and act like the victim.

It is sad but what did we expect to happen when diplomacy failed, and the world turned its back on them?

Thread by @BtSIsrael on Thread Reader App

@BtSIsrael: Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable. We could talk about their cruel and criminal actions, or focus on how our Jewish-supremacist govt brought us to this point. But as...…

threadreaderapp.com

If the Palestinians would lay down their arms and refuse to fight Israel anymore, they would co-exist in peace.

If Israel would lay down their arms and refuse to fight the Palestinians anymore, they would driven out of the country by force.

You know it, I know it and the whole world knows it which is why they let Israel be heavy handed.

Name one instance of the Jewish people acting even remotely like what happened this week? Slaughtering 100's of civilians? Women and children? Taking hostages with public executions?

I'm going to stop there and reserve what I really think of your post, but suffice it to say I disagree. Strongly.

My only point is that these events didn't just fall from the sky over the weekend. They were precipitated by decades of ethnic cleansing. We don't hear about IDF spraying skunk spray around palestinian neighborhoods or blockading imports so that civilian populations starve. Or how they are regularly harassed at military checkpoints just trying to lead a regular life. Just complete dehumanization for generations now.

That doesn't make what Hamas did right. That thread i posted is former IDF soldiers explaining the real nature of the occupation. It's just important to understand they've been left with basically no other option than to become radicalized.

I agree with everything you wrote here except the last sentence. I can see why they became radicalized. I can even empathize with their reasoning. But with regard to the actual terrorists at some point they chose to murder innocent people, including young children. Surely that’s an evil act of volition for which no circumstances can ever justify.

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

 

[timschochet]

Israel is the real terrorist here. They don't get to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians for decades and act like the victim.

It is sad but what did we expect to happen when diplomacy failed, and the world turned its back on them?

Thread by @BtSIsrael on Thread Reader App

@BtSIsrael: Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable. We could talk about their cruel and criminal actions, or focus on how our Jewish-supremacist govt brought us to this point. But as...…

threadreaderapp.com

If the Palestinians would lay down their arms and refuse to fight Israel anymore, they would co-exist in peace.

If Israel would lay down their arms and refuse to fight the Palestinians anymore, they would driven out of the country by force.

You know it, I know it and the whole world knows it which is why they let Israel be heavy handed.

Name one instance of the Jewish people acting even remotely like what happened this week? Slaughtering 100's of civilians? Women and children? Taking hostages with public executions?

I'm going to stop there and reserve what I really think of your post, but suffice it to say I disagree. Strongly.

My only point is that these events didn't just fall from the sky over the weekend. They were precipitated by decades of ethnic cleansing. We don't hear about IDF spraying skunk spray around palestinian neighborhoods or blockading imports so that civilian populations starve. Or how they are regularly harassed at military checkpoints just trying to lead a regular life. Just complete dehumanization for generations now.

That doesn't make what Hamas did right. That thread i posted is former IDF soldiers explaining the real nature of the occupation. It's just important to understand they've been left with basically no other option than to become radicalized.

I agree with everything you wrote here except the last sentence. I can see why they became radicalized. I can even empathize with their reasoning. But with regard to the actual terrorists at some point they chose to murder innocent people, including young children. Surely that’s an evil act of volition for which no circumstances can ever justify.

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

I disagree. For me, the question then becomes what response from Israel will ultimately lead to strengthening its security? I don’t know what the answer is, but I have a feeling it may very well be a different answer from what is the “appropriate” response.

 

[timschochet]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

There is nobody left alive, either in the IDF or Hamas, who had anything to do with Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel, both of which took place in the 1940s. Hamas didn’t even exist, and both incidents were performed by the Irgun which no longer exists. These incidents and many others perpetrated by both sides of this conflict are important history but not especially relevant to 2023.
If you want to make the argument that Israeli policies under the current Netanyahu government have led to this situation, or even that the events since 1967 have led to the situation, you would do a little better IMO. But even so nothing justifies terrorism.

The Irgun doesn't exist because it was absorbed into the IDF in 1948, which makes it more plausible that their ideologies were also absorbed in some part by early Israeli leadership. This conflict didn't start this weekend. It is a product of decades of aggression

This is true but you need to complete your sentence. It’s a product of decades of aggression AND of decades of radicalization AND of decades of obstinacy and stupidity on all sides AND ultimately it’s an evil act which no history of events can ever justify.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

There is nobody left alive, either in the IDF or Hamas, who had anything to do with Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel, both of which took place in the 1940s. Hamas didn’t even exist, and both incidents were performed by the Irgun which no longer exists. These incidents and many others perpetrated by both sides of this conflict are important history but not especially relevant to 2023.
If you want to make the argument that Israeli policies under the current Netanyahu government have led to this situation, or even that the events since 1967 have led to the situation, you would do a little better IMO. But even so nothing justifies terrorism.

The Irgun doesn't exist because it was absorbed into the IDF in 1948, which makes it more plausible that their ideologies were also absorbed in some part by early Israeli leadership. This conflict didn't start this weekend. It is a product of decades of aggression

This is true but you need to complete your sentence. It’s a product of decades of aggression AND of decades of radicalization AND of decades of obstinacy and stupidity on all sides AND ultimately it’s an evil act which no history of events can ever justify.

I'm not trying to deny the latter. Just seems to be covered ad nauseum. Trying to provide the former equal time

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

 

[tonysmiles]

I do not understand how we can say (except for little children) that teenagers (male and female) and up until elderly Palestinian shares a level of responsibility for these attacks along with HAMAS and they should pay the ultimate price in the violence reaped on them from Israel. My line of thought HAMAS came to power in GAZA in 2007. Palestinians allowed HAMAS to stay in power without revolting or trying to overthrow the regime. Even though it may fail make an attempt to show you do not support these animals. With no attempt to remove them from power Palestinians are as much animals as them.

 

[timschochet]

I do not understand how we can say (except for little children) that teenagers (male and female) and up until elderly Palestinian shares a level of responsibility for these attacks along with HAMAS and they should pay the ultimate price in the violence reaped on them from Israel. My line of thought HAMAS came to power in GAZA in 2007. Palestinians allowed HAMAS to stay in power without revolting or trying to overthrow the regime. Even though it may fail make an attempt to show you do not support these animals. With no attempt to remove them from power Palestinians are as much animals as them.

There are two million Palestinians in Gaza. Are you sure you want to label them all as animals?

 

[General Malaise]

I do not understand how we can say (except for little children) that teenagers (male and female) and up until elderly Palestinian shares a level of responsibility for these attacks along with HAMAS and they should pay the ultimate price in the violence reaped on them from Israel. My line of thought HAMAS came to power in GAZA in 2007. Palestinians allowed HAMAS to stay in power without revolting or trying to overthrow the regime. Even though it may fail make an attempt to show you do not support these animals. With no attempt to remove them from power Palestinians are as much animals as them.

There are two million Palestinians in Gaza. Are you sure you want to label them all as animals?

To be fair, there are millions of species of animals and some of them are kinda nice.

 

[timschochet]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

Agreed and I would hope Israel takes into consideration our response to 9/11. We pounded the crap out of Afghanistan, overthrew the Taliban, spent trillions and lost plenty of American lives and what did we gain out of it? An ignominious departure and the return of the Taliban.

 

[tonysmiles]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

 

[tonysmiles]

I do not understand how we can say (except for little children) that teenagers (male and female) and up until elderly Palestinian shares a level of responsibility for these attacks along with HAMAS and they should pay the ultimate price in the violence reaped on them from Israel. My line of thought HAMAS came to power in GAZA in 2007. Palestinians allowed HAMAS to stay in power without revolting or trying to overthrow the regime. Even though it may fail make an attempt to show you do not support these animals. With no attempt to remove them from power Palestinians are as much animals as them.

There are two million Palestinians in Gaza. Are you sure you want to label them all as animals?

Israel Defense Minister has labeled them that. Also can the truth be told to the people. GAZA became an open air prison to 2 million people when HAMAS was installed into power for the region in 2007. Israel and Egypt always gave Palestine the directive to remove HAMAS from power and remove them from GAZA and your freedoms will be restored. 16 years later of HAMAS rule we have this.

 

[tonysmiles]

I will add one last thing Israel Defense minister and BIBI are not going to listen to the western allies. Tell me what will be left after today's announcement that the Israeli airstrikes and combing each individual neighborhood will take at least 3 months and add no food, water, electricity, fuel, and medical care it is like waiting to die in your own grave. You pi$$ed off Israel and now Gaza after 3 months will be one big pile of rubble and maybe a death toll over 100,000. 2 Million people could not oust a few hundred HAMAS officials. You reap what you sow.

 

[timschochet]

I do not understand how we can say (except for little children) that teenagers (male and female) and up until elderly Palestinian shares a level of responsibility for these attacks along with HAMAS and they should pay the ultimate price in the violence reaped on them from Israel. My line of thought HAMAS came to power in GAZA in 2007. Palestinians allowed HAMAS to stay in power without revolting or trying to overthrow the regime. Even though it may fail make an attempt to show you do not support these animals. With no attempt to remove them from power Palestinians are as much animals as them.

There are two million Palestinians in Gaza. Are you sure you want to label them all as animals?

Israel Defense Minister has labeled them that. Also can the truth be told to the people. GAZA became an open air prison to 2 million people when HAMAS was installed into power for the region in 2007. Israel and Egypt always gave Palestine the directive to remove HAMAS from power and remove them from GAZA and your freedoms will be restored. 16 years later of HAMAS rule we have this.

All right. Any further response on my part is likely to lead to the sort of contentious debate that the moderators don’t want here. But I strongly disagree with your position. We’ll leave it at that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

I admit that I kind of don't know what I'm talking about here, but I doubt we can actually send a Seal team into Gaza right now. This is a very densely populated urban environment, with foreign fighters who blend in with the civilian population intentionally. Hostages are probably being stashed in bunkers and safe rooms that we don't know about, everyone is on high alert, and there's a massive air campaign going on in addition to all the other normal dangers. If I were president, I would not send a special forces team into this environment. My military leaders would need to talk me into it. There is way too much "Black Hawk Down" potential.

Edit: Let's say we send in Seal Team 6, and they are wiped out. What then? Are we just going to take that? This is how we get drawn into a ground campaign.

 

[General Malaise]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

 

[tonysmiles]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

I saw it in my twitter feed. I only watch a local news for my area. I use online sources for national news. Stories like this should never be allowed to air if they do not meet a journalistic integrity standard.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I will add one last thing Israel Defense minister and BIBI are not going to listen to the western allies. Tell me what will be left after today's announcement that the Israel's airstrikes and combing each individual neighborhood will take at least 3 months. You pi$$ed off Israel and now Gaza after 3 months will be one big pile of rubble and maybe a death toll over 100,000. 2 Million people could not oust a few hundred HAMAS officials. You reap what you sow.

This is the same rationale that justified the response to the Warsaw uprising

 

[parasaurolophus]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

I don't think it is debatable that the Israelis were willing to coexist. They have had the ability to wipe the Palestinians off the map and haven't done so.

I use the past tense because perhaps that has now changed.

 

[General Malaise]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

I saw it in my twitter feed. I only watch a local news for my area. I use online sources for national news. Stories like this should never be allowed to air if they do not meet a journalistic integrity standard.

I don't disagree with you, but if I stumble upon a Fox news story, I can't turn away fast enough. It's like when Whitesnake comes on the radio station, I'm quick draw McGraw turning that thing off.

 

[tommyGunZ]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

I saw it in my twitter feed. I only watch a local news for my area. I use online sources for national news. Stories like this should never be allowed to air if they do not meet a journalistic integrity standard.

I don't disagree with you, but if I stumble upon a Fox news story, I can't turn away fast enough. It's like when Whitesnake comes on the radio station, I'm quick draw McGraw turning that thing off.

Bet you weren’t that quick to turn the channel when “Here I go again” came on MtV back in ‘87.

 

[General Malaise]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

I saw it in my twitter feed. I only watch a local news for my area. I use online sources for national news. Stories like this should never be allowed to air if they do not meet a journalistic integrity standard.

I don't disagree with you, but if I stumble upon a Fox news story, I can't turn away fast enough. It's like when Whitesnake comes on the radio station, I'm quick draw McGraw turning that thing off.

Bet you weren’t that quick to turn the channel when “Here I go again” came on MtV back in ‘87.

I said 'radio'.

RIP Tawny

 

[Navin Johnson]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

I don't think it is debatable that the Israelis were willing to coexist. They have had the ability to wipe the Palestinians off the map and haven't done so.

I use the past tense because perhaps that has now changed.

I think they are content with the incremental ethnic cleansing. Committing genocide brings on a whole other set of problems

 

[quick-hands]

Agree with fixing climate change; in addition to the benefits to the environment the geopolitical and long term economic advantages make it a no brainer.

Disagree with the "not our problem" take. If you think we have a refugee problem now, imagine the Middle East and North Africa in 50 years with hotter temps and no oil revenues.

Still not our problem. We're not the world police, and we're also not the world's social worker. I agree with you that the situation you describe is going to come to pass and it will be bad. Europe is right there. Let them deal with it. Until north Africans find a way to walk to the United States, I'm more interested in South America.

I don’t fully disagree with this. Yes we are not the world’s policeman. Our resources are limited and we need to be cautious. All that is true.

But on the other hand our way of life, our economic prosperity, is tied to the flow of world goods. There’s no way around that. We live in a global economy. We are not self sufficient and we will never be again. We depend on international trade. Any disruption to that trade, particularly energy supply, is vital to us and we have to be involved z

we certainly are the world's policemen. have been since 1945. we are just getting out of the business.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I also think it is important to point out that Israel doesn't really kill innocent civilians. Almost all of the Palestinian non combatants are killed during bombing raids or targeted attacks of Hamas where Hamas has placed civilians in harms way.

That makes Hamas responsible for their death, not Israel.

Even international law makes it clear that the presence of innocent civilians(protected persons) does not prohibit military operations.

It is pretty obvious why such an exemption would exist.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think they are content with the incremental ethnic cleansing. Committing genocide brings on a whole other set of problems

From 1990 to 2022 the population of Palestine increased from 1.98 million to 5.04 million people

 

[tommyGunZ]

A Conservative friend shared this short video with me on explaining the problem. https://www.prageru.com/video/the-middle-east-problem

Thoughts?

I would strongly discourage folks from getting their Israeli/Palestinian history (or any history for that matter) from "PragerU".

 

[tonysmiles]

Notable fact Gaza turned into an Open Air prison when Hamas took power.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

I saw it in my twitter feed. I only watch a local news for my area. I use online sources for national news. Stories like this should never be allowed to air if they do not meet a journalistic integrity standard.

I don't disagree with you, but if I stumble upon a Fox news story, I can't turn away fast enough. It's like when Whitesnake comes on the radio station, I'm quick draw McGraw turning that thing off.

Bet you weren’t that quick to turn the channel when “Here I go again” came on MtV back in ‘87.

I almost responded with "Wait," but that was White Lion, not Whitesnake. That would have been quite the Gen X faux pas.

 

[tommyGunZ]

The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response from Israel.

EDIT: I also ask, what is the appropriate response from America, when Hamas has taken American hostages.

I know this sucks, but I think the best thing for the US to do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously we'll provide intelligence and military support to Israel, but the US military should not get involved unless this conflict expands to involve other countries, and even then we need to think carefully.

There are certain things that countries just have to put up with. Until a few days ago, I would have told Israelis that they were just going to have to live with the occasional rocket attack out of Gaza. Yes, those are indefensible and yes they kill people, but it's not worth clearing out the entire Gaza strip just to deal with that. (Obviously things changed on Saturday). Likewise, the US can't flip out every time an American tourist is taken hostage overseas. The current situation is a little extreme, but I think we all need to be adults and realize that none of these hostages are coming home, and proceed accordingly.

I disagree with this there are US Citizens held hostage. We have elite fighting forces that can locate them and rescue them. Our Seals, Delta Force, CIA and other elite units need to be mobilized and used to rescue our citizens. Also why is the media not embracing Iran's admission that they helped coordinate and train Hamas for this mission.

It is very revealing to the eyes of America how the media is falsely disseminating the facts and CNN had a Palestinian National leader and he said to Fareed that only military establishments were attacked and only military personnel were taken hostage. WTF how do you allow this to air on TV when we see the videos and hear the stories of women and children dead. This is a total loss of journalistic integrity. At the 3:45 and on mark you will hear the falsehoods. Another lie when Hamas took power in 2007 was when Palestinians lost there freedom.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn

Why continue to torture yourself watching CNN when 1) you have disdain for it and 2) several posters in here have mentioned reputable news sources to turn to in times like these?

I saw it in my twitter feed. I only watch a local news for my area. I use online sources for national news. Stories like this should never be allowed to air if they do not meet a journalistic integrity standard.

I don't disagree with you, but if I stumble upon a Fox news story, I can't turn away fast enough. It's like when Whitesnake comes on the radio station, I'm quick draw McGraw turning that thing off.

Bet you weren’t that quick to turn the channel when “Here I go again” came on MtV back in ‘87.

I almost responded with "Wait," but that was White Lion, not Whitesnake. That would have been quite the Gen X faux pas.

Even the most hardline Israelis and Palestinians would agree that Tawny's split on the hood of that car is a GOAT moment in human history. Perhaps we can build on this common ground.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Notable fact Gaza turned into an Open Air prison when Hamas took power.

Who needs sewers when you can have rockets?

 

[beer 30]

we certainly are the world's policemen. have been since 1945. we are just getting out of the business.

We did kinda sign up for it, Bretton Woods Conference.

 

[JAA]

Just trying to keep track here ... War in Ukraine, War in Israel, ... Im sure there is some wars going on in Africa. Where else am I missing? South/Central America?

 

[Todem]

It's best not to engage with trolls if you want this thread to stay open.

My ignore list has added a couple new members this morning. Best feature on the board.

I literally just added two to my ignore list right this second as I was catching up.

I refuse to engage with that sort of thing anymore. It’s not worth the energy.

 

[Sand]

It all comes back to the land and what both groups think is their birthright provided by God. It all comes back to that.

Yehweh called dibs a millennia before Muhammed came around.

 

[Sand]

South/Central America?

Narcos have pretty solid control here.

 

[timschochet]

According to the latest reporting, Palestinians in Gaza were begging Egypt to open up the border between Gaza and Egypt. Before the Egyptians could respond, Israeli jets bombed the highway between Gaza and Egypt, effectively cutting off both escape for refugees and blocking all food and water for coming into Gaza.

I’m not condemning what Israel is doing here- but I’m not seeing a good outcome from (a) preventing Palestinians from fleeing and (b) cutting off food and water from 2 million people.

Meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israeli cities and some rockets are getting through. They promise to bomb Tel Aviv next.