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Republican question (1 Viewer)

tommyboy

Footballguy
this question geared towards board Repubs or conservatives in general.

why is immigration such an unsettled topic within the Republican party. Polling suggests a large majority of Americans, regardless of party, are in favor of tighter immigration and much stronger border enforcement.

However, within the Republican party, it seems the tea partiers and overall conservatives are in agreement with Americans on that topic, whereas the leadership and most of the candidates for President at this point are basically open borders types.

I don't get it. Seems like simple way to garner more votes would be to talk tough on immigration. yet none of them do.

 
I'm not going to speak for Republicans, but the "facts" in your OP are not nearly as clear as you make them out to be. Several recent polls, including one by Gallup taken last summer, suggest that a majority of Americans are in favor of providing a path to legal status and citizenship for illegal immigrants. Other polls by Rasmussen in particular dispute this. Critics of both polls think the questioning is biased. The public's view is far from a settled issue.

What IS a settled issue is that Latino Americans, as a bloc, are strongly in favor of granting illegals legal status, strongly opposed to greater border restrictions, and willing to vote primarily based upon this issue. The GOP ignores these voters at their peril.

 
Because economies grow when you have access to large amounts of cheap labor. Business likes available labor. Competition for labor jobs increases incentives to obtain skills to remove yourself from the competitive labor pool, which in turn increases the number of people with the skills to further grow the economy.

The growth of the government's involvement in social programs (all of them, food assistance to home ownership tax breaks) have increased the "value" of keeping out immigrants to those already receiving the benefits as it is not sustainable to both increase social programs and increase population.

I could see a conservative thinking that reducing the social engineering benefits provided by the government along with increasing the labor pool and its attendant positive effects would be an attractive package. Perhaps figuring that the increased education and health costs of this labor would be less than the positive fiscal impact of adding to the labor pool. Europe has tried the opposite for decades with increasing social benefits and limiting immigration. Maybe business oriented conservatives don't want us to be Europe.

 
Also, just to correct your statement that "none of them do"- the only GOP candidates that could be called "pro-open border types" (though that terminology is highly flawed) are Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio. Walker, Cruz, Paul, Christie, Huckabee, and everybody else have all expressed opposition to any kind of immigration reform and are in favor of tighter border restrictions.

 
I'm not going to speak for Republicans, but the "facts" in your OP are not nearly as clear as you make them out to be. Several recent polls, including one by Gallup taken last summer, suggest that a majority of Americans are in favor of providing a path to legal status and citizenship for illegal immigrants. Other polls by Rasmussen in particular dispute this. Critics of both polls think the questioning is biased. The public's view is far from a settled issue.

What IS a settled issue is that Latino Americans, as a bloc, are strongly in favor of granting illegals legal status, strongly opposed to greater border restrictions, and willing to vote primarily based upon this issue. The GOP ignores these voters at their peril.
So overall, the polling is unsettled but politicians should pander to a particular voting bloc because they support your views on an issue. Brilliant logic as always.

 
Old guard republicans know they need the votes or face consistent defeat.

Tea partiers will fall on their sword of principle.

 
Old guard republicans know they need the votes or face consistent defeat.

Tea partiers will fall on their sword of principle.
The frustrating thing (to me anyway -- I forget where you come down on this one) is that there used to be lots of pro-immigration Republicans as recently as the W administration. Then they all just up and vanished.

 
IThe Republican Party doesn't truly want to address immigration despite their base polling strong on that issue. That's because the GOP is not responsive to their base, and is instead completely beholden to big business and chambers of commerce that fund them. Since those business interests like the cheap labor immigration provides, Republican politicians will continue to pay lip service to their base's immigration concerns while doing absolutely nothing on that issue.

 
I think the 'open borders' thing is normally thrown out as an accusation from someone who wants to do nothing but build a fence and deport towards anyone who tries to approach the problem with more of an open mind of solutions and/or the political ramifications.

First, the problem needs more of a solution than build fences, more border patrol, more interior enforcement, etc. I have to wonder if some of those who oppose anything else have a tinge of xenophobia running through their veins but I think others just simply have not really thought through the problem. We need immigrants. We need a secure border. We can better secure the border versus drugs, terror, etc if we provide better avenues to deal with the simple migrant looking for income and a better life. What does that look like? I am not 100% sure but I think a mix of a lot of the stuff talked about that leads to the 'open borders' nonsense.

Second, demographics are changing. The latino population are in many ways ripe for the GOP to take in as there is alot of what the GOP stands for within the culture. The biggest problem is a sense that the GOP is against latinos. This perception is almost exclusively due to the immigrant issue. A position of build the fences and hire more border patrol agents alientes this demographic. If the GOP can win the latino vote then it is a game changer politically. If they don't eventually the GOP will certainly be the permament minority party.

 
It's a complicated issue, both from the standpoint of doing what's right, and from the standpoint of doing what will get you elected.

From the standpoint of doing what's right, I think nearly everyone in the U.S. agrees that legal immigration is preferable to illegal immigration. If we're going to have a certain number of immigrants per year, we maximize the ratio of legal immigrants to illegal immigrants by enforcing laws against illegal immigration. But as with all laws, there's a cost-benefit analysis that is relevant. It is probably stupid to spend an extra $500,000 per extra would-be-illegal-immigrant that we keep out, for example. I don't know what the right amount to spend is, but there's obviously such a thing as spending too much, and it's possible that we're already spending more than is sensible at the margin. This would be a difficult thing to figure out, hence my statement that it's complicated. Also, there is a separate question of what to do with the illegal immigrants who are already here. The costs and benefits are different there, and also complicated.

From the standpoint of doing what will get you elected, you've got different forces pulling in different directions. Blue-collar workers, many of whom vote Republican, want to reduce immigration in general, and especially illegal immigration, because the cheap influx of labor is hard to compete with. On the other hand, certain big businesses, which also happen to be influential among Republicans, like cheap labor. And finally, it's very difficult to win a national election if you get slaughtered by the Hispanic vote.

So it's not all that hard to understand why different Republican politicians would have different positions on the issue.

 
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It's a complicated issue, both from the standpoint of doing what's right, and from the standpoint of doing what will get you elected.

From the standpoint of doing what's right, I think nearly everyone in the U.S. agrees that legal immigration is preferable to illegal immigration. If we're going to have a certain number of immigrants per year, we maximize the ratio of legal immigrants to illegal immigrants by enforcing laws against illegal immigration. But as with all laws, there's a cost-benefit analysis that is relevant. It is probably stupid to spend an extra $500,000 per extra would-be-illegal-immigrant that we keep out, for example. I don't know what the right amount to spend is, but there's obviously such a thing as spending too much, and it's possible that we're already spending more than is sensible at the margin. This would be a difficult thing to figure out, hence my statement that it's complicated. Also, there is a separate question of what to do with the illegal immigrants who are already here. The costs and benefits are different there, and also complicated.

From the standpoint of doing what will get you elected, you've got different forces pulling in different directions. Blue-collar workers, many of whom vote Republican, want to reduce immigration in general, and especially illegal immigration, because the cheap influx of labor is hard to compete with. On the other hand, certain big businesses, which also happen to be influential among Republicans, like cheap labor. And finally, it's very difficult to win a national election if you get slaughtered by the Hispanic vote.

So it's not all that hard to understand why different Republican politicians would have different positions on the issue.
Few allow this to get in the way.

 
Maybe we should worry less about the illegal Immigrants from Mexico who want to work and more about the legal immigrants we let waltz into our country from the terrorist prone countries of the Middle East who want to setup terror networks.

 
I'm not going to speak for Republicans, but the "facts" in your OP are not nearly as clear as you make them out to be. Several recent polls, including one by Gallup taken last summer, suggest that a majority of Americans are in favor of providing a path to legal status and citizenship for illegal immigrants. Other polls by Rasmussen in particular dispute this. Critics of both polls think the questioning is biased. The public's view is far from a settled issue.

What IS a settled issue is that Latino Americans, as a bloc, are strongly in favor of granting illegals legal status, strongly opposed to greater border restrictions, and willing to vote primarily based upon this issue. The GOP ignores these voters at their peril.
:goodposting:

I am a Republican, but moderate on most social issues (and against party group think). Would probably vote moderate if/when the right candidate comes along to fit that role. My big thing that always leads me to not vote for a Democrat is tax policy and entitlement platforms.

Anyways, I am all for streamlining the path to immigration, because I personally want immigrants that want to become citizens to be citizens - but also join the tax rolls once they're here. Illegal immigrants working off the tax rolls under the table is bad in my opinion/B.S. Pay to play (via jobs with a W2 for taxes) is all good IMO, and the Tea Partiers or conservatives who are against that line of thinking are really just discriminating against immigrants who want to become U.S. Citizens at that point. How quickly we all forget that our ancestors were all immigrants at one time or another. Come one come all, but get to work and pay into the system via your tax bills.

 
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And of course nobody in this discussion wants to mention that, in all of the anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric, there is always a certain amount of racism and bigotry involved. It's always present, and Latinos know it.

 
Tim, there is a good reason why nobody wants to debate the point you brought up. Instead of logically discussing legitimate pros and cons of an issue, you want to cast evil motivations on those who disagree with you. I don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out to you before it sinks in. Even with caveats, your debate tactics suck ### and piss people off I wish you would come to understand how ####### annoying it is, and I like you.

 
Tim, there is a good reason why nobody wants to debate the point you brought up. Instead of logically discussing legitimate pros and cons of an issue, you want to cast evil motivations on those who disagree with you. I don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out to you before it sinks in. Even with caveats, your debate tactics suck ### and piss people off I wish you would come to understand how ####### annoying it is, and I like you.
But I'm not doing that. I certainly don't claim that everyone who is anti-illegal immigrant is a bigot, and I am not accusing anyone here of that. But at the same time, I don't think we should hide the fact that it's an underlying issue and that Latino Americans in particular believe it is the biggest part (based on polling). That's not something that should be ignored, IMO.

 
Tim, when you say "in all of the anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric, there is always a certain amount of racism and bigotry involved. ". ....you absolutely are over generalizing and projecting evil motives. I know you tried to caveat it a bit, but the statement still sucked. Just stop trying to project motivations on to millions of people. You do not know what is in their hearts and minds. You really don't.

 
Tim, there is a good reason why nobody wants to debate the point you brought up. Instead of logically discussing legitimate pros and cons of an issue, you want to cast evil motivations on those who disagree with you. I don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out to you before it sinks in. Even with caveats, your debate tactics suck ### and piss people off I wish you would come to understand how ####### annoying it is, and I like you.
I don't think you can completely discount the role that xenophobia plays in it, at least for a certain element of the population. To think that there isn't an element of that present for a certain percentage of voters (especially in GOP primaries) would be naive. I'm not saying the candidates necessarily feel that way -- they just need to get votes so they pander like all politicians do.

Fundamentally, you've framed the issue improperly at the outset. What does "tighter immigration" and "stronger border enforcement" mean, for example? And why do you say it's clear what "a large majority of Americans" want with respect to immigration, when factually there is no clear consensus on what even a plurality of Americans want?

And what about allowing current illegal immigrants a pathway towards citizenship? Isn't that the real debate anyway?

Then add the fact that the Chamber of Commerce and other pro-business groups pretty aggressively backed GOP opponents of "Tea Party" candidates in primaries the last election cycle, in large part due to their hard-line stance on immigration. Dovetailing back to your assumption about polling, does that mean the Chamber is out of touch with what "a large majority of Americans" want?

IMO the GOP is facing the daunting problem the Democrats faced in the 80's -- trying to keep too many diverse groups under one tent. They have to go way conservative on this issue (and others) to win in the primaries, then come back and try to convince the general electorate that they aren't way conservative. Fundamentalists and libertarians aren't really all that compatible; blue collar workers and business interests aren't all that compatible; Log Cabin Republicans and fundamentalists aren't really compatible.

And then you have the reality that, xenophobia or not, the GOP has shown a remarkable inability to attract minority voters in general elections.

What does the GOP really want on this issue? I'll tell you -- silence. They would dearly love to have immigration not be an issue in the general election in the hopes that it won't motivate Latin voters to go to the polls. If you can't get them to join you, try to figure out how to keep from motivating them to come out and vote at all.

It's the same thing they want on gay marriage. There's no group in the country more hopeful that the Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage than the GOP presidential hopefuls, not even gay couples who want to marry. It would take that issue off the front burner, because they can't win that one either.

 
Tim, when you say "in all of the anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric, there is always a certain amount of racism and bigotry involved. ". ....you absolutely are over generalizing and projecting evil motives. I know you tried to caveat it a bit, but the statement still sucked. Just stop trying to project motivations on to millions of people. You do not know what is in their hearts and minds. You really don't.
Probably racism amiright? With all due respect, naturally.

 
People who are so wound up about immigration that they'd vote on the issue are never, ever going to vote for a Democrat under the current alignments.

So there's approximately zero votes available to the Republicans for hardlining the issue. Or at the very least a hell of a lot fewer votes available than they'll lose.

Most of the party would disavow it completely except that the people who are so would up about immigration that they'd vote on the issue are very likely to try and primary a centrist Republican out of office.

Pretty much lose-lose for Republicans who aren't a little bug-eyed on the issue.

 
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I am not discounting Tim has some legitimate point to some extent to some people. But to say all and always is ridiculous. Instead of denial, Tim needs to reflect on this. He will become a much better poster.

 
"I know 5 Republicans that are racists, therefore the majority of Republicans are racists". That's an over generalization.

Not seeing how what Tim said is an over generalization.

 
"I know 5 Republicans that are racists, therefore the majority of Republicans are racists". That's an over generalization.

Not seeing how what Tim said is an over generalization.
Tim did tone his statement down a bit. But you can not say All and Always when discussing motivations of entire populations of people. It is not Tim's worst post, but it does illustrate two of Tim's worst habits which make people hate his posts.
 
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"I know 5 Republicans that are racists, therefore the majority of Republicans are racists". That's an over generalization.

Not seeing how what Tim said is an over generalization.
Tim did tone his statement down a bit. But you can not say All and Always when discussing motivations of entire populations of people. It is not Tim's worst post, but it does illustrate two of Tim's worst habits which make people hate his posts.
Are you attributing motivations to entire populations of people?

 
There are racists out there and they are motivated by that. There are xenophobes out there (xenophobia is not one in the same with racism) and they are motivated by that. There are others who simply believe in law and order. There are some who just believe in fairness (most immigrants that I know of outside of Mexico, Central and South America will bring this up- why did they have to do everything legally and others don't). There are many motivations. Let's be adults and realize that. 'Nuff said?

 
"I know 5 Republicans that are racists, therefore the majority of Republicans are racists". That's an over generalization.

Not seeing how what Tim said is an over generalization.
Tim did tone his statement down a bit. But you can not say All and Always when discussing motivations of entire populations of people. It is not Tim's worst post, but it does illustrate two of Tim's worst habits which make people hate his posts.
Are you attributing motivations to entire populations of people?
:lol: That makes zero sense.

 
There are racists out there and they are motivated by that. There are xenophobes out there (xenophobia is not one in the same with racism) and they are motivated by that. There are others who simply believe in law and order. There are some who just believe in fairness (most immigrants that I know of outside of Mexico, Central and South America will bring this up- why did they have to do everything legally and others don't). There are many motivations. Let's be adults and realize that. 'Nuff said?
My whole point was directed at Tim and to help him try to realize why so many people hate his posting. Tim is the absolute king of over generalizing, throwing out strawmen, and belittling people's opinions. But he is in denial and he has enablers, so it is a waste of breath.

 
"I know 5 Republicans that are racists, therefore the majority of Republicans are racists". That's an over generalization.

Not seeing how what Tim said is an over generalization.
Tim did tone his statement down a bit. But you can not say All and Always when discussing motivations of entire populations of people. It is not Tim's worst post, but it does illustrate two of Tim's worst habits which make people hate his posts.
Are you attributing motivations to entire populations of people?
:lol: That makes zero sense.
I just find irony in the fact that you are bashing on Tim because he is make generalized statements about "motivation of entire populations of people" and then you provide a generalized statement about the motivations of "people" yourself.

 
And of course nobody in this discussion wants to mention that, in all of the anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric, there is always a certain amount of racism and bigotry involved. It's always present, and Latinos know it.
Tim, there is a good reason why nobody wants to debate the point you brought up. Instead of logically discussing legitimate pros and cons of an issue, you want to cast evil motivations on those who disagree with you. I don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out to you before it sinks in. Even with caveats, your debate tactics suck ### and piss people off I wish you would come to understand how ####### annoying it is, and I like you.
I know I am always reluctant to debate immigration because of how politically incorrect it is to oppose it. But somebody better start debating it. We are approaching all-time highs in immigration - not just in the past 20 years but in the history of the country. The latest Census report projects that in 8 short years the percentage of immigrants in this country will reach 14.8% and eclipse the previous record mark of 14.7% in 1910. Look at the graph. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3052500/Census-research-shows-immigrants-account-82-cent-population-growth-2060.htmlI'm all for immigration. Keeps the economy strong and the culture vibrant. But these numbers are way too high.

 
There are racists out there and they are motivated by that. There are xenophobes out there (xenophobia is not one in the same with racism) and they are motivated by that. There are others who simply believe in law and order. There are some who just believe in fairness (most immigrants that I know of outside of Mexico, Central and South America will bring this up- why did they have to do everything legally and others don't). There are many motivations. Let's be adults and realize that. 'Nuff said?
My whole point was directed at Tim and to help him try to realize why so many people hate his posting. Tim is the absolute king of over generalizing, throwing out strawmen, and belittling people's opinions. But he is in denial and he has enablers, so it is a waste of breath.
Agreed on your point of Tim having a tendancy to use wide brush strokes when painting pictures.

Of course, those from a certain point of view will jump eagerly at the chance to yell "RACIST!" if you simply do not agree. It is all very tiring.

 
I need to correct something I wrote here because it didn't come out right and jon is partially correct in his criticism of me. It was wrong of me to write that in every argument there was always a certain amount of bigotry/ I don't really believe that. The real point I was trying to get at was that many if not most Latino Americans do believe it, and aren't convinced by arguments otherwise. And quite often, though not always, they have a good point IMO.

 
My wild guess is that R want the Hispanic vote and they see it as conversation ended amongst that group. Rubio and Cruz are Hispanic so wouldnt want to alienate Hispanic voters. In return those competing with them wouldn't want to open that conversation.

 
General Tso said:
And of course nobody in this discussion wants to mention that, in all of the anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric, there is always a certain amount of racism and bigotry involved. It's always present, and Latinos know it.
Tim, there is a good reason why nobody wants to debate the point you brought up. Instead of logically discussing legitimate pros and cons of an issue, you want to cast evil motivations on those who disagree with you. I don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out to you before it sinks in. Even with caveats, your debate tactics suck ### and piss people off I wish you would come to understand how ####### annoying it is, and I like you.
I know I am always reluctant to debate immigration because of how politically incorrect it is to oppose it. But somebody better start debating it. We are approaching all-time highs in immigration - not just in the past 20 years but in the history of the country. The latest Census report projects that in 8 short years the percentage of immigrants in this country will reach 14.8% and eclipse the previous record mark of 14.7% in 1910. Look at the graph. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3052500/Census-research-shows-immigrants-account-82-cent-population-growth-2060.htmlI'm all for immigration. Keeps the economy strong and the culture vibrant. But these numbers are way too high.
The problem with those numbers is that the "source" for that material isn't exactly the Census. The census figures are for foreign-born residents, which includes naturalized citizens. The Center for Immigration Studies, a dubious source at best, intentionally conflates "foreign born" with "immigrant" because it helps the cause. Generally, naturalized citizens aren't viewed as "immigrants". Certainly not by DHS, which defines "immigrant" as "Permanent Resident Alien". The INA defines immigrant as any alien residing in the US (with the exception of some very specific "classifications" of aliens). Pretty much no one who doesn't have an agenda views naturalized citizens as "immigrants".

Non-citizen populations have been pretty static for some time, at least from 1995-2012, the last stretch for which the census has data readily available, generally between ~6.5% and ~7.5%.

http://www.census.gov/population/foreign/data/cps.html

 
Old guard republicans know they need the votes or face consistent defeat.

Tea partiers will fall on their sword of principle.
The frustrating thing (to me anyway -- I forget where you come down on this one) is that there used to be lots of pro-immigration Republicans as recently as the W administration. Then they all just up and vanished.
Maybe they've come to terms with a ballooning national debt and seemingly fewer jobs, that you can't have a wide-open immigration policy with a wide-open welfare state.

 
this question geared towards board Repubs or conservatives in general.

why is immigration such an unsettled topic within the Republican party. Polling suggests a large majority of Americans, regardless of party, are in favor of tighter immigration and much stronger border enforcement.

However, within the Republican party, it seems the tea partiers and overall conservatives are in agreement with Americans on that topic, whereas the leadership and most of the candidates for President at this point are basically open borders types.

I don't get it. Seems like simple way to garner more votes would be to talk tough on immigration. yet none of them do.
You know how dems are always saying republicans are for the rich? A clock is always right twice a day.

Btw I don't think walker,Cruz,or Paul is open borders.

If you are talking about" front runners " Bush/Rubio then true.

I for one do not believe either one of those two will win the republican nomination. Bush is bush and Rubio went to the senate on the back of the tea party and pulled a gang of 8 suicide. No tea party person will ever cast another vote for him.

 
There is a big difference between immigration and illegal immigration...
True. How many Americans are there now?Is it true that there was 51,000,000 immigrants into America the last eight years making up 82% of the population growth?

Something is wrong.

The melting pot has turned into a melted pot.

 
this question geared towards board Repubs or conservatives in general.

why is immigration such an unsettled topic within the Republican party. Polling suggests a large majority of Americans, regardless of party, are in favor of tighter immigration and much stronger border enforcement.

However, within the Republican party, it seems the tea partiers and overall conservatives are in agreement with Americans on that topic, whereas the leadership and most of the candidates for President at this point are basically open borders types.

I don't get it. Seems like simple way to garner more votes would be to talk tough on immigration. yet none of them do.
You know how dems are always saying republicans are for the rich? A clock is always right twice a day.

Btw I don't think walker,Cruz,or Paul is open borders.

If you are talking about" front runners " Bush/Rubio then true.

I for one do not believe either one of those two will win the republican nomination. Bush is bush and Rubio went to the senate on the back of the tea party and pulled a gang of 8 suicide. No tea party person will ever cast another vote for him.
I don't disagree with you here.

But in order for Bush or Rubio (or Christie) to lose, the base has to unite behind one candidate. And they have to do it soon. What allowed McCain and Romney to triumph the last 2 times around was that the base couldn't decide between the others until it was too late. And they have a similar problem right now: Walker, Cruz, Huckabee, Perry, Carson, Santorum- all competing for the same vote. I think Walker's got the best shot to unite them. But they can't wait very long. By next January, there needs to be ONE base candidate. Otherwise it will be Jeb or Marco or Chris.

 
I am not discounting Tim has some legitimate point to some extent to some people. But to say all and always is ridiculous. Instead of denial, Tim needs to reflect on this. He will become a much better poster.
He will never change his ways and why is he consistently out of his thread?

 
Here is a thoughtful article on this subject- the first paragraph completely contradicts tommyboy's assumptions in the OP. However, I disagree with one vital point:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/04/23/republicans-have-a-serious-immigration-challenge/

The difference in opinion between Republican elites and the base of their party on the topic of immigration is very real, but that difference is even more politically significant when you compare it to the views of the country at large. You can see it in all sorts of poll data. The Gallup numbers on this point from a few months ago illustrate it clearly. Gallup found that 39% of Americans want to see levels of immigration (legal and illegal) decrease, while 54% want the same or higher levels of immigration (33% same, 7% higher, 14% dissatisfied but want same which I assume is the throw your hands in the air portion). That 39% figure is a historic low on the question, compared to levels that were higher than 50% during the George W. Bush presidency.

But even if the public at large is less in favor of lower immigration levels, the Republican Party has much stronger views on the subject, and this creates a natural tension between what potential candidates might say to win a GOP primary and what they may do to win over Independents in a general election. Gallup reports:

“More than four out of every five self-identified Republicans say they are dissatisfied with the current level of immigration (84%), a figure that towers above the number of independents (54%) or Democrats (44%) who feel similarly. Moreover, the number of GOP affiliates saying they are dissatisfied on this issue swelled by 19 percentage points compared with 2014.”
Consider this as you read the unsurprising news that Marco Rubio is touting his controversial immigration record to donors.

“Even as Rubio labors to publicly distance himself from the legislation so loathed by conservative primary voters, he and his aides have privately highlighted this line in his resume when soliciting support from the deep-pocketed donors in the party’s more moderate business wing.”
Well, of course that makes sense politically – you won’t exactly find rah-rah support for what Rubio tried to do on immigration in 91% white Iowa. Instead, you’ll find it for comments like those from Scott Walker. But to be a candidate that unites both that moderate/business wing and the base of the party as a nominee, there’s a need to speak to both sides, and to achieve a level of trust on the immigration issue that is lacking.

The immigration issue provides an easy opportunity for some early populist chest-beating in the presidential stakes. But when it comes time to win a general election, too much of that talk would prove an anchor for any candidate wanting to reach beyond the typical Republican lines to win Independent and Hispanic voters. That’s why talk of lowering legal immigration levels out of concerns for the American working man are so toxic, and interpreted as code words and dog whistles by Hispanics.

What’s more, it’s a completely pointless discussion to have given the current inability of the government to do anything about levels of illegal immigration. I think the data is clear: Low-wage migrant workers temporarily depress wages in their specific sector, but raise them in the long term through the aggregate effects of economic growth. But that debate is beside the point: Markets are already dictating where people move despite the laws. Arguing about legal immigration levels is like debating whether you should change the oil at 15,000 or 30,000 miles in a car that is currently on fire.

The safest Republican position on immigration heading into the general campaign is one that highlights the weaknesses of Democrats on the issue as opposed to catering too much to either the base or the business community. Don’t be Steve King, and don’t be the Gang of Eight. Instead, make the case for steps to secure the border, based on our need for health, safety, and security, as a necessary prerequisite for any reforms; and outline a path to legal status – not citizenship – for those who are already here. This is, as it happens, pretty much what I understand Marco Rubio’s position to be now, where he ended up after getting burned by going too far in one direction. But all the candidates face a challenge here: they will need to convince voters they aren’t just telling donors one thing while saying something else on the stump. This could prove difficult, particularly if it’s exactly what they’re doing.

 
I am not discounting Tim has some legitimate point to some extent to some people. But to say all and always is ridiculous. Instead of denial, Tim needs to reflect on this. He will become a much better poster.
He will never change his ways and why is he consistently out of his thread?
Don't take the stinky bait, Tim.
 
Instead, make the case for steps to secure the border, based on our need for health, safety, and security, as a necessary prerequisite for any reforms; and outline a path to legal status – not citizenship – for those who are already here.

This is the part I disagree with. It's an argument that Rich Conway has made for years in this forum, and it's an argument that Marco Rubio is making now. But it's not going to work. Like civil unions for gay couples, legal status without citizenship is not going to be accepted by either side. But what's important for this discussion is that the Republican base will never accept it, because they still perceive this to be amnesty.

There really is no acceptable middle ground on this question.

 
this question geared towards board Repubs or conservatives in general.

why is immigration such an unsettled topic within the Republican party. Polling suggests a large majority of Americans, regardless of party, are in favor of tighter immigration and much stronger border enforcement.

However, within the Republican party, it seems the tea partiers and overall conservatives are in agreement with Americans on that topic, whereas the leadership and most of the candidates for President at this point are basically open borders types.

I don't get it. Seems like simple way to garner more votes would be to talk tough on immigration. yet none of them do.
You know how dems are always saying republicans are for the rich? A clock is always right twice a day.

Btw I don't think walker,Cruz,or Paul is open borders.

If you are talking about" front runners " Bush/Rubio then true.

I for one do not believe either one of those two will win the republican nomination. Bush is bush and Rubio went to the senate on the back of the tea party and pulled a gang of 8 suicide. No tea party person will ever cast another vote for him.
I don't disagree with you here.

But in order for Bush or Rubio (or Christie) to lose, the base has to unite behind one candidate. And they have to do it soon. What allowed McCain and Romney to triumph the last 2 times around was that the base couldn't decide between the others until it was too late. And they have a similar problem right now: Walker, Cruz, Huckabee, Perry, Carson, Santorum- all competing for the same vote. I think Walker's got the best shot to unite them. But they can't wait very long. By next January, there needs to be ONE base candidate. Otherwise it will be Jeb or Marco or Chris.
IMO Walker can't win the general election. I don't think he's got the chops anyway, but even if he does he'll enable the Democrats to energize their base to spend money and to come out and vote. If that happens, there just isn't a pathway for the GOP to get the electoral votes they need.

 
this question geared towards board Repubs or conservatives in general.

why is immigration such an unsettled topic within the Republican party. Polling suggests a large majority of Americans, regardless of party, are in favor of tighter immigration and much stronger border enforcement.

However, within the Republican party, it seems the tea partiers and overall conservatives are in agreement with Americans on that topic, whereas the leadership and most of the candidates for President at this point are basically open borders types.

I don't get it. Seems like simple way to garner more votes would be to talk tough on immigration. yet none of them do.
You know how dems are always saying republicans are for the rich? A clock is always right twice a day.

Btw I don't think walker,Cruz,or Paul is open borders.

If you are talking about" front runners " Bush/Rubio then true.

I for one do not believe either one of those two will win the republican nomination. Bush is bush and Rubio went to the senate on the back of the tea party and pulled a gang of 8 suicide. No tea party person will ever cast another vote for him.
I don't disagree with you here.

But in order for Bush or Rubio (or Christie) to lose, the base has to unite behind one candidate. And they have to do it soon. What allowed McCain and Romney to triumph the last 2 times around was that the base couldn't decide between the others until it was too late. And they have a similar problem right now: Walker, Cruz, Huckabee, Perry, Carson, Santorum- all competing for the same vote. I think Walker's got the best shot to unite them. But they can't wait very long. By next January, there needs to be ONE base candidate. Otherwise it will be Jeb or Marco or Chris.
IMO Walker can't win the general election. I don't think he's got the chops anyway, but even if he does he'll enable the Democrats to energize their base to spend money and to come out and vote. If that happens, there just isn't a pathway for the GOP to get the electoral votes they need.
I agree with this too. But my analysis is that at this time, in this election, the Republican base care more about defeating the GOP establishment than they do about winning the general election. That's why I wrote this was like 1964. The conservatives have had it with what they consider to be RINOs: the Bushes, Romney, McCain, Boehner, McConnell. Always giving in to Obama and the Dems. Always more interested in the Chamber of Commerce. Also making promises to social conservatives, and then breaking them. They're sick of it, and they hate these people more than they hate the Democrats. So I think they will push Walker through and the general election be damned.

 
I agree with this too. But my analysis is that at this time, in this election, the Republican base care more about defeating the GOP establishment than they do about winning the general election. That's why I wrote this was like 1964. The conservatives have had it with what they consider to be RINOs: the Bushes, Romney, McCain, Boehner, McConnell. Always giving in to Obama and the Dems. Always more interested in the Chamber of Commerce. Also making promises to social conservatives, and then breaking them. They're sick of it, and they hate these people more than they hate the Democrats. So I think they will push Walker through and the general election be damned.
What exactly is this "analysis" based on?

 

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