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Dynasty Rankings (7 Viewers)

thriftyrocker said:
You not counting the rushing yards? He's 7th. There's 4 or 5 other QBs less than 10 points behind him, including Cassel, Schaub, and Eli.

What's not to like: the Bucs passed a lot in RZ/GL opportunities and he still only ended up with 23 TDs. Benn is not a sure thing, Winslow is a very old 27, and there is nothing behind them. The 6 INTs could be an anomaly. The rushing yards might not be maintainable year-to-year.

It's a lot easier for me to see this year as a high water mark for Freeman than Ryan. Turner breaks down a little more, they draft a guy like Blackmon or Floyd, and Ryan will put up even better stats.
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Not according to FBG, who does take rushing stats into account. If you go PPG, you add Ben, Romo, Orton, Cassel, Garrard, and I think Fitzpatrick to the list as well.

According to FBG:

1 QB Vick, Michael PHI 11 208 329 2755 20 5 92 613 8 1 350.5

2 QB Rodgers, Aaron GB 14 293 447 3693 27 10 57 335 4 1 340.2

3 QB Rivers, Philip SD 15 336 504 4397 30 12 28 51 0 4 332.9

4 QB Manning, Peyton IND 15 423 639 4436 31 17 18 18 0 1 330.6

5 QB Brees, Drew NO 15 426 620 4424 32 21 18 -3 0 1 328.6

6 QB Brady, Tom NE 15 314 476 3701 34 4 31 30 1 1 326.0

7 QB Manning, Eli NYG 15 322 510 3759 30 24 28 59 0 5 289.9

8 QB Schaub, Matt HOU 15 347 552 4116 23 12 20 27 0 3 288.5

9 QB Freeman, Josh TB 15 270 448 3196 23 6 64 353 0 2 281.1 10 QB Flacco, Joe BAL 15 292 470 3497 25 9 40 83 1 4 280.2

11 QB Ryan, Matt ATL 15 335 539 3469 26 9 44 115 0 3 279.9

12 QB Garrard, David JAX 14 236 366 2734 23 15 67 270 5 4 270.7

13 QB Palmer, Carson CIN 15 330 541 3665 25 18 30 47 0 2 269.9

14 QB Cassel, Matt KC 14 251 417 3001 27 5 33 125 0 1 265.6

15 QB Orton, Kyle DEN 13 293 498 3652 20 9 22 98 0 4 263.

 
valhallan said:
Concept Coop said:
Schaub is the 12th QB in NFL HISTORY to have back-to-back 4,000 yard seasons. AJ's TDs were down this year, I think because of injury. But he is one of the best scoring WRs in the NFL. Please help me understand why Schaub will continue to finish around 7-12. What about Freeman suggests that he will score higher than Schaub? I think people see the number 22 and fall in love. Not all 2nd year QBs who show promise improve on their numbers much after that. It wasn't long ago that Matt Ryan was talked about as a top 5 dynasty QB.
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I don't see anything special when I watch Schaub or Ryan, but I do when I watch Freeman. You can focus on stats if you want - dynasty needs people with varying philosophies. I prefer focusing on what I see, which is why I and guys like F&L had Foster on our rosters before this season. I've seen this argument hashed out a million times in this thread and won't be a part of it. Let's agree to disagree.
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What is special about him? I am not asking to be an antagonist - honest question. Maybe you can point out what I should be looking for next time I watch him play.
 
If someone had traded Schaub for Bradford before the season, he would have been mocked. But wouldn't we all rather have Bradford at this point?
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wait, is this really consensus now? seems absurd to me. schaub will be 30 next year but his numbers should bounce back with a healthy andre and owen. all bradford is pass a ton at a less than mediocre rate as a rookie. hes got a long way to go to get to schaubs level and doesnt have near the weapons.
 
Concept Coop said:
valhallan said:
Concept Coop said:
Schaub is the 12th QB in NFL HISTORY to have back-to-back 4,000 yard seasons. AJ's TDs were down this year, I think because of injury. But he is one of the best scoring WRs in the NFL. Please help me understand why Schaub will continue to finish around 7-12. What about Freeman suggests that he will score higher than Schaub? I think people see the number 22 and fall in love. Not all 2nd year QBs who show promise improve on their numbers much after that. It wasn't long ago that Matt Ryan was talked about as a top 5 dynasty QB.
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I don't see anything special when I watch Schaub or Ryan, but I do when I watch Freeman. You can focus on stats if you want - dynasty needs people with varying philosophies. I prefer focusing on what I see, which is why I and guys like F&L had Foster on our rosters before this season. I've seen this argument hashed out a million times in this thread and won't be a part of it. Let's agree to disagree.
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What is special about him? I am not asking to be an antagonist - honest question. Maybe you can point out what I should be looking for next time I watch him play.
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He has eyes in the back of his head much like Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, Romo. I firmly believe that's something you either have or you don't and you can't learn it. As soon as I see a guy has that ability, my dynasty alarm starts blaring. Aside from that, he goes through all of his reads even when he's on the run. He's accurate. He's cool under pressure. He gets the pass out quick when needed. He rises to the occasion instead of shrinking from it. Basically everything I would want in an NFL QB, and typically great NFL QBs become great fantasy QBs. I won't be shocked if he never finishes top 5, but unlike some others here I won't be shocked if he does. Guess that's the key difference.
 
cvnpoka said:
If someone had traded Schaub for Bradford before the season, he would have been mocked. But wouldn't we all rather have Bradford at this point?
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wait, is this really consensus now? seems absurd to me. schaub will be 30 next year but his numbers should bounce back with a healthy andre and owen. all bradford is pass a ton at a less than mediocre rate as a rookie. hes got a long way to go to get to schaubs level and doesnt have near the weapons.
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May not be the consensus. I didn't realize how much people seem to be valuing Schaub. Perhaps a better guy for that trade would have been Ryan? As for Bradford, I think you may need to brush up on history if you think his rookie stats are mediocre. And you're right - he has no weapons, which makes his performance even more remarkable. Give him the Texans skill players and he would have trounced Schaub's numbers. You'll have to watch film on Bradford to believe me, though.
 
im not watching film on bradford, i know nothing about qb mechanics and studying.

i do know that his completion percentage and y/c and any/a stats are poor in relation to starting qbs in the leauge. yes, i know they are fine for a rookie, zomg compare to peyton manning, but its not near a certainty that hes destined to make the large leap to get to schaubs level. and hes a huge dog to achieve it next season at least.

also, what about colt mccoy? his per pass metrics were damn good and i think he faced stiffer competition, pitt and balt.

 
cvnpoka said:
im not watching film on bradford, i know nothing about qb mechanics and studying. i do know that his completion percentage and y/c and any/a stats are poor in relation to starting qbs in the leauge. yes, i know they are fine for a rookie, zomg compare to peyton manning, but its not near a certainty that hes destined to make the large leap to get to schaubs level. and hes a huge dog to achieve it next season at least. also, what about colt mccoy? his per pass metrics were damn good and i think he faced stiffer competition, pitt and balt.
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Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks. I've never before watched a rookie (I wasn't paying attention for Manning's rookie year) and immediately thought "this guy has it" before. He knows his reads. He has a lightning quick release. He's got the arm to hit anywhere on the field, and the accuracy to drop the ball in a shoe box. In dynasty, I would trade pretty much any QB to get my hands on Bradford (unless it crippled my shot at a championship in the current year, obviously).
 
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
 
cvnpoka said:
im not watching film on bradford, i know nothing about qb mechanics and studying. i do know that his completion percentage and y/c and any/a stats are poor in relation to starting qbs in the leauge. yes, i know they are fine for a rookie, zomg compare to peyton manning, but its not near a certainty that hes destined to make the large leap to get to schaubs level. and hes a huge dog to achieve it next season at least. also, what about colt mccoy? his per pass metrics were damn good and i think he faced stiffer competition, pitt and balt.
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To me there are two types of QB's out there: 1. QB's who need strong weapons around him in order to put up pro bowl type numbers2. QB's who put up monster numbers regardless of talent around them or who make their mediocre surrounding talent betterI'd say that Schaub seems to be more like type 1 and that it's too early to tell if Bradford is type 1 or 2 yet but he's shown that he's capable of being type 2.
 
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Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
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He might be overdoing it a bit, but Bradford in the most poised, accurate rookie QB i have ever seen, including Manning. Im not saying he will be as good as Manning, but if that can be said about any rookie QB it is Bradford.It is scary to think of what this guy might do as he matures and gets some real WR's. Getting to play his career in a dome in the NFC West isnt going to hurt either. I know the division isnt alway going to suck, but thats alot of nice weather games.They guy was thrown to the wolves on the worst franchise over the last few years, lost all his starting WR's to injury in the begining of the year, and has lead his team the the playoffs. Mark it down now, this guy is going to be one of the NFL best QB's over the next 10 years.
 
Go deep said:
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
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He might be overdoing it a bit, but Bradford in the most poised, accurate rookie QB i have ever seen, including Manning. Im not saying he will be as good as Manning, but if that can be said about any rookie QB it is Bradford.It is scary to think of what this guy might do as he matures and gets some real WR's. Getting to play his career in a dome in the NFC West isnt going to hurt either. I know the division isnt alway going to suck, but thats alot of nice weather games.They guy was thrown to the wolves on the worst franchise over the last few years, lost all his starting WR's to injury in the begining of the year, and has lead his team the the playoffs. Mark it down now, this guy is going to be one of the NFL best QB's over the next 10 years.
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There is a difference between being NFL-ready and being great. There is a difference between having a great rookie season and being great. Not every young player continues to improve at the same rate. Pretending that Bradford has shown enough in one season (average, by NFL standards (not just rookies)) to suggest he is the best ever is silly. I don't see how an argument can be made suggesting otherwise. A lot of QBs have had better first seasons than Peyton Manning, statistically and in wins. But since maybe Marino, there has only been one Petyton Manning.
 
culdeus said:
Where does everyone stick Freeman at this point? I'm trying to figure out long term value here and I'm struggling a bit. I'm sort of seeing QB like this:RodgersBreesBradyFreemanBradfordManningPLuckVickRiversRyanBenFlaccoBut honestly, I could get talked into putting Freeman anywhere between 2nd and 10th. He's a total wildcard for me right now.
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What about Romo?How long is long term? IMO Peyton, Brady, and Freeman are too high and Rivers is too low.
 
gianmarco said:
culdeus said:
Romo to me isn't a hold in a 1QB system at this point. For one, he's old and has missed lots of injury time. When I rank QBs long term if you miss major time in 2 seasons I drop you out of the top 10.
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You're gonna have to unwrap this quite a bit.

Romo -- 30 yrs old

Brees -- 31 yrs old

Brady -- 33 yrs old

Rivers -- 29 yrs old

Peyton -- 34 yrs old

Umm, he's nowhere NEAR old for QB. The guy easily has 5 yrs of top production. So let's get to that "missed lots of injury time"

2006 -- 16 games played (well, 10, but this was his 1st year as started and took over during week 6. Was active for all 16 and didn't miss any time)

2007 -- 16 games played

2008 -- 13 games played

2009 -- 16 games played

So in his first 4 years as a starter, he missed 3 total games. This year he sustained a fractured clavicle (which has no long-term effects whatsoever) and he's "Missed lots of injury time" and warrants dropping out of the top 10? Really?
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:thumbup: It is :lmao: to say Romo is not top 10 and is not worthy of holding in a start 1 QB league.

 
culdeus said:
cheese said:
Rather than argue for or against Freeman, I'll just say that if you value Freeman anywhere close to what you posted, you should be buying him. His price isn't nearly that IMO.My biggest issue with what you have is Rivers. I can't imagine anyone would trade him for Freeman, Bradford, Manning or Luck.
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My main question was around Freeman. I have him as a huge ?, but he represents lots of potential long term value. Moreso perhaps than any QB younger than 30. I'm just trying to peg him somewhere in the mix to see what it might take value wise to get him (i.e. Rivers + X) or (Rodgers - X) type deal and see how I feel about that. The other guys I'm fairly comfortable with where I have them. Swapping Rivers for Freeman in that list probably seems the consensus of the responders here.I don't want to just hijack this into a Romo debate, but I feel pretty confident the next coach will not stat pad like Garrett. I just don't see long term upside.
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I just want to be sure I'm understanding you here. You are suggesting that you would have to trade Rivers and something else to get Freeman?
 
Concept Coop said:
Go deep said:
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
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He might be overdoing it a bit, but Bradford in the most poised, accurate rookie QB i have ever seen, including Manning. Im not saying he will be as good as Manning, but if that can be said about any rookie QB it is Bradford.It is scary to think of what this guy might do as he matures and gets some real WR's. Getting to play his career in a dome in the NFC West isnt going to hurt either. I know the division isnt alway going to suck, but thats alot of nice weather games.They guy was thrown to the wolves on the worst franchise over the last few years, lost all his starting WR's to injury in the begining of the year, and has lead his team the the playoffs. Mark it down now, this guy is going to be one of the NFL best QB's over the next 10 years.
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There is a difference between being NFL-ready and being great. There is a difference between having a great rookie season and being great. Not every young player continues to improve at the same rate. Pretending that Bradford has shown enough in one season (average, by NFL standards (not just rookies)) to suggest he is the best ever is silly. I don't see how an argument can be made suggesting otherwise. A lot of QBs have had better first seasons than Peyton Manning, statistically and in wins. But since maybe Marino, there has only been one Petyton Manning.
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Im not basing it on statistics, im basing it on watching him play. Thats not to say my eyes are always right, but its what i see, and the only thing i have to judge by.Sure, not every young player improves at the same rate, but i think it is safe to say that Bradford hasnt peaked. Most veteran Qb's in the league would have had a hard time doing what Bradford did this year. Look at what happened to Peyton when his WR's were hurt, he turned into an int machine. For a QB to start with the WRs Bradford did, and then lose those ones to injury, his accomplishments are pretty impressive.Also, i never said he was the best ever. Its unlikely he will be either, but the same could have been said about Manning after his rookie season too.
 
mcintyre1 said:
cvnpoka said:
im not watching film on bradford, i know nothing about qb mechanics and studying.

i do know that his completion percentage and y/c and any/a stats are poor in relation to starting qbs in the leauge. yes, i know they are fine for a rookie, zomg compare to peyton manning, but its not near a certainty that hes destined to make the large leap to get to schaubs level. and hes a huge dog to achieve it next season at least.

also, what about colt mccoy? his per pass metrics were damn good and i think he faced stiffer competition, pitt and balt.
Click to expand...
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks. I've never before watched a rookie (I wasn't paying attention for Manning's rookie year) and immediately thought "this guy has it" before. He knows his reads. He has a lightning quick release. He's got the arm to hit anywhere on the field, and the accuracy to drop the ball in a shoe box. In dynasty, I would trade pretty much any QB to get my hands on Bradford (unless it crippled my shot at a championship in the current year, obviously).
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i said he was a below average starting qb this year and i dont really think thats debateable considering his stats. everyone thinks its a certainty that he will make the huge jump into elite qb next year without realizing how far he has to go. thats why im debating it. i think hes a huge dog to be better than schaub next year, and if hes as good as everyone says he is, around even to be there in 3 yrs. remember matty ice elite rookie year? he actually regressed his second season. ill watch him play but, as ive said, im not no scout or talent evaluator so it would be worthless for me to try to project his ability. he was the number 1 pick and every franchise was in giddy love with him so i have no doubt he is indeed talented. but saying he will be better than manning is the kind of hyperbole that rubs me the wrong way. manning is generally rated from 1-5 all time qbs. no. bradford has a miniscule chance of becoming that good. i would bet he wont become a hall of famer.

look at bradfords numbers. he threw a lot of passes and carried the offense, yes. but his y/c was low, so he was throwing short passes. yet he only completed 60% of them. theres a disconnect there. not taking risks downfield drives his int rate down and it was a respectable 2.5%. maybe it was the playcalling.

 
Go deep said:
Im not basing it on statistics, im basing it on watching him play. Thats not to say my eyes are always right, but its what i see, and the only thing i have to judge by.Sure, not every young player improves at the same rate, but i think it is safe to say that Bradford hasnt peaked. Most veteran Qb's in the league would have had a hard time doing what Bradford did this year. Look at what happened to Peyton when his WR's were hurt, he turned into an int machine. For a QB to start with the WRs Bradford did, and then lose those ones to injury, his accomplishments are pretty impressive.Also, i never said he was the best ever. Its unlikely he will be either, but the same could have been said about Manning after his rookie season too.
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I have no problem with what you have said. You are saying Bradford is the best you have seen, and think he will go on to be one of the best QBs of his decade. That is one thing. I don't personally feel as confident saying that, but have no bones with you doing so.But for the other poster to say he will go on to be the best ever, better than Manning...The thing is this: Even if Bradford was a better rookie than Manning, based on what ever you want to base it on, it is still a reach to suggest he is anything close to a sure thing to match Manning. Best rookie you have seen? Fine. Will be the best ever, or better than manning? Silly, in my opinion. Great rookie seasons don't always equate to great careers. Even if you want to say Bradford is better than Ryan (debatable), Ryan is a clear example why you don't put too much stock into one good rookie season. Matt Ryan had a better rookie season than Manning, anyone willing to bet he will go on to be a better player?
 
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Seeing as we're on the topic of QB's, whats the consensus now concerning Joe Flacco? Seems he no longer gets discussed when talking about top 10 QBs. As an owner, I have been frustrated with his fantasy performances this year, watching him put up points early then fizzle in the second half as they run out the clock. Is Flacco no longer considered a potential elite fantasy quarterback? Should owners be jumping ship for the next big thing (aka- Luck/Bradford/Freeman)?

 
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
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What's the point in making a prediction if it isn't bold? :shrug: Yeah, I'm overhyping him if all you care about are stats. But my evaluation was more along the lines of Go Deep's, I know what I see, and I think I see greatness. Note, I didn't say he WILL be the greatest QB to ever play. I said I think he has to tools to reach that height. Disagree with me if you want, that's your prerogative, but I stick by my assessment (for whatever that's worth).
 
but i think it is safe to say that Bradford hasnt peaked.
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well i would hope not. i dont think 4.9 any/a is gonna put bradford on the level may are anticipating.
Look at what happened to Peyton when his WR's were hurt, he turned into an int machine
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but manning was going downfield and creating tds over that span. he was still much better than bradford over that span.
 
Concept Coop said:
Go deep said:
Im not basing it on statistics, im basing it on watching him play. Thats not to say my eyes are always right, but its what i see, and the only thing i have to judge by.Sure, not every young player improves at the same rate, but i think it is safe to say that Bradford hasnt peaked. Most veteran Qb's in the league would have had a hard time doing what Bradford did this year. Look at what happened to Peyton when his WR's were hurt, he turned into an int machine. For a QB to start with the WRs Bradford did, and then lose those ones to injury, his accomplishments are pretty impressive.Also, i never said he was the best ever. Its unlikely he will be either, but the same could have been said about Manning after his rookie season too.
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I have no problem with what you have said. You are saying Bradford is the best you have seen, and think he will go on to be one of the best QBs of his decade. That is one thing. I don't personally feel as confident saying that, but have no bones with you doing so.But for the other poster to say he will go on to be the best ever, better than Manning...The thing is this: Even if Bradford was a better rookie than Manning, based on what ever you want to base it on, it is still a reach to suggest he anything close to a sure thing to match Manning. Best rookie you have seen? Fine. Will be the best ever, or better than manning? Silly, in my opinion.
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I dont think anyone can say he will be he best ever, but the same thing can be said about any rookie QB that will come out over the next 100 years. Obviously we need to see more from him to say anything with any kind of certainty. At this point though, i like him better than any rookie QB i have seen with the possible exception of Peyton Manning.
 
mcintyre1 said:
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
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What's the point in making a prediction if it isn't bold? :goodposting: Yeah, I'm overhyping him if all you care about are stats. But my evaluation was more along the lines of Go Deep's, I know what I see, and I think I see greatness. Note, I didn't say he WILL be the greatest QB to ever play. I said I think he has to tools to reach that height. Disagree with me if you want, that's your prerogative, but I stick by my assessment (for whatever that's worth).
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I just don't see the value of it. Players have had better rookie seasons than Michael Jordan. What is the value of pretending to know enough to suggest they will be better than him? Especially, when nobody has been better up to now.The steps that Manning took from his rookie year, to now, are huge. Historic, even. That has nothing to do with how good a player is his rookie season, so why project those type of steps or progress?
 
cvnpoka said:
but i think it is safe to say that Bradford hasnt peaked.
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well i would hope not. i dont think 4.9 any/a is gonna put bradford on the level may are anticipating.
Look at what happened to Peyton when his WR's were hurt, he turned into an int machine
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but manning was going downfield and creating tds over that span. he was still much better than bradford over that span.

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Of course he was better, he is a veteran QB, and of the best ever, and still had a better WR corps than Bradford. My point is any QB will suffer with crap at WR, especially WR's they havnt had alot of time to build a rapport with. Bradford still has alot of room for improvement, and more importantly, should have a better, healthier WR corps next year, and more time to work with them.

As far as him throwing alot of safe, underneath passes, thats pretty much the standard for young QB's. There is no better example of this than Rivers. He barely threw any passes when he took over as the starter, and when he did, it was all short passing. Now he is the best deep passer in the league.

Anyway, im not putting Bradford in the HOF, im just saying from what i have seenso far, i am VERY impressed with.

 
Concept Coop said:
Go deep said:
Im not basing it on statistics, im basing it on watching him play. Thats not to say my eyes are always right, but its what i see, and the only thing i have to judge by.

Sure, not every young player improves at the same rate, but i think it is safe to say that Bradford hasnt peaked. Most veteran Qb's in the league would have had a hard time doing what Bradford did this year. Look at what happened to Peyton when his WR's were hurt, he turned into an int machine. For a QB to start with the WRs Bradford did, and then lose those ones to injury, his accomplishments are pretty impressive.

Also, i never said he was the best ever. Its unlikely he will be either, but the same could have been said about Manning after his rookie season too.
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I have no problem with what you have said. You are saying Bradford is the best you have seen, and think he will go on to be one of the best QBs of his decade. That is one thing. I don't personally feel as confident saying that, but have no bones with you doing so.But for the other poster to say he will go on to be the best ever, better than Manning...

The thing is this: Even if Bradford was a better rookie than Manning, based on what ever you want to base it on, it is still a reach to suggest he is anything close to a sure thing to match Manning. Best rookie you have seen? Fine. Will be the best ever, or better than manning? Silly, in my opinion. Great rookie seasons don't always equate to great careers. Even if you want to say Bradford is better than Ryan (debatable), Ryan is a clear example why you don't put too much stock into one good rookie season. Matt Ryan had a better rookie season than Manning, anyone willing to bet he will go on to be a better player?
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I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually read my post, or simply saw the words "Bradford" and "best ever" and filed it away in their mind.Let's go over the words again here:

I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury).
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Two caveats so far. Let's keep going.

If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game.
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Hey, there's 3 more.So yeah, despite 5 notations of uncertainty, I guess I pretty much did come out and say "Bradford will be the greatest QB ever."

 
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
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WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
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What's the point in making a prediction if it isn't bold? :goodposting: Yeah, I'm overhyping him if all you care about are stats. But my evaluation was more along the lines of Go Deep's, I know what I see, and I think I see greatness. Note, I didn't say he WILL be the greatest QB to ever play. I said I think he has to tools to reach that height. Disagree with me if you want, that's your prerogative, but I stick by my assessment (for whatever that's worth).
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I just don't see the value of it. Players have had better rookie seasons than Michael Jordan. What is the value of pretending to know enough to suggest they will be better than him? Especially, when nobody has been better up to now.The steps that Manning took from his rookie year, to now, are huge. Historic, even. That has nothing to do with how good a player is his rookie season, so why project those type of steps or progress?
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Isnt that what we do here in the Shark Pool, especially this thread, all the time?

We all watch the games, look at the statistics, look at past trends, etc., and try to guage what players will do in the future.

 
simdog said:
Seeing as we're on the topic of QB's, whats the consensus now concerning Joe Flacco? Seems he no longer gets discussed when talking about top 10 QBs. As an owner, I have been frustrated with his fantasy performances this year, watching him put up points early then fizzle in the second half as they run out the clock. Is Flacco no longer considered a potential elite fantasy quarterback? Should owners be jumping ship for the next big thing (aka- Luck/Bradford/Freeman)?
Click to expand...
I'm thinking the perceived ceiling with Flacco isn't as high as one would typically like to see out of a QB in the top 10. I love Flacco as a QB2 or might like him in a QBBC, but I'd be worried if he were my team's #1 outright. Of course, there are only around 5-6 guys I'd be thrilled with as my team's QB1 right now.
 
mcintyre1 said:
I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually read my post, or simply saw the words "Bradford" and "best ever" and filed it away in their mind.

Let's go over the words again here:

I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury).
Click to expand...
Two caveats so far. Let's keep going.

If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game.
Click to expand...
Hey, there's 3 more.So yeah, despite 5 notations of uncertainty, I guess I pretty much did come out and say "Bradford will be the greatest QB ever."
Click to expand...
careful backpedaling too fast there.
 
Concept Coop said:
Schaub is the 12th QB in NFL HISTORY to have back-to-back 4,000 yard seasons. AJ's TDs were down this year, I think because of injury. But he is one of the best scoring WRs in the NFL.
Click to expand...
AJ has 8 touchdowns this year. His career TD receptions are 4, 6, 2, 5, 8, 8, 9, and 8 (plus this week if he plays). His touchdowns aren't down; they are right on yearly averages for last four years.It is interesting that AJ is often taken as the first WR off the board in redrafts but he's never hit 10 touchdowns before.
 
this was the first year aj was first off the board iirc. last, probably in some leagues, but i think moss was the consensus top wr. prior to last year he was routinely denigrated for being injury prone.

 
Go deep said:
Isnt that what we do here in the Shark Pool, especially this thread, all the time?We all watch the games, look at the statistics, look at past trends, etc., and try to guage what players will do in the future.
Click to expand...
Do you think it is logical to project a player to be one of the best ever after 15 games?
 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Concept Coop said:
Schaub is the 12th QB in NFL HISTORY to have back-to-back 4,000 yard seasons. AJ's TDs were down this year, I think because of injury. But he is one of the best scoring WRs in the NFL.
Click to expand...
AJ has 8 touchdowns this year. His career TD receptions are 4, 6, 2, 5, 8, 8, 9, and 8 (plus this week if he plays). His touchdowns aren't down; they are right on yearly averages for last four years.It is interesting that AJ is often taken as the first WR off the board in redrafts but he's never hit 10 touchdowns before.
Click to expand...
3 years ago AJ scored 8 TD's in 9 games.Also, he is taken first in drafts because he finished as WR1 in PPG in 2007, finished 2nd in 2008, and 1st in 2009.
 
Concept Coop said:
Go deep said:
Isnt that what we do here in the Shark Pool, especially this thread, all the time?We all watch the games, look at the statistics, look at past trends, etc., and try to guage what players will do in the future.
Click to expand...
Do you think it is logical to project a player to be one of the best ever after 15 games?
Click to expand...
To say he is now the best, no, its not logical, but to predict he will be the best, sure.
 
Go deep said:
Ramblin Wreck said:
Concept Coop said:
Schaub is the 12th QB in NFL HISTORY to have back-to-back 4,000 yard seasons. AJ's TDs were down this year, I think because of injury. But he is one of the best scoring WRs in the NFL.
Click to expand...
AJ has 8 touchdowns this year. His career TD receptions are 4, 6, 2, 5, 8, 8, 9, and 8 (plus this week if he plays). His touchdowns aren't down; they are right on yearly averages for last four years.It is interesting that AJ is often taken as the first WR off the board in redrafts but he's never hit 10 touchdowns before.
Click to expand...
3 years ago AJ scored 8 TD's in 9 games.Also, he is taken first in drafts because he finished as WR1 in PPG in 2007, finished 2nd in 2008, and 1st in 2009.
Click to expand...
I know why he's taken first; I do it myself. Just found that stat interesting for a receiver.
 
Just Win Baby said:
gianmarco said:
culdeus said:
Romo to me isn't a hold in a 1QB system at this point. For one, he's old and has missed lots of injury time. When I rank QBs long term if you miss major time in 2 seasons I drop you out of the top 10.
Click to expand...
You're gonna have to unwrap this quite a bit.

Romo -- 30 yrs old

Brees -- 31 yrs old

Brady -- 33 yrs old

Rivers -- 29 yrs old

Peyton -- 34 yrs old

Umm, he's nowhere NEAR old for QB. The guy easily has 5 yrs of top production. So let's get to that "missed lots of injury time"

2006 -- 16 games played (well, 10, but this was his 1st year as started and took over during week 6. Was active for all 16 and didn't miss any time)

2007 -- 16 games played

2008 -- 13 games played

2009 -- 16 games played

So in his first 4 years as a starter, he missed 3 total games. This year he sustained a fractured clavicle (which has no long-term effects whatsoever) and he's "Missed lots of injury time" and warrants dropping out of the top 10? Really?
Click to expand...
:thumbup: It is :thumbup: to say Romo is not top 10 and is not worthy of holding in a start 1 QB league.
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I don't expect there to be further discourse here as every argument against Romo was thoroughly debunked, but yeah, this kind of blows my mind. People really, really have a hard time with the guy, no matter how fantasy-rich his situation is and how phenomenal his production has been. Next to Rodgers and Brees, I don't see any quarterback in the league in a better situation than him. I'd be completely shocked if he wasn't in the top five fantasy-wise for the next three years. Easily.
 
cvnpoka said:
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bu...icle1142551.ece

According to the STATSPASS statistical service, he leads the NFL in broken tackles with 27 despite having nearly 100 fewer rushing attempts than the No. 2 back, the Giants' Ahmad Bradshaw with 23.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I'm still amazed that people are so down on the guy. He helped me to two titles this year, and if he's got as little faith in him as people seem to have, I plan to buy him all offseason long. He looks like an absolute man out there, and I would actually compare him to Earl Campbell in his running style.Now, he's not that fast, but he's a huge guy, he can run with power, but he's got some pretty nice moves as well, and he does have decent speed. Caddy can't last forever, and I haven't seen him drop any passes (iirc, he's caught all 4 or so passes I have seen thrown to him this season) so he's got room to grow there too.

With a whole season, offseason, and preseason to learn the playbook and the desire/technique to pass protect, he could be at least a two-down and GL back, and if someone gets injured, he may even be adequate as a workhorse. Maybe.

I like what I see though. The Bucs' OLine was injured this year too, so that'll make things even easier. Not to mention that the passing game should develop more in Freeman's third year and MW/Benn's second seasons.

 
LTDynasty said:
Any thoughts on Peyton Hillis' future? Is he a sell high this offseason? Not sure all that much can be had for him in dynasty...
Click to expand...
I think the 2nd portion of your post says it all to me "Not sure all that much can be had for him in dynasty." That makes him a BUY in dynasty as opposed to a sell. If people are not believing the hype, not believing the story that they would disregard a breakout player who scored in the top 5 as far as RBs go, then it seems he is being undervalue tremendously.Of course there are question marks in Hardesty, but there are also tons of positives. I may attempt to make a move for him after my draft next year (i don't play in dynasty, but a keeper where we keep 6 at no cost and i don't have Peyton in that league), as I think that would be a perfect time to go after him for me. I'm probably a lot higher on Hillis than most. In my opinion people get too cute, what you see on the field and in present holds a lot more power in my mind than assumptions/predictions and the like. I love Cleveland for next year, they are a team on the up (yes, I like Mccoy very much), they have a great offensive line and running is their strength. Hillis also is a great pass catcher which gives him a lot of extra value, kind of like a Blount but with an extra 5-7 points per game due to the receiving. Hardesty has not proven he can stay healthy, he has not proven he can even produce at the NFL level. Hillis has proven both. A lot also depends on who is coaching. If the Mangidiot is in, I think Hillis' role is safe, albeit a bit reduced.
 
valhallan said:
The Real Hipster Doofus said:
The Freeman love here is out of control. Talking about him in the top 5????I can't see how anyone realistically has him higher than around #10.
Click to expand...
He finished 7th at age 22. Do you see him regressing?Not sure I'd put him top 5 myself, but it's not outlandish at all. - 1st rounder- prototypical size- extremely impressive mobility and instincts- excellent young talent around him- only 22- 60% completion, 7+ ypa- running statsWhat's not to like?
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It's not logically sound in my opinion to measure production based on total points. I think it is much better to do a points per game played, since Freeman only finished so high (in my league he finished 10th) because he played every single game. Of course you would say that durability is a value, and I would agree. However, if I have a QB that gets hurt, I don't play the hurt QB in my lineup, but rather play my backup. So if you're going to use total points, you would at least have to add in some sort of replacement value for the QBs who missed games, for each game. I think Freeman is a bit overrated now. I woudn't have him in the top 10 despite his age. I think the playcalling favored him mightly this year as the Bucs coaches went absolutely pass happy. If they want to move into the premier echelon of teams, they will have to stick more to the run, especially in goal line situations. This year, especially in goal line, they passed far more than prudent, in my opinion.
 
valhallan said:
Concept Coop said:
valhallan said:
Concept Coop said:
Schaub is the 12th QB in NFL HISTORY to have back-to-back 4,000 yard seasons. AJ's TDs were down this year, I think because of injury. But he is one of the best scoring WRs in the NFL. Please help me understand why Schaub will continue to finish around 7-12. What about Freeman suggests that he will score higher than Schaub? I think people see the number 22 and fall in love. Not all 2nd year QBs who show promise improve on their numbers much after that. It wasn't long ago that Matt Ryan was talked about as a top 5 dynasty QB.
Click to expand...
I don't see anything special when I watch Schaub or Ryan, but I do when I watch Freeman. You can focus on stats if you want - dynasty needs people with varying philosophies. I prefer focusing on what I see, which is why I and guys like F&L had Foster on our rosters before this season. I've seen this argument hashed out a million times in this thread and won't be a part of it. Let's agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
What is special about him? I am not asking to be an antagonist - honest question. Maybe you can point out what I should be looking for next time I watch him play.
Click to expand...
He has eyes in the back of his head much like Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, Romo. I firmly believe that's something you either have or you don't and you can't learn it. As soon as I see a guy has that ability, my dynasty alarm starts blaring. Aside from that, he goes through all of his reads even when he's on the run. He's accurate. He's cool under pressure. He gets the pass out quick when needed. He rises to the occasion instead of shrinking from it. Basically everything I would want in an NFL QB, and typically great NFL QBs become great fantasy QBs. I won't be shocked if he never finishes top 5, but unlike some others here I won't be shocked if he does. Guess that's the key difference.
Click to expand...
Valhallan, I'm with you on your comments on Freeman. Would you trade Eli straight for Freeman in a dynasty TD-scoring with length bonus? I'm pretty much near pulling th trigger, if the other guy will listen.
 
plyka said:
It's not logically sound in my opinion to measure production based on total points. I think it is much better to do a points per game played, since Freeman only finished so high (in my league he finished 10th) because he played every single game. Of course you would say that durability is a value, and I would agree. However, if I have a QB that gets hurt, I don't play the hurt QB in my lineup, but rather play my backup. So if you're going to use total points, you would at least have to add in some sort of replacement value for the QBs who missed games, for each game. I think Freeman is a bit overrated now. I woudn't have him in the top 10 despite his age. I think the playcalling favored him mightly this year as the Bucs coaches went absolutely pass happy. If they want to move into the premier echelon of teams, they will have to stick more to the run, especially in goal line situations. This year, especially in goal line, they passed far more than prudent, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Right, well I ticked off 7 reasons to like him long-term that had nothing to do with his total points. The coaching staff passing in the red zone just shows how much confidence they already have in Freeman. The only 14+ game starters with fewer turnovers than him are Brady and Cassel. Freeman is also top 10 in Football Outsiders' metrics, though I know not everyone buys into those.
SNOOP said:
Valhallan, I'm with you on your comments on Freeman. Would you trade Eli straight for Freeman in a dynasty TD-scoring with length bonus? I'm pretty much near pulling th trigger, if the other guy will listen.
Click to expand...
I would. Eli is just a solid backup, not a difference maker. Freeman has a much higher likelihood of finishing top 5 in a season than Eli, in my opinion.
 
culdeus said:
cheese said:
Rather than argue for or against Freeman, I'll just say that if you value Freeman anywhere close to what you posted, you should be buying him. His price isn't nearly that IMO.

My biggest issue with what you have is Rivers. I can't imagine anyone would trade him for Freeman, Bradford, Manning or Luck.
Click to expand...
My main question was around Freeman. I have him as a huge ?, but he represents lots of potential long term value. Moreso perhaps than any QB younger than 30. I'm just trying to peg him somewhere in the mix to see what it might take value wise to get him (i.e. Rivers + X) or (Rodgers - X) type deal and see how I feel about that.

The other guys I'm fairly comfortable with where I have them. Swapping Rivers for Freeman in that list probably seems the consensus of the responders here.

I don't want to just hijack this into a Romo debate, but I feel pretty confident the next coach will not stat pad like Garrett. I just don't see long term upside.
Click to expand...
I like Freeman - a lot - but I wouldn't put him nearly that high and certainly behind Rivers as others have suggested. I think Rivers is probably top 3-4. In any case, if you were moving Rodgers and Rivers in a deal for Freeman, you can likely get a lot back. Also don't understand that second comment about "stat padding". Romo finished QB2 in Garrett's first year as OC (and Romo's first year starting). Are you suggesting that all of his success to this point was just "padding stats"? Are we just going to ignore all the talent around him as well?

 
plyka said:
LTDynasty said:
Any thoughts on Peyton Hillis' future? Is he a sell high this offseason? Not sure all that much can be had for him in dynasty...
Click to expand...
I think the 2nd portion of your post says it all to me "Not sure all that much can be had for him in dynasty." That makes him a BUY in dynasty as opposed to a sell. If people are not believing the hype, not believing the story that they would disregard a breakout player who scored in the top 5 as far as RBs go, then it seems he is being undervalue tremendously.Of course there are question marks in Hardesty, but there are also tons of positives. I may attempt to make a move for him after my draft next year (i don't play in dynasty, but a keeper where we keep 6 at no cost and i don't have Peyton in that league), as I think that would be a perfect time to go after him for me. I'm probably a lot higher on Hillis than most. In my opinion people get too cute, what you see on the field and in present holds a lot more power in my mind than assumptions/predictions and the like. I love Cleveland for next year, they are a team on the up (yes, I like Mccoy very much), they have a great offensive line and running is their strength. Hillis also is a great pass catcher which gives him a lot of extra value, kind of like a Blount but with an extra 5-7 points per game due to the receiving. Hardesty has not proven he can stay healthy, he has not proven he can even produce at the NFL level. Hillis has proven both. A lot also depends on who is coaching. If the Mangidiot is in, I think Hillis' role is safe, albeit a bit reduced.
Click to expand...
What would you feel comfortable selling him for? I.e., what would you consider a "fair" price as a buyer and a seller?
 
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Concept Coop said:
mcintyre1 said:
Honestly, why are you even debating this if you outright refuse to even watch Bradford play? He's a stud. Pure and simple. I think he'll be better than Manning (barring injury). If he proves to have elite durability (still very much up in the air), I think he has the physical and mental tools to be the greatest (statistical) QB to play the game. That is how good he looks.
Click to expand...
WOW. This is just silly. Manning is one of the top 3-5 QBs ever. The best in the last decade plus. Sam Bradford is having a good year, but spare us the hype job. The best QB ever?
Click to expand...
What's the point in making a prediction if it isn't bold? :goodposting: Yeah, I'm overhyping him if all you care about are stats. But my evaluation was more along the lines of Go Deep's, I know what I see, and I think I see greatness. Note, I didn't say he WILL be the greatest QB to ever play. I said I think he has to tools to reach that height. Disagree with me if you want, that's your prerogative, but I stick by my assessment (for whatever that's worth).
Click to expand...
I just don't see the value of it. Players have had better rookie seasons than Michael Jordan. What is the value of pretending to know enough to suggest they will be better than him? Especially, when nobody has been better up to now.The steps that Manning took from his rookie year, to now, are huge. Historic, even. That has nothing to do with how good a player is his rookie season, so why project those type of steps or progress?
Click to expand...
And there are also a lot of people who said Kobe and Lebron would be all-time greats after seeing them play as rookies... and they're maybe not so far off there. Just saying.
 
and what separated guys like lebron and kobe as rookies, from players like brandon roy, drose, amare, melo etc. guys that played similarly well as rookies and will certainly have great careers, many all star games, potential hof births but no chance at all time great status.

currently, where does john wall and blake griffin and westbrook and durant project? they are playing fantastic, as good, if not better than kobe/lebron as youngsters, and have ridiculous physical tools. they could become all time greats, but they are still pretty large dogs to achieve it. they are huge favorites to be perennial top 10 players and all stars though.

lots of players have played very well as youngsters and rookies, and had great careers, only a few have become manning marino brady elway etc.

 
cvnpoka said:
and what separated guys like lebron and kobe as rookies, from players like brandon roy, drose, amare, melo etc. guys that played similarly well as rookies and will certainly have great careers, many all star games, potential hof births but no chance at all time great status.currently, where does john wall and blake griffin and westbrook and durant project? they are playing fantastic, as good, if not better than kobe/lebron as youngsters, and have ridiculous physical tools. they could become all time greats, but they are still pretty large dogs to achieve it. they are huge favorites to be perennial top 10 players and all stars though.lots of players have played very well as youngsters and rookies, and had great careers, only a few have become manning marino brady elway etc.
Click to expand...
What seperates Lebron and Kobe (and I believe Durant) is that people watched them play. Until you actually start doing that and stop using stat analysis of a 23 year old rookie QB as your sole basis for evaluation, nobody in this thread will take your opinions seriously. There is more to any game than just stats, and players like LeBron, Kobe, Bradford, etc just jump off the TV when you are watching. If you choose not to watch, then you will never get it.
 
corpcow said:
plyka said:
LTDynasty said:
Any thoughts on Peyton Hillis' future? Is he a sell high this offseason? Not sure all that much can be had for him in dynasty...
Click to expand...
I think the 2nd portion of your post says it all to me "Not sure all that much can be had for him in dynasty." That makes him a BUY in dynasty as opposed to a sell. If people are not believing the hype, not believing the story that they would disregard a breakout player who scored in the top 5 as far as RBs go, then it seems he is being undervalue tremendously.Of course there are question marks in Hardesty, but there are also tons of positives. I may attempt to make a move for him after my draft next year (i don't play in dynasty, but a keeper where we keep 6 at no cost and i don't have Peyton in that league), as I think that would be a perfect time to go after him for me. I'm probably a lot higher on Hillis than most. In my opinion people get too cute, what you see on the field and in present holds a lot more power in my mind than assumptions/predictions and the like. I love Cleveland for next year, they are a team on the up (yes, I like Mccoy very much), they have a great offensive line and running is their strength. Hillis also is a great pass catcher which gives him a lot of extra value, kind of like a Blount but with an extra 5-7 points per game due to the receiving. Hardesty has not proven he can stay healthy, he has not proven he can even produce at the NFL level. Hillis has proven both. A lot also depends on who is coaching. If the Mangidiot is in, I think Hillis' role is safe, albeit a bit reduced.
Click to expand...
What would you feel comfortable selling him for? I.e., what would you consider a "fair" price as a buyer and a seller?
Click to expand...
Because I was strong at RB and weak at WR, I tried moving Hillis for someone in the low WR1/high WR2 range (think Jennings, Dez Bryant, etc.) in my dynasty league but couldn't get any takers. May try this again in the off season or early next season provided his fantasy numbers remain high. I think if he continues to produce next season (if there is a next season) then there may be more takers.Keep in mind that Hillis has three things working against him in regards to perceived value -- he was relatively unknown prior to this season, he's a white RB, and he's on the Browns. Maybe next season perceptions will change?
 
corpcow said:
And there are also a lot of people who said Kobe and Lebron would be all-time greats after seeing them play as rookies... and they're maybe not so far off there. Just saying.
Click to expand...
Kobe looked awful his first season. He was drafted 16th (I think). I don't think anyone was calling him a future all-time great.But, I do get your point and will note it is valid. Just as many fans were claiming Damon Staudamire, Tyreke Evans, Elton Brand, and plenty of other players with good rookie seasons, were going to be great. If we want to use basketball, plenty were claiming Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings were going to be special after great rookie seasons. Not even a year later and they came tumbling back down to earth, due to no fault of their own. Their games were NBAready, but that doesn't always translate to elite careers. If fact, in rarely ever does. If you want to use football, Ryan and Flacco are two great examples of this happening. Ryan was a flashy top 5 dynasty QB not too long ago.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
what separated guys like lebron and kobe as rookies, from players like brandon roy, drose, amare, melo etc. guys that played similarly well as rookies and will certainly have great careers, many all star games, potential hof births but no chance at all time great status.
Click to expand...
That is not true at all. Kobe and Durant did not look great as rookies. Durant put up points, but was not efficient. Kobe didn't put up points and was not efficient. Melo had a much better rookie season, and still might be the better player than Durant. Derrick Rose is on a Kevin Durant like pace and also had a better rookie season than Durant. Saying he has no chance to be an all time great is just wrong. He is scoring 24 points , dishing out 8 assists and taking in 5 rebounds a game. All in his 3rd season. Have you watched him play?It is easy to sit here and say you only have to watch them play to know they will be great, but that is not the case at all. Based on rookie seasons, Damon Stautamire would be doing what Kobe is right now, and Kobe would be a role player. And, just to make my point: Derek Rose looked like a good player his rookie season, an All-Star his second season, because he added a mid-range jumper over the summer. Now he looks like a top 3 PG (already) because his defense has taken a huge step, and he is now shooting 40% from downtown (up from 26%) all in one summer. Having a good rookie season did not make Rose a top 5 MVP candidate, his major improvements did.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
agree with concept coup. drastic hindsight bias is occurring wrt to the nba tangent. i remember after lebrons rookie year pundits were split on if they would prefer wade or melo to lebron and very few thought he would turn out this good.

all time greats are rarely predicted in advance. the jump to get there is just monstrous.

 
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