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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners

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I started reading the first book a few days ago. My original plan was to finish the book entirely before starting the series, but I'm getting antsy. Question to those who have read the first book:

I just finished the chapter where Cat "arrests" Tyrion at the inn on her way back to Winterfell from King's Landing. I don't want the series to "spoil" the book in any way. Am I okay to watch the first two episodes or do I need to read a little further?

Yes and no. They've accelerated some of the plotlines, particularly Danyreas', so there's no real solid answer to that unfortunately. Storylines are still pretty new though so I don't think you'd be spoiling anything by watching the first 2. Plus it'll give you some visuals to keep in your head while reading.

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Speaking of differences, how about the Cersei dialog about having a black haired child before Joff... I think they're doing a pretty good job of conducting the mystery that started the whole conflict in a short amount of time and without the benefit of narrative insights. That's one positive difference from the books I can stand behind. I'm really not that impressed with the Dany stuff as of yet, other than last night's sex scenes, those were nice.

I liked Cersei's speech about the kid too. I'm curious where they're going with that, as it could be used to have things play out exactly as they do in the book or use it to go in a slightly different direction without spoiling the overall plot arc (it'll just cast her in a bit of a different light).

I would say she is most definitely telling the truth. The whole investigation to Joff's parentage, started by Jon Arryn and resulting in his death, settled on the fact that all of Robert's bastards had his black hair (Arryn's "The seed is strong" from his deathbed) But they don't really have time to go that deep into that so they toss this out to circumvent all of that and use the dead baby to show that all the blonde children aren't Roberts. Unless they plan on fundamentally changing Cersei, there's no other light to show her in.

Most of the changes from the book to the show, I can see why they did it and it doesn't really alter the storyline fundamentally. Just offers up some shortcuts because of time/expositionary constraints.

She makes it clear in AFfC that she has been aborting Robert's children, this seems different.

Like I said, it's a shortcut to show the fact that Robert's kids have black hair and hers and Jamie's are blonde. They won't have time for Eddard to go through all the steps of figuring out what Jon was investigating and go through all the books and whorehouses and such. She may or may not reveal she's been aborting Robert's kids after that first one, but I am quite sure the reason for this revelation is for the reason I stated

By "telling the truth" I meant whether the child died of a "fever" or by something else. Remember that Arryn died from a supposed "fever" too.

I haven't read the books and don't want to be spoiled really, but I just can't help myself.

I knew as soon as she was talking about a dead baby that she killed it. I didn't pick up on the dark hair and reasoning and that Jeffrey (and I guess the other blondes we saw) are the products of the incest.

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Speaking of differences, how about the Cersei dialog about having a black haired child before Joff... I think they're doing a pretty good job of conducting the mystery that started the whole conflict in a short amount of time and without the benefit of narrative insights. That's one positive difference from the books I can stand behind. I'm really not that impressed with the Dany stuff as of yet, other than last night's sex scenes, those were nice.

I liked Cersei's speech about the kid too. I'm curious where they're going with that, as it could be used to have things play out exactly as they do in the book or use it to go in a slightly different direction without spoiling the overall plot arc (it'll just cast her in a bit of a different light).

I would say she is most definitely telling the truth. The whole investigation to Joff's parentage, started by Jon Arryn and resulting in his death, settled on the fact that all of Robert's bastards had his black hair (Arryn's "The seed is strong" from his deathbed) But they don't really have time to go that deep into that so they toss this out to circumvent all of that and use the dead baby to show that all the blonde children aren't Roberts. Unless they plan on fundamentally changing Cersei, there's no other light to show her in.

Most of the changes from the book to the show, I can see why they did it and it doesn't really alter the storyline fundamentally. Just offers up some shortcuts because of time/expositionary constraints.

She makes it clear in AFfC that she has been aborting Robert's children, this seems different.

Like I said, it's a shortcut to show the fact that Robert's kids have black hair and hers and Jamie's are blonde. They won't have time for Eddard to go through all the steps of figuring out what Jon was investigating and go through all the books and whorehouses and such. She may or may not reveal she's been aborting Robert's kids after that first one, but I am quite sure the reason for this revelation is for the reason I stated

By "telling the truth" I meant whether the child died of a "fever" or by something else. Remember that Arryn died from a supposed "fever" too.

Gotcha. I thought you meant the whole story, I never thought about it that way. These spoiler tag conversations suck.

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I started reading the first book a few days ago. My original plan was to finish the book entirely before starting the series, but I'm getting antsy. Question to those who have read the first book:

I just finished the chapter where Cat "arrests" Tyrion at the inn on her way back to Winterfell from King's Landing. I don't want the series to "spoil" the book in any way. Am I okay to watch the first two episodes or do I need to read a little further?

Yes and no. They've accelerated some of the plotlines, particularly Danyreas', so there's no real solid answer to that unfortunately. Storylines are still pretty new though so I don't think you'd be spoiling anything by watching the first 2. Plus it'll give you some visuals to keep in your head while reading.That's kinda what I figured. I'm plowing through the thing so I think I'll just hold off, I'm betting I have the book done by this weekend. It's pretty tough to put down.

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I started reading the first book a few days ago. My original plan was to finish the book entirely before starting the series, but I'm getting antsy. Question to those who have read the first book:

I just finished the chapter where Cat "arrests" Tyrion at the inn on her way back to Winterfell from King's Landing. I don't want the series to "spoil" the book in any way. Am I okay to watch the first two episodes or do I need to read a little further?

Yes and no. They've accelerated some of the plotlines, particularly Danyreas', so there's no real solid answer to that unfortunately. Storylines are still pretty new though so I don't think you'd be spoiling anything by watching the first 2. Plus it'll give you some visuals to keep in your head while reading.
That's kinda what I figured. I'm plowing through the thing so I think I'll just hold off, I'm betting I have the book done by this weekend. It's pretty tough to put down.If you're plowing through it then just finish it. Watch ep1 if you can't wait and then do a double feature on Sunday!

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Gotcha. I thought you meant the whole story, I never thought about it that way. These spoiler tag conversations suck.

Yeah, but they're necessary and fair in this case IMO.

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I want to find out what kind of dogs they are using for the wolves, absolutely stunning animals.

not sure if this has been answered yet as i skipped over about 1/2 a page where i saw lots o "spoiler" tags. But, anyway, they're a Northern Inuit. It's a fairly new breed and despite their appearance, they are actually a very friendly, not so aggressive breed. A cross breed between a Huskie and Shepherd i believe.As for the show seemingly skipping over a lot of important info, that seems to be the style of HBO these days. I thought the same thing when watching Boardwalk Empire the first few times. That the show seemed to cram a lot into each hour, and that many major plotlines were given only a line or even just a glance from a character. But i got used to it after a few episodes and imagine i'll do the same here

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I want to find out what kind of dogs they are using for the wolves, absolutely stunning animals.

not sure if this has been answered yet as i skipped over about 1/2 a page where i saw lots o "spoiler" tags. But, anyway, they're a Northern Inuit. It's a fairly new breed and despite their appearance, they are actually a very friendly, not so aggressive breed. A cross breed between a Huskie and Shepherd i believe.As for the show seemingly skipping over a lot of important info, that seems to be the style of HBO these days. I thought the same thing when watching Boardwalk Empire the first few times. That the show seemed to cram a lot into each hour, and that many major plotlines were given only a line or even just a glance from a character. But i got used to it after a few episodes and imagine i'll do the same here
Evidently, those Northern Inuits were a PITA to train for this so they weren't able to get a ton of usable footage.I think the show is doing a fairly good job of keeping the main threads lucid and setting up later events. The big advanatge to reading the book vs watching this series is that the book has the appendices to help keep all of the characters straight. It appears HBO has chosen to either spoonfeed the audience less at a time than Martin, completely ignore some, or combine them (for instance, I don't think Theon has been mentioned by name yet even though he's had dialogue and a fair amount of screen time). Remains to be seen how well they balance all of this.

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I want to find out what kind of dogs they are using for the wolves, absolutely stunning animals.

not sure if this has been answered yet as i skipped over about 1/2 a page where i saw lots o "spoiler" tags. But, anyway, they're a Northern Inuit. It's a fairly new breed and despite their appearance, they are actually a very friendly, not so aggressive breed. A cross breed between a Huskie and Shepherd i believe.As for the show seemingly skipping over a lot of important info, that seems to be the style of HBO these days. I thought the same thing when watching Boardwalk Empire the first few times. That the show seemed to cram a lot into each hour, and that many major plotlines were given only a line or even just a glance from a character. But i got used to it after a few episodes and imagine i'll do the same here
Evidently, those Northern Inuits were a PITA to train for this so they weren't able to get a ton of usable footage.I think the show is doing a fairly good job of keeping the main threads lucid and setting up later events. The big advanatge to reading the book vs watching this series is that the book has the appendices to help keep all of the characters straight. It appears HBO has chosen to either spoonfeed the audience less at a time than Martin, completely ignore some, or combine them (for instance, I don't think Theon has been mentioned by name yet even though he's had dialogue and a fair amount of screen time). Remains to be seen how well they balance all of this.
Is Theone the guy with Rob a lot? Also with the other Starks (and Snow) often? I kept thinking he was another brother until I saw the "family tree" earlier in the thread.

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I want to find out what kind of dogs they are using for the wolves, absolutely stunning animals.

not sure if this has been answered yet as i skipped over about 1/2 a page where i saw lots o "spoiler" tags. But, anyway, they're a Northern Inuit. It's a fairly new breed and despite their appearance, they are actually a very friendly, not so aggressive breed. A cross breed between a Huskie and Shepherd i believe.As for the show seemingly skipping over a lot of important info, that seems to be the style of HBO these days. I thought the same thing when watching Boardwalk Empire the first few times. That the show seemed to cram a lot into each hour, and that many major plotlines were given only a line or even just a glance from a character. But i got used to it after a few episodes and imagine i'll do the same here
Evidently, those Northern Inuits were a PITA to train for this so they weren't able to get a ton of usable footage.I think the show is doing a fairly good job of keeping the main threads lucid and setting up later events. The big advanatge to reading the book vs watching this series is that the book has the appendices to help keep all of the characters straight. It appears HBO has chosen to either spoonfeed the audience less at a time than Martin, completely ignore some, or combine them (for instance, I don't think Theon has been mentioned by name yet even though he's had dialogue and a fair amount of screen time). Remains to be seen how well they balance all of this.
Is Theone the guy with Rob a lot? Also with the other Starks (and Snow) often? I kept thinking he was another brother until I saw the "family tree" earlier in the thread.
Yep, that's him. I'm sure they'll "introduce" him soon but it must be confusing for non-readers wondering who he his.

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Is Theone the guy with Rob a lot? Also with the other Starks (and Snow) often? I kept thinking he was another brother until I saw the "family tree" earlier in the thread.

Yes. Theon Greyjoy. They have played him as Ned's squire. He is the heir to House Greyjoy and Ned's ward/hostage. When King Robert says to Ned I have not seen you in 9 years when he first comes to Winterfell, he is referring to Greyjoy's Rebellion when Theon's family revolted. Ned and Robert kicked the $#(+ out of the Greyjoy's and took Theon hostage to insure Balon Greyjoy's good behavior. Edited by TeamDingo

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I want to find out what kind of dogs they are using for the wolves, absolutely stunning animals.

not sure if this has been answered yet as i skipped over about 1/2 a page where i saw lots o "spoiler" tags. But, anyway, they're a Northern Inuit. It's a fairly new breed and despite their appearance, they are actually a very friendly, not so aggressive breed. A cross breed between a Huskie and Shepherd i believe.As for the show seemingly skipping over a lot of important info, that seems to be the style of HBO these days. I thought the same thing when watching Boardwalk Empire the first few times. That the show seemed to cram a lot into each hour, and that many major plotlines were given only a line or even just a glance from a character. But i got used to it after a few episodes and imagine i'll do the same here
Evidently, those Northern Inuits were a PITA to train for this so they weren't able to get a ton of usable footage.I think the show is doing a fairly good job of keeping the main threads lucid and setting up later events. The big advanatge to reading the book vs watching this series is that the book has the appendices to help keep all of the characters straight. It appears HBO has chosen to either spoonfeed the audience less at a time than Martin, completely ignore some, or combine them (for instance, I don't think Theon has been mentioned by name yet even though he's had dialogue and a fair amount of screen time). Remains to be seen how well they balance all of this.
Is Theone the guy with Rob a lot? Also with the other Starks (and Snow) often? I kept thinking he was another brother until I saw the "family tree" earlier in the thread.
Yep, that's him. I'm sure they'll "introduce" him soon but it must be confusing for non-readers wondering who he his.
The only way I was able to tell him apart from the Starks is that he has his family Kracken emblem embroidered on his coat. :nerd:

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.
I really hate the kid playing Joffrey, so I guess that means he is doing it well.

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.
OK . . . So Jamie Lannister is who physically killed the former king (Aerys?? who is the father of the blonde's across the sea, correct?) and then somehow Robert became king? What happened to Tywin?

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.
Apologies for the misinformation. I had thought he held his position throughout. What's your crackpot theory?eta: one of the worst casting choices so far, IMO. Edited by mad sweeney

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.
OK . . . So Jamie Lannister is who physically killed the former king (Aerys?? who is the father of the blonde's across the sea, correct?) and then somehow Robert became king? What happened to Tywin?
Yes Jamie (who was/is a member of the Kingsguard [Westeros Secret Service]) physically killed King Aerys II Targaryen (father to Viseyrs and Daenryes currently in exile across the Narrow Sea).Tywin is one of the most powerful Lords in the realm. He is Warden of the West. Ned Stark is Warden of the North. Edited by TeamDingo

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.
OK . . . So Jamie Lannister is who physically killed the former king (Aerys?? who is the father of the blonde's across the sea, correct?) and then somehow Robert became king? What happened to Tywin?
Jamie was part of Robert's Rebellion as Stark, Lannister and Baratheon (among others) houses teamed up. Jamie was in the Kingsguard (Aerys' personal bodyguards) and slit Aerys' throat as the Stark/Baratheon hordes were descending on King's Landing. Afterwards, Robert married Cersei to join those two houses. Robert's bride to be was Eddard's sister who died after she was abducted by the Mad King's son, Prince Rhaegar, which actually kicked off the rebellion. Robert took Jon Arryn (his and Ned's mentor as mentioned last night) as his Hand, whose recent death has set in motion the story. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock, his house's castle in Lannisport and is one of the four great Lords of the realm.That's pretty close, might be off a bit but I am trying not to let any further info leak out from later in the books, nor emphasize anything that might become more important later. Edited by mad sweeney

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.
Apologies for the misinformation. I had thought he held his position throughout. What's your crackpot theory?eta: one of the worst casting choices so far, IMO.
I think his face is fine. But he was hamming it up so I am not happy with him so far. It does not help that Sophie Turner/Sansa is as tall as him. Plus the scene was poorly shot and written. It plays much better in the book inside Sansa's head and they did not give it enough time to work on screen.My crackpot theory will take a while to write and I am on my way out the door but I will post it later.

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Is it worthwhile to start another thread to just discuss the series and not the books? I dont plan on reading the books anytime soon and I want to avoid even the hints of spoilers.

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Is it worthwhile to start another thread to just discuss the series and not the books? I dont plan on reading the books anytime soon and I want to avoid even the hints of spoilers.

Dunno how it would work here but they have forums here that have with and without spoilers threads.

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I think I mentioned earlier that I'm re-reading the series. Finished book 2 on Saturday and picked up book 3 at the library this afternoon. With that and watching the series I'm enjoying this thread.

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I know it's only episode 2 but I find myself impatient for them to explain a lot more and introduce us to some more characters. Boggles the mind how they are going to handle the jousting tournament and the many, many other characters that are first introduced there but aren't important until later on.

As a fan of the show who hasn't read the books, I think they have done well with the amount of characters, and anymore would be too much for the non book reading audience to follow along with (at least me). I have had to pull up the links posted in this thread earlier to HBO's viewer guide, etc. a few times to figure out what is going on.

and thank you for using the spoiler tags in here, I would hate to have the show messed up by reading some stuff that happens later in the series.

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Is it worthwhile to start another thread to just discuss the series and not the books? I dont plan on reading the books anytime soon and I want to avoid even the hints of spoilers.

Dunno how it would work here but they have forums here that have with and without spoilers threads.
Cool, thanks for the link!

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Check it out...

Go to HBO.com, and check out HBO GO. It's a service that current HBO subscribers can access through their website. You can watch the episode online, and while the episode is playing, it has cool, informative information that you can view. Good for those that haven't read the books and may be a bit lost.

Be sure to select, "watch with special features". As the episode plays out, it will introduce new characters on the right side of the screen, along with a little back story for each.

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Is it worthwhile to start another thread to just discuss the series and not the books? I dont plan on reading the books anytime soon and I want to avoid even the hints of spoilers.

good luck with that

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I'm glad people are liking it, but this episode seemed very sloppy to me. Probably stuff most wouldn't notice but to me is sloppy filmmaking. Especially the background actors who were very clearly going through motions slowly trying not to make any noise (Dothraki skinning rabbit, stirring cookpot, blacksmith with Needle etc). And they even re-used shots of the Dothraki in two different scenes. Other cheats like Cat's hands getting sliced badly but in the next scene she's using them to scour the ground and deftly pick up one strand of hair. I guess it just lacks the grit of the books and I wonder how people who've never read the books will actually like it for all it's clunkiness.

I thought the riverside fight scene was extremely sloppy filmmaking.

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Check it out...Go to HBO.com, and check out HBO GO. It's a service that current HBO subscribers can access through their website. You can watch the episode online, and while the episode is playing, it has cool, informative information that you can view. Good for those that haven't read the books and may be a bit lost.Be sure to select, "watch with special features". As the episode plays out, it will introduce new characters on the right side of the screen, along with a little back story for each.

Sadly I cannot view these features. Because I have comcast it redirects me to their xfinity page and the special features aren't available. :wall:

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

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I know it's only episode 2 but I find myself impatient for them to explain a lot more and introduce us to some more characters. Boggles the mind how they are going to handle the jousting tournament and the many, many other characters that are first introduced there but aren't important until later on.

As a fan of the show who hasn't read the books, I think they have done well with the amount of characters, and anymore would be too much for the non book reading audience to follow along with (at least me). I have had to pull up the links posted in this thread earlier to HBO's viewer guide, etc. a few times to figure out what is going on.

and thank you for using the spoiler tags in here, I would hate to have the show messed up by reading some stuff that happens later in the series.

We are about to get to King's Landing and Court as well as the Wall and Castle Black and will get a whole new batch of characters introduced.

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

:eek: interesting theory

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Interesting, but what kind of clues? Most of the birth talk about him is how Tywin's wife died giving birth and he has the blonde hair of the Lannisters and if Tywin suspected that at all, Tyrion would've been killed outright as soon as he found out. Is it the two eye colors that makes you think this? I'm fully prepared for the R+L=J birth scenario which would be amuch better way to introduce a strong King candidate, but this indeed seems crackpot. Maybe there's a thread about your theory on the other website, I'll take a look. That just seems out there.

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Interesting, but what kind of clues? Most of the birth talk about him is how Tywin's wife died giving birth and he has the blonde hair of the Lannisters and if Tywin suspected that at all, Tyrion would've been killed outright as soon as he found out. Is it the two eye colors that makes you think this? I'm fully prepared for the R+L=J birth scenario which would be amuch better way to introduce a strong King candidate, but this indeed seems crackpot. Maybe there's a thread about your theory on the other website, I'll take a look. That just seems out there.

Not to take anything away from Dingo's detective work, but he's not the only one who thinks Tyrion might be Aerys' kid. There have been several threads over at the ASOIAF forum through the years discussing it. Some of the most mentioned clues are Tyrion's interest in dragons, liking his bacon burnt, his deformity itself, that shock of white-blond hair.

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Interesting, but what kind of clues? Most of the birth talk about him is how Tywin's wife died giving birth and he has the blonde hair of the Lannisters and if Tywin suspected that at all, Tyrion would've been killed outright as soon as he found out. Is it the two eye colors that makes you think this? I'm fully prepared for the R+L=J birth scenario which would be amuch better way to introduce a strong King candidate, but this indeed seems crackpot. Maybe there's a thread about your theory on the other website, I'll take a look. That just seems out there.

Not to take anything away from Dingo's detective work, but he's not the only one who thinks Tyrion might be Aerys' kid. There have been several threads over at the ASOIAF forum through the years discussing it. Some of the most mentioned clues are Tyrion's interest in dragons, liking his bacon burnt, his deformity itself, that shock of white-blond hair.

I'll check it out in the other threads, but I must've just missed the hair bit. Curioser and curiouser. Does Tyrion himself know or suspect, do you think?

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Interesting, but what kind of clues? Most of the birth talk about him is how Tywin's wife died giving birth and he has the blonde hair of the Lannisters and if Tywin suspected that at all, Tyrion would've been killed outright as soon as he found out. Is it the two eye colors that makes you think this? I'm fully prepared for the R+L=J birth scenario which would be amuch better way to introduce a strong King candidate, but this indeed seems crackpot. Maybe there's a thread about your theory on the other website, I'll take a look. That just seems out there.

Not to take anything away from Dingo's detective work, but he's not the only one who thinks Tyrion might be Aerys' kid. There have been several threads over at the ASOIAF forum through the years discussing it. Some of the most mentioned clues are Tyrion's interest in dragons, liking his bacon burnt, his deformity itself, that shock of white-blond hair.

I'll check it out in the other threads, but I must've just missed the hair bit. Curioser and curiouser. Does Tyrion himself know or suspect, do you think?

I don't think he suspects. We've had a zillion Tyrion POV chapters and he's never that I can recall thought of anyone other than Tywin as his father. There are also counter-arguments to this theory such as the fact that Tywin allowed him to live and Jaime's conversation with his aunt in AFFC. She tells Jaime that Tyrion is Tywin's son, not Jaime. Some take that literally, some take it as her speaking metaphorically that Tyrion is more like Tywin than Jaime, and some think that's she's just wrong and Tyrion really IS Aerys' kid.

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Interesting, but what kind of clues? Most of the birth talk about him is how Tywin's wife died giving birth and he has the blonde hair of the Lannisters and if Tywin suspected that at all, Tyrion would've been killed outright as soon as he found out. Is it the two eye colors that makes you think this? I'm fully prepared for the R+L=J birth scenario which would be amuch better way to introduce a strong King candidate, but this indeed seems crackpot. Maybe there's a thread about your theory on the other website, I'll take a look. That just seems out there.

Not to take anything away from Dingo's detective work, but he's not the only one who thinks Tyrion might be Aerys' kid. There have been several threads over at the ASOIAF forum through the years discussing it. Some of the most mentioned clues are Tyrion's interest in dragons, liking his bacon burnt, his deformity itself, that shock of white-blond hair.

I hope I am wrong as I think it really detracts from the Tyrion/Tywin characters and relationship. If you look at the description of Dany's unborn child in AGoT and The Red Viper's description of infant Tyrion's rumored appearance in ASoS, they are pretty similar. A lizard like baby with tail fangs claws and wings. I do not think Tyrion has any idea but Tywin may have known or suspected. His last words are "You are no son of mine" again this can be taken literally or figuratively.A Dance with Dragons is historically speaking a civil war among Targaryens. This may or may not be the reference in the title of the next book but I expect more, real or false, Targs before the thing is done.

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I'm reading too many spoilers now. I need to take a step back and enjoy the show. Maybe I read the books after season 1 is over.

Sorry probably a better place for this conversation. Watch or read without spoiling anything for yourself. It is a much better experience that way. There will be plenty of time to delve into crackpot theories after you read them all and you are waiting for the next book.My apologies if I ruined anything.

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I'm reading too many spoilers now. I need to take a step back and enjoy the show. Maybe I read the books after season 1 is over.

Sorry probably a better place for this conversation. Watch or read without spoiling anything for yourself. It is a much better experience that way. There will be plenty of time to delve into crackpot theories after you read them all and you are waiting for the next book.My apologies if I ruined anything.
Not at all! It's my fault if I cannot resist the temptation. I find it making the series more interesting before even seeing anything new.

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate. I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Wow, that would be interesting.

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.

(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.

OK . . . So Jamie Lannister is who physically killed the former king (Aerys?? who is the father of the blonde's across the sea, correct?) and then somehow Robert became king? What happened to Tywin?
Jamie was part of Robert's Rebellion as Stark, Lannister and Baratheon (among others) houses teamed up. Jamie was in the Kingsguard (Aerys' personal bodyguards) and slit Aerys' throat as the Stark/Baratheon hordes were descending on King's Landing. Afterwards, Robert married Cersei to join those two houses. Robert's bride to be was Eddard's sister who died after she was abducted by the Mad King's son, Prince Rhaegar, which actually kicked off the rebellion. Robert took Jon Arryn (his and Ned's mentor as mentioned last night) as his Hand, whose recent death has set in motion the story. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock, his house's castle in Lannisport and is one of the four great Lords of the realm.

That's pretty close, might be off a bit but I am trying not to let any further info leak out from later in the books, nor emphasize anything that might become more important later.

One small point here; the Lannisters weren't really part of the rebellion. They were Targaryen bannermen and didn't answer when the call came, but they stayed out of it altogether until the issue was all but decided with Robert's defeat of Rhaegar at the Trident. Then Tywin rode to King's landing with his army and convinced Aerys he had come to help him hold it against Robert's armies. Aerys admitted the Lannister troops and they proceeded to sack King's Landing. Jaime was still at Aerys' side at that point, as Aerys sent him to kill Tywin once the sacking had begun.

Edited by parrot

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So...was the old scary dude who just stared at Sansa the henchman for Joffrey, who had his tongue ripped out?

Is your question "who is he"? He's Ser Ilyn Payne, the royal executioner. He's not a henchman of Joffrey's, he serves the King (both Robert now and Aerys the Mad King that Robert overthrew) as the official beheader of the realm.
Actually he was the captain of the Lannister guards during The Mad King's reign not the King's Justice. He is/was a Lannister lackey/bannerman.

(Why he lost his tounge is a matter for some crack pot theory of mine) The stated reason is that Ilyn bragged that Tywin Lannister (Father to the Lannister siblings we have et) actually ruled the kingdom (when Tywin was Hand) and that Aerys did what Tywin wanted. Aerys found out and removed Ilyn's tounge.

OK . . . So Jamie Lannister is who physically killed the former king (Aerys?? who is the father of the blonde's across the sea, correct?) and then somehow Robert became king? What happened to Tywin?
Jamie was part of Robert's Rebellion as Stark, Lannister and Baratheon (among others) houses teamed up. Jamie was in the Kingsguard (Aerys' personal bodyguards) and slit Aerys' throat as the Stark/Baratheon hordes were descending on King's Landing. Afterwards, Robert married Cersei to join those two houses. Robert's bride to be was Eddard's sister who died after she was abducted by the Mad King's son, Prince Rhaegar, which actually kicked off the rebellion. Robert took Jon Arryn (his and Ned's mentor as mentioned last night) as his Hand, whose recent death has set in motion the story. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock, his house's castle in Lannisport and is one of the four great Lords of the realm.

That's pretty close, might be off a bit but I am trying not to let any further info leak out from later in the books, nor emphasize anything that might become more important later.

One small point here; the Lannisters weren't really part of the rebellion. They were Targaryen bannermen and didn't answer when the call came, but they stayed out of it altogether until the issue was all but decided with Robert's defeat of Rhaegar at the Trident. Then Tywin rode to King's landing with his army and convinced Aerys he had come to help him hold it against Robert's armies. Aerys admitted the Lannister troops and they proceeded to sack King's Landing. Jaime was still at Aerys' side at that point, as Aerys sent him to kill Tywin once the sacking had begun.

Yeah, I just didn't want to get too detailed, though that's a worthwhile distinction. Not sure why this is a spoiler topic though. I'm sure most of you have noticed but in the title opening they have a lot of murals of a stag and direwolf and I think a lion all attacking a dragon. Just a part of the detail they put into the background, especially if the painting behind Viserys in ep 1 is the Doom of Valyria. Too bad the director of the first two episodes has kinda sucked. Send in Michael Rymer from BSG, ASAP!!! (he was the exec director and did most of the season premieres and finales as well as most of the canon eps for BSG, he blows away Tim Van Patten, who thus far sucks).

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What's your crackpot theory?

Preface to say that I hope I am wrong about this but...

I believe that in his position as captain of the Lannister guards that Ilyn Payne was privy to the secrets of their House and that he lost his tongue to keep him from ever speaking about one of them in particular, we find out in AFfC that he is illiterate.

I believe that Ilyn knows that Aerys Targaryen is Tyrion's father and not Tywin Lannister. This would mean that Tyrion has as good if not a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone alive.

There are many clues that Tyrion is of Targaryen blood spread throughout the books.

Interesting, but what kind of clues? Most of the birth talk about him is how Tywin's wife died giving birth and he has the blonde hair of the Lannisters and if Tywin suspected that at all, Tyrion would've been killed outright as soon as he found out. Is it the two eye colors that makes you think this? I'm fully prepared for the R+L=J birth scenario which would be amuch better way to introduce a strong King candidate, but this indeed seems crackpot. Maybe there's a thread about your theory on the other website, I'll take a look. That just seems out there.

Not to take anything away from Dingo's detective work, but he's not the only one who thinks Tyrion might be Aerys' kid. There have been several threads over at the ASOIAF forum through the years discussing it. Some of the most mentioned clues are Tyrion's interest in dragons, liking his bacon burnt, his deformity itself, that shock of white-blond hair.

I hope I am wrong as I think it really detracts from the Tyrion/Tywin characters and relationship.

If you look at the description of Dany's unborn child in AGoT and The Red Viper's description of infant Tyrion's rumored appearance in ASoS, they are pretty similar. A lizard like baby with tail fangs claws and wings.

I do not think Tyrion has any idea but Tywin may have known or suspected. His last words are "You are no son of mine" again this can be taken literally or figuratively.

A Dance with Dragons is historically speaking a civil war among Targaryens. This may or may not be the reference in the title of the next book but I expect more, real or false, Targs before the thing is done.

And Tyrion's last words to Jamie in the dungeon of the Red Keep in AFfC was that he indeed did kill Jamie's "vile son". I don't think Tywin's last words were relevant other than a continuation of the disowning he gave to Tyrion his whole life. I've read the thread "Tyrion a Targaryen" on the Ice and Fire MB and quite frankly the best evidence I can see for it so far is that he likes his bacon charred. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but I think it's a very far-fetched idea. Maybe we'll find out in ADwD in July.

Edited by mad sweeney

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Yeah, I just didn't want to get too detailed, though that's a worthwhile distinction. Not sure why this is a spoiler topic though.

I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea that the Lannister's had done something selfless or noble. ;) I used spoiler tags just erring on the side of caution for those who may not want to learn too much of the history ahead of time and instead want to let it unfold. Of course if that's the case they probably should stay away from threads like this. :D

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