wiscstlatlmia

Bill Belichick

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I realize im only 21 and im probably biased to my generation...But this guy is unbelievable. Thoughts and opinions?

Edited by wiscstlatlmia

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Certainly in the conversation but my vote (admittedly biased) goes to Joe Gibbs. At 21, you will only remember his 2nd stint which was a mixed bag. But I grew up on the Skins of the 80s and the great 1991 season.

Gibbs won over 62% of his games, a mark that would have been higher had he not come out of retirement after 12 years, and over 70% of his playoff games. He went to 4 Super Bowls in 10 seasons winning 3.

He is the ONLY coach in NFL history to win a Super Bowl with 3 different QBs, none of whom where HOF caliber. He is largely credited with inventing the single back offense and was one of the best ever at making in game adjustments. Even though many think of him as a smash mouth coach, he was a very creative offensive mind who was Don "Air" Coryell's offensive coordinator. He directed what was at the time the highest scoring offense in NFL history in 1983 (now 3rd all time) and called the plays for the first offense to ever have 3 different WRs go over 1,000 yards in the same season.

There are plenty of coaches worthy of this discussion but I don't think any of them have a better resume than Joe Gibbs.

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Vince Lombardi

Lombardi's record in the post-season was 9–1, the only loss coming in the first of those games, the 1960 NFL Championship Game

/thread

Edited by bushisdaman

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I realize im only 21 and im probably biased to my generation...But this guy is unbelievable. Thoughts and opinions?

Best coach of your lifetime. That's good enough.

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cheating rules him out

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It's either him or Rich Kotite.

I have to agree with Rich Kotite.

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why? Just because he has won a bunch of games?

IMO, to be considered GOAT as a coach, there has to be some level of innovation - a lasting mark on the game. I'm not sure what Belichick's innovations are.

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why? Just because he has won a bunch of games?

IMO, to be considered GOAT as a coach, there has to be some level of innovation - a lasting mark on the game. I'm not sure what Belichick's innovations are.

:stalker::pics::penalty:

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He's in the discussion but not quite there yet.

Win another ring and maintain this win rate (70%) for a few more years and I don't see how he's not in there.

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I think he's in the upper tier with Lombardi and Walsh. With the exception of Tom Brady, he pretty much has a bunch of no names, some of them which he traded for from other teams, and some who were ineffective on other teams, and he brings them in and turns them into championship caliber. If you want to eliminate him for cheating (like Pete Rose is kept out of the HOF for gambling), that's ok. But there is no doubt his accomplishments are indisputable (as Pete Rose's are).

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I think he's in the upper tier with Lombardi and Walsh. With the exception of Tom Brady, he pretty much has a bunch of no names, some of them which he traded for from other teams, and some who were ineffective on other teams, and he brings them in and turns them into championship caliber. If you want to eliminate him for cheating (like Pete Rose is kept out of the HOF for gambling), that's ok. But there is no doubt his accomplishments are indisputable (as Pete Rose's are).

Apples to oranges. Rose violated rules on gambling as a manager. It had NOTHING to do with what he did as a player, which is what he should be in the HOF for. Belichick violated rules as a HC and in doing so could have gained an unfair competitive advantage. That's cheating. You can argue about how much of an advantage but if it didnt give him any advantage at all he wouldn't have done it. He's a pretty smart guy.

That said, I think he still belongs in the top teir for what he's accomplished. My top 2 teirs of coaches from the Super Bowl era would go something like this:

Lombardi, Walsh, Gibbs, Belichick

Noll, Shula, Landry, Parcells

Edited by VaTerp

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A few months back in the FFA I was trying to argue that Phil Jackson was a better alltime coach than Red Auerbach. One of the better arguments made against me was about coaching trees- Red had produced an number of excellent assistant coaches who became head coaches, while Phil really hasn't.

The assistant coaches that Belichick has produced are rather unremarkable, to say the least...

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I think Belichick is the best all-time at getting the most out of his players, of 'putting his players in position to excel.'

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I think Belichick is the best all-time at getting the most out of his players, of 'putting his players in position to excel.'

Sounds like a pretty fair argument to make.

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why? Just because he has won a bunch of games? IMO, to be considered GOAT as a coach, there has to be some level of innovation - a lasting mark on the game. I'm not sure what Belichick's innovations are.

Belichick has popularized the spread offence in the NFL. Before, teams would only occasionally come out with 4 WRs and almost never 5 WRs unless you were behind big and chasing the game. Also if you came out with 4 or 5 wide you were almost always going deep. Belichick started having the Pats use the 4 WR set as their base formation and run a lot of short slants, swing passes, WR screens etc. and also going 5 wide way, way more than any other team had previously, even in short yardage situations. Now every team in the NFL has an empty backfield 5 WR spread package and runs it in short yardage situations and in the red zone, which you never saw before, and several teams run a Pats-style spread as their base offense.Of course a big reason the spread is successful in the modern NFL is because of the tightening up of defensive holding and pass interference calls on DBs against WRs, which was partly brought in because Belichick teams were so brutally physical and got away with a lot of holding receivers, hitting receivers before the ball arrived and so on because they knew the officials weren't going to call it.I think that's one aspect that makes Belichick a great coach - his flexibility. He built his first Pats teams on brutal defense with Brady as a game manager, then when the rules were changed he completely shifted the philosophy and 2007 on the Pats have been all about offense with Brady airing it out. Most coaches have one way they think is the best way to win and stick to it but Belichick seems to me very pragmatic and adaptable.

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I realize im only 21 and im probably biased to my generation...But this guy is unbelievable. Thoughts and opinions?

I appreciate you mentioning your age. What I've noticed over the years is Sportsfan always wants the guy of their era to be the best of all time. Whether it was Joe Montana, Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. We as a sports society forget so easily all the great ones before us because we didn't really get to see them play.What you're witnessing is the greatest coach in this era. Whether he is better than Vince Lombardi or Paul Brown, how can we really prove that. If I had to say who is the greatest coach of all time I'd have to say Vince Lombardi.

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why? Just because he has won a bunch of games?

IMO, to be considered GOAT as a coach, there has to be some level of innovation - a lasting mark on the game. I'm not sure what Belichick's innovations are.

:stalker::pics::confused:
Nice use of smilies.

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why? Just because he has won a bunch of games? IMO, to be considered GOAT as a coach, there has to be some level of innovation - a lasting mark on the game. I'm not sure what Belichick's innovations are.

Belichick's greatness seems to be to get players who are no name type players, or veteran players and have them excel in his system. He's done it year after year. It's actually quite amazing.I don't even like the guy but how do you not just respect him. So he didn't invent the forward pass, big deal. He's probably done more with less than just about any coach in history, that why he's up close to the top of my list.

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I would consider him one of the best if he didn't cheat the sport....

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A few months back in the FFA I was trying to argue that Phil Jackson was a better alltime coach than Red Auerbach. One of the better arguments made against me was about coaching trees- Red had produced an number of excellent assistant coaches who became head coaches, while Phil really hasn't. The assistant coaches that Belichick has produced are rather unremarkable, to say the least...

:confused: This is why Walsh came to my mind.

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A few months back in the FFA I was trying to argue that Phil Jackson was a better alltime coach than Red Auerbach. One of the better arguments made against me was about coaching trees- Red had produced an number of excellent assistant coaches who became head coaches, while Phil really hasn't. The assistant coaches that Belichick has produced are rather unremarkable, to say the least...

:goodposting: This is why Walsh came to my mind.
Here is where I disagree. Bill Walsh ran a system. His best disciples followed that system, followed his lead, and were able to have success. Belichick doesn't have a system, he has a basic premise- smart, flexible players - he then uses their flexibility to create mismatches. He identifies those mismatches. He has had power offenses and spread offenses. He has had defenses with excellent linebackers, and poor linebackers. Other coaches in his tree fail because they try to act like him, but they simply aren't as smart as him. With Belichick, while it easy in hindsight to explain what he did, it is very difficult to predict what he will do. Few people had this New England team winning 10 games this year, and many had them out of the playoffs, behind the Jets and Miami.

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why? Just because he has won a bunch of games?

IMO, to be considered GOAT as a coach, there has to be some level of innovation - a lasting mark on the game. I'm not sure what Belichick's innovations are.

Belichick has popularized the spread offence in the NFL. Before, teams would only occasionally come out with 4 WRs and almost never 5 WRs unless you were behind big and chasing the game. Also if you came out with 4 or 5 wide you were almost always going deep. Belichick started having the Pats use the 4 WR set as their base formation and run a lot of short slants, swing passes, WR screens etc. and also going 5 wide way, way more than any other team had previously, even in short yardage situations. Now every team in the NFL has an empty backfield 5 WR spread package and runs it in short yardage situations and in the red zone, which you never saw before, and several teams run a Pats-style spread as their base offense.
what??

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The more you think about it, the more murky it gets.

People are criticized for ignoring eras they didn't witness, but you can flip it around and ask how anybody can sit and say Lombardi was the best when they have nothing more than stats and cliche to go on. Pro football was much more quaint back then, they were just barely removed from the times when teams would win because they wore cleats, etc. (I know that's a bit of an overstatement, but there's no question it wasn't what it is now).

The person who mentioned Gibbs illustrated that. In the 80's he was the king. When he came back, he was blown away. The game is like a science now.

Belichick is criticized for not producing a coaching tree. If Romeo Crennel had set the world on fire in Cleveland, would he or BB suddenly get credit for all those great Pats D's in the early 2000's? You can't even name NE assistants these days because BB likes to get young guys who are "clean slates" and receptive to his ideas, and won't butt heads with him (NE has the top scoring offense in football and they don't even have an offensive coordinator!) The moment assistants leave Belichick, they fail, the very latest being McDaniels. It's proof of Belichick's greatness, not the opposite.

To follow that, how many SBs has Parcells won without BB? How many has BB won without Parcells? But Parcells is so great because he produced this amazing coaching tree? Weird logic there.

BB is a CEO, he runs the whole organization. He's the reason they nail many of their DPs, he's the reason they always have a ton of them, he's the reason they don't overpay for people (which is huge, because that's a challenge unique to him. None of those other great coaches ever had to deal with the salary cap). His teams run completely different schemes based on who they're playing. I could go on.

You could say that the "greatest ever" argument itself is dumb, which is fair, but I don't see how you say anybody is better than Bill Belichick.

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I realize im only 21 and im probably biased to my generation...But this guy is unbelievable. Thoughts and opinions?

Well I'm a little more than twice your age and I would second your thoughts.

Game preparation and defensively taking away that "one thing" that opponents do well are his specialties.

Certainly gets the most out of his roster too. Having versatility throughout an NFL roster is probably pretty common. but being able to extract those talents and win ball games with them... rare.

And having Tom Brady doesn't hurt either! :goodposting:

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