Death of football? (1 Viewer)

The reason I think that's a weaker argument is because:

1. Contrary to what you said, most Americans haven't been exposed to soccer, at least not in a meaningful way. What percentage of people at an NFL or NCAA football game have ever sat through a complete English Premier League game? Probably a very small minority. They literally don't know what they're missing.

One of the main reasons why I think soccer is gaining momentum is precisely because exposure is finally increasing. Anyone can watch match highlights (or even pirated game broadcasts) on the internet. Fox is broadcasting occasional EPL matches. ESPN3 carries a wide variety of European matches. None of these things were around 10 years ago. 10 years ago, a casual soccer fan in America would've found it very difficult to watch the big leagues. That's not the case today.

2. Soccer has a demonstrated ability to spread. American football does not. There are dozens of professional soccer leagues. Virtually every country in the world has its own professional league. The sport, which (IIRC) originated in England, has spread to disparate places like Mexico, Turkey, Brazil, South Korea, and Ghana and become HUGE there. American football has demonstrated no such ability. Almost nobody around the globe plays it. The one major attempt to spread the game to a different continent (NFL Europe) failed.

Soccer appears to be the more viral sport.

There is a reason football rose with the expansion and proliferation of television, it is an AMAZING tv product. I think baseball in the "golden age" was really helped by its radio friendly nature, Football action fit so well in the frame, its easily processed in the angles its shot at, and most importantly, its gambling friendly.

That said, the expansion and proliferation of high def and mega TVs is a game changer for soccer. We don't have 19 inch square TVs, we now have 30-40 inch 16x9 televisions that really present the game in a way that makes sense. We are obsessed with the ball in America, which is fine, but so much of soccer is the set-up surrounding the ball. Much better processed on todays televisions. I don't know that this will make a difference, I don't know if it will make it exciting to the legions that are determined to call it "boring" (as if the standing around between NFL plays is exciting, boring is a frankly ignorant term to attach to sports that people don't understand). Time will tell.

Soccer needs to be as gambling friendly as the NFL is, which is really hard to do. I know it its not UNFRIENDLY, but Soccer isn't far removed from hockey (which I would think also might benefit from high def presentation for the same reasons as soccer), which never really inspired people gambling wise.

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

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Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

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My biggest beef with soccer.

'EBF said:

'cobalt_27 said:

And if they did, more than likely, they wouldn't care. Culturally, Americans will not embrace the sport.

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I guess that's where we disagree. Soccer is hugely popular in several nations that have similar cultures to the USA (Germany, England, Netherlands). It's popular almost everywhere. I would argue that most of the anti-soccer stuff is pure ignorance. I used to be the same way. I had a friend who liked the sport growing up and I gave him an endless stream of #### for it. Thing is, I had never watched great soccer teams play. If you haven't watched the best leagues and the best players, you don't really have a point of reference to engage in serious conversations about the sport. And frankly, most NFL/NCAA football fans don't have a clue about world soccer. So yea, it's boring...if you don't have a clue about the sport, if you've never watched the best leagues, and if your soccer watching experience is limited to MLS and the USA national team (which are the soccer equivalent of the CFL).

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So because you were ignorant that means everyone who doesn't like soccer is the same? Nah, I've seen a ton of games, world cup, EPL, Champions league, A league. Really don't enjoy it and I would rather spend 2 hours doing anything else.I think you have it backwards. Soccer is a very simple sport which can thrive in uneducated, poor communities. Football is really foreign to people outside North America. It needs a ton of equipment and has a lot of rules. It requires some time investment to understand what's happening. This is why you only see it growing in developed countries where people are educated.

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

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Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

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My biggest beef with soccer.

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Nah, that would just make them even more conservative. Better solution would be to make the goals bigger and drop 2 players

You guys are crazy and missing one of the main points in our society that is helping out soccer tremendously. what do more kids play now soccer or football? that has been standard since the late 90s... Not even to mention that Football is far to expensive to play for the rest of the world, how in the world are people going to afford all the things it takes to play football? . soccer is coming, its just a plain fact. It seems to be pretty clearly catching on where I live(Northeast). Do yourself a favor and check the sales of fifa in the US... you might be surprised.

I love football and I dont watch soccer at all... its just a clear fact, I'm sorry folks :(

'Truman said:

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

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Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

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My biggest beef with soccer.

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Nah, that would just make them even more conservative. Better solution would be to make the goals bigger and drop 2 players

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This is true. Teams would pull their defensive lines way back and just clear the ball long instead of trying to build up an attack out of the back.

Football and soccer both have huge issues with concussions. Not sure I'd let my kid play either one.

'Hoosier16 said:

'BeTheMatch said:

I used to hate soccer, but then I had to cover it for several years for my job, and once I learned more about the game, I was able to appreciate it much more. Now, I still don't sit around and watch much, but I do tune in to the World Cup - men and women's. And if it did start to become more popular, I could see getting into it. I mean, you watch those games over in Europe and South America and people are going crazy. Looks like fun to me.

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Watching the World Cup is like watching the Olympics. Everyone loves watching swimming, gymnastics, skiing, and track during the Olympics. Nobody is going to watch those sports on a weekly basis.

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I don't watch the Olympics, but I get your point.

There's a reason it's called povertyball. Real football getting overtaken in USA by that garbage? Lol.

I'd like to say that football isn't dying but with the ####ification of everything in America you can't rule it out.

'32 Counter Pass said:

Finally, coaches will stop coaching to "lead with your head" techniques in regards to blocking and tackling .

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No coach at any level is coaching their players to "lead with your head".

'EBF said:

USA national team (which are the soccer equivalent of the CFL).

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Stop that.

'Tick said:

'EBF said:

USA national team (which are the soccer equivalent of the CFL).

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Stop that.

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LOL its true... check out how many people from the US are on soccer powerhouses.

Soccer powerhouses is code for European teams that have limits and work permit obstacles for non-EU players.

How many Mexican players are on powerhouse teams? They still make the final 16 every World Cup.

'Spartans Rule said:

'Truman said:

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

Click to expand...

Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

Click to expand...

My biggest beef with soccer.

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Nah, that would just make them even more conservative. Better solution would be to make the goals bigger and drop 2 players

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This is true. Teams would pull their defensive lines way back and just clear the ball long instead of trying to build up an attack out of the back.

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It would certainly spread the game out over the whole field. The midfield line could no longer be used as a defender.

'wiscstlatlmia said:

You guys are crazy and missing one of the main points in our society that is helping out soccer tremendously. what do more kids play now soccer or football? that has been standard since the late 90s... Not even to mention that Football is far to expensive to play for the rest of the world, how in the world are people going to afford all the things it takes to play football? . soccer is coming, its just a plain fact. It seems to be pretty clearly catching on where I live(Northeast). Do yourself a favor and check the sales of fifa in the US... you might be surprised.I love football and I dont watch soccer at all... its just a clear fact, I'm sorry folks :(

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Once again, there is a huge difference between playing a sport and watching a sport.

'Tick said:

Soccer powerhouses is code for European teams that have limits and work permit obstacles for non-EU players.How many Mexican players are on powerhouse teams? They still make the final 16 every World Cup.

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Some of that has to do with qualifying. It's harder to qualify out of UEFA than it is out of CONCACAF or Oceania.The USA and Mexico would not qualify for every WC if they had to do so in Europe. The USA is not a bad team at this point, but we're not an elite team or a particularly entertaining team. I think casual fans would derive a lot more pleasure from watching Brazil or Spain play. You're just not going to get a lot of "wow" moments from most USA games.

This sounds like high school all over again. I remember how soccer was going to be huge in America when I played in the 80s, its probably slightly more popular now. I find it awful to watch and this is from someone who played for 10+ years.

Anyway my biggest problem is everyone telling me how we shouldn't play football because its dangerous. Sports are dangerous, its my choice to play so leave me alone. Just like it shouldn't be a law to wear a seat belt, if i'm dumb enough tonot wear one that's should be my decision.

'EBF said:

'Tick said:

Soccer powerhouses is code for European teams that have limits and work permit obstacles for non-EU players.How many Mexican players are on powerhouse teams? They still make the final 16 every World Cup.

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Some of that has to do with qualifying. It's harder to qualify out of UEFA than it is out of CONCACAF or Oceania.The USA and Mexico would not qualify for every WC if they had to do so in Europe. The USA is not a bad team at this point, but we're not an elite team or a particularly entertaining team. I think casual fans would derive a lot more pleasure from watching Brazil or Spain play. You're just not going to get a lot of "wow" moments from most USA games.

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hahaha right so basically the USA is like the Utah Jazz of soccer lol

'wiscstlatlmia said:

'EBF said:

'Tick said:

Soccer powerhouses is code for European teams that have limits and work permit obstacles for non-EU players.How many Mexican players are on powerhouse teams? They still make the final 16 every World Cup.

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Some of that has to do with qualifying. It's harder to qualify out of UEFA than it is out of CONCACAF or Oceania.The USA and Mexico would not qualify for every WC if they had to do so in Europe. The USA is not a bad team at this point, but we're not an elite team or a particularly entertaining team. I think casual fans would derive a lot more pleasure from watching Brazil or Spain play. You're just not going to get a lot of "wow" moments from most USA games.

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hahaha right so basically the USA is like the Utah Jazz of soccer lol

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Probably more like the Chicago Bears.

'belljr said:

This sounds like high school all over again. I remember how soccer was going to be huge in America when I played in the 80s, its probably slightly more popular now. I find it awful to watch and this is from someone who played for 10+ years.

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Ten years ago there was no YouTube, no ESPN3, no Fox Soccer Channel (I think), no EPL or Champions League on national American TV, and the FIFA video games were not as big in the USA as they are now. Access is a lot higher now. American kids can actually watch and emulate the best players in the world with ease. These are important developments.

This thread is turning very Timschochetian.

'BeTheMatch said:

'32 Counter Pass said:

The premise of this article assumes that there will be no action taken to reduce the concussion rate. We are already seeing the NFL take big steps towards addressing the problem with rule changes and using words like "defenseless" to change the manner in which the game is played. Like it or not, these rules are necessary to keep the game vital.

Second there will be advances in equipment to help address this issue. Helmets will be improved to better absorb shock. Finally, coaches will stop coaching to "lead with your head" techniques in regards to blocking and tackling .

All over this will permeate down to the college and high school levels.

More than anything else over-saturation of the product will cause a decline in popularity.

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No helmet in the world makes a difference in a lot of the collisions that cause concussions. It's a whiplash effect that can't be stopped by a helmet, no matter how great.

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You are right at the moment the technology doesn't exist, but I believe advances will be made in this area. And to muth pieces that will help absorb the whiplash effect.

'EBF said:

'belljr said:

This sounds like high school all over again. I remember how soccer was going to be huge in America when I played in the 80s, its probably slightly more popular now. I find it awful to watch and this is from someone who played for 10+ years.

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Ten years ago there was no YouTube, no ESPN3, no Fox Soccer Channel (I think), no EPL or Champions League on national American TV, and the FIFA video games were not as big in the USA as they are now. Access is a lot higher now. American kids can actually watch and emulate the best players in the world with ease. These are important developments.

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That doesn't matter at all. Just about every kid in the US was exposed to soccer at an early age. For many of us, it was the first organized sport we played. The lack of popularity has absolutely nothing to do with exposure to the sport. Just about every single one of us knows that soccer is the world's most popular sport. In the US, it will never beat out football or basketball. It may one day surpass baseball - but I have my doubts. I mean, would you rather watch highlights of Maradona and Ronaldo or Michael Jordan and Barry Sanders? All 4 of them are on YouTube and I can promise you that the latter have much more appeal than the former in the US.

A highlight video of a legend like Thierry Henry or Ronaldinho is just as impressive as a highlight video of a top athlete from any other sport. I don't think the game of soccer has inherently less appeal than sports like basketball and football. I just think some people are resistant to it in the USA because that's not the culture we were raised in. I was raised watching Ken Griffey Jr, Michael Jordan, and Jerry Rice. If you grew up surrounded by images of baseball, basketball, and football, then those are the sports you're going to adopt.

People have mentioned that they played soccer growing up. So did I, briefly. But how many of us grew up in a culture that foregrounded soccer? Soccer has never been part of mainstream American culture. Games were not regularly shown on TV until recently. Global icons like Cruyff and Pele had virtually no presence in American media. Without that visibility and social coercion, people aren't going to adopt the sport in mass numbers.

Those walls are crumbling down though thanks to changes in the media landscape. More cable channels offering high level soccer broadcasts and more streaming internet video = more Americans watching soccer. I see Chelsea, Barcelona, and Arsenal gear on a regular basis out here in San Francisco. The vast majority of young American athletes will still be funneled into sports that receive more media attention in the States, but the cracks in the dam are starting to spread just a little bit.

Basketball is a great model for what soccer could become in the USA. Much like MLS of today, the NBA was not a highly visible league 50 years ago. If in 1955 you told anyone that basketball would become a cultural institution in America, you probably would've been dismissed in a similar manner to what has happened in this thread. But...Wilt happened. Doctor J happened. Bird and Magic happened. And Nike and Michael Jordan took it to the next level. Now basketball is huge in the USA.

I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee the same trajectory for soccer, but it's certainly possible. Part of the problem with soccer in the USA is that it's perceived as an upper class game played by spoiled kids. Low income kids gravitate more towards basketball and football. In other parts of the world, soccer is the default game played by poor kids in the streets. If soccer can capture a bit of that demographic in the USA, it could grow immensely. It might take a Tiger Woods/Michael Jordan type of figure and an accompanying marketing blitz to make that a reality, but it is a definite possibility.

Anyhow...the trends for soccer in the USA are all pointing in one direction, and that's upwards. The game may never overtake football as the definitive sporting cultural institution in the USA, but it's here to stay, at least on a level of moderate relevance. I'm inclined to believe that far more radical shifts are possible considering what has happened with boxing, baseball, horse racing, and basketball in this country since the turn of the 20th century. The way things are today is probably not the way they will be 100 years from now.

Soccer has a lot of things going for it when it comes to a game that is easy to spread. The equipment needed is minimal. The rules are very simple. Literally anyone who can walk and kick can play it. It makes a lot of sense it would spread.

American football is a bit of a different beast. Yes you can play sandlot football with just a ball. But one is not likely to develop the skills necessary to play at a high level unless you have a program with equipment and coaches teaching you plays and technique.

American football is an extremely TV friendly game though. I don't have much doubt that if we took some societies at the level of the US, Europe, etc, that didn't know sport at all, and we introduced both, that American football would become the favored sport. But with how entrenched soccer is, and with the lack of facilities and equipment in many part of the world, I don't think it'll ever overtake soccer in the rest of the world. I also don't think soccer will come close to beating out football in the US. While lots of kids play soccer, they turn to other sports when they get older because those other sports are more appealing just based on the nature of the sport.

'EBF said:

I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee the same trajectory for soccer, but it's certainly possible. Part of the problem with soccer in the USA is that it's perceived as an upper class game played by spoiled kids. Low income kids gravitate more towards basketball and football.

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So, what do you make of this, given that it's a sport that naturally appeals to those with limited means, globally?Until the culture of soccer changes to break out of the image of a bunch of rich sissies running and flopping around, good luck getting kids from the projects to join in your quest to have soccer climb out of the US sports gutter.

'cobalt_27 said:

'EBF said:

I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee the same trajectory for soccer, but it's certainly possible. Part of the problem with soccer in the USA is that it's perceived as an upper class game played by spoiled kids. Low income kids gravitate more towards basketball and football.

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So, what do you make of this, given that it's a sport that naturally appeals to those with limited means, globally?Until the culture of soccer changes to break out of the image of a bunch of rich sissies running and flopping around, good luck getting kids from the projects to join in your quest to have soccer climb out of the US sports gutter.

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Its already happened to basketball. How many people have you heard complaining about how football is soft now because of the new rule changes?

'wiscstlatlmia said:

'cobalt_27 said:

'EBF said:

I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee the same trajectory for soccer, but it's certainly possible. Part of the problem with soccer in the USA is that it's perceived as an upper class game played by spoiled kids. Low income kids gravitate more towards basketball and football.

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So, what do you make of this, given that it's a sport that naturally appeals to those with limited means, globally?Until the culture of soccer changes to break out of the image of a bunch of rich sissies running and flopping around, good luck getting kids from the projects to join in your quest to have soccer climb out of the US sports gutter.

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Its already happened to basketball. How many people have you heard complaining about how football is soft now because of the new rule changes?

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2012 football is soft relative to the 70s, sure. But, compare apples to apples next time. Soccer has the sissification of its sport down to a science and on an entirely different level (even compared to basketball, which perhaps not coincidentally has been trending downward over the last decade). Bottom line, nobody in the US wants to the be the son of a "soccer mom." US males are not going to be attracted to the sport, unless the culture--and rules--change.

'cobalt_27 said:

'wiscstlatlmia said:

'cobalt_27 said:

'EBF said:

I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee the same trajectory for soccer, but it's certainly possible. Part of the problem with soccer in the USA is that it's perceived as an upper class game played by spoiled kids. Low income kids gravitate more towards basketball and football.

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So, what do you make of this, given that it's a sport that naturally appeals to those with limited means, globally?Until the culture of soccer changes to break out of the image of a bunch of rich sissies running and flopping around, good luck getting kids from the projects to join in your quest to have soccer climb out of the US sports gutter.

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Its already happened to basketball. How many people have you heard complaining about how football is soft now because of the new rule changes?

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2012 football is soft relative to the 70s, sure. But, compare apples to apples next time. Soccer has the sissification of its sport down to a science and on an entirely different level (even compared to basketball, which perhaps not coincidentally has been trending downward over the last decade). Bottom line, nobody in the US wants to the be the son of a "soccer mom." US males are not going to be attracted to the sport, unless the culture--and rules--change.

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O really? so the finals last year weren't the highest viewed in 14 years?US males? o boy...

'wiscstlatlmia said:

'cobalt_27 said:

'wiscstlatlmia said:

'cobalt_27 said:

'EBF said:

I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee the same trajectory for soccer, but it's certainly possible. Part of the problem with soccer in the USA is that it's perceived as an upper class game played by spoiled kids. Low income kids gravitate more towards basketball and football.

Click to expand...

So, what do you make of this, given that it's a sport that naturally appeals to those with limited means, globally?Until the culture of soccer changes to break out of the image of a bunch of rich sissies running and flopping around, good luck getting kids from the projects to join in your quest to have soccer climb out of the US sports gutter.

Click to expand...

Its already happened to basketball. How many people have you heard complaining about how football is soft now because of the new rule changes?

Click to expand...

2012 football is soft relative to the 70s, sure. But, compare apples to apples next time. Soccer has the sissification of its sport down to a science and on an entirely different level (even compared to basketball, which perhaps not coincidentally has been trending downward over the last decade). Bottom line, nobody in the US wants to the be the son of a "soccer mom." US males are not going to be attracted to the sport, unless the culture--and rules--change.

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O really? so the finals last year weren't the highest viewed in 14 years?US males? o boy...

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I just wanted to throw in my two cents after reading through the entire thread. I don't intend to quote anyone particular and am referencing several particular pieces of information that were put into this thread. I am a male parent. I loved playing SOCCER as a kid and younger adult, however as I've grown I find the game a bit boring to watch on tv. I now watch american football and basketball. I will always love the game, to play. One of the biggest things I dislike about soccer, even though I grew up playing it, is that an opportunistic goal can have one team defeat another when it's clearly been the lesser all game. I guess you could make the case for basketball and football. But there are more points and several opportunities for the teams to separate themselves to win. The second biggest gripe is the flopping. Perhaps it's just the American brutality that i've grown up with through football. I am a younger middle class american at the current state. I consider soccer to be a sport that middle to higher class Americans play. The higher the class the more likely the chance the child will be introduced to the game in the america's. In other developing countries it is only the opposite. Through television I've been given the perception that this game is simplistic in rules and equipment enough that children of very very little (balls made of yarn and trash bags, etc) can play.

There were several other points I wanted to touch on but have run out of time. I also didn't structure this reply as much as I would have liked. Regardless, I didn't necessarily wanted anyone to reply to me directly. I just wanted to throw my response in.

OH! One last point. There are some great soccer players of the last twenty years (i don't even know their names) that I'm sure have made some spectacular plays that I don't even care about only because I didn't grow up in a society where soccer was a highlighted sport. I recognize Jordan, Bird, Magic, Montana, "The Catch", Jerry Rice, only because they were recognized sports.

I have an 11 year old boy who has played flag football for a few seasons. Jr. High football is coming up and we're not sure if he'll play for a few reasons.

1. It's now a "Pay to Play" sport, and is an expensive one to boot.

B. He WILL get hurt

and 3. He's just not big and fast enough to be the one dealing out the punishment.

I don't know whether the concussion issue will actually sound the death knell for football or not, especially as the viewing public loves its gladiatorial spectacles and there is so much emotional attachment to the major pro and college teams. But as a participatory sport, football is pretty exclusive and that's where soccer has an enormous edge.

Size matters in American football and, because of cost, there's little opportunity to play once one is finished with high school or college ball. The game of soccer allows someone like the diminutive Messi to become a global star because of his skills and can also be easily played well into one's post-school years. The English football league goes 24 levels deep, according to Wiki, and has 7,000 teams in a country a quarter our size. That means that a lot of average Joes are playing every week and that helps make the roots very deep indeed. We're probably raising a generation of kids who will be playing soccer into their 30s while probably still enjoying the NFL on television or in person. The two aren't mutually exclusive. But one sport has probably plateaued and is facing a serious medical challenge while the other grows with a virtually unlimited ceiling.

I like the suggestions for rule tweaks that I've seen. We could probably do a whole separate thread on that.

EBF is being obtuse here...whether on purpose or not, I don't know.

There is a reason that Soccer is so prolific in all of those regions that you stated - the low entry costs to start up a game. As opposed to youth football, all you need is a ball and a couple of Nets (or a blocked off area if you can't get the nets). This leads to the early adoption of the sport by communities that are less well off than others or possibly do not have access to some higher-price sports accessories. This early adoption in these communities obviously leads to greater fandom of the sport in general in those countries.

As far as the availability of viewing the highest level of Soccer on television? The world cup has been televised for at least 30 years, I am sure (being conservative in that estimate, probably a lot longer than that). Are you trying to claim that the best matches in the world are not there?

OK, so I'm taking the angle outside of the physicality of soccer versus the college/NFL football game.

I always thought the reason soccer never took off in the US was due to advertising opportunities during games. There are constant opportunities in MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL games for commercial advertising during play stoppages. This is the reason you don't see jerseys that look like NASCAR stock cars in any of our Big 4 sports. You don't have that in soccer. It's literally half time for ad spots, and huge ads on the front of team jerseys and against the wall of the field, that's it. With that said, I don't see an incentive for networks to push soccer over the MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL in terms of the amount of advertising that they will derive from getting the broadcast rights to games. I feel like networks are taking a huge hit from that perspective in the US to push soccer versus the other Big 4 sports, which is why it hasn't and probably won't overtake any of our Big 4 sports any time in the near future. Soccer purists will not like this argument, as it doesn't really address the quality of the sport or how much fun it is to watch (I definitely enjoy top quality soccer on occasion), but I think the above is the "behind closed doors" business aspect of why soccer struggles to emerge in the US market.

Then there's the whole "money to be made" aspect of the argument for the players. The sport would have to emerge here to get top talent youth away from the other Big 4 sports to build a base of players that rivals international club teams. Top international players stand to make obscene amounts of money, but for the most part it's not in this country (save Beckham, which is an investment in growing the sport in the US). I watched an Everton game a few weeks ago, and noticed Donovan and Thomas were on the same EPL team (I admittedly don't follow too closely). Until the first paragraph is addressed and you get top American players playing in this country, as well as international players being drawn to play in the US market, it's going to be hard to deliver something that networks have an incentive to push to the viewing public in line with the first paragraph. Right now, you're getting up at 7am to watch top talent in the foreign markets, if it's even being televised.

Basically this sport won't emerge in the US until you figure out a way to get networks to televise a US branded game over the other Big 4 sports, and that would come from offering a product with top tier talent to rival the international leagues at the expense of the same US talent pursuing our Big 4 sports at a youth level at times of the day when people can conveniently watch the sport. I think that's too much to ask for as per the above in at least the short to intermediate term future.

'cstu said:

'EBF said:

Football will never be big anywhere besides the USA. Talk to any foreigner. They find the game strange. Nevermind the health issues.

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The NFL is pretty popular in Australia.

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i post on an americentric board that has quite a few euro posters. many follow nfl quite extensively and it gains new observers every year. many americans have developed a strong interest in soccer too, and the epl thread is one of the biggest. sports fans like sports.

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

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Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

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My biggest beef with soccer.

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would be terrible without offsides. teams would pack their defensive area esp with a lead.

'cvnpoka said:

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

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Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

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My biggest beef with soccer.

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would be terrible without offsides. teams would pack their defensive area esp with a lead.

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Isn't that a strategy with offsides as well? Why would that only occur without offsides?

'Hoosier16 said:

'cvnpoka said:

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

Click to expand...

Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

Click to expand...

My biggest beef with soccer.

Click to expand...

would be terrible without offsides. teams would pack their defensive area esp with a lead.

Click to expand...

Isn't that a strategy with offsides as well? Why would that only occur without offsides?

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It would be much worse.

'identikit said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'cvnpoka said:

'cstu said:

'Hoosier16 said:

'roadkill1292 said:

Things change. It's not written anywhere in the constitution that soccer rules can't be tweaked to make it more interesting. If we did that to make it more palatable to American tastes and the rest of the world doesn't want to come along for the ride, well, we're used to that already.

Click to expand...

Getting rid of offsides would be a great start.

Click to expand...

My biggest beef with soccer.

Click to expand...

would be terrible without offsides. teams would pack their defensive area esp with a lead.

Click to expand...

Isn't that a strategy with offsides as well? Why would that only occur without offsides?

Click to expand...

It would be much worse.

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Why?

If anything kills my interest in football it is the lack of flow. With replays and commercials, we spend more time waiting then watching. In the span of a 3.5 hour game, there is only about 15 minutes of actual action. The rest is filler, commercials, and the over analysis of a slow-mo replay. People might say soccer is boring, but at least there is actually 90 minutes of play and extended periods without commercials.

'Ilov80s said:

If anything kills my interest in football it is the lack of flow. With replays and commercials, we spend more time waiting then watching. In the span of a 3.5 hour game, there is only about 15 minutes of actual action. The rest is filler, commercials, and the over analysis of a slow-mo replay. People might say soccer is boring, but at least there is actually 90 minutes of play and extended periods without commercials.

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As an avid NFL fan, I will argue WITH your point. A friend of my mine is strictly NHL. I barely watch the sport but swears to me that the action is so much more none stop. The NFL could use some rule changes to make it more fluid. Unfortunately, this would most likely lead to uncoordinated offensive series and "4 and outs". A more boring game where each team was punting the ball back and forth and gaining little leverage.

Both my girls played soccer and as a sports lover I have tried to embrace the game for many years..just can`t do it. To me the only way I will watch a soccer game is if I know someone who is actually playing, or it is the USA in a final match of some sort. Even then it is a struggle. I would actually watch an NBA game before soccer.

The consensus among soccer fans here seems to be that the highest level of play exists in leagues outside the U.S. Call me a xenophobe, but I have no interest in watching foreign leagues. Maybe, one day, if local leagues can attract and keep premier homegrown talent I'll start caring more. Otherwise I can't see how I'll have a rooting interest for anyone.

'Da Guru said:

Both my girls played soccer and as a sports lover I have tried to embrace the game for many years..just can`t do it. To me the only way I will watch a soccer game is if I know someone who is actually playing, or it is the USA in a final match of some sort. Even then it is a struggle. I would actually watch an NBA game before soccer.

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Exactly. Now EBF and the others would say, "Well, you just don't understand the game." They'll go on to patronize you with a pat on the head and say, "but it's not you're fault because you simply weren't exposed to the game enough." Needless to say, and it's evident throughout this thread, there's a huge inferiority complex among US soccer fans because the sport is so marginalized here. But, soccer will never take off in the US. It's culturally incompatible with what the vast majority of folks here want from a sport. Even if there was more recognition with elite players being brought up in the US (good luck with that), it still is a viewed a sport mostly for flopping sissies that is completely devoid of scoring, let alone scoring opportunities, and there is the perceived issue of randomness that goes along with the low baseline events (i.e., scoring).

'cobalt_27 said:

'Da Guru said:

Both my girls played soccer and as a sports lover I have tried to embrace the game for many years..just can`t do it. To me the only way I will watch a soccer game is if I know someone who is actually playing, or it is the USA in a final match of some sort. Even then it is a struggle. I would actually watch an NBA game before soccer.

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Exactly. Now EBF and the others would say, "Well, you just don't understand the game." They'll go on to patronize you with a pat on the head and say, "but it's not you're fault because you simply weren't exposed to the game enough." Needless to say, and it's evident throughout this thread, there's a huge inferiority complex among US soccer fans because the sport is so marginalized here. But, soccer will never take off in the US. It's culturally incompatible with what the vast majority of folks here want from a sport. Even if there was more recognition with elite players being brought up in the US (good luck with that), it still is a viewed a sport mostly for flopping sissies that is completely devoid of scoring, let alone scoring opportunities, and there is the perceived issue of randomness that goes along with the low baseline events (i.e., scoring).

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You have expressed what I've been thinking and have done so much better than I would have been able to. Hopefully were still able to move back to the original threads intent, and that's the possibility of the 'Death of football'. I think the only possibility would be moving to a sport that has strong national influence already. I suspect basketball. And it would go recognize the problems we've outlined already.

[*]Marginalized

[*]Flopping Sissies (lol) less Vlade Divac's

[*]Culturally compatible - strength and endurance

[*]Elite Player Recognition - Jordan, Magic, Bird, touches on all flavors

[*]Scoring - this is constant - different styles, systems, persons

There is room for players who are slightly undersized. Jeremy Lin. But that room is very thin. Jeremy lin is 6' even and 200 lbs. I guess to play in anything but the NBA...over seas is the only option. But that is the US culture. Bigger. Faster. Stronger. It's who we are.

'cobalt_27 said:

Needless to say, and it's evident throughout this thread, there's a huge inferiority complex among US soccer fans because the sport is so marginalized here. But, soccer will never take off in the US. It's culturally incompatible with what the vast majority of folks here want from a sport. Even if there was more recognition with elite players being brought up in the US (good luck with that), it still is a viewed a sport mostly for flopping sissies that is completely devoid of scoring, let alone scoring opportunities, and there is the perceived issue of randomness that goes along with the low baseline events (i.e., scoring).

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This all sounds great, but it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. All of the statistics show that the sport is growing in popularity in the US and that the audience is growing. Growth has been particularly large amount the young male demographic, who will play a key role in determining the sporting future of this country.

U.S. viewership of the UEFA Champions League Final has exploded in recent years. This is the seventh straight year that English-language viewing of the Champions League Final has increased in the U.S. Over the last 10 years, viewing has increased almost 10-fold, from 264,000 viewers on ESPN in 2002 to 2.6 million on FOX this year.Soccer continues to draw an impressively young audience. Saturday’s match earned a 1.8 among Men 18-34 on FOX, which is +29% higher than the HH rating. It’s exceptionally rare for a sports event to be that much stronger among the younger demo than it is overall.

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So you can keep sitting here saying that soccer will never be huge in America. Meanwhile interest and audience keeps growing. I think I'll trust the statistical trends over the rantings of a biased guy on an NFL message board. In terms of soccer being culturally incompatible with what people want here from a sport, I think there's some truth to that. Toughness is valued in the USA. I think a lot of Americans take exception to the general level of pansiness in the Spanish league. But different leagues highlight different styles of play. The German and English leagues, for example, play a style of soccer that would be more palatable to NFL fans (big, fast, and strong). The "Steelers" and "Packers" were created in an era when there were actually steelers and packers in the USA. We live in a different age. Even if you assume that soccer is incompatible with a blue collar working class culture (which I don't), you have to ask whether the US is actually still a blue collar working class culture. At any rate, you can site here and manufacture reasons why the sport will never be popular here, but the signs continue to point upwards. How do you explain that? The reality is that elite level soccer can be a very entertaining sport. Many (not all) sports fans who give it a legitimate chance will develop an appreciation for it. Thus as exposure increases, so too will viewership and interest.

'EBF said:

This all sounds great, but it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. All of the statistics show that the sport is growing in popularity in the US and that the audience is growing...

U.S. viewership of the UEFA Champions League Final has exploded in recent years. This is the seventh straight year that English-language viewing of the Champions League Final has increased in the U.S. Over the last 10 years, viewing has increased almost 10-fold, from 264,000 viewers on ESPN in 2002 to 2.6 million on FOX this year.

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Despite the popularity increase, it still is a marginal sporting event. You're talking about the same number of people that watched the World Series of Poker on ESPN last year.

'cobalt_27 said:

'EBF said:

This all sounds great, but it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. All of the statistics show that the sport is growing in popularity in the US and that the audience is growing...

U.S. viewership of the UEFA Champions League Final has exploded in recent years. This is the seventh straight year that English-language viewing of the Champions League Final has increased in the U.S. Over the last 10 years, viewing has increased almost 10-fold, from 264,000 viewers on ESPN in 2002 to 2.6 million on FOX this year.

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Despite the popularity increase, it still is a marginal sporting event. You're talking about the same number of people that watched the World Series of Poker on ESPN last year.

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Nobody is disputing this, but we're not talking about which sports are the most popular right now. We're talking about the future. And if soccer keeps getting bigger every year then that would seem to be an important data point. Poker has not been growing in popularity lately. Quite the opposite.

'EBF said:

'cobalt_27 said:

'EBF said:

This all sounds great, but it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. All of the statistics show that the sport is growing in popularity in the US and that the audience is growing...

U.S. viewership of the UEFA Champions League Final has exploded in recent years. This is the seventh straight year that English-language viewing of the Champions League Final has increased in the U.S. Over the last 10 years, viewing has increased almost 10-fold, from 264,000 viewers on ESPN in 2002 to 2.6 million on FOX this year.

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Despite the popularity increase, it still is a marginal sporting event. You're talking about the same number of people that watched the World Series of Poker on ESPN last year.

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Nobody is disputing this, but we're not talking about which sports are the most popular right now. We're talking about the future. And if soccer keeps getting bigger every year then that would seem to be an important data point. Poker has not been growing in popularity lately. Quite the opposite.

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Over the last 10 years (the same metric you're using), there has not been a growth in poker viewership? I'm pretty sure over the same 10 year span, more people here would be able to rattle of more names of the top poker players than they could soccer players. And, I'm not at all contending that poker is going to take over the hearts of the US. I'm just illustrating that growth is one thing, but extrapolating from that by predicting future growth and turning a blind eye to the factors that will limit that growth over time is just naive. There are reasons poker, for how incredibly successful it has been as a TV commodity over the past 10 years or so, will never be on the same map as other sports/entertainment options. For the same reasons (that you seem incapable of understanding), the US will not embrace soccer on anything close to the same level as the NFL, MLB, NBA, NASCAR, or even the NHL. Hell, I doubt it will even overtake the Master's or the US Open in terms of popularity in my lifetime.