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*** Official 2012 Boston Red Sox Thread *** (2 Viewers)

david price is a monstah in the playoffs!!!  very happy for him.  hell of a call by cora to roll with him tonight

:pickle:

sox win!!  f machado!  lets do it again next year!!

 
Was thinking of taking out a separate thread for its excellence, but was watching a doc on Ted Williams tonight and thought of this. One of the finest sportswriter moments in history. Plus, Updike wrote Rabbit, Run, which I also think Eminem was paying attention to when he wrote the same title with a similar theme. On one of the greatest B-SIdes in history. True story.  

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1960/10/22/hub-fans-bid-kid-adieu

 
I still remember watching the stupid MLB Top 10 Shortstops before this season and seeing Xander get almost no respect at all. They conveniently forgot that he got hit in the hand and his hitting suffered. Guys like Andrus, Beckham and Segura were all rated much higher. I was watching it saying "Xander is going to prove you idiots wrong!".

Watching him hit 5 doubles in the first 3 games en route to a great season was great! Next year they might even have him in the top 10, maybe.  :rolleyes:

 
Mr. Mojo said:
I still remember watching the stupid MLB Top 10 Shortstops before this season and seeing Xander get almost no respect at all. They conveniently forgot that he got hit in the hand and his hitting suffered. Guys like Andrus, Beckham and Segura were all rated much higher. I was watching it saying "Xander is going to prove you idiots wrong!".

Watching him hit 5 doubles in the first 3 games en route to a great season was great! Next year they might even have him in the top 10, maybe.  :rolleyes:
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Chili Davis almost ruined Xantastic. Hopefully, with a season together behind them, JDMart can show him how to turn on the ball consistently without losing his natural center-right stroke as he has done. If so, watch out.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
3 of 4 from the evil empire.  sale still sucks.  who are they gonna pick up at deadline?  diaz?
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Looks like no dice on Diaz per Alex Speier I don't think they have the prospects to get a big name. I do think they will get someone though, a Daniel Hudson type maybe. :popcorn:  

 
DA RAIDERS said:
3 of 4 from the evil empire.  sale still sucks.  who are they gonna pick up at deadline?  diaz?
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Mets said to want Andrew Benintendi in return, in which case I am fine saying no to getting Diaz. They will probably get a middle reliever or set up guy for a couple of deep minor league assets. In actuality, I don't think a bullpen arm will make that much difference. Over the course of the season, the starting pitching hasn't been great, so they have burned out the bullpen. Until the starters consistently can go deeper in games, the bullpen will be an issue as being overworked.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
:sadbanana:

i'm glad they didn't over pay for diaz, but would have liked to seen something
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Unfortunately, anyone the Sox would want to trade (or get off a contract from) wasn't exactly in high demand and any of the players teams would want they wouldn't want to give up. A simple statement applies here to the players . . . you've proven you can play at an elite level, so how about you start playing better?

They've spent a boatload of money on their rotation (which has been shaky) . . . which didn't leave them a lot of money left to invest in the bullpen (which has been overworked and inconsistent). They used up their trade assets to win last year and don't have many desirable prospects left in the farm system. They kind of made their bed and now have to lie in it.

Bottom line, adding a couple of average bull pen arms or a closer that could be a free agent probably wouldn't move the needle any for this year's team, and if it cost a young starting position player and their best minor leaguer to get a guy to come in and only pitch 30 innings doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

 
since there's no prospects in the system, would y'all have done Mookie for Syndegaard/Diaz? With Bogie & the Baby Bull hitting like we always hoped, would this deadline have been the time to dangle him? i dont like to get my hopes up, so i tried to think about this as little as possible b4 the deadline.

 
wikkidpissah said:
since there's no prospects in the system, would y'all have done Mookie for Syndegaard/Diaz? With Bogie & the Baby Bull hitting like we always hoped, would this deadline have been the time to dangle him? i dont like to get my hopes up, so i tried to think about this as little as possible b4 the deadline.
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Mookie is amidst a down year and is still one of the best in baseball. Untradeable. Moving him would only worsen the long term, although that is Dom's M.O.

 
MAC_32 said:
Mookie is amidst a down year and is still one of the best in baseball. Untradeable. Moving him would only worsen the long term, although that is Dom's M.O.
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well, the overwhelming sense around town is that he was insulted to have to arbitrate the last 2 yrs and will be insulted not to be offered Harper/Trout money (he wont) by the Sox and go wherever else the money is competitive to make that point, so he's in his last yr & a half in Beantown

 
MAC_32 said:
Mookie is amidst a down year and is still one of the best in baseball. Untradeable. Moving him would only worsen the long term, although that is Dom's M.O.
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At what point do you trade him when it becomes clear he won't be re-signing in Boston? Was it last off season? This trade deadline that just ended? This coming off season? Next year's trade deadline? It's highly unlikely the Sox will offer him the most money or the longest contract, and I don't think Mookie loves Boston. The writing is on the wall that he is getting the moving van gassed up . . .

 
Anarchy99 said:
At what point do you trade him when it becomes clear he won't be re-signing in Boston? Was it last off season? This trade deadline that just ended? This coming off season? Next year's trade deadline? It's highly unlikely the Sox will offer him the most money or the longest contract, and I don't think Mookie loves Boston. The writing is on the wall that he is getting the moving van gassed up . . .
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The bolded - if he really isn't re-signing.

 
MAC_32 said:
The bolded - if he really isn't re-signing.
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This is his fifth year as a starter and his WAR scores have been 5.9, 9.7, 6.4, 10.9, and projected out to 6.6 for this year. That averages out to a WAR of 7.9 per year. That's basically Top 5 in any given year for position players (if not better) and very good for anyone not named Trout.

Some so called experts have indicated that Mookie's body type won't lend itself to a long career as a peak producer. Too small in stature to have big power numbers. At 5'9", 180 lbs, some people have said he won't be able to hold up and will start getting dinged up soon. They claim he won't age well into his 30's and won't be worth a 10 year mega contract. Once his power numbers drop off, some people feel he will be a good to very good hitter, but his numbers as a single and doubles hitter at a corner outfield spot won't be worth anywhere near $35 or $40 million a year. (That's others talking, not me.)

I am not a huge fan of the uber expensive, multi year contracts, as they rarely work out on the back end. I can't speak to how well Mookie will age and what will happen to his numbers. But he will likely demand in the 10 year, $400 million range as a free agent. (Remember, Trout never hit free agency, so it's possible in a bidding situation that Betts could max out at a really high number.) The Red Sox will probably over him 8 years for $215 million and he will laugh at them. Boston should already know the situation they are in. I doubt he will take a hometown discount, especially if he doesn't really consider Boston his hometown (and if he feels like he has been underpaid to this point).

I like Mookie . . . but I don't know if he will be worth what he gets paid. But hey, it's not my money . . .

 
Then either trade him in December when you have more suitors and can more easily replace him. Or see if he will help you go on one last ride. Boston isn't a small market team after all. You can lose him for nothing and still buy replacements. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
This is his fifth year as a starter and his WAR scores have been 5.9, 9.7, 6.4, 10.9, and projected out to 6.6 for this year. That averages out to a WAR of 7.9 per year. That's basically Top 5 in any given year for position players (if not better) and very good for anyone not named Trout.

Some so called experts have indicated that Mookie's body type won't lend itself to a long career as a peak producer. Too small in stature to have big power numbers. At 5'9", 180 lbs, some people have said he won't be able to hold up and will start getting dinged up soon. They claim he won't age well into his 30's and won't be worth a 10 year mega contract. Once his power numbers drop off, some people feel he will be a good to very good hitter, but his numbers as a single and doubles hitter at a corner outfield spot won't be worth anywhere near $35 or $40 million a year. (That's others talking, not me.)

I am not a huge fan of the uber expensive, multi year contracts, as they rarely work out on the back end. I can't speak to how well Mookie will age and what will happen to his numbers. But he will likely demand in the 10 year, $400 million range as a free agent. (Remember, Trout never hit free agency, so it's possible in a bidding situation that Betts could max out at a really high number.) The Red Sox will probably over him 8 years for $215 million and he will laugh at them. Boston should already know the situation they are in. I doubt he will take a hometown discount, especially if he doesn't really consider Boston his hometown (and if he feels like he has been underpaid to this point).

I like Mookie . . . but I don't know if he will be worth what he gets paid. But hey, it's not my money . . .
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that's one of the reasons that the optimum time to trade him just passed - that he likely wont bring the money he thinks he's worth as a FA and, having already felt underappreciated in Boston, it's the last town he's going to take the mere market price from.

that, plus the Mets needing a star and having two guys on the market, Thor & Diaz, that combined are approximate to Mookie's value and fit the Sox needs like a glove, it seemed like kismet, but i never heard a peep in that direction

 
wikkidpissah said:
that's one of the reasons that the optimum time to trade him just passed - that he likely wont bring the money he thinks he's worth as a FA and, having already felt underappreciated in Boston, it's the last town he's going to take the mere market price from.

that, plus the Mets needing a star and having two guys on the market, Thor & Diaz, that combined are approximate to Mookie's value and fit the Sox needs like a glove, it seemed like kismet, but i never heard a peep in that direction
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Certainly there are a lot of components that go into any trade . . . do the pieces fit, what are the salaries for the players involves, how long would the teams have players under their control, are the players likely or unlikely to re-sign, etc.

In the trade you proposed, Mookie has averaged a WAR of roughly 8 per year. In Thor's healthy years, he's averaged a pitching WAR of 3.5. In 4 seasons, Diaz has averaged a WAR of 1.2 (and is actually in the negative range for this year). IMO, Boston would have needed to get a fair amount more than those two guys to trade Betts . . . which was never going to happen, seeing how the Mets wanted Andrew Benintendi for Diaz.

Put another way, adding together several decent pieces in exchange for a Top 5 position player isn't usually how it works. A trade involving Betts would need both current players and high level prospects IMO. This gets back to the timing element, as July 31 next year the Red Sox may be more motivated to off load Betts. And a contender might be more motivated to bring him in to get that team to the Word Series.

Who knows . . . if the free agent market for stars is tepid and no one is getting big dollars next off season, maybe Betts rethinks things and would welcome a return to Boston if he feels the Red Sox might give him more than if he were on the open market.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Certainly there are a lot of components that go into any trade . . . do the pieces fit, what are the salaries for the players involves, how long would the teams have players under their control, are the players likely or unlikely to re-sign, etc.

In the trade you proposed, Mookie has averaged a WAR of roughly 8 per year. In Thor's healthy years, he's averaged a pitching WAR of 3.5. In 4 seasons, Diaz has averaged a WAR of 1.2 (and is actually in the negative range for this year). IMO, Boston would have needed to get a fair amount more than those two guys to trade Betts . . . which was never going to happen, seeing how the Mets wanted Andrew Benintendi for Diaz.

Put another way, adding together several decent pieces in exchange for a Top 5 position player isn't usually how it works. A trade involving Betts would need both current players and high level prospects IMO. This gets back to the timing element, as July 31 next year the Red Sox may be more motivated to off load Betts. And a contender might be more motivated to bring him in to get that team to the Word Series.

Who knows . . . if the free agent market for stars is tepid and no one is getting big dollars next off season, maybe Betts rethinks things and would welcome a return to Boston if he feels the Red Sox might give him more than if he were on the open market.
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whatever - i guarantee that NY would have been the least willing partner in that negotiation, altho the lion's share is that Boston would be trading 1.5 years of Mookie for 3.5 yrs of Diaz & 2.5 of Thor. perhaps just as importantly though, is the Mets would be giving up on two dreams to Boston's one and perception is the largest portion of value in sports trading

 
Hi. I hate that I am putting a star on a ####ing Boston thread but why wouldn’t the Sox pay Mookie? Not like they haven’t thrown money around before and he’s amazing. 

 
Capella said:
Hi. I hate that I am putting a star on a ####ing Boston thread but why wouldn’t the Sox pay Mookie? Not like they haven’t thrown money around before and he’s amazing. 
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I think anarchy laid out a compelling case why it may not be a good idea, but I still struggle with the Boston component. They're the sort of team that can overcome a contract that eventually turns bad, so before Sunday I never even considered Mookie being moved. 

 
I get a Kawhi sense from Mookie, that he's an unusual cat who wants to see what else is out there for him. Boston loves Mookie but is very tough on its stars. Word is that he might not even stay for the ridiculous money but go to a more-accepting market where he can vibe. I'll bet anyone (for charity, of course) he leaves if not dealt beforehand.

 
Capella said:
Hi. I hate that I am putting a star on a ####ing Boston thread but why wouldn’t the Sox pay Mookie? Not like they haven’t thrown money around before and he’s amazing. 
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They threw money at Sale in a highly-criticized signing, so I can see where you'd think that. I think Anarchy did a pretty good job breaking down WAR and what he'll command on the open market. Those are some serious numbers he puts up, and I'm not sure they can really sign him with the money they've got tied up in other guys.

It's not like Henry and Werner and co. aren't averse to the luxury tax. They certainly are. And I keep reading reports that the farm is slim. So...

Maybe you put a star on the Boston thread to straight razz us when Tampa makes the playoffs and our beloved Mookie leaves after next year?

 
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rockaction said:
They threw money at Sale in a highly-criticized signing, so I can see where you'd think that. I think Anarchy did a pretty good job breaking down WAR and what he'll command on the open market. Those are some serious numbers he puts up, and I'm not sure they can really sign him with the money they've got tied up in other guys.

It's not like Henry and Werner and co. aren't averse to the luxury tax. They certainly are. And I keep reading reports that the farm is slim. So...

Maybe you put a star on the Boston thread to straight razz us when Tampa makes the playoffs and our beloved Mookie leaves after next year?
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Lol no. I mean if Mookie leaves that is a total breakdown on the front office. You have to move other guys to keep a player like that, especially at his age. If the Red Sox can’t keep a top-5 player who can?

 
Capella said:
I mean if Mookie leaves that is a total breakdown on the front office. You have to move other guys to keep a player like that, especially at his age. If the Red Sox can’t keep a top-5 player who can?
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I follow this really casually -- my relatives and nephew follow it in much more detail than I -- but your point seems incontrovertible.

How much is a single win above replacement these days worth by position, anyway?

See, I try and follow it, but it's like hockey. It seems to have passed me by. This is why my statistics-hating ### went back to school and took Intro to Prob/Stat at the local branch of UCONN around 2013 or 2014 (I forget). To try and understand exactly the following link. But it's still highly advanced, too advanced for me. I cry pauper. 

I try and read stuff like this https://tht.fangraphs.com/rethinking-the-win-curve/ and I shake my head for three reasons:

  1. It's a bit over my head, frankly
  2. I don't have nearly the data these guys writing the articles and in the front offices have
  3. If I had the data, then what? Doing regression analysis and the like? Forget it. See number one in this list. 
It's impossible for me to quantify this stuff as a layman. And I don't pooh-pooh it. It's very serious and almost infinitely worthy of serious, even devotional attention by the front offices. It just makes it a bit hard to follow at a cerebral level, that's all. 

 
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Capella said:
Lol no. I mean if Mookie leaves that is a total breakdown on the front office. You have to move other guys to keep a player like that, especially at his age. If the Red Sox can’t keep a top-5 player who can?
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The Sox say they will pay him, but a lot can change and we don't have all the details. If Mookie wants the sun and the moon, maybe Boston backs out. But they are saying the right things. The P.R. spin out there now is that they are willing to pay Mookie whatever he wants (even if they don't mean it). So at this stage, if he bails, it will fall on him.

Maybe Betts asks for a 10 year $450 million contract. Boston would be crazy to offer him that. Maybe they offer him him 8 years for $240 million. Betts might say no. Betts could turn around and say the Yankees offered him some crazy contract and then what? Maybe Betts gets hurt next year or his numbers take a dive. Way too many what ifs at this point.

 
Eephus said:
Chaim Bloom looks like a cross between Carl and Mike Yastrzemski
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Another Ivy leagueish analytics guy, looks like Ben Cherington part two. Funny how polarizing their GM philosophical swings have been Cherington to Dombrowski back to Bloom.  Assuming this is leading to a more cost conscious build from within philosophy. 

 
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Kraft... said:
Another Ivy leagueish analytics guy, looks like Ben Cherington part two. Funny how polarizing their GM philosophical swings have been Cherington to Dombrowski back to Bloom.  Assuming this is leading to a more cost conscious build from within philosophy. 
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They're a big market team with the expectations that come with that.  I can see them trying to duck under the CBT threshold for a year but I can't see the Sox committing to a lengthy rebuild or becoming more like the Rays than the Yankees.

 
Big offseason for Red Sox from a long term strategy approach. They need to make a huge offer to Betts and if he says no then they should look to trade him. If Betts won’t take the big deal, Sox should see if they can lock up Devers in a deal like Acuna and Jimenez signed.

They have some horrendous albatross contracts for pitchers yet their pitching is terrible. Not sure how they figure that out. 

 
Balco said:
Big offseason for Red Sox from a long term strategy approach. They need to make a huge offer to Betts and if he says no then they should look to trade him. If Betts won’t take the big deal, Sox should see if they can lock up Devers in a deal like Acuna and Jimenez signed.

They have some horrendous albatross contracts for pitchers yet their pitching is terrible. Not sure how they figure that out. 
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Health. . . . . . . hopefully  :oldunsure:

 
Some Sox news today , JD doesn’t opt out and this 

 Red Sox Sign Switch-Hitting 2-Way Player

the Boston Red Sox have reportedly signed Culture University’s 劉致榮 (Liu Chih-Jung) as an international free agent. The signing bonus for the 20-year-old switch-hitting two-way player is rumoured to be $700,000 to $1,000,000 USD at this stage. (Update: MLB announced it is $750,000 USD)

UDN reported the signing bonus is close to one million USD.

ETtoday reported it is between $700,000 to $750,000 USD.

Apple Daily reported it is above $725,000 USD.

Liberty Sports reported at least $750,000 USD.

Quick Profile of Liu Chih-Jung

DOB: April 7, 1999

Height/Weight: 183cm, 84kg

Right-Handed Pitcher / Switch Hitting (2B/SS)

Fastball sat at 150-155kph (93-96mph), topped out 158kph (98mph)

Changeup, slider around 130-135 (80-83mph)

Liu Chih-Jung Indirectly Confirmed the Signing

Although Liu Chih-Jung’s agency declined to comments on the signing, Liu, on the other hands, indirectly confirmed the Red Sox signing when speaking with the Taiwanese media.

“I’m glad I have the opportunity to play professional baseball overseas,” said Liu Chih-Jung. “There is also Lin Tzu-Wei in the organisation, he will look after me.”

Liu is currently training with the Taiwanese National Team in preparation for the upcoming WBSC’s Premier12 Tournament. The hard-throwing right-hander was the backup replacement to replaced C.C. Lee who withdrawal from the tournament.

Liu’s Velocity Touches 158kph (98mph)

The 20-year-old Liu Chih-Jung found himself in the media spotlight in September when he was clocked throwing 158kph (98mph) during a university tournament. Apart from his fastball, Liu also displayed his ability to hit and crushed several home runs while hitting from both sides.

Liu took almost two years off from pitching after high school due to injuries. During those times, he mainly played as a middle infielder and did not return to the mound again until 2019.

On October 20, Liu Chih-Jung tossed 2.1 scoreless innings with five strikeouts against Japan in the 2019 Asian Baseball Championship. The fastest pitch he threw in that outing was 158kph (98mph). However, several scouts in attendance clocked him at 163kph (101mph).
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HellToupee said:
the Boston Red Sox have reportedly signed Culture University’s 劉致榮 (Liu Chih-Jung) as an international free agent.
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He'll be only the second minor league player out of Culture University, joining Yao-Hsun Yang who pitched 16 innings (walking 18 :shock: )  for the Pirates' AA affiliate in 2014.

 
Copeman said:
Pirates hired Cherington as GM.  Tell me about him.  Good hire in your opinions?
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Solid hire IMO, good talent evaluator but can get a bit attached to his prospects(less if an issue in Pit than Boston). He's an analytics guy but spent time as a scout so he's a nice highbred. He will build up your minor league system for sure, I think that's his strength. 

 
Kraft... said:
Copeman said:
Pirates hired Cherington as GM.  Tell me about him.  Good hire in your opinions?
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Solid hire IMO, good talent evaluator but can get a bit attached to his prospects(less if an issue in Pit than Boston). He's an analytics guy but spent time as a scout so he's a nice highbred. He will build up your minor league system for sure, I think that's his strength. 
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Pablo Sandoval is a free agent again :stirspot:

 
fire up the bandwagon!  i'm driving.  free popcorn to anyone that can name 12 players on the team.

i really don't like the astros, so let the saaaawx win!

 
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