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Basic Income Guarantee (3 Viewers)

Which I think is a brilliant idea that can never work. I think it would be vastly superior to what we have in place now, except for three things that I think are not solvable, and are proven not solvable at every possible turn.

1) You should use basic income as a replacement for entitlement programs. It's structurally wildly superior. But nobody will ever replace them, they will only want to add this to them, because otherwise there will be some person somewhere with a very specific set of circumstances who loses in the new construct.

2) You have to accept that there are people who are not capable of using that money in a responsible way, spending it on the things you think they should (like health insurance or health care) and who will end up in the gutter. You can't afford UBI and entitlements. So you have to be comfortable with people dying in the gutter. And, as a society, we are not. Which makes entitlement programs a superior option.

3) Whatever level we set the UBI at initially, it is only a matter of a short period of time before it is ordained that it is "not enough and not fair" and we need to raise it to another, higher, arbitrary number. And since all the numbers are arbitrary, just like they are for Min Wage, there is no limit to what it should be, and no logical stopping point for when it is enough. 
1. Most proposals for BIG/UBI are as a replacement for most means-tested safety net programs (e.g. welfare, unemployment, foodstamps, etc.).  The argument your friend appears to be making is "We shouldn't propose BIG as a replacement for means-tested safety nets because someone else will drop the replacement part."  That's a pretty silly argument and could literally be used as an argument against every proposal ever; "We shouldn't propose X because someone somewhere will misconstrue it as a proposal for Y, and Y is a bad idea."

2. This isn't an argument against BIG either.  Yes, some people will spend the money unwisely.  Some people spend their means-tested safety net money unwisely.  How we get money to people (BIG vs. current program) is unrelated to how they spend it.

3. Obviously, the number would need to be indexed to inflation or some other annual cost of living index.  That's a no brainer.  Regarding what number to start at, there will naturally be all sorts of proposals any thought processes.  Again, that's not really an argument against doing it at all.  Consider an analogy to speed limits or blood-alcohol limits on driving.  That there might be disagreement on what an appropriate speed limit is or what blood-alcohol level is truly impaired (and there will be disagreement) is NOT a good reason to suggest that we don't need speed limits or drunk driving laws at all.

 
23% unemployed as of today, projected to be worse next month. But what’s even more important is that many economic experts say that even when we’re past the virus, a lot of these jobs aren’t coming back. 

Which means we need to revisit this. I was never fully on board, nor did I think the public would ever go for it. They still might not- will conservatives agree to an idea that, at least on paper, seems to smack of socialism and appears antithetical to the old “pull yourself up by your bootstraps, it’s not my problem”? I’m not sure, and there are enough Republicans around to block anything they don’t like. 

But on the other hand I’m not seeing an alternative. 23% out of work. Damn. 
If it really comes with the elimination of current programs, I can see some Republican support. Democrats can claim a win by implementing BIG and Republicans can claim a win by eliminating programs they've been against for a long time. Republicans can say something like "We still don't like BIG, but it's better than what we used to have!" It might also need some language that keeps BIG recipients from receiving additional federal help or prevents further federal federal programs from being created for X years. That way, they can say "Ok, you get BIG, but that's it. If you waste your BIG money, that's on you and there isn't more federal help coming behind that."

 
Perfect opportunity right now to run a BIG test. See what happens. Print off 2 Trillion $ coins and we are off.

Smart move by the D's whether it passes or not. They will get votes for bringing it to the table if this meltdown lingers.

 
I can't get on board with some of the proposals being floated out there.  $2000/month check?  Another stimulus payment?  The most efficient thing to do would be to suspend all loans (mortgage, rent, auto, credit, etc.) without interest or balloon payments until every State in the US is reopened.     

EDIT: I wonder what the cost to the government would be if they forced companies to suspend loan payments.  I don't know.  Maybe someone who is in the finance industry could detail the costs involved.
not a bad idea at all.

 
I can't get on board with some of the proposals being floated out there.  $2000/month check?  Another stimulus payment?  The most efficient thing to do would be to suspend all loans (mortgage, rent, auto, credit, etc.) without interest or balloon payments until every State in the US is reopened.     

EDIT: I wonder what the cost to the government would be if they forced companies to suspend loan payments.  I don't know.  Maybe someone who is in the finance industry could detail the costs involved.


not a bad idea at all.
We're seeing the snapback at the federal level over unconstitutional abrogation of contracts.  CNN article on eviction moratoriums.

The legal relief from these contracts are the various bankruptcy chapters written into law.  The US govt. blithely abrogating all of these contract types would not just lock up the financial system, but would have worldwide reverberations akin to the US defaulting on US Treasury debt.  It's a universally awful idea.

 
It counts as a trial.  As far as this thread's title is concerned the amount is insufficient to serve the "basic" needs of those receiving this.   It isn't "universal" so it wouldn't be a "universal basic income" either.  But it is a trial.  More data that very likely demonstrates the viability even if it leaves some areas to nit pick for the opposition like teens went to school and thus worked fewer hours, or more women left abusive situations leading to higher divorce rates, mothers and fathers occasionally turn down overtime to see their child play a sport or be in a school play or concert.  Typical failures of these trials.                  

 
It counts as a trial.  As far as this thread's title is concerned the amount is insufficient to serve the "basic" needs of those receiving this.   It isn't "universal" so it wouldn't be a "universal basic income" either.  But it is a trial.  More data that very likely demonstrates the viability even if it leaves some areas to nit pick for the opposition like teens went to school and thus worked fewer hours, or more women left abusive situations leading to higher divorce rates, mothers and fathers occasionally turn down overtime to see their child play a sport or be in a school play or concert.  Typical failures of these trials.                  
Answer: as long as it is racist against white people, it's fine.

 
Answer: as long as it is racist against white people, it's fine.
For it to count as a UBI there would be no eligibility section to the article, there would be no income or racial qualifiers.  For most BIG proposals the same would be true though some propose income caps or to implement in such a way (negative income taxes) that the distribution to upper income folks go away.  This is not one of those either.  But it is a trial of the idea.

Most people that support a UBI or a BIG would argue against virtually any eligibility requirements as a waste of resources, so limiting this to people of color would not qualify.  

As someone who is tired of talking about race you may not like this particular trial, but you should probably support such full blown income guarantees since they show to reduce income (and wealth) inequality that the article mentions as a problem without any actual racial component.  Without discriminating against poor white people.  This trial might fail at that, but that is why we need to get away from these tiny neighborhood trials and move on to a national UBI to promote the general welfare of what would be a more perfect nation.    

 
For it to count as a UBI there would be no eligibility section to the article, there would be no income or racial qualifiers.  For most BIG proposals the same would be true though some propose income caps or to implement in such a way (negative income taxes) that the distribution to upper income folks go away.  This is not one of those either.  But it is a trial of the idea.

Most people that support a UBI or a BIG would argue against virtually any eligibility requirements as a waste of resources, so limiting this to people of color would not qualify.  

As someone who is tired of talking about race you may not like this particular trial, but you should probably support such full blown income guarantees since they show to reduce income (and wealth) inequality that the article mentions as a problem without any actual racial component.  Without discriminating against poor white people.  This trial might fail at that, but that is why we need to get away from these tiny neighborhood trials and move on to a national UBI to promote the general welfare of what would be a more perfect nation.    
I will not support a trial that specifically excludes a race. Period. And you shouldn't either.  Its disgusting.

Poor is poor

 
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I will not support a trial that specifically excludes a race. Period. And you shouldn't either.  Its disgusting.

Poor is poor
For a guy who claims to be tired of talking about race, you sure do bring it up an awful a lot.

And of course, you did. Instead of being happy a study showed positive effects for a segment of people who greatly need help, you have to be upset and offended by it because they only sampled (just a few hundred nonetheless) black and indigenous people.

 
For a guy who claims to be tired of talking about race, you sure do bring it up an awful a lot.

And of course, you did. Instead of being happy a study showed positive effects for a segment of people who greatly need help, you have to be upset and offended by it because they only sampled (just a few hundred nonetheless) black and indigenous people.
Dude are you slow or something?  If you're gonna do an ubi, do it for everyone and don't exclude a race. Then we don't talk about race.  Get it?

Good god 

 
Dude are you slow or something?  If you're gonna do an ubi, do it for everyone and don't exclude a race. Then we don't talk about race.  Get it?

Good god 
Dude... it’s a couple hundred people for a ####### test. Do you somehow think it’s only going to be available for black/indigenous people if it were to launch on a country-wide scale?

Also, why only the concern for white people? It appears there aren’t any Asians and Indians included in the group either. Was Oakland specifically excluding them here too to be racist against them or maybe it has to do something with black/indigenous families having much lower incomes as a whole in Oakland?

 
Dude... it’s a couple hundred people for a ####### test. Do you somehow think it’s only going to be available for black/indigenous people if it were to launch on a country-wide scale?

Also, why only the concern for white people? It appears there aren’t any Asians and Indians included in the group either. Was Oakland specifically excluding them here too to be racist against them or maybe it has to do something with black/indigenous families having much lower incomes as a whole in Oakland?
Not what happened.  Doesnt matter level of income.  You can be dirt poor nd if you're white...excluded.

I refuse to support a program that specifically targets a race for exclusion.  And if you do then I believe you're racist.  That's the damn definition of it. 

 
Not what happened.  Doesnt matter level of income.  You can be dirt poor nd if you're white...excluded.

I refuse to support a program that specifically targets a race for exclusion.  And if you do then I believe you're racist.  That's the damn definition of it. 
I get that there are poor white people in Oakland. Unfortunately, there are much more poor black/indigenous people so it makes sense they make up the majority of this test group. Should they have included a couple of white people? Probably, but is it really getting upset over a small test that aimed to help people in need? If the test works, I promise you no races will be excluded.

Also, noticed how you said ‘A race’. You can’t stop talking about them excluding white people, specifically. So if they are targeting to exclude whites, where is your same energy for the Asians and Indians who were also excluded? They must be specifically targeting to exclude them as well, right?

 
I get that there are poor white people in Oakland. Unfortunately, there are much more poor black/indigenous people so it makes sense they make up the majority of this test group. Should they have included a couple of white people? Probably, but is it really getting upset over a small test that aimed to help people in need? If the test works, I promise you no races will be excluded.

Also, noticed how you said ‘A race’. You can’t stop talking about them excluding white people, specifically. So if they are targeting to exclude whites, where is your same energy for the Asians and Indians who were also excluded? They must be specifically targeting to exclude them as well, right?
Yep.  Thats racist too and bullcrap

 
So if they are targeting to exclude whites, where is your same energy for the Asians and Indians who were also excluded? They must be specifically targeting to exclude them as well, right?
I don't think this is the defense that the program is not clearly racist that you think it is.

 
I don't think this is the defense that the program is not clearly racist that you think it is.
Lol, fair enough but see my response to Mike on my thoughts on this: 

I get that there are poor white people in Oakland. Unfortunately, there are much more poor black/indigenous people so it makes sense they make up the majority of this test group. Should they have included a couple of white people? Probably, but is it really getting upset over a small test that aimed to help people in need? If the test works, I promise you no races will be excluded.

 
Lol, fair enough but see my response to Mike on my thoughts on this: 

I get that there are poor white people in Oakland. Unfortunately, there are much more poor black/indigenous people so it makes sense they make up the majority of this test group. Should they have included a couple of white people? Probably, but is it really getting upset over a small test that aimed to help people in need? If the test works, I promise you no races will be excluded.
I'm trying to follow along here - lets say this test program works, then what?

 
FairWarning said:
I'm trying to follow along here - lets say this test program works, then what?
Unless this time is different it will work.  Unless this time is different some aspect of how it worked well be taken out of context to stroke fears.  This time might be different, but otherwise we should know how this works now.

 
Big study by Harvard found that a UBI did nothing for the financial health of recipients and in some aspects made things worse.

Did pandemic stimulus payments harm lower-income Americans? That’s the implication of a new study by social scientists at Harvard and the University of Exeter.

Liberals argue that no-strings-attached handouts encourage better financial decisions and healthier lifestyles. The theory is that low-income folks become more future-oriented if they’re less stressed about making ends meet. The Harvard study put this hypothesis to the test and found the opposite.

During a randomized trial conducted from July 2020 to May 2021, researchers assigned 2,073 low-income participants to receive a one-time unconditional cash transfer of either $500 or $2,000. Another 3,170 people with similar financial, demographic and socioeconomic characteristics served as a control group. The trial was funded by an anonymous nonprofit.

Participants earned an average of about $950 a month and had $530 in unearned income (e.g., food stamps). About 80% had children, and 55% were unemployed. Over 15 weeks they were surveyed about their physical, mental and financial well-being. Forty-three percent also agreed to allow researchers to observe their bank balances and financial transactions.

The top-line result: Handouts increased spending for a few weeks—on average $26 a day in the $500 group and $82 a day in the $2,000 group—but had no observable positive effect on any individual outcome. Bank overdraft fees, late-payment fees and cash advances were as common among cash recipients as in the control group.

Handout recipients fared worse on most survey outcomes. They reported less earned income and liquidity, lower work performance and satisfaction, more financial stress, sleep quality and physical health, and higher levels of loneliness and anxiety than the control group. There was no difference between the two cash groups.

These findings contradicted the predictions of 477 social scientists and policy makers the researchers surveyed. That’s not surprising. Most liberal academics and politicians believe government handouts are the solution to all problems. If transfer payments were a ticket to the middle class, the War on Poverty would have succeeded long ago.

The researchers posited that perhaps the cash payments weren’t generous enough to generate a positive result. “Receiving some, but not enough, money may have made their needs—and the gap between their resources and needs—more salient, which, in turn, may have made them feel distressed,” they write.

“Needs” is a subjective term. The theory is that low-income people who got handouts became more stressed when they realized they still couldn’t afford everything they “needed,” or more likely, wanted. If that’s true, simply giving people even more cash would surely lead to the same problem.

More plausible, the payments made work less rewarding, which reduced feelings of personal well-being. Cash recipients reported less earned income and felt worse about their work. It’s no surprise that people who received a large percentage of their monthly income for doing nothing were less motivated to work and less satisfied with their work. Earning a paycheck can give workers a sense of personal agency that encourages them to make better financial and health decisions. Receiving a handout may do the opposite.

As for financial outcomes, poor people often struggle to manage money, and this is one reason why many remain poor despite receiving plentiful government assistance. Merely giving people more money won’t make them better stewards of it, as the study showed. In some cases, people spend more than they receive and become overextended.

The roots of poverty are complex, but the study isn’t a one-off in documenting a link between transfer payments and worse outcomes. A 2018 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined the diet quality of food-stamp beneficiaries from 2003 to 2014, a period in which average benefits increased more than 50%. Similar low-income people who didn’t get food stamps ate more healthily than those who did. The non-food-stamp group consumed significantly fewer sugar-sweetened beverages, and their diets improved more over time.

Transfer payments ballooned during the pandemic as Democrats argued that they were needed to prevent millions of Americans from falling into poverty. Republicans in Congress put up little resistance, at least while Donald Trump was president. Congress spent a total of $800 billion merely on stimulus checks during the pandemic.

The handouts induced people to spend more and also reduced the incentive to work, which fanned inflation. Now there’s evidence that the payments could have reduced personal well-being as well. A tome could be written on all of the government mistakes during the pandemic. One lesson for Congress seems clear: Never again send out cash with no strings attached.

 
I don't think a one-time payment of $500 or $2000 indicates anything regarding UBI/BIG.
I've read positive results from other places that do various amounts for long period of time.  They also play with things like cash vs. other methods.   From everything I've read sustained cash payments have a net positive result.  

 
I've read positive results from other places that do various amounts for long period of time.  They also play with things like cash vs. other methods.   From everything I've read sustained cash payments have a net positive result.  
If someone sent me some sustained cash payments I’d like to think that would net positive results for me lol

 
I've read positive results from other places that do various amounts for long period of time.  They also play with things like cash vs. other methods.   From everything I've read sustained cash payments have a net positive result.  
How about your personal experiences when people were getting free unemployment money during covid.  Hard to find labor and prices eventually rise.  

 
BIG would seem to be potentially catastrophic in tight labor markets such as what we’ve recently experienced.

 Overall it would intuitively drive inflation on several fronts.

 
I've read positive results from other places that do various amounts for long period of time.  They also play with things like cash vs. other methods.   From everything I've read sustained cash payments have a net positive result.  
On a small scale it makes sense that there’s a net positive for the recipients. I’m skeptical about a large scale program especially after seeing inflation Probably caused in some part by stimulus payments. 

 
On a small scale it makes sense that there’s a net positive for the recipients. I’m skeptical about a large scale program especially after seeing inflation Probably caused in some part by stimulus payments. 
Every time I read about it as a policy, it's also replacing other current programs - food stamps, etc..   not in addition to.    Isn't some of the concerns of inflation alleviated because it's not additional payments like we saw with covid checks? 

 
How about your personal experiences when people were getting free unemployment money during covid.  Hard to find labor and prices eventually rise.  
People say it's a cop out, but I personally don't know how to separate the two things.    It feels like we seem to gloss over the fact that we went through a once in a couple generation event with the pandemic.  How do you figure out what part of those disruptions in the labor force and inflation were because of the covid pandemic for 2 years and what part were stimulus checks?  

From my experience, our employees were staying away way more because of the pandemic, not because of any stimulus checks.  

 
Disrupting labor markets is a feature of BIG not a bug.
Ha, I suppose, how does the saying go…one man’s feature is another man’s bug 😀

I think your point still stands but I’m not sure BIG is really disruptive though.  Robotics and AI I’d see as disruptive.  BIG is really just reducing supply in the existing construct.

 
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People say it's a cop out, but I personally don't know how to separate the two things.    It feels like we seem to gloss over the fact that we went through a once in a couple generation event with the pandemic.  How do you figure out what part of those disruptions in the labor force and inflation were because of the covid pandemic for 2 years and what part were stimulus checks?  

From my experience, our employees were staying away way more because of the pandemic, not because of any stimulus checks.  
We got to see how a lot of people handled free money also.  It’s a valuable lesson  learned as people chose to make $16/hour here in Mich by not working.  It raised labor costs, then prices across the board.

i have no doubt we will go to some European socialist system in our lifetimes.  

 
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Every time I read about it as a policy, it's also replacing other current programs - food stamps, etc..   not in addition to.    Isn't some of the concerns of inflation alleviated because it's not additional payments like we saw with covid checks? 
Not really, not significantly. Presumably any payout of BIG would be more than a person was receiving under other  social programs. If not, those who need the funds will be hurt by the BIG. so if we’re paying everyone the same, more than those on welfare get now, it seems the BIG will be super expensive and the inflow risks higher inflation. 
I haven’t looked too deep into the different possible systems so I’m probably missing something  

 
We got to see how a lot of people handled free money also.  It’s a valuable lesson  learned as people chose to make $16/hour here in Mich by not working.  It raised labor costs, then prices across the board.

i have no doubt we will go to some European socialist system in our lifetimes.  
My understanding is those checks are higher than most BIG programs I've seen suggested - like $1000 a month or something - not $2500 you are suggesting here.   There has to be a balance struck - enough to help people, but not total supplemental income.   

Not sure what you were seeing or getting that $16/hour.   Hell, I would probably stop working at that rate too.   Like I said, I am not opposed to the idea as a starting point, so it seems I am more hesitant to point to the last couple years as what will happen when there were other big reasons people didn't want to go to work (risk of covid) and the checks were higher than what I have seen suggested for a BIG program.  

 
We got to see how a lot of people handled free money also.  It’s a valuable lesson  learned as people chose to make $16/hour here in Mich by not working.  It raised labor costs, then prices across the board.

i have no doubt we will go to some European socialist system in our lifetimes.  
Sadly, preschool teachers, including my wife, make a bit less than $16/hr. While dealing with a dozen or so preschool kids for 6-8 hours with two adults.  The only reasons my wife does it is she truly enjoys it and the hours work well with kids in school. They’re having a hard time filling spots. But then if you even talk about raising rates, many parents go ballistic. Can’t really blame people for taking the free money at  that point. 

 
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Sadly, preschool teachers, including my wife, make a bit less than $16/hr. While dealing with a dozen or so preschool kids for 6-8 hours with two adults.  The only reasons my wife does it is she truly enjoys it and the hours work well with kids in school. They’re having a hard time filling spots. But then if you even talk about raising rates, many parents go ballistic. Can’t really blame people for taking the free money at  that point. 


100% true

my GF is similar, was $16 an hour for K last year (  but moved to another position and $20 for this fall ) and still horribly underpaid when Dunkin Donuts is hiring for $12 

I know for many people if you gave them $2000 a month and free insurance they'd never work a tax paying job again, shifting even more burden on people who work and pay taxes (like we don't already have enough as it is) 

 
Where are you guys coming up with these figures?  Yes, I would guess your concerns would be way more front and center if we give out $2K-2.5K a month to everybody.    and free insurance - where are you getting that?  

Those are not the numbers I've ever seen.  When I read about BIG, it's in the $800-1K range.   I don't think that $6/hr is going to get people to quit their jobs in large numbers.   I've also never seen anything about free insurance.  

Any links to these higher proposals, or like I asked - are we just extrapolating things we saw during COVID and applying that instead? 

 
People who want UBI/BIG is there an income threshold or is everyone able to get it?  
There is no single, defining BIG proposal out there.  In general, most BIG proposals have no income threshold, specifically to avoid the disincentive to earn more or stop working at a certain point.

 
Ok.  Second question, dual income households, do they get one payment or double?
See above, in that there is no single, defining BIG proposal.

In general, most follow the basic framework below...

  • All adults are eligible, no income threshold
  • Payments are typically suggested in the range of $10-15K per year (made monthly or weekly, doesn't much matter)
  • Some proposals add payments for children, some in a trust, some directly to the parents, typically lower than the number for the adults
  • Replaces most of our existing social safety nets, including welfare, unemployment, food stamps, housing, etc.
Again, you'll see variations.  Some people will argue for $20K payments.  Some will suggest that it should only replace welfare and unemployment, but not food stamps.  Some will suggest that portions of the payment be earmarked for certain expenditures (e.g. $100 per week only eligible for food).  Etc...

 
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