Guns, Murder, Race & Income (1 Viewer)

[FairWarning]

We are going in circles.  You are basing your comments on your specific circumstance and you are only one data point.  Its not about a few people.  Its about the entire population.  its been proven by many there are severe gaps and disproportion in many areas and systems.  All of the numbers, the disproportion have been presented.  Studies shown.  You have no interest in fixing the disproportion for the betterment of this country.  Do you do the same when presented with issues impacting the environment?  "where i live there are no issues it must be you, stop blaming everyone for your problems" is that how you approach it?  Instead of looking into the cause and trying to fix it?

And you misconstrue others statements as well which isnt fair and frankly is very annoying.   Im afraid there isnt anything else we can talk about at this point.  I look forward to other productive dialogue in this thread but i dont see our conversation going anywhere. 

To be fair, people have suggested things, only to met with the tired responses of 60+ years of systemic racism.  That may have been the case when our parents were young, but things are getting better every day.  There are far more opportunities, no?  I’m not saying it’s perfect, but better.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

To be fair, people have suggested things, only to met with the tired responses of 60+ years of systemic racism.  That may have been the case when our parents were young, but things are getting better every day.  There are far more opportunities, no?  I’m not saying it’s perfect, but better.  

Many studies we link to are from the 2000s+.   Yes, some of what we talk about as having a lasting effect on wealth/crime were because of things like redlining, etc.. (when you talk about things that effected our parents).  Yes, many things have improved.  But let's not ignore recent data still pointing to things that need to be addressed.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Doesn’t really do much good to lock the truck up, the last couple hits were smash and grabs, kids.  

Different businesses, I guess.  Like I said, we've had these talks at my places of employment, and people have been suspended or let go due to not following some of those procedures.   

I don't think if you left the door to your store unlocked and wide open and the owner got robbed, the response of "don't blame me, blame the robbers" would get somebody very far.  

 

[PinkydaPimp]

To be fair, people have suggested things, only to met with the tired responses of 60+ years of systemic racism.  That may have been the case when our parents were young, but things are getting better every day.  There are far more opportunities, no?  I’m not saying it’s perfect, but better.  

I mean this thread specifically was to discuss crime, education, poverty and such.  And much of my responses focused on such.  There was some great discussion(from you lately as well)  then got derailed because  stealthy was poor so that must mean if he can do it anyone can and racism is gone.  Which is ridiculous and insulting frankly. 

Even your post its the same comment over and over.  yes things are getting better in some ways none of us have said otherwise.  but in some ways things are not getting better.  Ignoring those trapped in the poverty they were put in as a result of policies 60 years ago(i will not even mention whats going on today) is frankly ridiculous because people our age and their kids are STILL IMPACTED BY IT WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT.   

 

[FairWarning]

Different businesses, I guess.  Like I said, we've had these talks at my places of employment, and people have been suspended or let go due to not following some of those procedures.   

I don't think if you left the door to your store unlocked and wide open and the owner got robbed, the response of "don't blame me, blame the robbers" would get somebody very far.  

Do people commit crimes just because they can?  If so, what does that say about society?  Not everyone who commits them are desperate either. 

 

[PinkydaPimp]

To be fair, people have suggested things, only to met with the tired responses of 60+ years of systemic racism.  That may have been the case when our parents were young, but things are getting better every day.  There are far more opportunities, no?  I’m not saying it’s perfect, but better.  

also as much as you are tired of responses about it.... imagine how tired some of us are of dealing with it. 

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Do people commit crimes just because they can?  If so, what does that say about society?  Not everyone who commits them are desperate either. 

you are correct. 

People commit crimes for various reasons.

Mental issues

Dont have any hope they can do anything with their life

Some because they are desparate

Some to survive

Some are just bad people(maybe that falls under mental issues)

Some are just young and stupid

etc. etc.

And to reiterate ill be the first to tell you its better than it was 60 years ago.  But many issues are still present.  Just not as visible. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Do people commit crimes just because they can?  If so, what does that say about society?  Not everyone who commits them are desperate either. 

I am sure there are some that do.  I was a punk as a kid and would do dumb #### like that.   

I think people have different thresholds as to what they would do.   Deterrents are just that  - do you think there would be the same level of crime if we had no locks, security systems, etc?   Of course not - crime would go up.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

you are correct. 

People commit crimes for various reasons.

Mental issues

Dont have any hope they can do anything with their life

Some because they are desparate

Some to survive

Some are just bad people(maybe that falls under mental issues)

Some are just young and stupid

etc. etc.

And to reiterate ill be the first to tell you its better than it was 60 years ago.  But many issues are still present.  Just not as visible. 

I think that is a big mental barrier for people.   Very easy to say "well, there is nothing on the books, so all is good!!"  

 

[Stealthycat]

Oh, we have.  

1.  I am not "blaming" anybody, so that question doesn't apply.  

2.   We are not talking poverty #s, we are talking poverty rate.  HERE.   There are far more white people in the US, so it's not surprising that there is more white people in poverty.  What we are saying is that one group has 7-8% of it's population in poverty, and another has 19-20% of it's population in poverty.  

We can lay blame - defined as "to assign responsibility for a fault or wrong." where it belongs, that I have no problem with. When its assigned wrongly we need to say it though.

Numbers absolutely matters. White privilege's KarmaPolice, systemic racism that elevates whites and suppressed blacks. The things argued here .... if they're true, why do we have 14.2 million whites in poverty ? shouldn't there be like very very few ? 

Disproportionate numbers could have many many reasons behind it - but the pure numbers aren't lying, white people, there are millions suffering and no mystical systemic advantages are helping them. why ? 

http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html 

 

[Stealthycat]

We are going in circles.  You are basing your comments on your specific circumstance and you are only one data point.  Its not about a few people.  Its about the entire population.  its been proven by many there are severe gaps and disproportion in many areas and systems.  All of the numbers, the disproportion have been presented.  Studies shown.  You have no interest in fixing the disproportion for the betterment of this country.  Do you do the same when presented with issues impacting the environment?  "where i live there are no issues it must be you, stop blaming everyone for your problems" is that how you approach it?  Instead of looking into the cause and trying to fix it?

And you misconstrue others statements as well which isnt fair and frankly is very annoying.   Im afraid there isnt anything else we can talk about at this point.  I look forward to other productive dialogue in this thread but i dont see our conversation going anywhere. 

the whole population is built up of individuals

I could tell you the Rocky Mountains are dying - as a whole - and you wouldn't have any idea how to attack the problem until you went to each individual stream and meadow and mountain and prairie and pond etc etc and understood why they were environmentally impacted individually - and altogether as a whole then you would have a better idea how to attack the problems, right ?

the argument was nonexistent generational wealth was the result of slavery and racist laws and rules. Also poor area's they live in, poor small school without the funding of larger ones. A culture of poverty ..... and as a result many black people today are just poor because they had nothing to build off of.  That in a nutshell was the argument.

sounds great - until I step in and say wait, I had no generational wealth, grew up dirt poor and small school and a culture of poverty. but I'm white

uh oh ..... that means that maybe the things ya'll listed aren't all there is too it because as we know, close to twice as many whites in the nation are in poverty as blacks - there is some reason for that too isn't there? 

what are the reasons? I submitted hard work, determination, good decisions, good choices.... those are the core things to escape poverty and ya'll agreed but also rejected that everyone could have that. Why? Why would those things be attainable for some people and not others, they're not color associated qualities .....

and maybe, just maybe, the same reasons all the millions of poverty white people are very close to the same reasons all the poverty black people are where they are and if that were true what does that do to the theory of systemic racism holding people back ?

do you see what I'm saying ?

 

[Stealthycat]

Ignoring those trapped in the poverty they were put in as a result of policies 60 years ago(i will not even mention whats going on today) is frankly ridiculous because people our age and their kids are STILL IMPACTED BY IT WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT.   

why was my family family trapped in poverty?  they were white - as far back as my aunt looked (genealogy) we were poor hillbilly mountain people who picked cotton and migrant working tomatoes, cherries, apples etc. No education, no wealth.

what policies put them/us there? if there were no policies, then how could all that have happened? not just to my family - to millions and millions of white families? 

I'm very curious what you would say the reasons are for it. Its very important to this overall discussion IMO

 

[KarmaPolice]

I am bored and have the day off, and as much as I will probably regret it, I will try one more time, SC.   What you seem to be skipping over in our posts and in these threads is that nobody is denying that there are poor white people, but surely you understand the difference between raw numbers and % of population, right?   Nobody is denying the #s of poor people, but when it's said one group is disproportionally effected, that is where the 7% of the population of a group vs. 20% of the population of a group comes into play.   

Now, IMO there are two main factors that are being talked about and somebody blurred in the process:

1.  Poverty and the battle of the haves/have nots

2.  Racism, systemic or otherwise.  

The answers to your questions about your family lie in your posts, and in #1.   We've stated over and over that big keys to getting out of poverty are education and home ownership.  You have stated that they didn't come with money, were uneducated, and if I remember right worked in low paying ag type jobs.   That is a tough cycle to get out of.  My family had similar.   Hard to get educated if the kids need to work or help at home, tough to move up and save since you are barely scraping by, etc..  Usually what happens is one of the kids breaks out, gets a better education, gets a better job, then can either help out financially or their kids do the same. These types of problems bog down all communities, regardless of color.   Again, it's hard to get out of this rut, especially if jobs leave the community.   

Now, on top of all that above, the black communities ALSO had to deal with racism.   They were denied loans, couldn't move to better places where they could buy that home that would gain wealth, they couldn't go to the same schools, etc, etc.   That's the difference, and that is a reason for the big differences in those poverty rates (7% vs. 20%).   And that is why people say that as hard as your family had it, it was still harder for the black community.   We purposely made it harder for them to get ahead through policies like that.  

Now, I get it - things have improved in a ton of ways.   We have also linked dozens of stats that aren't from 1960, they are from the past decade or so showing the lingering effects of these actions.   I think most of us are on the same page with how most of these families get out of poverty - mom and dad want better for their kids, some or all of the kids get a better education, some or all get better jobs, then their families don't have to do the back breaking work for low pay, etc..      That's a lot harder to do if they can't afford to have the kids not work, there aren't decent jobs, there aren't good schools - those are the factors that effect all poor people.  Now add to that the factors that just effected black people - no loans, couldn't get a house, denied access to schools, etc..  

Surely you can understand that if your grandparents couldn't break that, it would be harder for your parents or siblings to do that, it would be harder for you to break that.  Not impossible, not can't be done, not they have to be blamed, whatever.   Just harder.    I am curious what you think were the key moments for them or your family to be able to break out of that poverty a bit.  

 

[Stealthycat]

Now, on top of all that above, the black communities ALSO had to deal with racism.   They were denied loans, couldn't move to better places where they could buy that home that would gain wealth, they couldn't go to the same schools, etc, etc.   That's the difference, and that is a reason for the big differences in those poverty rates (7% vs. 20%).   And that is why people say that as hard as your family had it, it was still harder for the black community.   We purposely made it harder for them to get ahead through policies like that.  

ok that was decades and decades ago - and "we" didn't make it harder, some white people did, but 98% of all white people I'd hazard to say didn't make it harder at all, that was at the elite top and that was decades and decades ago

look I see what you're saying - and you're right in your assessment of my family

Surely you can understand that if your grandparents couldn't break that, it would be harder for your parents or siblings to do that, it would be harder for you to break that.  Not impossible, not can't be done, not they have to be blamed, whatever.   Just harder.    I am curious what you think were the key moments for them or your family to be able to break out of that poverty a bit.  

I've thought a lot about this last few days

My grandparents could have broken it. I don't think they could have staying where they were though. I didn't work side by side with them, I don't know their work ethics or the choices/decisions they made young. I know they didn't leave hill country except to pick cotton and migrant work. They chose a simple life, without an education, making it by week to week and month to month and that's absolutely fine - and they didn't blame anyone either.

The cycle didn't break with my Dad - he quit high school 6th grade I think. Drafted at 18, then returned home and he stayed local, worked factory jobs, didn't try management, just worked hard but never showed great financial success in which his kids could build off of. My uncle left, went to St Louis, started a brick laying business and did great. Same background. 

but even through all that .......... lets talk about me

I did graduate high school. I studied, I paid attention, I didn't like to get beat on classes but a 3.2 or 3.4 GPA or something was all I pulled. I don't think I was any more or less intelligent than my Dad/uncle or their Dad .... I did go to college without much direction, then left and started travel/working. I started working when I was 10 or 12 years old .... working hayfields, farm work, then food industry. I did this all through my high school years. I was arrested once and charge when I was 16 for something trivial, but other than that, never got in trouble, didn't knock a girl up etc. Even in college I worked two McDonalds jobs to make ends meet. I was homeless one year, and I stayed in the back of my Nissan pickup in state parks when I traveled more often than I can count. I was surprised at the sexism in the world - being a man wasn't a benefit and being white wasn't either. I was fired one time and replaced with Hmong workers because the team lead was Hmong. I was released from a job in Cedar Rapids IA because a woman didn't like a joke a guy told me. I didn't even tell the joke and was released! The most surprising thing was how people made fun of my accent, being from the south. 

Guys in my class, most of them stayed local, and most of them are not successful on a financial measure. They might be very happy where they are, but they're not passing on generational wealth.  I won't pass on a great deal - but a great deal more than I received. 

Now tell me - why can't a young black man in a poor area with no generational wealth do similar? Paint the above picture and many a young black face could be put on it. Racism for the most part, whites towards blacks in any measurable way, is pretty much gone. I think if we listed how many special rules/regulations/perks and things blacks get vs whites, there can be a case made that whites are the ones suffering racism. I've listed them and nobody really wants to talk about them. Wealth gap? I lived it. Generational lack of wealth? I had it. Poor poor family? That was me. Entire family lacking education and living in a community with a lacking school system? Yessir, me. Discriminated against? Yep, not for color of skin, but for being from the south and male. Also I'm not a big guy, I got all that bullying too. 

So yeah, when we get into these discussions can you see my point of view better? When i say work hard, make good decisions and choices ... and success will follow I absolutely believe it will. Don't work hard, make bad decisions, poor choices and life isn't going to be easy at all. I don't blame anyone for where I came from 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Nobody is being literal when they use the term "we" for topics like this.    It is like saying "we" beat the Russians in the Olympics, "we" went to war with Iraq, etc..  

 

[KarmaPolice]

SC, I just wanted to say thanks for the post and giving us more of an insight into your background and upbringing.   I am always interested in people's backgrounds and history.   

That said, you are still doing 2 things in your posts that are spinning us in circles:

1.  You keep asking us why can't a black person do the same thing you did.  (nobody has said "can't", we are talking %s of difficulty statistically)

2.  You keep disconnecting individual stories vs. the overall, big picture stats that we are talking about.  

 

[PinkydaPimp]

SC, I just wanted to say thanks for the post and giving us more of an insight into your background and upbringing.   I am always interested in people's backgrounds and history.   

That said, you are still doing 2 things in your posts that are spinning us in circles:

1.  You keep asking us why can't a black person do the same thing you did.  (nobody has said "can't", we are talking %s of difficulty statistically)

2.  You keep disconnecting individual stories vs. the overall, big picture stats that we are talking about.  

Honestly SC gives us a glimpse into why these problems persist.  That alone is fascinating and sad.  

 

[FairWarning]

I think we have officially reached a stalemate.  

 

[Stealthycat]

SC, I just wanted to say thanks for the post and giving us more of an insight into your background and upbringing.   I am always interested in people's backgrounds and history.   

That said, you are still doing 2 things in your posts that are spinning us in circles:

1.  You keep asking us why can't a black person do the same thing you did.  (nobody has said "can't", we are talking %s of difficulty statistically)

2.  You keep disconnecting individual stories vs. the overall, big picture stats that we are talking about.  

1. percentages and difficulty ..... I was thinking about this topic more last night. I agree, ya'll seem to not care about overall numbers, only percentages. So much depends on the individuals - look at all the rich Hollywood kids that were born with silver spoons and they did nothing with their lives, pissing it away. Look at how many NBA/NFL guys are broke 10 years out of their sports. Why? Is there something systemic happening? Something from the past we can blame? Or is it just individual choices?

2. my individual story is one millions of people have - we ARE the big picture too, 6 million more whites in poverty than blacks, there is an overall big picture there too, and a percentage

http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html

I think that's a good link - look at the percentages in poverty that are married and working vs single and not working. 

Good decisions, good choices, hard work - just what I've been saying. Education - which is good decision making.

more ... "  Only 12% of working age adults in poverty worked full time.   People working full time jobs who are in poverty have low paying jobs and a family size that puts them and their spouse and children in a poverty status. "

ok, why do you have such a big family without good job/career to support it? Good choices/decisions right ? 

What the site above never takes into consideration is people sometimes are just lazy people who dont want better or more. They're ok with week to week, floating in the breezes of life. Some alcoholics, some drugs, some homeless, some just don't care. They exist by the millions, we all know people like that

Yes, I understand generational wealth, how hard it is to leave a zip code, working hard, struggling, good/bad decisions ... all that, maybe more so than most here because I lived it vs just talking about it in a coffee shop somewhere. Yes, I also try and understand how racism affected people decades ago and the additional difficulties that brought yet few seem to understand that uneducated and poor and having nothing growing up doesn't care about skin color, it just doesn't

Systemic racism has 16 million white people in poverty. Ya'll explain how all the benefits of being white gives us those numbers - it doesn't. 16 million is the result of choices, hard work and decisions and boiling it down gets us to those 3 things almost everytime with the exceptions of disabled people etc

white, black, brown I don't care .......... we are responsible for our own lives. Make inheritance illegal for all I care, I got nothing coming my way anyway and I've always known that and made my own way. I feel most everyone else can do the same, ya'll seem to disagree with that I think 

 

[Stealthycat]

Honestly SC gives us a glimpse into why these problems persist.  That alone is fascinating and sad.  

I'm not well liked on message boards because I'm honest and tell the truth on how I see things. The worst part about me is i can explain the pillars on which my views stand and can back it with reason, logic and facts

many cannot - they base their views on emotions and emotional responses 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think we have officially reached a stalemate.  

Pretty much.  Not surprising to me now.   What I usually expected during political back and forth conversations was disagreement about policies and how to fix things.   What usually throws me off and frustrates me is that people can't even agree on basic things like stats and whether something is real or not.  

 

[FairWarning]

Pretty much.  Not surprising to me now.   What I usually expected during political back and forth conversations was disagreement about policies and how to fix things.   What usually throws me off and frustrates me is that people can't even agree on basic things like stats and whether something is real or not.  

There’s lies, damn lies, and statistics. Stats are great when there is context to them.  I’m not a big theory guy, so it’s hard for me to fix theories.Just my two cents.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

There’s lies, damn lies, and statistics. Stats are great when there is context to them.  I’m not a big theory guy, so it’s hard for me to fix theories.Just my two cents.  

On top of that, there are stats that are true but two groups arguing over which they are using or talking about (ie what SC and I are doing with overall #s vs. %s).  

Also, people can't agree on definitions of things - ie racism.    Fascinating and  at the same time.  

 

[Caveman33]

On top of that, there are stats that are true but two groups arguing over which they are using or talking about (ie what SC and I are doing with overall #s vs. %s).  

Also, people can't agree on definitions of things - ie racism.    Fascinating and  at the same time.  

I think both of you are trying to make a point with those statistics.  Yours seems to be that blacks suffer poverty more frequently and his seems to be that they aren't the only ones experiencing it.  Life isn't fair.  We can't change the past, but IMO our society has never been more racially equitable than today,   Whether you are born today to a poor white mother who abused drugs because they made her feel good or you are born today to a poor black mother who abused drugs because of racism, you are being born into a similar situation.  We should strive to give both of those kids opportunities, not craft policies that are explicitly discriminatory.  Those are a step backwards.

 

[Herb]

ok, why do you have such a big family without good job/career to support it? Good choices/decisions right ? 

Let's not underestimate the role religion, specifically Catholicism, has in this.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think both of you are trying to make a point with those statistics.  Yours seems to be that blacks suffer poverty more frequently and his seems to be that they aren't the only ones experiencing it.  Life isn't fair.  We can't change the past, but IMO our society has never been more racially equitable than today,   Whether you are born today to a poor white mother who abused drugs because they made her feel good or you are born today to a poor black mother who abused drugs because of racism, you are being born into a similar situation.  We should strive to give both of those kids opportunities, not craft policies that are explicitly discriminatory.  Those are a step backwards.

Again, nobody but him is claiming that though.   Nobody that I know of in these threads has claimed that only black people are in poverty.  That would be a ridiculous.  

As far as the rest of your post, my retorts and my position would be that no, we can't change the past - but we can acknowledge it and it's effects and we could take steps to rectify the mistakes of the past.   My follow up question to people would be:  IF you think that we caused a bit of that gap in the races (through redlining, denying housing/loans, etc.. ), and IF you think it should fixed, how do you do that without a discriminatory policy?   If you feel that way (I get the impression that many do around here), I would think that at some point you have make extra concessions for one group of people over another to correct it.  

Reading through The Color of Law really puts into perspective just how involved the government was in these programs.  It's nuts to think about.  

 

[FairWarning]

Let's not underestimate the role religion, specifically Catholicism, has in this.

The majority of the religious right is in the south, but those are not Catholics.

 

[Herb]

The majority of the religious right is in the south, but those are not Catholics.

What religion are the majority of Central American immigrants? I'm not a student of theology; but do, for instance, Baptists have some of the same views on birth control and procreation that Catholics do?

 

[Caveman33]

Again, nobody but him is claiming that though.   Nobody that I know of in these threads has claimed that only black people are in poverty.  That would be a ridiculous.  

As far as the rest of your post, my retorts and my position would be that no, we can't change the past - but we can acknowledge it and it's effects and we could take steps to rectify the mistakes of the past.   My follow up question to people would be:  IF you think that we caused a bit of that gap in the races (through redlining, denying housing/loans, etc.. ), and IF you think it should fixed, how do you do that without a discriminatory policy?   If you feel that way (I get the impression that many do around here), I would think that at some point you have make extra concessions for one group of people over another to correct it.  

Reading through The Color of Law really puts into perspective just how involved the government was in these programs.  It's nuts to think about.  

Right, and there doesn't need to be anyone making the direct opposite point as him, he will likely still continue to make his point.  I never said anyone's point was "Only blacks suffer poverty." 

I see people use the term redlining, but I rarely see it discussed in detail.  My understanding is that the policies that are commonly called redlining originated from actuarial science.  These are usually sound business practices.  Ultimately, the government stepped in and subsidized these bad investments by forcing lenders to take losses there.  So now everyone who has a loan bears the cost.  Maybe it is similar to how all consumers bear the cost of shoplifting.  What is your understanding of redlining?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Right, and there doesn't need to be anyone making the direct opposite point as him, he will likely still continue to make his point.  I never said anyone's point was "Only blacks suffer poverty." 

I see people use the term redlining, but I rarely see it discussed in detail.  My understanding is that the policies that are commonly called redlining originated from actuarial science.  These are usually sound business practices.  Ultimately, the government stepped in and subsidized these bad investments by forcing lenders to take losses there.  So now everyone who has a loan bears the cost.  Maybe it is similar to how all consumers bear the cost of shoplifting.  What is your understanding of redlining?

I will 100% admit to blurring terms myself.   

My understanding is on the same page as the wiki definition:

In the United States, redlining is the systematic denial of various services to residents of specific, often racially associated, neighborhoods or communities, either explicitly or through the selective raising of prices. While the best known examples of redlining have involved denial of financial services such as banking or insurance, other services such as health care or even supermarkets have been denied to residents.

Mostly I see it in reference to blocking off areas of cities and denying access to black people - houses can't be sold to them, etc..    HERE is a great summary interview with the author of the book.  

ROTHSTEIN: Perhaps the best-known example is Levittown, just east of New York City, but there were subdivisions like this all over the country. What the federal government did in the 1940s and '50s, it came to a developer like Levitt, the Levitt family that built Levittown. That family could never have assembled the capital necessary to build 17,000 homes on its own.

What the federal government did, the FHA, is guarantee bank loans for construction and development to Levittown on condition that no homes be sold to African-Americans and that every home have a clause in its deed prohibiting resale to African-Americans.

Further in the interview he touches on the effects that would linger today of policies like that:

Those homes sold for about $8,000 a piece or $100,000 more or less in today's currency. African-Americans, working class families could have bought those homes. Today though, those homes sell for $300,000, $400,000. They're no longer affordable to working class families. In the ensuing two generations, the white families who moved into those homes gained that $200,000, $300,000 in equity appreciation.

African-Americans living in rented apartments, prohibited from moving to the suburbs, gained none of that appreciation. The result is that today nationwide, African-American incomes on average are about 60 percent of white incomes, but African-American wealth is about 5 to 7 percent of white wealth. That enormous difference is almost entirely attributable to unconstitutional federal housing policy practiced in the mid-20th century.

 

[FairWarning]

What religion are the majority of Central American immigrants? I'm not a student of theology; but do, for instance, Baptists have some of the same views on birth control and procreation that Catholics do?

I wasn’t thinking about Central Americans, yes, very Catholic. I was thinking about the southern baptists and they are very conservative also.   

 

[FairWarning]

What religion are the majority of Central American immigrants? I'm not a student of theology; but do, for instance, Baptists have some of the same views on birth control and procreation that Catholics do?

Good question, I’m a Catholic in name only.  

 

[Herb]

Good question, I’m a Catholic in name only.  

Lapsed. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Let's not underestimate the role religion, specifically Catholicism, has in this.

good question

I'm not sure how religion plays a part - I still default to a person needs to be responsible for their own lives, don't except Govt to help, don't count on handouts, or charity or inheritance etc

 

[Stealthycat]

Again, nobody but him is claiming that though.   Nobody that I know of in these threads has claimed that only black people are in poverty.  That would be a ridiculous.  

sigh

if twice as many whites in poverty aren't being helped by systemic racist that holds blacks down and elevates whites, then systemic racist failed miserably and my question remains - how did all those whites get into and stay in poverty?

black poverty is stemming from the roots of slavery, racist laws, racist rules and restrictions etc - all wrong and decades gone thank God

white poverty stems from .... what ? my submission is they both stem from the SAME SOURCES - people's choices

IF you think that we caused a bit of that gap in the races (through redlining, denying housing/loans, etc.. ), and IF you think it should fixed, how do you do that without a discriminatory policy? 

stop racism - don't allow it - period, end of story

whatever happened to cause all the white generational poverty can be tossed out, all the brown and black too, forget about it, let it go ............. you cannot do anything about it, its done. People are responsible for themselves - what your grandparents did or didn't do aint going to help or harm 95% of us. OUR choices to not do drugs, to not commit crimes, to finish high school, to excel in sports or studies, to work hard, have jobs, be responsible and respectful and productive .... our choices doesn't hinge on someone 50-100 years ago

its almost like ya'll want to REMOVE all personal responsibility and actions and choices etc - and pass rules/laws/regulations to help people based on their skin color alone

me? I want to REMOVE all rules/laws/regulations based on skin color - get rid of the racism 

 

[Stealthycat]

Reading through The Color of Law really puts into perspective just how involved the government was in these programs.  It's nuts to think about.  

I've been wanting to start a thread " Why Trust the US FED GOVT "

that people do baffles me - with all the injustices the Fed Govt has been responsible for over the centuries 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Hey, SC - how about we just take a little TO from responding to each other and bogging down the thread more?   I read your last post, and you are still asking me questions that I have answered (in fact just yesterday in my long post).   It's getting old for me, probably you, and I'm sure most people in the thread.  

 

[FairWarning]

Pretty good article on blacks and small business - https://www.politico.com/sponsored-content/2021/04/breaking-barriers-for-businesses?source=native&medium=FC

basically screw the big banks and go to the smaller ones or credit unions, their business will be more valued.

 

[Stealthycat]

Pretty good article on blacks and small business - https://www.politico.com/sponsored-content/2021/04/breaking-barriers-for-businesses?source=native&medium=FC

basically screw the big banks and go to the smaller ones or credit unions, their business will be more valued.

all of those moves (billions of dollars) to help people based on skin color ... isn't that racist ?

I'm serious - I too see the percentages, but the why's behind the percentages are not known. Is it systemic racism that keeps one business from making more than another or having more customers or cash flow or net profits ? Maybe its where they started up, what they're selling, poorly run businesses etc 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Didn't read the article yet, but it looked like a JP Morgan article about how good JP Morgan is. 

 

[Caveman33]

I will 100% admit to blurring terms myself.   

My understanding is on the same page as the wiki definition:

In the United States, redlining is the systematic denial of various services to residents of specific, often racially associated, neighborhoods or communities, either explicitly or through the selective raising of prices. While the best known examples of redlining have involved denial of financial services such as banking or insurance, other services such as health care or even supermarkets have been denied to residents.

Mostly I see it in reference to blocking off areas of cities and denying access to black people - houses can't be sold to them, etc..    HERE is a great summary interview with the author of the book.  

ROTHSTEIN: Perhaps the best-known example is Levittown, just east of New York City, but there were subdivisions like this all over the country. What the federal government did in the 1940s and '50s, it came to a developer like Levitt, the Levitt family that built Levittown. That family could never have assembled the capital necessary to build 17,000 homes on its own.

What the federal government did, the FHA, is guarantee bank loans for construction and development to Levittown on condition that no homes be sold to African-Americans and that every home have a clause in its deed prohibiting resale to African-Americans.

Further in the interview he touches on the effects that would linger today of policies like that:

Those homes sold for about $8,000 a piece or $100,000 more or less in today's currency. African-Americans, working class families could have bought those homes. Today though, those homes sell for $300,000, $400,000. They're no longer affordable to working class families. In the ensuing two generations, the white families who moved into those homes gained that $200,000, $300,000 in equity appreciation.

African-Americans living in rented apartments, prohibited from moving to the suburbs, gained none of that appreciation. The result is that today nationwide, African-American incomes on average are about 60 percent of white incomes, but African-American wealth is about 5 to 7 percent of white wealth. That enormous difference is almost entirely attributable to unconstitutional federal housing policy practiced in the mid-20th century.

If you look at the history of revisions to the red-lining wikipedia article, it has 500 revisions, all beginning in the summer of 2015.  It's a rapidly expanding word but an older dictionary gives the definition as:

1.  drive with (a car engine) at or above its rated maximum rpm.

2. refuse (a loan or insurance) to someone because they live in an area deemed to be a poor financial risk.

As I implied in my previous post, I'm totally OK with 2.  Bad investments should bear their true cost not be subsidized by others.  Common sense says there is an interest rate where those bad loans become financially acceptable to the lender but those terms are terrible for the buyer.  Maybe such practices prevented people from making bad investments in ghettos where their children would be surrounded by crime?  The lenders drew red lines around bad neighborhoods, not bad people.

The Levitttown example appears to have been caused by a FHA policy promoting segregation, ""if a neighborhood is to retain stability, it is necessary that properties shall continue to be occupied by the same social and racial classes."  They wanted black people to support black business and white people to support white business.  A Supreme Court decision in 1949 nullified this policy, but the effects lingered among some builders/real estate agents.

I heard stories about this well known phenomenon as a child.  Black people started to move into a neighborhood and it caused white flight.  The white people started new neighborhoods further in the suburbs and prospered.  Meanwhile, quality of life in the old neighborhood continued to decline.  What caused this pattern to repeat so many times?  Aside from Greenwood, are there other examples of prosperous black neighborhoods?

 

[PinkydaPimp]

are there other examples of prosperous black neighborhoods?

here are a few:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3D4hSQcWbk

 

[PinkydaPimp]

also related:  Homeownership Is Rigged Against Black People. Instead, We Get "Da Hood" | The Amber Ruffin Show



Enjoy your weekends everyone!

 

[Caveman33]

here are a few:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3D4hSQcWbk

Is that supposed to be a comedy show?  She starts off by saying in 1912, two very bad things happened..(the Titanic and) "Two black teenagers were accused of rape.  They were tried, convicted, and sentenced to death in a single day.  And after they were executed, a mob of white men, terrorized, drove out, or killed all the black people in the surrounding area."

Wikipedia's "balanced" account:

"On September 9, 1912, Sleety Mae Crow, a white girl aged 18, was allegedly attacked in the afternoon by Ernest Knox, age 16. She was walking from home to her aunt's house nearby on Browns Bridge Road along the Forsyth-Hall county line. Knox was said to strike her from behind and drag her down a gully in the woods. Resisting, Crow pulled up a young dogwood tree by the roots. Knox allegedly raped the girl and struck her at least three times in the head with a large stone, crushing her skull.

Sleety Mae Crow's death has never been solved. After Knox allegedly told three friends what he had done, they went to see for themselves. They were Oscar Daniel, 17; Oscar's sister Trussie "Jane" Daniel, 22; and Jane's live-in boyfriend Robert "Big Rob" Edwards, 24, a close neighbor. They allegedly discussed disposing of Crow's body in the nearby Chattahoochee River, but reportedly decided that was too risky, leaving her in the woods. These allegations were never proven.

The next morning, searchers found Mae Crow at 9 a.m. She was half naked, covered with leaves, and lying face down in a pool of dry blood. She was still alive and breathing shallowly. At the scene of the alleged rape, searchers found a small pocket mirror that was said to belong to Ernest Knox. Police arrested him at home, taking him to the Gainesville, Georgia county jail to avoid the recent turmoil of Cumming. On the way Knox, after being subjected to a "form of torture known as mock lynching", confessed to having attacked Crow.

When word spread of the attack on Crow, a white lynch mob began to form that afternoon at the Gainesville jail. At midnight police officers took Knox by car to Atlanta to prevent a lynching.

Oscar Daniel, Jane Daniel, and Rob Edwards were all arrested the next day as suspects in Crow's attack, as was their neighbor Ed Collins, held as a witness. They were taken to the county jail in Cumming, where an estimated crowd of 2,000 whites had formed by the time Sheriff Reid got them to the jail.

Later that day a lynch mob of an estimated several hundred to 4,000 whites attacked the county jail. Some men gained entry and shot and killed Edwards in his cell, then dragged his body through the streets, and hanged him from a telephone pole on the Cumming town square. His body was so mutilated that early newspaper accounts identified it as Ed Collins. A deputy sheriff hid the other suspects in the alleged rape cases from the mob. Sheriff Reid had left the vicinity.

Trial

Charges against Trussie Daniel and Ed Collins were dismissed; she agreed to a plea bargain and testifying as a state witness against her brother and Knox. Knox and Oscar Daniel stood trial. Each of the youths was quickly convicted of rape and murder by the all-white jury.

On the following day, October 4, both teenagers were sentenced to death by hanging, scheduled for October 25. State law prohibited public hangings. The scheduled execution was to be viewed only by the victim's family, a minister, and law officers. Gallows were built off the square in Cumming. A fence erected around the gallows was burned down the night before the execution. A crowd estimated at between 5,000 and 8,000 gathered to watch what became a public hanging of the two youths. The total county population was around 12,000 at the time.

Aftermath: racial expulsion

In the following months, a small group of men called “Night Riders” terrorized black citizens, warning them to leave in 24 hours or be killed. Those who resisted were subjected to further harassment, including shots fired into their homes, or livestock killed. Some white residents tried to stop the Night Riders, but were unsuccessful. An estimated 98% of black residents of Forsyth County left. Some property owners were able to sell, likely at a loss. The renters and sharecroppers left to seek safer places. Those who had to abandon property, and failed to continue paying property tax, eventually lost their lands, and whites took it over. Many black properties ended up in white hands without a sale and without a legal transfer of title. Much of this land was in the village of Oscarville, Georgia. Eventually, this village is now under the waters of the Lake Lanier. This anti-black campaign was widespread across Appalachian Georgia, with Forsyth County being the third to expel its black population after Towns and Union, whilst whites soon afterwards expelled blacks from the surrounding counties of Fannin, Gilmer and Dawson."

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Is that supposed to be a comedy show?  She starts off by saying in 1912, two very bad things happened..(the Titanic and) "Two black teenagers were accused of rape.  They were tried, convicted, and sentenced to death in a single day.  And after they were executed, a mob of white men, terrorized, drove out, or killed all the black people in the surrounding area."

Wikipedia's "balanced" account:

"On September 9, 1912, Sleety Mae Crow, a white girl aged 18, was allegedly attacked in the afternoon by Ernest Knox, age 16. She was walking from home to her aunt's house nearby on Browns Bridge Road along the Forsyth-Hall county line. Knox was said to strike her from behind and drag her down a gully in the woods. Resisting, Crow pulled up a young dogwood tree by the roots. Knox allegedly raped the girl and struck her at least three times in the head with a large stone, crushing her skull.

Sleety Mae Crow's death has never been solved. After Knox allegedly told three friends what he had done, they went to see for themselves. They were Oscar Daniel, 17; Oscar's sister Trussie "Jane" Daniel, 22; and Jane's live-in boyfriend Robert "Big Rob" Edwards, 24, a close neighbor. They allegedly discussed disposing of Crow's body in the nearby Chattahoochee River, but reportedly decided that was too risky, leaving her in the woods. These allegations were never proven.

The next morning, searchers found Mae Crow at 9 a.m. She was half naked, covered with leaves, and lying face down in a pool of dry blood. She was still alive and breathing shallowly. At the scene of the alleged rape, searchers found a small pocket mirror that was said to belong to Ernest Knox. Police arrested him at home, taking him to the Gainesville, Georgia county jail to avoid the recent turmoil of Cumming. On the way Knox, after being subjected to a "form of torture known as mock lynching", confessed to having attacked Crow.

When word spread of the attack on Crow, a white lynch mob began to form that afternoon at the Gainesville jail. At midnight police officers took Knox by car to Atlanta to prevent a lynching.

Oscar Daniel, Jane Daniel, and Rob Edwards were all arrested the next day as suspects in Crow's attack, as was their neighbor Ed Collins, held as a witness. They were taken to the county jail in Cumming, where an estimated crowd of 2,000 whites had formed by the time Sheriff Reid got them to the jail.

Later that day a lynch mob of an estimated several hundred to 4,000 whites attacked the county jail. Some men gained entry and shot and killed Edwards in his cell, then dragged his body through the streets, and hanged him from a telephone pole on the Cumming town square. His body was so mutilated that early newspaper accounts identified it as Ed Collins. A deputy sheriff hid the other suspects in the alleged rape cases from the mob. Sheriff Reid had left the vicinity.

Trial

Charges against Trussie Daniel and Ed Collins were dismissed; she agreed to a plea bargain and testifying as a state witness against her brother and Knox. Knox and Oscar Daniel stood trial. Each of the youths was quickly convicted of rape and murder by the all-white jury.

On the following day, October 4, both teenagers were sentenced to death by hanging, scheduled for October 25. State law prohibited public hangings. The scheduled execution was to be viewed only by the victim's family, a minister, and law officers. Gallows were built off the square in Cumming. A fence erected around the gallows was burned down the night before the execution. A crowd estimated at between 5,000 and 8,000 gathered to watch what became a public hanging of the two youths. The total county population was around 12,000 at the time.

Aftermath: racial expulsion

In the following months, a small group of men called “Night Riders” terrorized black citizens, warning them to leave in 24 hours or be killed. Those who resisted were subjected to further harassment, including shots fired into their homes, or livestock killed. Some white residents tried to stop the Night Riders, but were unsuccessful. An estimated 98% of black residents of Forsyth County left. Some property owners were able to sell, likely at a loss. The renters and sharecroppers left to seek safer places. Those who had to abandon property, and failed to continue paying property tax, eventually lost their lands, and whites took it over. Many black properties ended up in white hands without a sale and without a legal transfer of title. Much of this land was in the village of Oscarville, Georgia. Eventually, this village is now under the waters of the Lake Lanier. This anti-black campaign was widespread across Appalachian Georgia, with Forsyth County being the third to expel its black population after Towns and Union, whilst whites soon afterwards expelled blacks from the surrounding counties of Fannin, Gilmer and Dawson."

There was another incident that also occurred not in this wiki:  https://www.npr.org/2016/09/15/494063372/the-racial-cleansing-that-drove-1-100-black-residents-out-of-forsyth-county-ga

Also in your post you note that land was taken or people had to sell at a loss.  Which goes to earlier discussion of how past racism can impact folks today.  These homes are underwater but imagine how many people were driven out of their homes or towns and had to take a loss or just straight up lose their home all while the aggressor gained a home and wealth.  Maybe their family still lives there and benefits from it today.   Fascinating.

And yes shes a comedian but the content was and is relevant. 

 

[Caveman33]

There was another incident that also occurred not in this wiki:  https://www.npr.org/2016/09/15/494063372/the-racial-cleansing-that-drove-1-100-black-residents-out-of-forsyth-county-ga

Also in your post you note that land was taken or people had to sell at a loss.  Which goes to earlier discussion of how past racism can impact folks today.  These homes are underwater but imagine how many people were driven out of their homes or towns and had to take a loss or just straight up lose their home all while the aggressor gained a home and wealth.  Maybe their family still lives there and benefits from it today.   Fascinating.

And yes shes a comedian but the content was and is relevant. 

I agree that past racism has undoubtedly hurt the generational wealth of black people.  I don't think there is a reasonable way to make restitution for that.  Determining who is deserving today for crimes to their ancestors, and how much money they are deserving of, seems unrealistic and what happens when other people, including whites, present equally compelling stories of how their ancestors were robbed or cheated and the lasting impact on their family wealth?  The best thing we can do today, IMO, is ensure that we have no longer have any discriminatory policies that prevent people from being treated equally.

I shared the wikipedia account to compare with what the comedian was saying.  I found no primary sources of information.  Everything easily found through Google is based on the 2016 book written by the liberal author interviewed in the NPR link you shared.  Even still, the wikipedia article offers a sharp contrast to the picture presented by the comedian.  Such biased people, right or left, offer no real value towards critical analyzing situations, IMO. 

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I shared the wikipedia account to compare with what the comedian was saying.  I found no primary sources of information.  Everything easily found through Google is based on the 2016 book written by the liberal author interviewed in the NPR link you shared.  Even still, the wikipedia article offers a sharp contrast to the picture presented by the comedian.  Such biased people, right or left, offer no real value towards critical analyzing situations, IMO. 

I didn’t see much of a sharp difference in the description.  Did a large white mob hang them?   Was the black population driven out?

I don't think there is a reasonable way to make restitution for that. 

We have made restitution to other populations for less  

i agree it’s not an easy thing to figure out the proper way to approach this but it appears you agree there is a problem  and that the past significantly contributed to the current state.  So how we fix it is really the question.  
 

also you have equally compelling stories of white people in America to slavery and the subsequent centuries of violence, systemic racism and oppression?  Please share.    

 

[Caveman33]

I didn’t see much of a sharp difference in the description.  Did a large white mob hang them?   Was the black population driven out?

We have made restitution to other populations for less  

i agree it’s not an easy thing to figure out the proper way to approach this but it appears you agree there is a problem  and that the past significantly contributed to the current state.  So how we fix it is really the question.  
 

also you have equally compelling stories of white people in America to slavery and the subsequent centuries of violence, systemic racism and oppression?  Please share.    

Well, one small story that I know of involves a few ancestors. In the 1830s, some Irish were imported to work on a section of railroad outside Philadelphia.  They labored throughout the day and were then transported back to a shanty camp.  Eventually it was reported back to Ireland that everyone in the camp had died of Cholera.  A couple decades ago, the descendant of someone involved in overseeing the Irish found official paperwork that contradicted the Cholera story.  Authorities dug up a mass grave by the railroad and identified many bones as belonging to the Irish workers but all had crushed skulls and bullet wounds.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Well, one small story that I know of involves a few ancestors. In the 1830s, some Irish were imported to work on a section of railroad outside Philadelphia.  They labored throughout the day and were then transported back to a shanty camp.  Eventually it was reported back to Ireland that everyone in the camp had died of Cholera.  A couple decades ago, the descendant of someone involved in overseeing the Irish found official paperwork that contradicted the Cholera story.  Authorities dug up a mass grave by the railroad and identified many bodies as belonging to the Irish workers but all had crushed skulls and bullet wounds.

ok.  If true thats horrible(id love to read more about that if you have a link).  But again, are you comparing that to centuries of oppression, violence, racism and enslavement as well as the fact that one group was forcibly brought here and one wasnt?  I think we can agree there is no comparison there. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

If you look at the history of revisions to the red-lining wikipedia article, it has 500 revisions, all beginning in the summer of 2015.  It's a rapidly expanding word but an older dictionary gives the definition as:

1.  drive with (a car engine) at or above its rated maximum rpm.

2. refuse (a loan or insurance) to someone because they live in an area deemed to be a poor financial risk.

As I implied in my previous post, I'm totally OK with 2.  Bad investments should bear their true cost not be subsidized by others.  Common sense says there is an interest rate where those bad loans become financially acceptable to the lender but those terms are terrible for the buyer.  Maybe such practices prevented people from making bad investments in ghettos where their children would be surrounded by crime?  The lenders drew red lines around bad neighborhoods, not bad people.

The Levitttown example appears to have been caused by a FHA policy promoting segregation, ""if a neighborhood is to retain stability, it is necessary that properties shall continue to be occupied by the same social and racial classes."  They wanted black people to support black business and white people to support white business.  A Supreme Court decision in 1949 nullified this policy, but the effects lingered among some builders/real estate agents.

I heard stories about this well known phenomenon as a child.  Black people started to move into a neighborhood and it caused white flight.  The white people started new neighborhoods further in the suburbs and prospered.  Meanwhile, quality of life in the old neighborhood continued to decline.  What caused this pattern to repeat so many times?  Aside from Greenwood, are there other examples of prosperous black neighborhoods?

This thread and the CRT thread have beaten me down.   I am less interested in bickering about the definition of redlining, more interested in if the things I described happened or not, if the government was behind it, and what the implications of that is.  

There was things like you are describing going on, and the things I have posted have been shown to have happened as well - specifically not letting blacks buy in certain areas, blockbusting, etc.   Whether or not we call them "redlining" or not is secondary.