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Guns, Murder, Race & Income (1 Viewer)

PinkydaPimp said:
ok.  If true thats horrible(id love to read more about that if you have a link).  But again, are you comparing that to centuries of oppression, violence, racism and enslavement as well as the fact that one group was forcibly brought here and one wasnt?  I think we can agree there is no comparison there. 
https://hiddencityphila.org/2020/10/uncovering-murder-on-the-main-line-and-the-victims-of-duffys-cut/

Like most stories, the truth is hard to pin down.  This is someone's version.  Another medical examiner said the 'blunt force' trauma to the bones is actually natural decay.  They might be right, and that same logic might apply to other old bones that we have modernly declared to show blunt force trauma.  It's unlikely we will ever know the full truth about things that happened hundreds of years ago.

Life is not fair.  Nearly every race or ethnic group can share similar stories.  In the last 250 years of American history, it seems blacks have had it worst.  As with other groups, experiences among black slaves varied, and the exploitation began with their own countrymen.  Human nature is ugly.  This tangent started when I asked for examples of prosperous black towns similar to how Greenwood was described. 

Most ethnic groups formed neighborhoods in America.  It is still something we see today.  I don't think that racism and the residual effects of discriminatory government programs are still causing black neighborhoods to consistently have higher rates of crime than comparable neighborhoods. 

 
This thread and the CRT thread have beaten me down.   I am less interested in bickering about the definition of redlining, more interested in if the things I described happened or not, if the government was behind it, and what the implications of that is. 
Been away but circling back to this thread.  Yes, I'm tired of the CRT nonsense too (actually don't know much about it other than its two sides bickering).

Like you, I'm not interested in the definition of redlining in this thread.

However, unlike you, in this thread I wasn't interested in if the government was behind redlining or if it was good.  I explained this in my earlier posts.  I am accepting of the fact that redlining, for example, happened (The Commish actually provided me a good link on government findings about redlining a while ago that I thought was very insightful).  Redlining wasn't good, although in many cases it imo was not about racism but it was about taking advantage of people that could be taken advantage of...humans like to do that to anybody they can...different discussion.

I'm obviously accepting of a lot of really bad things besides redlining happened.  They weren't good and their impacts live on today.  I'm accepting of the fact there are still bad things going on today.  There are still racists today.  AND...all these things are factors in outcomes we see today.  We have these conversations, around things like education...and they are good conversations and part of solutions, but not the only part of solutions.

My focus is on how do we move forward and get optimal results.  There are three large elements to me. 

  1. The role government should play in creating an environment that allows/enables individuals to succeed.  My intent was not to talk about this here.  I think it is a large element in the equation.  However, IMO, in 2021 the government has done much to create a basic environment that helps individual succeed with a basic floor (anti-discrimination laws, free education, welfare, housing assistance, etc).  I think there is a great conversation to be had around is the government doing enough.  I think there are always opportunities to improve, I've participated in these discussions in other threads.  I think improvement would help driver better outcomes.  However, in 2021 I do not think the government provision of services is the primary driver in negative outcomes for individuals or groups of individuals.  Or said differently, I think we are at the point of diminishing returns in terms of what the government can/should do (particularly when bounded by philosophical differences in opinion on the role of government in creating equity).    The educational results of poor asian children in NYC (links provided earlier) helps support that if you are poor (poorer than black and hispanics) and can only access the same resources...you can succeed.  Its not easy and takes work (see asian studying time).  Its takes a culture that promotes and supports that, which exists in the Asian community.  On some fronts, I think government policies designed to help...have actually had negative unintended consequences.  When I expand the definition of government to include what our politicians say and focus on...I think they are not helping...and this starts to get to the culture discussion.
2.  The individual.  We observe incredible differences in individual performance.  My brothers outcomes have been vastly different from mine, despite parallel starting points in terms of education, parents, household income...and to some extent genes.  We see large differences in economic performance in the US amongst white populations across different ancestry (british vs german vs french, etc).  There's a lot to this discussion and honestly it has to explain some variances in outcomes, but that wasn't my intent to discuss.

3.  How societal norms, aka "culture" influences outcomes.  This is what I was focusing on.  I believe it is the primary "influenceable" driver of how we can improve outcomes today (NOT THE ONLY DRIVER).  Its become the hardest one to crack because its a toxic conversation that gets shut down.  Nobody wants to talk about it.  Its also a conversation that is completely handled the wrong way by "conservatives"...and then unproductively piled on and manipulated by "liberals".  I want to avoid that.  It is about "us" and how we get better.  It is easier and feels better to blame what the government is doing today...its the governments problem not mine and they should take more of that guys stuff to solve it.  Its not that kids need to study more, or the parents should expect more from them...the books and teachers need to be better.  What right do I have, as a person who shares the same melanin level as people who did bad things, to observe the outcomes of a group of people with more melanin and say the solution is anything other than the governments to solve.  Or that the outcomes are anything other than the direct result of past wrongs and nothing to do with our "environment today".  Maybe I have no right, but that thinking is exactly what is preventing our societal and political leaders...or any of us...from supporting a better culture.  Its created a culture where white people can only see black people as victims of circumstance, (which imo influences how black people see themselves) and any social commentary around this is a third rail.

Will expand a bit more on culture this weekend.

 
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Ben Shapiro completely destroys race hustler Malcolm Nance here.  Even Bill Maher was like WTF to Nance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwgsbZ1MsAE

Nance resorted to personal attacks and strawmen and was completely devoid of a cogent argument defending CRT.
Does Ben Shapiro ever smile?  It seems like he's in a perpetually bad mood.

Malcolm Nance said we need to talk more about the bad things that happened in the 1800s to blacks, native americans, chinese, etc.  He also gained big applause with the juxtaposition of his soldier great great grandfather and Shapiro.  His main point seemed to be that racism is baked into every part of our society and any time you see blacks under performing or under represented, it's because of racism.  I think some of the posters here share that point of view. 

Shapiro credited Nance with succeeding through merit, but I looked him up and he's retired military.  It might be interesting to look up statistics on senior enlisted in the military to see how fairly the groups are represented.  

 
His main point seemed to be that racism is baked into every part of our society and any time you see blacks under performing or under represented, it's because of racism.  I think some of the posters here share that point of view. 
Who?  Im not sure ive seen this POV here though ive seen it accused multiple times.  Now if you replace "any time" with often, or dis-proportionally, then i somewhat agree.  I think you have to zoom out to make that case, individual instances of under performing dont prove that. Note, I haven't watched the video yet, ill watch it on my flight tomorrow, but did he say "anytime" specifically?

As far as racism being baked into every part of our society, i think what is meant by that(again i havent watched the video so im going by your statement only) is that unconscious bias is baked into everyone and therefore every part of society therefore there are barriers with regard to race in most systems.  That doesnt mean everyone is racist or all white people are racist.  I do know some feel every system is racist, im not sure i would say every, but then again i dont think i have thought about every single system.  Most major systems?  Sure  i agree there.  To what degree, likely varies however.

Just level setting my stance here.

 
Who?  Im not sure ive seen this POV here though ive seen it accused multiple times.  Now if you replace "any time" with often, or dis-proportionally, then i somewhat agree.  I think you have to zoom out to make that case, individual instances of under performing dont prove that. Note, I haven't watched the video yet, ill watch it on my flight tomorrow, but did he say "anytime" specifically?

As far as racism being baked into every part of our society, i think what is meant by that(again i havent watched the video so im going by your statement only) is that unconscious bias is baked into everyone and therefore every part of society therefore there are barriers with regard to race in most systems.  That doesnt mean everyone is racist or all white people are racist.  I do know some feel every system is racist, im not sure i would say every, but then again i dont think i have thought about every single system.  Most major systems?  Sure  i agree there.  To what degree, likely varies however.

Just level setting my stance here.


Instead of everytime how about more often than not?  That seems to be the go to assumption for many posters.  

 
:rolleyes:   On the "completely destroys" crap.   Annoying trait that Shapiro has as well.  

Love the part where he comes off as a complete doosh as he brags about sleeping on his piles of money.   

Long story short, I love the show, but it's not the best to get a decent discussion or debate going, especially when he has on 2 people like that who obviously don't like each other and has to try to get to different topics.  

 
Does Ben Shapiro ever smile?  It seems like he's in a perpetually bad mood.

Malcolm Nance said we need to talk more about the bad things that happened in the 1800s to blacks, native americans, chinese, etc.  He also gained big applause with the juxtaposition of his soldier great great grandfather and Shapiro.  His main point seemed to be that racism is baked into every part of our society and any time you see blacks under performing or under represented, it's because of racism.  I think some of the posters here share that point of view. 

Shapiro credited Nance with succeeding through merit, but I looked him up and he's retired military.  It might be interesting to look up statistics on senior enlisted in the military to see how fairly the groups are represented.  


Except we do talk about the bad things that happened in the 1800's.  I remember being taught all the stuff THEY talked about on the show.  I agree that history should encompass all things, but there is only so much time and so many things we can teach students.  I would say just the major points of history, not every time a black person was mistreated.

And Nance's shtick about his great grandfather had ZERO to do with the conversation and was irrelevant and was nothing but red-meat for Maher's audience.  It wasn't germane to the conversation at all but was rather a weak attempt at "feelings".

Nance talked about how he came across a bunch of idiots in the military and the irony was completely lost on him. All he did was make personal attacks and strawmen, IMO.

 
Instead of everytime how about more often than not?  That seems to be the go to assumption for many posters.  


To be fair, as I have said several times to SC, there is also sometimes a pretty big difference between what posters are actually saying and what people are claiming they are saying.   I include myself in that as well, but I often wonder after many years of people talking in here and debating, how accurately we could present other poster's thoughts and positions on topics.  

 
I think we need to define this.  What is your definition of culture?  Because some, not you but some people will use this as a way to say or imply a particular race is inferior or superior.  Which we know is not the case.  So i want to make sure we have a clear definition of what culture is.  How is culture created?  How is it shaped?  Can perceived culture(misinterpreting, stereotyping, etc) help you?  Can it hurt you?  And if it is the cause of all of these problems, how do you fix culture? 
This is a good starting point to build on and frankly I'm going to riff here and as I've said before much of this is not about race...but the impacts are particularly acute in the black community.

It is odd to me that there is so much "debate" about what culture is and needing a clear definition of it.  It's like asking for a clear definition of the beauty of our planet.  I'm not sure I can do that, but I can tell you of some incredibly amazing #### I've seen.  I can give you some examples of culture...I'm sure you've seen them just as you've seen the beauty of our planet...but there's this overall (not just you) "I don't get it".

I think this is symptomatic of the overall issue which is that we're afraid to really talk about it because some people will get upset...so we let those very same people define our culture for us.  We're afraid to say, "this is what our culture should be".  This is a "US" thing, not a black/white thing in isolation.  The extension of "feminism" is a bigger element than a race element imo.

Our culture overall is shifting more to this odd mix of "everyone is equal", "you don't need anyone", "but who you really need is the government"....and away from things like "men should treat women well (hint because there no longer is a difference)",  "you control your destiny", "men are needed / two parent is vital to kids".

Individually each of those can be held up as examples of progress and of course in many ways they are, but imo they are and have been distorting over a long period of time with bad consequences, which I believe much is borne out in the outcomes/data.  

 
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This is a good starting point to build on and frankly I'm going to riff here and as I've said before much of this is not about race...but the impacts are particularly acute in the black community.

It is odd to me that there is so much "debate" about what culture is and needing a clear definition of it.  It's like asking for a clear definition of the beauty of our planet.  I'm not sure I can do that, but I can tell you of some incredibly amazing #### I've seen.  I can give you some examples of culture...I'm sure you've seen them just as you've seen the beauty of our planet...but there's this overall (not just you) "I don't get it".

I think this is symptomatic of the overall issue which is that we're afraid to really talk about it because some people will get upset...so we let those very same people define our culture for us.  We're afraid to say, "this is what our culture should be".  This is a "US" thing, not a black/white thing in isolation.  The extension of "feminism" is a bigger element than a race element imo.

Our culture overall is shifting more to this odd mix of "everyone is equal", "you don't need anyone", "but who you really need is the government"....and away from things like "men should treat women well (hint because there no longer is a difference)",  "you control your destiny", "men are needed / two parent is vital to kids".

Individually each of those can be held up as examples of progress and of course in many ways they are, but imo they are and have been distorting over a long period of time with bad consequences, which I believe much is borne out in the outcomes/data.  


See these are statements that baffle me a bit, but probably points to our experiences, our family/friends, where we get info, etc..  I don't feel like I am getting those messages that you claim our culture is shifting towards.  

Just curious what you and others are frustrated about, and specifically since you brought it up, what do you think we should be saying that our US culture should be that is so controversial? 

 
Who?  Im not sure ive seen this POV here though ive seen it accused multiple times.  Now if you replace "any time" with often, or dis-proportionally, then i somewhat agree.  I think you have to zoom out to make that case, individual instances of under performing dont prove that. Note, I haven't watched the video yet, ill watch it on my flight tomorrow, but did he say "anytime" specifically?

As far as racism being baked into every part of our society, i think what is meant by that(again i havent watched the video so im going by your statement only) is that unconscious bias is baked into everyone and therefore every part of society therefore there are barriers with regard to race in most systems.  That doesnt mean everyone is racist or all white people are racist.  I do know some feel every system is racist, im not sure i would say every, but then again i dont think i have thought about every single system.  Most major systems?  Sure  i agree there.  To what degree, likely varies however.

Just level setting my stance here.


I also think that what is meant or implied is that a lot of our systems have a baked in bias of the battle of haves and have nots.  I think all of us would probably agree with that sentiment.   Now, just extend out that statistically the black community is more effected by the "have not" part of the equation, and by default there is an underlying racism built into many systems.  

 
Edited to add:  ####, I’m going full GGekko here, sorry for so much rambling.

The first thing I noted in the odd cultural mix is that “everyone is equal”.  No...we're not.  We all should be treated equally under the law, and it ends there. 

I'm not going to get into the performance of groups based on inherited traits because its a rabbit hole that frankly I'm not educated enough on and don’t care to be...but more importantly I am positive that all races, genders, religions can achieve in the US.  But we have for example this idea that men and women are equal.  And it was borne out of the fight for women to be treated equally as men and seen as equals…which is of course the right fight.

But it has mutated into the genders are the same (and heading to there is no real gender).  It has mutated into having a conversation in another thread here where the gist I hear from left leaning posters is “yah, a man in the house is ideal but I don’t really know why…because women can do it all”.  And someone will have an example of being raised by a single mother and turning out well.

All things being equal I believe a woman can raise a child well, even fabulously depending on the woman.  All things being equal besides gender I think a man and a woman can raise a child better (because two are much better than one and because yes, there are gender roles that have value).  When you do this across millions of families…it has a tremendous impact on outcomes of children.  This is acutely seen in the black community given the greatly exacerbated rate of single motherhood.  THIS…IS…HUGE.

IMO, this was all exacerbated with legalized abortion and I’ve seen studies that specifically time the sharp downward slope in marriages with abortion rights.  That was further exacerbated by the implementation of a host of government programs around the same time to support single mothers.  Both policies have sound basis and I wouldn’t advocate for wholesale changing them.  But our culture wasn’t able to process the changes that rapidly in a positive way.

These changes supported a culture of “the woman can decide to keep the baby or not…so it’s hers to raise if she keeps it”.  “I’m no longer honor bound to marry her”.  “Getting women pregnant is not as big of a deal anymore”.  It supported a culture of “government got that”…so not my problem or even worse “the mother is financially better off if I’m not married to her”.

At the same time feminism is mixing equality with…you don’t need a man, you can do it all, you are a hero doing it all…we celebrate the women doing it all themselves.

And in our culture…our music in particular…men treat women like ####.  There’s just no way to sugar coat it.  Men always treated other men like ####…but now hell women are on equal footing so fair game (and frankly it almost seems the target of disdain).  Well wait, that’s only music, has no impact on real life or how people really behave.  Kids listen to it all and then when they take the headphones off go right to treating women like gentlemen and study for 3hrs so stop clutching yer pearl.  You listened to Iron Maiden as a kid and didn’t worship satan right.  OK, sure, you tell yourself that.

I have a daughter, she listens to a lot of rap/hip hop.  Frankly, I listen to some of it too lol…because its good.  The beat, a lot of the lyrics…I get it.  But its also terrible.  My daughter has two parents that work relentlessly to counter everything she absorbs to keep her on the right track.  Other kids are not as fortunate, black kids are much less likely to have two parents fighting that fight.  Frankly, IMO they are must less like to have a parent that believes it’s a fight to have.

We don’t talk about this.  Why?  Well, to say a man is needed is to say that women can’t do it all…or…gasp…not the same or equal to men.  We can’t say men don’t have children out of wedlock because…well I don’t even know why we can’t.  Because its racist?  Because sex is inevitable, and we don’t want to repress sex?

We don’t shout from the rooftops and hold our families and our communities accountable.  Every politician, community leader, social leader should be saying NON-STOP (added emphasis because someone will say “oh they say it you just don’t hear it”…then THEY ARE NOT SAYING IT ENOUGH):

“Men, you are vital to your child’s life.  You cannot have a child out of wedlock.  You are failing in your responsibility as a man if you do”

“Women, men are vital to raising your child well, chose the right man.  You child is much more likely to be left behind if you raise a child by yourself”.

We should be celebrating the people that do this…not a narrative that is over-indexed on the single mother heroes because that supports the feminist cultural narrative.

Last note before anyone reading this gets to take a nap.  Generalization, I have no data:  More white parents are drilling this into their children than black parents.  They know this is hugely critical to long term success.  They know that a 18yr old having a baby is a not good for the 18yr old or the baby.  Like as close to catastrophic not good as it gets.  This mindset is literally the most basic cheat code to success.

This is not a knock on black parents and that’s its some “inherent” thing.  It’s a systemic thing.  It’s the real systemic issue in 2021.  White parents, on average, have invested so much in their children (time and money) and have a different set of expectations.  They’re more likely to have grown up with these expectations themselves.  Its generational behavior.

The only thing I think we can do on this specific front in the short term is that every politician, community leader, social leader should be communicating this to the black community NON-STOP.  WE ALL NEED TO DO IT AND DEMAND OUR LEADERS DO IT...not speculate on what culture is with what seems like some intent of debunking it.  These groups need to augment the black parents on this topic.  They are not.  They are failing for fear of being called racist or coons, or whatever.  All of the oxygen is being taken up on CRT, unarmed police shootings, white women walking dogs without leashes, fascists, adding more letters to LBQT2S+ and white kids smiling at native americans.

Politicians ain’t talking about it.  They have a hammer, and its government spending and government replacing the parents.  The more they hit this problem with a hammer the more they are distorting the base materials...and the more it needs fixing.  We all know the answer, gotta swing the hammer harder.

 
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See these are statements that baffle me a bit, but probably points to our experiences, our family/friends, where we get info, etc..  I don't feel like I am getting those messages that you claim our culture is shifting towards.  

Just curious what you and others are frustrated about, and specifically since you brought it up, what do you think we should be saying that our US culture should be that is so controversial? 
Well yah, my friends and family don't say that dumb ####...but thats my (and probably your) systemic advantage.

If you don't see these themes in our political and social discourse I really can't educate you on it.  

 
Well yah, my friends and family don't say that dumb ####...but thats my (and probably your) systemic advantage.

If you don't see these themes in our political and social discourse I really can't educate you on it.  
I've been clear about how isolated I am on SM, etc..  Almost to a fault.   

About the only time I hear or read stuff like that it's usually from the right leaning people on here and their interpretation of what others are saying.   I don't get that impression from others from their actual posts though.   Just an odd dynamic that I find interesting.  

 
Culture.  Acting White.

Here is former President Obama talking about "Acting White".  Look at how carefully he, a black man and the most powerful person on the planet, has to dance around the topic.  I'm sure he took a ton of heat for it.

Does anyone believe that this in not ingrained in large segments of the black community...particularly those at the lowest socio-economic end?  How much more can you spend on books and teachers when they lead to the dreaded outcome of "being white"?

Listen to the host at the end talk about her experience growing up.  I don't see how she isn't an outlier.  Someone who had the internal fortitude to buck "culture" and supported by a father that told her don't listen to that ####.  How many other kids have succumbed to listening to it.

How can we look at outcomes and in isolation say its all some combination of "white racism" and "not enough spending on education" when we have this huge cultural paradox staring us in the face?

 
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Edited to add:  ####, I’m going full GGekko here, sorry for so much rambling.

The first thing I noted in the odd cultural mix is that “everyone is equal”.  No...we're not.  We all should be treated equally under the law, and it ends there. 

I'm not going to get into the performance of groups based on inherited traits because its a rabbit hole that frankly I'm not educated enough on and don’t care to be...but more importantly I am positive that all races, genders, religions can achieve in the US.  But we have for example this idea that men and women are equal.  And it was borne out of the fight for women to be treated equally as men and seen as equals…which is of course the right fight.

But it has mutated into the genders are the same (and heading to there is no real gender).  It has mutated into having a conversation in another thread here where the gist I hear from left leaning posters is “yah, a man in the house is ideal but I don’t really know why…because women can do it all”.  And someone will have an example of being raised by a single mother and turning out well.

All things being equal I believe a woman can raise a child well, even fabulously depending on the woman.  All things being equal besides gender I think a man and a woman can raise a child better (because two are much better than one and because yes, there are gender roles that have value).  When you do this across millions of families…it has a tremendous impact on outcomes of children.  This is acutely seen in the black community given the greatly exacerbated rate of single motherhood.  THIS…IS…HUGE.

IMO, this was all exacerbated with legalized abortion and I’ve seen studies that specifically time the sharp downward slope in marriages with abortion rights.  That was further exacerbated by the implementation of a host of government programs around the same time to support single mothers.  Both policies have sound basis and I wouldn’t advocate for wholesale changing them.  But our culture wasn’t able to process the changes that rapidly in a positive way.

These changes supported a culture of “the woman can decide to keep the baby or not…so it’s hers to raise if she keeps it”.  “I’m no longer honor bound to marry her”.  “Getting women pregnant is not as big of a deal anymore”.  It supported a culture of “government got that”…so not my problem or even worse “the mother is financially better off if I’m not married to her”.

At the same time feminism is mixing equality with…you don’t need a man, you can do it all, you are a hero doing it all…we celebrate the women doing it all themselves.

And in our culture…our music in particular…men treat women like ####.  There’s just no way to sugar coat it.  Men always treated other men like ####…but now hell women are on equal footing so fair game (and frankly it almost seems the target of disdain).  Well wait, that’s only music, has no impact on real life or how people really behave.  Kids listen to it all and then when they take the headphones off go right to treating women like gentlemen and study for 3hrs so stop clutching yer pearl.  You listened to Iron Maiden as a kid and didn’t worship satan right.  OK, sure, you tell yourself that.

I have a daughter, she listens to a lot of rap/hip hop.  Frankly, I listen to some of it too lol…because its good.  The beat, a lot of the lyrics…I get it.  But its also terrible.  My daughter has two parents that work relentlessly to counter everything she absorbs to keep her on the right track.  Other kids are not as fortunate, black kids are much less likely to have two parents fighting that fight.  Frankly, IMO they are must less like to have a parent that believes it’s a fight to have.

We don’t talk about this.  Why?  Well, to say a man is needed is to say that women can’t do it all…or…gasp…not the same or equal to men.  We can’t say men don’t have children out of wedlock because…well I don’t even know why we can’t.  Because its racist?  Because sex is inevitable, and we don’t want to repress sex?

We don’t shout from the rooftops and hold our families and our communities accountable.  Every politician, community leader, social leader should be saying NON-STOP (added emphasis because someone will say “oh they say it you just don’t hear it”…then THEY ARE NOT SAYING IT ENOUGH):

“Men, you are vital to your child’s life.  You cannot have a child out of wedlock.  You are failing in your responsibility as a man if you do”

“Women, men are vital to raising your child well, chose the right man.  You child is much more likely to be left behind if you raise a child by yourself”.

We should be celebrating the people that do this…not a narrative that is over-indexed on the single mother heroes because that supports the feminist cultural narrative.

Last note before anyone reading this gets to take a nap.  Generalization, I have no data:  More white parents are drilling this into their children than black parents.  They know this is hugely critical to long term success.  They know that a 18yr old having a baby is a not good for the 18yr old or the baby.  Like as close to catastrophic not good as it gets.  This mindset is literally the most basic cheat code to success.

This is not a knock on black parents and that’s its some “inherent” thing.  It’s a systemic thing.  It’s the real systemic issue in 2021.  White parents, on average, have invested so much in their children (time and money) and have a different set of expectations.  They’re more likely to have grown up with these expectations themselves.  Its generational behavior.

The only thing I think we can do on this specific front in the short term is that every politician, community leader, social leader should be communicating this to the black community NON-STOP.  These groups need to augment the black parents on this topic.  They are not.  They are failing for fear of being called racist or coons, or whatever.  All of the oxygen is being taken up on CRT, unarmed police shootings, white women walking dogs without leashes, fascists, adding more letters to LBQT2S+ and white kids smiling at native americans.

Politicians ain’t talking about it.  They have a hammer, and its government spending and government replacing the parents.  The more they hit this problem with a hammer the more they are distorting the base materials...and the more it needs fixing.  We all know the answer, gotta swing the hammer harder.
This post is so effing great I nominate it for post of the year.

Well done, djmich. 

 
Culture.  Acting White.

Here is former President Obama talking about "Acting White".  Look at how carefully he, a black man and the most powerful person on the planet, has to dance around the topic.  I'm sure he took a ton of heat for it.

Does anyone believe that this in not ingrained in large segments of the black community...particularly those at the lowest socio-economic end?  How much more can you spend on books and teachers when they lead to the dreaded outcome of "being white"?

Listen to the host at the end talk about her experience growing up.  I don't see how she isn't an outlier.  Someone who had the internal fortitude to buck "culture" and supported by a father than told her don't listen to that ####.  How many other kids have succumbed to listening to it.

How can we look at outcomes and in isolation say its all some combination of "white racism" and "not enough spending on education" when we have this huge cultural paradox staring us in the face?
I think that culture is the biggest contributor to the disparity in races in regards to crime and education.  There are certainly other variables involved.  Many people will discount my opinion, given that I am white, and saying that culture is the biggest issue is similar to saying individuals need to take personal responsibility for their choices. 

How do we define the differences between "white" and "black" culture?  I don't know that I can and if I tried, other posters might accuse me of being a troll.  Recently a black friend of mine commented on how she didn't want me to see 'that side of her.'  I can understand her concern as I have experienced black girls who would act "white" around me and then talk and act a different way around their friends.  It was a major turn-off.  Similarly, most of the black guys I have befriended over the years are ones who would be accused of "acting white."  Speaking with proper grammar is considered acting white.  Until this cultural mindset changes, I don't see how the situation can improve.

 
Who?  Im not sure ive seen this POV here though ive seen it accused multiple times.  Now if you replace "any time" with often, or dis-proportionally, then i somewhat agree.  I think you have to zoom out to make that case, individual instances of under performing dont prove that. Note, I haven't watched the video yet, ill watch it on my flight tomorrow, but did he say "anytime" specifically?

As far as racism being baked into every part of our society, i think what is meant by that(again i havent watched the video so im going by your statement only) is that unconscious bias is baked into everyone and therefore every part of society therefore there are barriers with regard to race in most systems.  That doesnt mean everyone is racist or all white people are racist.  I do know some feel every system is racist, im not sure i would say every, but then again i dont think i have thought about every single system.  Most major systems?  Sure  i agree there.  To what degree, likely varies however.

Just level setting my stance here.
You are correct, I should have said most of the time, rather than any time.  I would attribute that POV to both you and Karma but obviously that is just my perception based on our discussions so I recognize that you may not agree.  In the case of Malcolm Nance, it is my impression that he feels racism has held him back in life.  He's had some books published and talks on TV, but he would have achieved more if not for being discriminated on the basis of his skin.  

Why does this POV bother me so much?  In addition to it conflicting with what I have experienced in life, I also think a victim mentality is detrimental to individuals.  The most racist people I have encountered in life, white, black, etc, are usually the same people who would say they have experienced a lot of racism.  People like Nance are making others see racism everywhere.  The worst experience I've had with police came at the hands of a black cop.  Before I thought it was bad luck, now I understand that I was a victim of racism.

A relative compared BLM to the cultural revolution in China.  They could not have been more wrong, IMO.  I want to see a cultural revolution, changes that improve the lives of all poor people.  Black people make up a big chunk of that group and all of us poor people need to unite together if we ever want to take on the wealthy that control both parties.  Focusing on race will just keep us divided and ensure that no major progress is made.

 
Those of you are that claim culture is the primary factor.  A few questions.

1.  How is culture created or formed in your opinion?

2.  Are you saying these bad cultural traits are "black culture?"  The culture of those in poverty?  The culture of those who have been/are oppressed?  What culture are we referring to so that i can be clear?

 
Those of you are that claim culture is the primary factor.  A few questions.

1.  How is culture created or formed in your opinion?

2.  Are you saying these bad cultural traits are "black culture?"  The culture of those in poverty?  The culture of those who have been/are oppressed?  What culture are we referring to so that i can be clear?
Only because I've posted on this and you didn't address me by name, but I think I've elaborated on all of this several times in depth, particularly your point #2 in my dissertation above lol.  Do you want me to restate or are you asking other posters?

 
Only because I've posted on this and you didn't address me by name, but I think I've elaborated on all of this several times in depth, particularly your point #2 in my dissertation above lol.  Do you want me to restate or are you asking other posters?
maybe i missed answers to those specific questions.  mind quoting it?  I didnt have a chance to read your entire rant. 

 
maybe i missed answers to those specific questions.  mind quoting it?  I didnt have a chance to read your entire rant. 
OK, well I'll let you read it before I re-write it and multi-quote it lol.

You don't have to read it, but let me know if it doesn't make sense after you do...you're asking super broad questions that are hard to answer in soundbytes...hence the diatribe (sounds more educated than rant!). 

Cliff notes.  Its not just a black thing, it's not "inherent" in black people, it's not "black peoples fault"...but the black community is disproportionally impacted.  It's essentially "systemic cultural disadvantage".  And we're not allowed to talk about it.  Specifically 100% of my focus in terms of changing the outcomes going forward is that WE and OUR LEADERS need to talk about it.

There are some instances where it is isolated in the black community (see Obama "acting white" post right above)...although I'd say even this thinking has impact beyond the black community.  This was one small "talk about it" in an Ocean of avoid the topic all together.

 
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We don’t shout from the rooftops and hold our families and our communities accountable.  Every politician, community leader, social leader should be saying NON-STOP (added emphasis because someone will say “oh they say it you just don’t hear it”…then THEY ARE NOT SAYING IT ENOUGH):

“Men, you are vital to your child’s life.  You cannot have a child out of wedlock.  You are failing in your responsibility as a man if you do”

“Women, men are vital to raising your child well, chose the right man.  You child is much more likely to be left behind if you raise a child by yourself”.

We should be celebrating the people that do this…not a narrative that is over-indexed on the single mother heroes because that supports the feminist cultural narrative.
Single Moms and Democrat Party

Think this in a nutshell captures why we, particularly the democrat party, cannot speak out strongly in support of two parent, two gender, families.

More often than not, when I tell people that I’m a single mother by choice, they say “Good for you!” Politicians who recognize and support these shifts in the shapes of the American family will gain more votes.

All about the votes...outcomes be damned.

 
OK, well I'll let you read it before I re-write it and multi-quote it lol.

You don't have to read it, but let me know if it doesn't make sense after you do...you're asking super broad questions that are hard to answer in soundbytes...hence the diatribe (sounds more educated than rant!). 

Cliff notes.  Its not just a black thing, it's not "inherent" in black people, it's not "black peoples fault"...but the black community is disproportionally impacted.  It's essentially "systemic cultural disadvantage".  And we're not allowed to talk about it.

There are some instances where it is isolated in the black community (see Obama "acting white").


Systemic cultural disadvantage, sure sounds like another term for systemic racism to me.  :shrug:    not sure why we wouldnt be allowed to talk about it.  I think where it gets "touchy" is when people try to paint it specifically as black culture because  that certainly isnt the case.  

Ok so i dont see an answer to my first question.  How is culture created or formed? Like, how did it begin to form initially?  What caused it to grow? You said they arent inherit so they had to be formed by something.  Would you agree environment(the people you interact with) is one thing that forms culture?  You mention govt programs, is slavery a govt program?  Wouldnt the original cause to most of what you are attributing to the black community be slavery and insertion info poverty?  Prevention of upward mobility?  Didnt that come first?

 
Single Moms and Democrat Party

Think this in a nutshell captures why we, particularly the democrat party, cannot speak out strongly in support of two parent, two gender, families.

More often than not, when I tell people that I’m a single mother by choice, they say “Good for you!” Politicians who recognize and support these shifts in the shapes of the American family will gain more votes.

All about the votes...outcomes be damned.
I guess I agree with the premise of supporting all families.  I support two parent, 2 gender, families as well as every other type of house hold that is trying their best to raise kids or take care of themselves.

 
Systemic cultural disadvantage, sure sounds like another term for systemic racism to me.  :shrug:    not sure why we wouldnt be allowed to talk about it.  I think where it gets "touchy" is when people try to paint it specifically as black culture because  that certainly isnt the case.  

Ok so i dont see an answer to my first question.  How is culture created or formed? Like, how did it begin to form initially?  What caused it to grow? You said they arent inherit so they had to be formed by something.  Would you agree environment(the people you interact with) is one thing that forms culture?  You mention govt programs, is slavery a govt program?  Wouldnt the original cause to most of what you are attributing to the black community be slavery and insertion info poverty?  Prevention of upward mobility?  Didnt that come first?
What I refer to as "black culture" isn't exclusive to black people.  I agree that more specifically it is found among poor urban people, a group that is predominantly black.  Rap music promotes this culture.  Suburban kids enjoy rap music and they will try to emulate and appropriate the culture at times.  

This culture may very well have its roots in slavery.  We should consider and acknowledge where the culture began as that may help us figure out how best to encourage a shift in culture that is more positive for society and the individuals themselves.

 
What I refer to as "black culture" isn't exclusive to black people.  I agree that more specifically it is found among poor urban people, a group that is predominantly black.  Rap music promotes this culture.  Suburban kids enjoy rap music and they will try to emulate and appropriate the culture at times.  

This culture may very well have its roots in slavery.  We should consider and acknowledge where the culture began as that may help us figure out how best to encourage a shift in culture that is more positive for society and the individuals themselves.
Do you feel rap music is a problem?  How is it different from movies?  Also does it promote the culture or does it simply talk about the culture in which they live or grew up in?  
 

 
Systemic cultural disadvantage, sure sounds like another term for systemic racism to me.
OK.  Let's just say in all instances.  Let's say that one of the norms in the black community is that if you speak proper English and study hard you are "acting white".  Lets say its also because systemic racism.  Can we then discuss how to change that expectation?

 not sure why we wouldnt be allowed to talk about it.  I think where it gets "touchy" is when people try to paint it specifically as black culture because  that certainly isnt the case. 
 
You don't know why we can't talk about cultural issues and societal norms...that in particular impact one community...in the midst of a politically radioactive environment?  Really? 

We can barely get to the point here where we are speaking about them in this forum/thread (and frankly I don't think we're there yet)...and we're all not trying to sell ourselves to get votes.  And you're not sure why we wouldn't be allowed to talk about it? 

And these things are largely not government controlled (don't have kids too young, don't have kids out of marriage, its good to speak proper english, its good to study).  Did you see the link to how painful it was for Obama to even mention it?  Have you proactively talked about it here in the PSF?  Why don't you think people talk about it more?

 I think where it gets "touchy" is when people try to paint it specifically as black culture because  that certainly isnt the case.  
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this.  Yes, there are currents of all cultural norms that run across all races.  For example, acting white...white kids give other kids a hard time about that as well.  Are you saying that there are no social norms, like this, that are more acute in the black community?

You use the word "paint".  I'm not interested in painting anybody.  I'm not interested in painting black mothers as the problem or white oppressors as the problem.  If you read what I write my focus is not on the people in the community but the people that are the leaders of the community and what they say.

Ok so i dont see an answer to my first question.  How is culture created or formed? Like, how did it begin to form initially?  What caused it to grow? You said they arent inherit so they had to be formed by something.  Would you agree environment(the people you interact with) is one thing that forms culture?  You mention govt programs, is slavery a govt program?  Wouldnt the original cause to most of what you are attributing to the black community be slavery and insertion info poverty?  Prevention of upward mobility?  Didnt that come first?
There's a lot here.  I can't explain to you the entirety of how culture is formed or why a specific norm is established.  I described in length in the post you didn't read how single motherhood has become a societal norm, across all races, some of the reasons why that is and why it is bad.  And it impacts all races.  It is impacting the black community more.

I think in general you are trying to say that black people got ####ed over and that has been instrumental in forming their culture.  I wholeheartedly agree.  In the few thousand words I've written, whichever portion you read I hope you got the impression that I don't think "black people just decided to put themselves here".  How that all translates to a culture where acting white is bad and treating women poorly is more normal...I don't know and really I'm more focused on how to start change.

I've elaborated on this a number of times, but for this thread I am solely focused on two things 1) This is where we are.  2)  How do we change it through the words and actions of us all and our leaders.  How do we focus on the things that people/individuals/families can change that is not dependent on the government. 

Believe it or not, this is a critical component.  And where I started originally in the thread was with datapoints that illustrates how Asians, for example...do it despite lower incomes than black/white/hispanic.  These are not crazy rich asian immigrants, these are asian children in NYC that come from families that earn less on average that are kicking ### on test scores...is anyone surprised?

There are a litany of other things that need to be done.  Not to sound like a #### but there are other threads for those things and talking about the need to increase the amount of money in food programs, for example...is great but distracts from this enormous topic.

 
There's a lot here.  I can't explain to you the entirety of how culture is formed or why a specific norm is established. 
But if we don’t know how it came to be or why it persists how can we fix it or prevent it from continuing?

let’s assume it’s a poverty issue and these issues you feel are primary causes for guns and violence and poor education have more to do with poverty than being black.  Then wouldn’t the answer then be to address the disproportionate number of black people in poverty?  Btw i did post a study that showed that not only does this work but it saves the country money in doing so and benefits everyone.
 

My point here, if you want to do this, then let’s fully examine this instead of you dictating and painting what you feel are the causes which in reality likely are symptoms.  
 

I’ll respond at length later when i get a bit more time especially to the acting white phenomenon however please note that is also not exclusive to black people.   Nor do i think it is a primary factor in this.  

 
Do you feel rap music is a problem?  How is it different from movies?  Also does it promote the culture or does it simply talk about the culture in which they live or grew up in?  
 
Anything that from a narrative perspective promotes misogyny and criminality is not good.  If its in the music it is insane to think its not impressionable upon young minds.  Same for movies although I think music much more impactful (quantity and quality)

I think it both talks about the culture and promotes the culture.  Chicken and the egg. 

 
Do you feel rap music is a problem?  How is it different from movies?  Also does it promote the culture or does it simply talk about the culture in which they live or grew up in?  
 
I feel rap music is a problem.  Violent movies/video games are also a problem.  I think rappers talk about the life they or people they knew grew up in and it glamorizes this lifestyle because the rappers have gained wealth and fame through it.

 
But if we don’t know how it came to be or why it persists how can we fix it or prevent it from continuing?

let’s assume it’s a poverty issue and these issues you feel are primary causes for guns and violence and poor education have more to do with poverty than being black.  Then wouldn’t the answer then be to address the disproportionate number of black people in poverty?  Btw i did post a study that showed that not only does this work but it saves the country money in doing so and benefits everyone.
Can you post the study again (sorry, but you made me write a lot of stuff again lol).

I do want to address poverty!!!  There are lots of ways to do that.  Some of them, like what the government has done to date in terms of welfare, public housing, etc...have...well they haven't changed us talking about these problems (and the data shows that since the start of the programs many things have worsened).  So is the answer more of the same.  More hammering?

Why does not having two parents in a household address poverty?  Two incomes vs one?

Why does promoting not having kids having babies not address poverty?

Why does promoting studying and other things associated with "acting white" not address poverty?

These are fundamental things that from a data perspective are quantitatively a huge part of setting the black community behind.  Particularly the first two.

Is the answer that spending another 20% on education will remedy it?  More public housing?  More welfare?  Dropping $50k in everyones bank account?  I'm completely open to intelligently spending more money...but spending it in the absence of being able to address the above is not intelligent. 

 
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let’s assume it’s a poverty issue and these issues you feel are primary causes for guns and violence and poor education have more to do with poverty than being black.  
Is one able to believe that poverty is an issue AND that it is not the only issue?

As I linked in the opening post (hence the topic)

The black murder rate ranges 4-10x greater than white across all income levels.  The black murder rate at $85k+ income is 2x the white murder rate at $10k income.  Let that soak in.  I don't know how that doesn't bring into question the notion that poverty is the primary driver, let alone the only driver.  People do have personal agency.

By the way, Asian murder rate is half the white murder rate.  Across all income ranges.  I'm not afraid to say thats because the culture within the Asian community consists of norms that are less accepting of criminality than whites, on average.  I'm fairly certain asian single motherhood is lower than white single motherhood if I can find the stat.  I've seen data points where Asian children study significantly more than white children.  Its ok, I don't think white people are terrible and asians are all saints.  I wouldn't ask the government to fix this discrepency between asians and whites.  In fact, I want them to stay as far away as possible.  I wish white culture was more supportive of two parent families than it is today.

 
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Is one able to believe that poverty is an issue AND that it is not the only issue?

As I linked in the opening post (hence the topic)

The black murder rate ranges 4-10x greater than white across all income levels.  The black murder rate at $85k+ income is 2x the white murder rate at $10k income.  Let that soak in.  I don't know how that doesn't bring into question the notion that poverty is the primary driver, let alone the only driver.  People do have personal agency.

By the way, Asian murder rate is half the white murder rate.  Across all income ranges.  I'm not afraid to say thats because the culture within the Asian community consists of norms that are less accepting of criminality than whites, on average.  I'm fairly certain asian single motherhood is lower than white single motherhood if I can find the stat.  I've seen data points where Asian children study significantly more than white children.  Its ok, I don't think white people are terrible and asians are all saints.  I wouldn't ask the government to fix this discrepency between asians and whites.  In fact, I want them to stay as far away as possible.  I wish white culture was more supportive of two parent families than it is today.
 More multigenerational families in Asian cultures.  2 parents plus elders is even better for raising kids. 

 
wait, did we already settle on that single motherhood is helping advance educational and economic achievement in the black community?
nah, we just keep posting in circles about the stats of single motherhood and what they might represent (usually these links just get ignored), how significant of a factor it is, etc.  one of those things I am guessing people aren't going to agree on.  

Mostly I was a little surprised today that your culture rant seemed to be mostly about that again.  

 
nah, we just keep posting in circles about the stats of single motherhood and what they might represent (usually these links just get ignored), how significant of a factor it is, etc.  one of those things I am guessing people aren't going to agree on.  

Mostly I was a little surprised today that your culture rant seemed to be mostly about that again.  
First of all, stop calling it a rant, it was a diatribe 😂

Second, yes I kinda skipped over the week of stealthycat and participants back and forth.

If its been established that one side believes that single motherhood rate is not a significant determinant in child outcomes (I assume that would be the side you are on), then I am totally ok moving on from that point.  I'll continue to do all in my power to ensure that my progeny and theirs will continue to understand the systemic advantages of the biggest societal cheat code that exists today.  

 
Yes, I would say it's a factor for sure, but don't place the importance on it in the overall picture that it seems like many here do.  Biggest cheat code? 

Just so I am clear where is 2 parents in the house (are you specifically also saying in the house?) ranked in the scheme of things? of all the things we have been throwing around as effecting the black community: poverty, education, schools, home ownership, whatever.   What would you fix first if you had a magic wand? 

 
nah, we just keep posting in circles about the stats of single motherhood and what they might represent (usually these links just get ignored), how significant of a factor it is, etc.  one of those things I am guessing people aren't going to agree on.  

Mostly I was a little surprised today that your culture rant seemed to be mostly about that again.  
I know you referenced a link that claimed black fathers are more involved than white fathers in their child's life.  I don't believe I actually read the link but I googled just now and found this:  https://www.givelegacy.com/resources/the-truth-about-black-fatherhood/  If your link provides different claims or stats, please share so I can read it.  From this link:

"In 1965, white sociologist and Assistant Secretary of Labor Daniel Patrick Moynihan published a report called The Negro Family: The Case For National Action. This report claimed that increasing rates of “out-of-wedlock” births and single-mother homes among African-Americans signaled the coming destruction of Black families, and these trends were to blame for many of the issues facing the Black community in America. (The report has been roundly criticized by many race scholars.)"

Did Moynihan have a valid point of view?

"We can not equate the number of unmarried dads to the number of “fatherless” children. First of all, marriage rates don’t necessarily reflect the number of Black fathers living with their children; as writer Josh Levs points out, the majority of Black dads (2.5 million of around 4.2 million) do live with their kids, even if they’re not married to their partner.

And second of all, according to a 2013 report by the CDC, Black dads—whether they live with their children, or not—are more actively involved in their children’s lives than their counterparts of other races."

Great, unmarried partners.  Married couples divorce at a 50% rate, I suppose unmarried couples can't be much worse?

"The report also reveals that, among dads who don’t live with their children, Black dads are more likely to be involved in care, including reading to their children, helping them with homework, talking to them about their days, and taking them to activities, than Hispanic or white dads who live apart from their kids. Non-residential Black fathers are also the least likely to report that they’re not at all involved in the care of their children, including bathing, dressing, changing diapers, and playing with their children.

And, it seems that the parental relationship, the strong focus of Moynihan’s 1965 report, actually has less of an impact on Black fathers’ involvement with their kids than it does on the involvement of other fathers. In a 2009 paper about the child-rearing roles of unmarried men, authors note that “Father involvement also varies by race and ethnicity, with rates for Africans American being higher than the average American father…. Father involvement drops sharply after parents’ relationships end, especially when they enter subsequent relationships and have children with new partners. These declines are less dramatic for African American fathers.”

Do they mean to suggest there are differences among races?  That sounds a little racist.

 
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Yes, I would say it's a factor for sure, but don't place the importance on it in the overall picture that it seems like many here do.  Biggest cheat code? 

Just so I am clear where is 2 parents in the house (are you specifically also saying in the house?) ranked in the scheme of things? of all the things we have been throwing around as effecting the black community: poverty, education, schools, home ownership, whatever.   What would you fix first if you had a magic wand? 
Two parents is first.  Pretty handily for me.  What I cannot comprehend at all is that we talk about two parents like it has no bearing on all these other things you list that are important 

Two parents impacts everything single one of those things you mention.

How can we talk about household income and poverty absent of the significance that two adults in a household have on household income vs one.  How is that disassociation remotely possible?

Do you think that two parents have no impact on the education a child receives?  This brings me to another cheat code (groundbreaking stuff).  Study.  I’ve gone to three schools from below average up to top 10 in my discipline.  I can say that I had good and bad teachers through all three.  Honestly any difference in teaching quality was least important.  Most of my performance impact came from the quality of my classmates that I associated with and competed with and most importantly…the amount of work I put in.  I make my daughters work their ### off, because it’s the studying you put in after school that makes the difference.

 
Two parents is first.  Pretty handily for me.  What I cannot comprehend at all is that we talk about two parents like it has no bearing on all these other things you list that are important 

Two parents impacts everything single one of those things you mention.

How can we talk about household income and poverty absent of the significance that two adults in a household have on household income vs one.  How is that disassociation remotely possible?

Do you think that two parents have no impact on the education a child receives?  This brings me to another cheat code (groundbreaking stuff).  Study.  I’ve gone to three schools from below average up to top 10 in my discipline.  I can say that I had good and bad teachers through all three.  Honestly any difference in teaching quality was least important.  Most of my performance impact came from the quality of my classmates that I associated with and competed with and most importantly…the amount of work I put in.  I make my daughters work their ### off, because it’s the studying you put in after school that makes the difference.


OMG, it's like you and I the same person.  Keep preaching, brotha'!  :thumbup:

It drives me absolutely nuts that one side of the aisle glorifies single mothers, berates men and ####s on two parent families.  IT STARTS AT HOME - and two parent families is the single biggest factor in starting a child off on a advantageous footing.

 
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Two parents is first.  Pretty handily for me.  What I cannot comprehend at all is that we talk about two parents like it has no bearing on all these other things you list that are important 

Two parents impacts everything single one of those things you mention.

How can we talk about household income and poverty absent of the significance that two adults in a household have on household income vs one.  How is that disassociation remotely possible?

Do you think that two parents have no impact on the education a child receives?  This brings me to another cheat code (groundbreaking stuff).  Study.  I’ve gone to three schools from below average up to top 10 in my discipline.  I can say that I had good and bad teachers through all three.  Honestly any difference in teaching quality was least important.  Most of my performance impact came from the quality of my classmates that I associated with and competed with and most importantly…the amount of work I put in.  I make my daughters work their ### off, because it’s the studying you put in after school that makes the difference.


I will fully admit to being crabby and maybe missing your position, hence me asking a ton of questions and trying to get where you are coming from.   IMO when you guys say that nothing is more important than 2 parent families you make a ton of assumptions:  both are working, healthy, educated, involved, engaged with the kids, also have a decent work ethic to pass along, etc, etc. etc..     That's a big part of my push back on this.  Just saying "two parents" to me doesn't a whole lot.   

Also, nothing grinds my gears more than people misrepresenting what I post.  At no point have I said "has no impact on....".   Again, we are talking degrees and importance.    Are we talking about all things being equal, would we prefer to have a 2 parent house where both are how I described above - educated, motivated, loving, involved?  Well yeah, of course.      Are we taking it so far that we are saying if we had to choose between a poor inner city family with 2 parents and with bad schools and jobs around vs. single parent house in a small town with decent schools, etc..   and we think option A is better as far as the prospects for a kid in that household, then yeah - I disagree.  

 
OMG, it's like you and I the same person.  Keep preaching, brotha'!  :thumbup:

It drives me absolutely nuts that one side of the aisle glorifies single mothers, berates men and ####s on two parent families.  IT STARTS AT HOME - and two parent families is the single biggest factor in starting a child off on a advantageous footing.


You and your generalizations.   "one side of the aisle" is not doing these things and posts like this really bog down actual conversation.  

 
Is one able to believe that poverty is an issue AND that it is not the only issue?

As I linked in the opening post (hence the topic)

The black murder rate ranges 4-10x greater than white across all income levels.  The black murder rate at $85k+ income is 2x the white murder rate at $10k income.  Let that soak in.  I don't know how that doesn't bring into question the notion that poverty is the primary driver, let alone the only driver.  People do have personal agency.

By the way, Asian murder rate is half the white murder rate.  Across all income ranges.  I'm not afraid to say thats because the culture within the Asian community consists of norms that are less accepting of criminality than whites, on average.  I'm fairly certain asian single motherhood is lower than white single motherhood if I can find the stat.  I've seen data points where Asian children study significantly more than white children.  Its ok, I don't think white people are terrible and asians are all saints.  I wouldn't ask the government to fix this discrepency between asians and whites.  In fact, I want them to stay as far away as possible.  I wish white culture was more supportive of two parent families than it is today.


I might have missed it in the shuffle.   Do you have a link for those stats?.  I am always interested how they reach stats like that or factor out things when citing stats.  

 
I will fully admit to being crabby and maybe missing your position, hence me asking a ton of questions and trying to get where you are coming from.   IMO when you guys say that nothing is more important than 2 parent families you make a ton of assumptions:  both are working, healthy, educated, involved, engaged with the kids, also have a decent work ethic to pass along, etc, etc. etc..     That's a big part of my push back on this.  Just saying "two parents" to me doesn't a whole lot.   

Also, nothing grinds my gears more than people misrepresenting what I post.  At no point have I said "has no impact on....".   Again, we are talking degrees and importance.    Are we talking about all things being equal, would we prefer to have a 2 parent house where both are how I described above - educated, motivated, loving, involved?  Well yeah, of course.      Are we taking it so far that we are saying if we had to choose between a poor inner city family with 2 parents and with bad schools and jobs around vs. single parent house in a small town with decent schools, etc..   and we think option A is better as far as the prospects for a kid in that household, then yeah - I disagree.  
I will fully admit to being crabby to.  @PinkydaPimpis a good guy and I like participating in discussion with him....but when someone says I didn't read your diatribe (which was largely about feminism and the impact on families and black participation in that)...and then asks do you think this is just black culture...I kind of feel like we're unnecessarily talking past each other And if we are here...imagine how it is outside here.

I'm sorry for implying that you think two parents have no impact.  I think the impact is huge and first on the list, I'm not sure where you place it but for sure not where I do.

Everything you said above about the different variables of parents are diversions from the core point.  Two is better than one.

I don't care whether or not one parent that is a 9 on the loving scale is better then two parents at 7's.  I don't care if one parent with a masters is better than two with college degrees.  If I follow your train of thought across the millions of family combinations you are really never going to get exact parent matches in terms of complete backgrounds...but to say that this precludes you from drawing a conclusion that two in general is better than one?  Is that what you are going with?

 
OMG, it's like you and I the same person.  Keep preaching, brotha'!  :thumbup:

It drives me absolutely nuts that one side of the aisle glorifies single mothers, berates men and ####s on two parent families.  IT STARTS AT HOME - and two parent families is the single biggest factor in starting a child off on a advantageous footing.
Wait, people really do this and act like it isn’t important?

 
I will fully admit to being crabby to.  @PinkydaPimpis a good guy and I like participating in discussion with him....but when someone says I didn't read your diatribe (which was largely about feminism and the impact on families and black participation in that)...and then asks do you think this is just black culture...I kind of feel like we're unnecessarily talking past each other And if we are here...imagine how it is outside here.

I'm sorry for implying that you think two parents have no impact.  I think the impact is huge and first on the list, I'm not sure where you place it but for sure not where I do.

Everything you said above about the different variables of parents are diversions from the core point.  Two is better than one.

I don't care whether or not one parent that is a 9 on the loving scale is better then two parents at 7's.  I don't care if one parent with a masters is better than two with college degrees.  If I follow your train of thought across the millions of family combinations you are really never going to get exact parent matches in terms of complete backgrounds...but to say that this precludes you from drawing a conclusion that two in general is better than one?  Is that what you are going with?


I am probably not being clear either, as usual, but no - I don't think we would agree about the ranking of the 2 parent things.  This conversation seems to be coming out of brainstorming about how to improve these communities and help them get out of poverty, etc.. right?    In that context, no I don't think waving a wand and magically giving everybody in these communities 2 parents would impact the outcome as much as giving all the families $ to get out of poverty, giving them all a good education, making sure there are jobs, etc..   IMO all that plus the crime/incarceration rates we bring up is what is driving the stats of single motherhood in the communities, not the other way around.  

 

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