While having some relation to actual NFL value is generally a good thing, the reality is that output stats (aka, the things that show up in the boxscores) are not particularly great indicators of actual NFL value. RBs score most of the TDs but aren't taken particularly high in the NFL draft - even more so with kickers.And a followup question: How important is it to you that the game of Fantasy Football mirror the real game?
Things like an average QB playing for a terrible team that will post a lot of points from having to throw a ton. And other examples where a valuable FF player may not be nearly as valuable in real NFL.
I ask as personally, I've never really considered it a big deal. But I know many do.
Thoughts?
J
Not trying to rag on you, but it IS kind of funny how the PPR narrative has shifted.I like PPR because I feel it more accurately reflects the direction in which the NFL has gone in regard to how passing has taken over the game.
No, I'm not looking for the PPR haters to slam me on this. I'm stating my opinion here.
Let's see if we can have a real discussion where we talk about what we like. Not telling someone who disagrees with you to get with the times. TIA.Not trying to rag on you, but it IS kind of funny how the PPR narrative has shifted.
10-15 years ago: RBs are too dominant in the NFL, we need PPR to spread the value around.
Present day: It's a passing league. Get with the times.
I wasn't telling anyone to get with the times! I'm a 0ppr fan. I was saying that's what PPR fans tend to say to justify PPR these days and pointing out how it is a total 180 from the narrative PPR fans used 10-15 years ago. I've actually had that exact quote told to me several times when leagues are voting on PPR.Let's see if we can have a real discussion where we talk about what we like. Not telling someone who disagrees with you to get with the times. TIA.
J
Cool. Nobody likes being told that - I thought that's what you were saying.I wasn't telling anyone to get with the times! I'm a 0ppr fan. I was saying that's what PPR fans tend to say to justify PPR these days and pointing out how it is a total 180 from the narrative PPR fans used 10-15 years ago. I've actually had that exact quote told to me several times when leagues are voting on PPR.
Thanks Fresh. On this, isn't the answer to adjust the points between positions to get what you want?I can see the argument for non ppr. A RB runs for 10yds and a WR makes a catch for 10yds. Why is the WR rewarded with more points for playing his position? Also it's much more likely these days to have a WR go for 100yds than it is for a RB, so the playing field seems pretty level without PPR.
All that being said I still prefer PPR. Maybe because there are not enough decent RB's to go around so with PPR you can still patch a backfield together.
I agree with this. My uncle was in a TD only league, and scores were super low. Tough to get excited. High scores make people pay attention and get excited, I'm Pro PPR, TDs and PPY.More points more fun bigger strategy pre-draft. Pro PPR, TDs and PPY
You're never going to get that "perfect" balance. They'll always be outliers like Woodhead or something. Like a lot of people have said it doesn't matter too much. The most important thing is to understand your league's scoring and value players accordingly.Thanks Fresh. On this, isn't the answer to adjust the points between positions to get what you want?
J
I have some data...how do I post an excel table so it doesn't look like a mess?I like modified PPR.
0 PPR for RB
0.5 for WR
1 for TE
It elevates TE's and WR's a little while maintaining RB value. Adds strategy and flexibility.
Will share some stats in a bit for my league which is 9 years old.
What do those stats correspond to? For example, what does RB - 11.67 ppg mean? Is that the average scoring for the top 24 RBs over 9 years? Or the average score for RB12?I have some data...how do I post an excel table so it doesn't look like a mess?
Basically, over the last 9 years
QB - 18.04 PPG
RB - 11.67 PPG
WR - 11.34 PPG
TE - 10.55 PPG
K - 8.01 PPG
DEF - 7.92 PPG
whatever stats the players give, I want to try and predict that and field the best FF team.And a followup question: How important is it to you that the game of Fantasy Football mirror the real game?
Things like an average QB playing for a terrible team that will post a lot of points from having to throw a ton. And other examples where a valuable FF player may not be nearly as valuable in real NFL.
I ask as personally, I've never really considered it a big deal. But I know many do.
Thoughts?
J
Thanks. I kind of like the -9 for a TD Interception. That's brutal but in line with reality. Interesting.whatever stats the players give, I want to try and predict that and field the best FF team.
10-15 years ago, fullbacks got more work than they do now. Larry Centers, William Henderson, and Mike Alstott made us FF folks discuss adding a fullback position to FF.
Michael Vick and Steve McNair rushing affected their QB point totals. Now we're headed toward 2016 and Mariota only flashed his speed last year on an 80+ yard run, but those extra rushing possibilities will make him a difficult QB to predict for FF.
Like adding rushing #s to a QB, if we have to add catches to a RB, then we do.
I once played in a league that penalized INTs returned for a TD. That did mirror the feel of the game. I think it was minus nine while a QB TD was 6 points. That is a gut punch while watching a game.
Minus one for FG misses wasn't half bad either. It's got an annoying feel when you're watching so yeah take a point off.
Minus three for missed XP was weird to see in the scoring but when I watched the game, it's 'dead on' The announcers even predictably say after a missed XP "He better make this FG" so year minus 3 and plus 3 (for the FG) was fitting.
I want to roll with whatever stats the players give us.
Sorry, was in a hurry to get to a meeting.What do those stats correspond to? For example, what does RB - 11.67 ppg mean? Is that the average scoring for the top 24 RBs over 9 years? Or the average score for RB12?
It's all good. Seemed like good info... I was just trying to get a feel for what exactly I was looking at. How many RBs and WRs start in your league?Sorry, was in a hurry to get to a meeting.
The RB numbers are every starting RB over the last 9 years...same with the other positions.
It's from MFL --> Reports --> League --> Starter Pts - Postiion
What I was trying to show what scoring looks like in a league that uses modified PPR. (0 for RB, 0.5 for WR, 1 for WR).
I have some data...how do I post an excel table so it doesn't look like a mess?
Basically, over the last 9 years
QB - 18.04 PPG
RB - 11.67 PPG
WR - 11.34 PPG
TE - 10.55 PPG
K - 8.01 PPG
DEF - 7.92 PPG
What do those stats correspond to? For example, what does RB - 11.67 ppg mean? Is that the average scoring for the top 24 RBs over 9 years? Or the average score for RB12?
When I created this league the goal was flexibility in starting lineups.It's all good. Seemed like good info... I was just trying to get a feel for what exactly I was looking at. How many RBs and WRs start in your league?
Scoring was in my earlier post.And what scoring system is that based on?
Thanks Bia.I think PPR hurts the competitive balance in dynasty leagues and this is the main format that I care about.
Well the WR are more valuable than the RB in terms of total points as well as potential useful career length. This is what is imbalanced.Thanks Bia.
Can you elaborate on this? How do you think it hurts the competitive balance?
And on the WR / RB angle, isn't the answer to adjust the points for each position to get more what you're looking for?
J
Bia does get it. He's also way better at discussing stuff without dragging it down to name calling with the "moar points" crowd stuff. You should try it.Biabreakable gets it, and he has more patience in regards to explaining things to the "Moar points is better! derka der" crowd.
As others have stated, PPR is the solution to a problem that no longer exists.
Thanks Bia.Well the WR are more valuable than the RB in terms of total points as well as potential useful career length. This is what is imbalanced.
The WR will still be more valuable than the RB in standard dynasty leagues as well, but at the least the total points would be closer, meaning the RB would be worth a bit more towards winning a weekly match up, than they are in a PPR league. So the short term value of the players would at least be closer, or more balanced, while the long term advantage for the WR still remains.
It doesn't hurt competitive balance of the FF owners, who as long as they understand the scoring system are all playing by the same rules. That isn't what I was trying to say.
What I am saying is that the relative value of the RB position compared to the WR is less balanced in terms of total points than they are in standard leagues.
The positional scarcity and starting requirements of the league are other factors of player value, which is what makes having one of the few RB who are still a workhorse for their team very valuable compared to other players at their position, even though they still might not score as many total points as their WR counter parts. The positional scarcity is that teams are splitting opportunities between two or sometimes three different RB, which means they are not getting much more opportunity than WR are in terms of targets and rushing attempts.
The players who are targeted in the passing game get better opportunities than the players who are getting rushing attempts. For a RB the average yards gained on a catch is something like 8 yards which is about twice as much as a yards per carry for a RB. So this is already an advantage in terms of yards. Then the PPR makes these events more valuable than a rushing attempt as well. PPR is counting the same event twice. While ignoring other similarly significant events such as a rushing attempt with no points awarded. So this is imbalanced.
When I read this, I instantly thought of 2015 Blake Bortles.And a followup question: How important is it to you that the game of Fantasy Football mirror the real game?
Things like an average QB playing for a terrible team that will post a lot of points from having to throw a ton. And other examples where a valuable FF player may not be nearly as valuable in real NFL.
I ask as personally, I've never really considered it a big deal. But I know many do.
Thoughts?
J
Well I have been invited to join some leagues that award points for rushing attempts, offensive snaps, and so on which is interesting but I have not taken the plunge on that. It does still interest me however if I were to take the time to break down all the offensive snaps (I have done this in past with making projections) but it is also a lot of work and things to keep track of.Thanks Bia.
For these things, can't the points be adjusted by position so it's more balanced? (Assuming balance is your goal).
J
The most frequent complaint about PPR is the reception for a loss and the disconnect between awarding points for a negative play. I don't dwell on that because the player does lose points for the yardage and there are other plays that aren't always "fair". There are fullbacks who are hugely important to their teams who let others reap the benefit of their effort. A QB can lose points on an interception when the receiver knocks the ball into the air; he can lose yardage on a kneel down; he can throw a pick on a Hail Mary. A receiver doesn't get credited on a defensive pass interference call... Players ring up fantasy points like a pinball machine when the game is hopelessly out of reach. In reality, they're only contributing to betting lines not truly helping their team.And a followup question: How important is it to you that the game of Fantasy Football mirror the real game?
Things like an average QB playing for a terrible team that will post a lot of points from having to throw a ton. And other examples where a valuable FF player may not be nearly as valuable in real NFL.
I ask as personally, I've never really considered it a big deal. But I know many do.
Thoughts?
J
I don't see the need to equalize the positions via the scoring system.32 of the top 50 players are WR. 64% 19 of the top 25 are WR 76%
Correct.Agree...PPR for dynasty is not ideal.
Standard scoring in Dynasty is the fairest due to the differences in career longevity. If you hit on 2 or 3 elite WRs in a PPR you are set for close to a decade. Same 2 or 3 elite RB is 5 years tops.
.5 PPR seems like a cheap fix for the real problem - player not being rewarded points based on the actual value of their plays.You're never going to get that "perfect" balance. They'll always be outliers like Woodhead or something. Like a lot of people have said it doesn't matter too much. The most important thing is to understand your league's scoring and value players accordingly.
There are enough leagues of all formats for everyone out there anyways but I'll being playing PPR for the foreseeable future. Preferably .5ppr
I agree - the combination of the highest scoring position with players with long careers is a detriment to dynasty.Agree...PPR for dynasty is not ideal.
Standard scoring in Dynasty is the fairest due to the differences in career longevity. If you hit on 2 or 3 elite WRs in a PPR you are set for close to a decade. Same 2 or 3 elite RB is 5 years tops.
Although the goal in dynasty is to create a super team year after year, 3 guys shouldn't provide that super team. It should be harder than that.
My dynasty league is starting it's 18th season. Non PPR scoring. 14 teams.
Only 7 ownership changes in history. A retention rate of 97.22%. Because even though not everyone wins the title, everyone at least feels like they are a year or two away.