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TE in the flex and drafting two top TEs (1 Viewer)

Kwai Chang Caine

Footballguy
Any of you guys doing this? I went after Gronk and Graham once or twice last year and two years ago and kinda liked it. Depending on where you are slotted, it may make sense if you take Gronk late round one and then Reed is sitting there early round 4. I'm noticing (assuming he's healthy--big if) that Reed's numbers are better on PPG basis then the WRs in that area. It also gives you power over a position. Just curious if anyone else digs this. I think ROTOVIZ called Graham "the queen" in chess and having him in the flex with Gronk at TE was a powerful strategy a few years ago and it's kinda stuck with me. Thoughts?

 
I think that would definitely make sense in a league that is a TE premium. In a standard PPR, it seems like a crapshoot IMO. Gronk is a stud no doubt, but putting another TE in your flex like Reed probably doesn't help much. Take last year, Reed would have finished as WR15 in PPR. If by the 4th you have both Gronk and Reed, then you're probably behind in WR and definitely hurting at RB by that point.

 
I have done it with a few teams in the FPC in the past (1.5pt ppr for TE) and it has never worked out good for me.

 
I'd draft gronk and then maybe draft a backup with upside maybe a little earlier than I would. Reed is just too much of a risk- only one good healthy season. The theory makes sense, especially when it's gronk/jimmy/ rest of the pack. Too murky to roll that out this year.

 
It is a risky and somewhat  low upside play IMO (unless a TE premium league). Yes Reed averaged more ppg than some of  the WRs being drafted in that area (not Edelman, Baldwin, Decker). However, that was last year. Reed's career average is only 7.8. He has a lengthy injury history. A TE has to be elite to make this strategy work because in terms of the supply/demand aspect of the game drafting him in the 4th after taking Gronk in the first is tying up a lot of draft capital into a position that only requires 1 player. It really reduces the flexibility of your roster. Gronk and Reed can each only fill up 2 specific spots. I assume you are starting 2 RBs and 2-3 WRS plus the flex. That means a WR can fill 3-4 roster spots. A RB can fill 3 spots. Also, you have the supply and demand of the position. There will be TEs closer to the average starter available later in drafts and on waivers than for RB or WR. 

 
Went to(and lost) 2012 SB with J Witten and H Miller(his 8 TD year). This league was PPR
and flex-RB/WR/TE. 2012 Combo WR/TE scoring had Witten as 19th and Miller as 25th.
I Started 2 RBs, 2WRs, and 2TEs.

Points are points. I would try Olsen paired with  C Fleener, D Walker or maybe G Barnidge.  

 
One idea that worked really well for me last year and am considering again is using Gronk to essentially play 4 WRs instead of 3 WRs and a TE. The league is 3WR and 1TE. However, when you look at all the numbers, Gronk is the one TE that has consistently shown to perform more like a WR than a TE. So I don't like to think of Gronk as a TE, I think of him as a WR that can be played in the TE spot. 

Here is what I wrote about it:

Note: All numbers are non-ppr and all rankings are defined by fp/g.

Gronk has averaged 12.9 fp/g over a 5 year period.If you look at other top performers over the last few years, there are only 3 WRs  averaging that level of production (Brown, Julio and Beckham). Gronk scored about 6 fp/g above a replacement level TE. Since at a minimum AB, Julio and Beckham are off the board before Gronk, you are looking at choosing between Gronk or WR4-6. Assuming you actually accurately predict that the WR you are taking produces to that level, we are talking about 14 fp/g which is also 6 points above your WR37+ level replacement type players. Plus, Gronk does have upside. His highest fp/g season is higher than Julio or Dez have ever posted. Gronk's also a high floor guy. Over the last 5 years, his low fp/g of 11.9 is higher than the lows we have seem from Julio (11.4) or AJ Green (11.7). Gronk's 5 year low of 11.9 would have been strong enough to have made him WR11 last year. If you take Gronk you are getting a high floor, upside and a major positional advantage. Gronk is a WR1 that can be placed in the TE spot which allows your team to now essentially start 4 WRs and 0 TEs. 

I consider taking Gronk as I see it as a chance to maximize the potential of a 0RB team because WRs typically score more than TEs. Now that might sound contradictory, but hear me out. I draft Gronk early because WRs score more than TEs. If possible, I would never want to have to play a TE in fantasy. If you just look at the numbers, Gronk doesn't perform like a TE. If we count Gronk as a WR, he would have finished on average as WR8 over the last 5 years in fp/g. Only in one of the last 5 years wouldn't he have finished as a top 9 WR. Twice he finished in the top 3 among WRs. If you take Gronk's 5 year per game averages and put them out over a season, you get: 85 for 1252 and 13.75 TDs. Those aren't TE numbers, those are WR numbers. Drafting Gronk allows me to fill the TE spot with WR production which now means I can start 4 WRs. Let's say you are picking in the middle of a draft. You can begin your draft with something like Gronk, Alshon, Demaryius (there are your 3 WRs). Now you can draft a WR in the 4th and that WR is essentially filling your TE slot. This allows you to match a guy like a Maclin,Cobb or Decker against your opponents TE because Gronk is providing you top 12 WR numbers from the TE position. The difference between Gronk and a high end WRs last year (let's say Hopkins) was about 1.5 fp/g. The average weekly fp/g from TEs not named Gronk last year was 8.6 fp/g. That means if you can get a WR to produce about 10.1 fp/g or higher than you are going to be on the winning side. Considering with a 0RB strategy you are able to take Gronk in the 1st round and still get 3 of the top 22-26 WRs and last year 22 WRs averaged better than 10.1, it seems  likely you can draft this way and end up in the positive. In addition, the ceiling of a WR taken in the middle rounds is  higher than any TE not named Gronk so the best case scenario is going to be a major positive advantage. 

Matt Waldman used to work for another site and had CRANK scores (consistency rating score). I ran the numbers for Gronk as a WR instead of a TE. Gronk delivered elite WR performance 36% of games (11th best WR), WR1 performance 50% (6th best WR), WR2 level performance 71% of the time (5th best WR) and WR3 78% (4th best). His outputs there align most closely to Keenan Allen, Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins. His overall WR CRANK score was 6th. Only behind  Marshall, Julio, OBJ, Brown and Hopkins. 

Now my disclaimer to that is I ran some more extensive numbers of what it would look like going GRONK/WR/WR/WR/8TH RD RB/WR VS WR/WR/WR/8TH RD TE vs RB/WR/WR/WR/8TH RD TE and in both high end, low end and median projections, the 1st round Gronk was almost always the lowest scoring option. That said, it was close enough that the reliability of a player like Gronk still might make it a strong play to take him first round. 

 
It is a risky and somewhat  low upside play IMO (unless a TE premium league). Yes Reed averaged more ppg than some of  the WRs being drafted in that area (not Edelman, Baldwin, Decker). However, that was last year. Reed's career average is only 7.8. He has a lengthy injury history. A TE has to be elite to make this strategy work because in terms of the supply/demand aspect of the game drafting him in the 4th after taking Gronk in the first is tying up a lot of draft capital into a position that only requires 1 player. It really reduces the flexibility of your roster. Gronk and Reed can each only fill up 2 specific spots. I assume you are starting 2 RBs and 2-3 WRS plus the flex. That means a WR can fill 3-4 roster spots. A RB can fill 3 spots. Also, you have the supply and demand of the position. There will be TEs closer to the average starter available later in drafts and on waivers than for RB or WR. 
According to PFR DraftKings scoring system (1 point PPR) Reed has a career average of 13.76 points/game.

In the same scoring system Gronk has a career average of 17.38 points/game.

Gronk has obviously had a better QB and supporting cast to work with than Reed and he has more games to work with that were not his rookie season.

Obviously offensive supporting cast and QB for Reed has improved now.

Reed has only scored 7 TD so far is the main difference.

 
Biabreakable said:
According to PFR DraftKings scoring system (1 point PPR) Reed has a career average of 13.76 points/game.

In the same scoring system Gronk has a career average of 17.38 points/game.

Gronk has obviously had a better QB and supporting cast to work with than Reed and he has more games to work with that were not his rookie season.

Obviously offensive supporting cast and QB for Reed has improved now.

Reed has only scored 7 TD so far is the main difference.
I don't have ppr numbers so all my analysis is standard. I'm not what you mean by Reed only having scored 7 TDs though.

 
I like the strategy some years, but definitely not this year.  There's lots of debate over the rankings of the rest of the TE's after Gronk so unless you're getting someone like Barnidge/Eritz who you could get later on but could still be a top 5 TE, it's not worth it.  Taking Olson/Reed in round 4 or 5 is really going to hurt your team this year as there's so many good RBs/WRs left at that point. 

 
I like the strategy some years, but definitely not this year.  There's lots of debate over the rankings of the rest of the TE's after Gronk so unless you're getting someone like Barnidge/Eritz who you could get later on but could still be a top 5 TE, it's not worth it.  Taking Olson/Reed in round 4 or 5 is really going to hurt your team this year as there's so many good RBs/WRs left at that point. 
Agreed. Seemed like a better strategy when there was 2 top TEs who were far and away better than the rest of the pack. Now, it's Gronk and everyone else. Sure, Reed had a really good season last year, but even as a Skins fan, I'm nervous about whether he can stay healthy or not. If you swing and miss on him in the 4th after you've already taken Gronk, you're really behind everyone else.

 
Agreed. Seemed like a better strategy when there was 2 top TEs who were far and away better than the rest of the pack. Now, it's Gronk and everyone else. Sure, Reed had a really good season last year, but even as a Skins fan, I'm nervous about whether he can stay healthy or not. If you swing and miss on him in the 4th after you've already taken Gronk, you're really behind everyone else.
I know! Well, I've only pulled this move on one team so far. It's kinda like an experiment. I got pick 10. Took Gronk 1.10. By the time my pick 4.3 came up, Reed seemed like the best player available. Much better PPG than what was left. So, hell with it, I'll swing for the fence. 

 
Ilov80s said:
One idea that worked really well for me last year and am considering again is using Gronk to essentially play 4 WRs instead of 3 WRs and a TE. The league is 3WR and 1TE. However, when you look at all the numbers, Gronk is the one TE that has consistently shown to perform more like a WR than a TE. So I don't like to think of Gronk as a TE, I think of him as a WR that can be played in the TE spot. 

Here is what I wrote about it:

Note: All numbers are non-ppr and all rankings are defined by fp/g.

Gronk has averaged 12.9 fp/g over a 5 year period.If you look at other top performers over the last few years, there are only 3 WRs  averaging that level of production (Brown, Julio and Beckham). Gronk scored about 6 fp/g above a replacement level TE. Since at a minimum AB, Julio and Beckham are off the board before Gronk, you are looking at choosing between Gronk or WR4-6. Assuming you actually accurately predict that the WR you are taking produces to that level, we are talking about 14 fp/g which is also 6 points above your WR37+ level replacement type players. Plus, Gronk does have upside. His highest fp/g season is higher than Julio or Dez have ever posted. Gronk's also a high floor guy. Over the last 5 years, his low fp/g of 11.9 is higher than the lows we have seem from Julio (11.4) or AJ Green (11.7). Gronk's 5 year low of 11.9 would have been strong enough to have made him WR11 last year. If you take Gronk you are getting a high floor, upside and a major positional advantage. Gronk is a WR1 that can be placed in the TE spot which allows your team to now essentially start 4 WRs and 0 TEs. 

I consider taking Gronk as I see it as a chance to maximize the potential of a 0RB team because WRs typically score more than TEs. Now that might sound contradictory, but hear me out. I draft Gronk early because WRs score more than TEs. If possible, I would never want to have to play a TE in fantasy. If you just look at the numbers, Gronk doesn't perform like a TE. If we count Gronk as a WR, he would have finished on average as WR8 over the last 5 years in fp/g. Only in one of the last 5 years wouldn't he have finished as a top 9 WR. Twice he finished in the top 3 among WRs. If you take Gronk's 5 year per game averages and put them out over a season, you get: 85 for 1252 and 13.75 TDs. Those aren't TE numbers, those are WR numbers. Drafting Gronk allows me to fill the TE spot with WR production which now means I can start 4 WRs. Let's say you are picking in the middle of a draft. You can begin your draft with something like Gronk, Alshon, Demaryius (there are your 3 WRs). Now you can draft a WR in the 4th and that WR is essentially filling your TE slot. This allows you to match a guy like a Maclin,Cobb or Decker against your opponents TE because Gronk is providing you top 12 WR numbers from the TE position. The difference between Gronk and a high end WRs last year (let's say Hopkins) was about 1.5 fp/g. The average weekly fp/g from TEs not named Gronk last year was 8.6 fp/g. That means if you can get a WR to produce about 10.1 fp/g or higher than you are going to be on the winning side. Considering with a 0RB strategy you are able to take Gronk in the 1st round and still get 3 of the top 22-26 WRs and last year 22 WRs averaged better than 10.1, it seems  likely you can draft this way and end up in the positive. In addition, the ceiling of a WR taken in the middle rounds is  higher than any TE not named Gronk so the best case scenario is going to be a major positive advantage. 

Matt Waldman used to work for another site and had CRANK scores (consistency rating score). I ran the numbers for Gronk as a WR instead of a TE. Gronk delivered elite WR performance 36% of games (11th best WR), WR1 performance 50% (6th best WR), WR2 level performance 71% of the time (5th best WR) and WR3 78% (4th best). His outputs there align most closely to Keenan Allen, Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins. His overall WR CRANK score was 6th. Only behind  Marshall, Julio, OBJ, Brown and Hopkins. 

Now my disclaimer to that is I ran some more extensive numbers of what it would look like going GRONK/WR/WR/WR/8TH RD RB/WR VS WR/WR/WR/8TH RD TE vs RB/WR/WR/WR/8TH RD TE and in both high end, low end and median projections, the 1st round Gronk was almost always the lowest scoring option. That said, it was close enough that the reliability of a player like Gronk still might make it a strong play to take him first round. 
This is likely the first post I ever read that had the word Gronk in it 29 times. j/k

Having "Gronk" essentially gives you a  5-6 point lead every week with the task of not giving it all back anywhere else.

 
This is likely the first post I ever read that had the word Gronk in it 29 times. j/k

Having "Gronk" essentially gives you a  5-6 point lead every week with the task of not giving it all back anywhere else.
I could have switched up and used Rob, Gronkowski, New England TE...but f it. GRONK!!!

 
I don't have ppr numbers so all my analysis is standard. I'm not what you mean by Reed only having scored 7 TDs though.
Oh ok. Standard is 7.98 points/game for Reed.  11.86 for Gronk. It is about a 4 point difference either scoring system and that difference is due to Gronk having higher TDs than Reed who didn't score any TD in 2014.

The other stuff is a mistake I was looking at the red zone TD numbers which Reed had seven of last season from inside the 10. He had 4 more from further out than that. He has 14 career TD, one of those is from outside of the 20 yard line. I was looking at the wrong thing at the time.

 
I did this last year in a 12 team keeper league but it wasnt planned.  This was a 12 team keeper league where we start 2rb, 2wr, 1te and 1 flex of those three positions.  I kept gronk and D Thomas so when it got to round 4 (technically round 6) and Olsen was sitting there, I didnt hesitate.  He ended up being a weekly start for me and I rode the two of them to the best record in the league. In hindsight though, there were other players at WR that would have been better selections mainly because Olsen ended up being the 5th best TE. 

 
I linked what I was referencing. See for yourself.

Gronk has played 80 total games. In standard scoring he has 948.7 fantasy points. That is 11.86 points/game.

 
Oh ok. Standard is 7.98 points/game for Reed.  11.86 for Gronk. It is about a 4 point difference either scoring system and that difference is due to Gronk having higher TDs than Reed who didn't score any TD in 2014.

The other stuff is a mistake I was looking at the red zone TD numbers which Reed had seven of last season from inside the 10. He had 4 more from further out than that. He has 14 career TD, one of those is from outside of the 20 yard line. I was looking at the wrong thing at the time.
I just went back last 5 years. Obviously skews things in Gronks favor since it removes his rookie year. I don't think his rookie year is at all reflective of what he is now. His rookie year just doesn't fit in with the rest of his career. I would do the same with Reed when he only has 3 years and his only good year is the outlier. 

Most fair assessment of Gronk is likely to remove his 1st and 2nd year as they are the outliers on the top and bottom. Since then he has been very stable: 13, 11.9, 12.3, 12.2 yearly averages. 12.4 per game average. You would be hard pressed to find many players at any position who were that consistent over the last 4 seasons. 

 
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The other problem with this strategy that I didn't see mentioned is that by drafting two elite TEs early, you've not only put yourself behind the 8-ball at another key position, but you've shut yourself out of the flexibility your flex spot is designed to offer, both during the draft and in-season.

It's common for drafts to offer lots of mid-round value at one specific position as owners chase runs elsewhere, and tying up your flex slot in the first 4 rounds really hinders your ability to take advantage of that to grab starter-level talent on the cheap. Sometimes that "specific position" offering value winds up being TE, and you'll feel twice as stupid.

Similarly, during the season it's tougher to "play matchups" with your RB4 or WR5 (or your TE2!) if you've got every-week starters locked into most of your starting skill-position slots and no flex spot to play with. And you've basically eliminated yourself from picking up extra value via the WW at the TE slot as well, unless one of your studs gets hurt.

Flexibility both in the draft and in setting lineups is an underrated virtue.

 
I just went back last 5 years. Obviously skews things in Gronks favor since it removes his rookie year. I don't think his rookie year is at all reflective of what he is now. His rookie year just doesn't fit in with the rest of his career. I would do the same with Reed when he only has 3 years and his only good year is the outlier. 
I normally discard the rookie season as well. I was just being lazy about that because Reed only has 3 seasons of his career so far to work with. Next season we could throw out Reeds rookie year and still have 3 years of data to work with. 

Reed due to missing 37% of his games in the first two seasons makes it kind of hard to work with those numbers. He only has 8 points/game if you throw out the rookie season.

The 2014 numbers are lower because he scored no TD. He only started 2 games that year and other TE were playing ahead of him due to his issues with concussions.

He hasn't played a full season yet, so last years numbers are I think the best representation of his capabilities.

 
I normally discard the rookie season as well. I was just being lazy about that because Reed only has 3 seasons of his career so far to work with. Next season we could throw out Reeds rookie year and still have 3 years of data to work with. 

Reed due to missing 37% of his games in the first two seasons makes it kind of hard to work with those numbers. He only has 8 points/game if you throw out the rookie season.

The 2014 numbers are lower because he scored no TD. He only started 2 games that year and other TE were playing ahead of him due to his issues with concussions.

He hasn't played a full season yet, so last years numbers are I think the best representation of his capabilities.
Right which is just kind of my whole point. Reed is a wildcard due to such a small and imprecise sample size. Amazing ceiling, but sometimes due to injury, poor performance, struggling offense, etc. we end up with these 1 year wonders. If you are taking him over a Maclin or Decker, you are making a risky play where as guys like Decker and Maclin have shown that with different QBs, different systems, and different teams they can continue to produce at a reliable level. 

 
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I agree there is risk. He has a lot of concussions and that is an injury that increases likelihood of occurring again each time it happens.

At the same time he made it through 14 games last year so perhaps this risk is behind him now.

I don't think his numbers are a fluke. He was remarkably productive when he played even as a rookie, which is uncommon for a player at the TE position.

5 receptions and 55 yards/game his rookie season compared to Gronk's 2.6 receptions and 34.1 yards/game.

I like Maclin and Decker but I would draft Reed over them (and others) without hesitation. 

 

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