What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Dynasty Value Discussion Thread (10 Viewers)

I don't think you could get more than a 2nd right now. If he avoids any notable rookie competition, maybe that'll improve.
Re: Ajayi, as an Eagles an I'd gladly pay a 2nd for him, even if Blount is back. I think the writing is on the wall he's the main back in a RBBC going forward. The Eagles don't have a 2nd or 3rd next year and I doubt they spend a 1st on RB. They'll have Pumphrey coming back from injury (who struggled a lot whenever pads were on, but they will no doubt give another chance). Clement is a legit NFL RB but not as good as Ajayi so clearly behind him. Unless his ego gets in the way he seems like a safe RB2 for next year with possibility of extended value and small chance of RB1 breakout. Eagles already drafted a RB for next year - it is Ajayi.

 
YPC isn't everything, but his wasn't impressive so I'm not sure what you mean by "very efficient." And the TDs WILL go down, not "could." I mean,
Usually when some one says that a RB's production was dependent on volume it implies they had low ypc (i.e. Melvin Gordon) but continued to see a heavy workload.

David Johnson averaged 4.4 yards per carry in 2016 and 12.7 ypr (abnormally high for a RB) while scoring 20 total TDs. I think that's very efficient. I'm sure most would see it that way, but I guess you have a tough grading system.  

While it's highly likely his TD totals will go down I try not to speak in absolutes when discussing the future in fantasy football.

To the overall point, given the current landscape I think he's still a top 10 RB and arguably a top 5 RB in dynasty. I do agree a coaching change and an unknown supporting cast adds an element of risk - but like any player "risk v. reward" is what we do,

 
Here is the issue with ranking Johnson high. Here is a list of 15 RBs who should be viewed as all being in contention for the top 15 dynasty RBs right now, sorted by their current ages (all ages from PFR except Barkley, which I Googled):

  1. Barkley (20+335d)
  2. Mixon (21+168d)
  3. McCaffrey (21+215d)
  4. Cook (22+151d)
  5. Hunt (22+155d)
  6. Kamara (22+167d)
  7. Elliott (22+170d)
  8. Fournette (22+355d)
  9. Howard (23+67d)
  10. Gurley (23+158d)
  11. Henry (24+4d)
  12. Gordon (24+270d)
  13. Freeman (25+299d)
  14. Bell (25+324d)
  15. Johnson (26+23d)
I included only Barkley from the incoming rookie class, but, after this year's combine and draft, I assume a couple others will get bumped out of contention for top 15 to inject a couple more rookie RBs.

Also, I assume some people would prefer to include Ingram, Ajayi, Hyde, or even McCoy in a notional top 15 list, so YMMV.

While Johnson is by no means old, he is at least 3 years older than most of these guys. I don't see Johnson with a significant edge in talent/ability over most of these players, and he may lose some of the edge he had in opportunity, that remains to be seen. If the combination of talent and opportunity doesn't give him a significant edge, the age delta with most of these players erodes his value.

As an aside, I think Mixon's age and thus his remaining upside potential is being largely overlooked. That is similarly true with McCaffrey, but it seems to be more well known and discussed for him than Mixon.

 
I think you are being a tad misleading with some of your stats.

DJ has averaged 4.3 YPC. Marshall Faulk averaged.... 4.3 YPC over his career. Emmitt Smith averaged... 4.2 YPC. Walter Payton averaged... 4.4 YPC. So some pretty darn good RB's have averaged what DJ is averaging for their careers. 4.3 YPC is just fine with the volume he was seeing.

And regarding age, he turns 27 on December 16 next year. So he will be 26 for most of the year next year. 

I do agree that there are some questions surrounding his usage now that Arians is gone. But his YPC and age are two of my least concerns regarding DJ.
I've got no intention of misleading, as I don't have him and am not pursuing him in any leagues.

I find your use of career averages to be a tad misleading. Those guys played in a different era. Also, career stats always include the tail end of the career which brings averages down. I'm not trying to say 4.2 ypc is bad, but it's not exactly an inspiring number, either. My point was that we've only really got one volume aided season on this guy and he'll be turning 27 next year. I'd feel a lot better about ranking him in the top 5 if (1) there was more data, (2) his YPC was more eye popping, (3) his team wasn't on the brink of a total collapse, and (4) he was younger.

I didn't say YPC and age should be anyone's prime concerns with him. I thought I made it pretty clear that my prime concerns with him are the loss of his offensive head coach and the overall poor standing of the franchise. 

Re: Ajayi, as an Eagles an I'd gladly pay a 2nd for him, even if Blount is back. I think the writing is on the wall he's the main back in a RBBC going forward. The Eagles don't have a 2nd or 3rd next year and I doubt they spend a 1st on RB. They'll have Pumphrey coming back from injury (who struggled a lot whenever pads were on, but they will no doubt give another chance). Clement is a legit NFL RB but not as good as Ajayi so clearly behind him. Unless his ego gets in the way he seems like a safe RB2 for next year with possibility of extended value and small chance of RB1 breakout. Eagles already drafted a RB for next year - it is Ajayi.
Excellent point. I hadn't delved into their draft picks. I still don't think anyone is eager to part with anything more than a 2nd rounder for him, then again, I haven't been following him too closely. Just seen him getting shopped in a couple leagues without luck. 

Usually when some one says that a RB's production was dependent on volume it implies they had low ypc (i.e. Melvin Gordon) but continued to see a heavy workload.

David Johnson averaged 4.4 yards per carry in 2016 and 12.7 ypr (abnormally high for a RB) while scoring 20 total TDs. I think that's very efficient. I'm sure most would see it that way, but I guess you have a tough grading system.  

While it's highly likely his TD totals will go down I try not to speak in absolutes when discussing the future in fantasy football.

To the overall point, given the current landscape I think he's still a top 10 RB and arguably a top 5 RB in dynasty. I do agree a coaching change and an unknown supporting cast adds an element of risk - but like any player "risk v. reward" is what we do,
FBG has him rushing for 4.22 ypc in 2016. 

I feel like he's a top 5 RB in the lists I see on here, but there's no way I'd pay a top 5 price for him at this point. If doing a startup, I'd much rather stretch those dollars into 2-3 other players I deem underrated. But don't get me wrong - I don't want Melvin Gordon, either (since you mentioned him). 

I don't mean to say he was inefficient in 2016 by saying his season was volume based, but more to imply that said volume (along with the goal line carries) will likely dwindle next season. And I don't see him offsetting it by increasing his efficiency. RB YPR is extremely difficult to predict, so I'd bet the farm on the under vs. the 12.7 YPR in 2016. 

I feel like the 2018 Cardinals could be the 2016 (or 2017) Browns. What would DJ's value have been last year if he got traded to the Browns? What would DJ's stats have looked like if he played on the 2016 Browns? Conversely, what would Crowell's value be if he'd been Arian's bell cow in 2016? As much as dynasty rankings supposedly value talent over situation, I feel like they remain conflated with situation, yet are not taking it into account when ranking DJ going forward. If he tanks on a terrible team, he could easily get relegated to a Duke Johnson-esque role in a RBBC as a FA in 2019. That can have value, but not top 5 value. 

 
FBG has him rushing for 4.22 ypc in 2016. 

What would DJ's stats have looked like if he played on the 2016 Browns? Conversely, what would Crowell's value be if he'd been Arian's bell cow in 2016? As much as dynasty rankings supposedly value talent over situation, I feel like they remain conflated with situation, yet are not taking it into account when ranking DJ going forward. If he tanks on a terrible team, he could easily get relegated to a Duke Johnson-esque role in a RBBC as a FA in 2019. That can have value, but not top 5 value. 
I calculated something wrong because 4.22 for his ypc is correct - which is still efficient but below what I said.

I think you're getting a little extreme in the second part I included above. I'm not a fan of Crowell - I think he's an average at best plodding type runner - but I don't even want to address that because I don't see the 2018 Cardinals as analogous to the 2016 Browns at this point. If the Cards attract a terrible coach like Hue Jackson and can only find a Cody Kessler level QB, then like I said that would add "risk" to my "risk v. reward" analysis.

I also don't see DJ being relegated to a situational passing down back like Duke Johnson but obviously if that was to somehow happen, then his value would take a hit of course. If Carson Wentz' mechanics warp into Blake Bortles' at some point I'd have concerns about his future as well.

 
As an aside, I think Mixon's age and thus his remaining upside potential is being largely overlooked.
Upside, age and I'd add very little wear on his tires.

I recall last year when I was sorting out the top rookie RB echelon bumping Mixon and McCaffrey up for youth and Mixon and Kamara for their lack of major use in college. Mixon checked all the boxes, youth, wear and tear, 3 down back upside. Still does.

 
I calculated something wrong because 4.22 for his ypc is correct - which is still efficient but below what I said.

I think you're getting a little extreme in the second part I included above. I'm not a fan of Crowell - I think he's an average at best plodding type runner - but I don't even want to address that because I don't see the 2018 Cardinals as analogous to the 2016 Browns at this point. If the Cards attract a terrible coach like Hue Jackson and can only find a Cody Kessler level QB, then like I said that would add "risk" to my "risk v. reward" analysis.

I also don't see DJ being relegated to a situational passing down back like Duke Johnson but obviously if that was to somehow happen, then his value would take a hit of course. If Carson Wentz' mechanics warp into Blake Bortles' at some point I'd have concerns about his future as well.
4.22 is firmly in the grey area between efficient and inefficient. Hue Jackson wasn't seen as a bad coach when they hired him. And most rookie QBs struggle, even if they have good careers. I'm guessing the Cards go 3-13 next year. And if DJ struggles with them, do you think he's going to get a bell cow contract in 2019? To me he carries too much risk for his current (perceived) price. 

 
So none?  None of them LOOKED as good as Juju does, and he is 21.  Not talking about stats here
I think Wallace and Martavis looked every bit as good. Wallace just has a totally different game, the kind I don't like as much for PPR fantasy and Martavis has a lot of issues but to me they both looked every bit as good as JuJu did this past season.

 
I think Wallace and Martavis looked every bit as good. Wallace just has a totally different game, the kind I don't like as much for PPR fantasy and Martavis has a lot of issues but to me they both looked every bit as good as JuJu did this past season.
Them we will just agree to disagree.  

 
So none?  None of them LOOKED as good as Juju does, and he is 21.  Not talking about stats here
That's a completely subjective opinion. All of those guys I named had highlight plays (some more than others.) At times, all of those guys LOOKED great. JuJu had an electric 97 yd kick return for a TD this year. Well, Holmes led the league in punt return TD's his rookie year. Holmes averaged almost as many yards per kick return as JuJu on 4 times as many returns in their respective rookie years. Holmes scored a lot fewer receiving TD's but had more ypr his rookie year with similar volume and this was a decade ago when Big Ben was considered a game manager was throwing for a 1K less yards than he does these days.

I like JuJu a lot and think he can continue to be good (with his upside capped in fantasy due to the presence of Antonio), but there have been quite a few WR's through Pittsburgh over the past decade, some of which have been just as exciting in small samples.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
4.22 is firmly in the grey area between efficient and inefficient. Hue Jackson wasn't seen as a bad coach when they hired him. And most rookie QBs struggle, even if they have good careers. I'm guessing the Cards go 3-13 next year. And if DJ struggles with them, do you think he's going to get a bell cow contract in 2019? To me he carries too much risk for his current (perceived) price. 
4.22 is efficient imo, but I don't care to argue semantics - you are also leaving out his pass catching (12.7 ypr) and the 20 TDs he scored. Let's just agree to disagree whether or not Johnson was efficient in 2016.

The rest has already been discussed. I don't make the same assumptions that you do (each and everyone negative to the extreme) - we can leave that as an "agree to disagree" as well.

 
Them we will just agree to disagree.  
Yes we will but what we will agree to agree on is JuJu's age and work ethic are massive things in his favor, especially when compared to knuckleheads like Holmes and Martavis so I for sure like his growth potential more.

 
JuJu looks like a WR should look.

Holmes and Bryant look more like athletes playing WR. Good ones, sure. But not a long term, successful NFL WR body type.

 
4.22 is efficient imo, but I don't care to argue semantics - you are also leaving out his pass catching (12.7 ypr) and the 20 TDs he scored. Let's just agree to disagree whether or not Johnson was efficient in 2016.

The rest has already been discussed. I don't make the same assumptions that you do (each and everyone negative to the extreme) - we can leave that as an "agree to disagree" as well.
That's fine. I honestly couldn't care less. I don't own him and don't plan to. On account of it being the fantasy offseason I figured I'd point out an outlier (to me) in the rankings I've seen to generate some discussion. "Consensus rankings and group think are likely to be infallible for the 2018 season" just didn't quite feel right.

Also, just to be clear, the scenarios I threw out were not meant to be assumptions. Just very plausible negative scenarios that people should consider before acquiring him.

 
I've got no intention of misleading, as I don't have him and am not pursuing him in any leagues.

I find your use of career averages to be a tad misleading. Those guys played in a different era. Also, career stats always include the tail end of the career which brings averages down. I'm not trying to say 4.2 ypc is bad, but it's not exactly an inspiring number, either. My point was that we've only really got one volume aided season on this guy and he'll be turning 27 next year. I'd feel a lot better about ranking him in the top 5 if (1) there was more data, (2) his YPC was more eye popping, (3) his team wasn't on the brink of a total collapse, and (4) he was younger.
I don't think the era matters. Barry Sanders averaged 5.0 YPC in that era.

And your bolded comment above is just not the case. Here's Faulk's YPC by year:

4.1, 3.7, 3.0. 4.0, 4.1, 5.5, 5.4, 5.3, 4.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.5 for a career average of 4.3.

And yes, he'll turn 27 at the end of next year, so this will really be his year 26 season.

I agree with you that the biggest concern is the coaching change.

 
That's fine. I honestly couldn't care less. I don't own him and don't plan to. On account of it being the fantasy offseason I figured I'd point out an outlier (to me) in the rankings I've seen to generate some discussion. "Consensus rankings and group think are likely to be infallible for the 2018 season" just didn't quite feel right.

Also, just to be clear, the scenarios I threw out were not meant to be assumptions. Just very plausible negative scenarios that people should consider before acquiring him.
This is great conversation. Part of what makes this place great is the back and forth. I love it when someone breaks from consensus and lays out the case.

FWIW- I kind of agree. DJ is still a great back and top asset but will be likely go for more in our auction than I'd be willing to pay. As an example, the uber elite backs in my league hit close to $70 ($165 cap). I'd rather pay $70 for Bell or Zeke or Gurley than $60 for DJ. The surrounding cast has a chance to be ugly in Arizona next year and we don't know who the coach is. It is just my opinion and I could easily be wrong, but that's my gut right now.

 
I don't think the era matters. Barry Sanders averaged 5.0 YPC in that era.

And your bolded comment above is just not the case. Here's Faulk's YPC by year:

4.1, 3.7, 3.0. 4.0, 4.1, 5.5, 5.4, 5.3, 4.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.5 for a career average of 4.3.

And yes, he'll turn 27 at the end of next year, so this will really be his year 26 season.

I agree with you that the biggest concern is the coaching change.
So much cherry picking going on to refute what was an extremely minor point. And bringing Sanders in to make a point about the era is not cool. He's an exception. Anyway, era does matter: http://www.footballperspective.com/career-leaders-in-yards-per-carry-era-adjusted/

JWB pointed out that DJ is about 3 years older than most of the players ranked in the top 15.

ETA: the last 3 years of Faulk's career did drop his YPC from 4.4 to 4.3, so even though you ignored the other players to cherry pick Faulk, it was true for him as well.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Not sure how I'm cherry picking, but whatever.

We'll agree to disagree on DJ.
You gave 3 examples of ex-players from different football eras in a strange attempt to make 4.2 ypc sound better. I said typically their last years drop their ypc. You cherry picked one player out of three to refute that. That was proven wrong in my edit. You also cherry picked Sanders, possibly the best of all time, to (incorrectly) refute my point that era impacts YPC. But again, YPC is the most minor of all my points on why DJ is overvalued. Ignore that point altogether if it is distracting from the other points. 

 
That's a completely subjective opinion.
And???  My subjective opinion is more relevant than only comparing him to other steelers of the psst decade.  His game and abilities are nothing lime those guys.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You gave 3 examples of ex-players from different football eras in a strange attempt to make 4.2 ypc sound better. I said typically their last years drop their ypc. You cherry picked one player out of three to refute that. That was proven wrong in my edit. You also cherry picked Sanders, possibly the best of all time, to (incorrectly) refute my point that era impacts YPC. But again, YPC is the most minor of all my points on why DJ is overvalued. Ignore that point altogether if it is distracting from the other points. 
OK. Whatever. Faulk was the first one I looked at and I didn't want to spend too much time on it. But if you insist.

Payton's YPC by year:

3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 4.2, 4.4, 4,6, 3.6, 4.0, 4.5, 4.4, 4.8, 4.2, 3.7 (on only 146 carries). 

Emmitt's YPC by year:

3.9, 4.3, 4.6, 5.3, 4.0, 4.7, 3.7, 4.1, 4.2, 4.2, 4.1, 3.9, 3.8 (that's just Dallas for an average 4.2 YPC)

It just isnt' true that YPC at the end of a career significantly changes the average. But you believe what you want.

ETA: I will conceed your point about different eras. Relooking at 2016, DJ's YPC was not super impressive compared to the other top RB's. So with YPC being your most minor point about DJ, let's move on.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would agree with your take. Wouldn't fault someone ranking JuJu first but he feels like a short term sell high to me as people as super high on him right now. Typically I have tried to avoid investing at high prices long-term in WR2's that are stuck behind a true stud WR1 that isn't very old yet. Antonio is only turning 30 next season, maybe he pulls an Andre Johnson and drops off very quickly, but even Andre stuck around for 4 more WR1~2 seasons with Houston from the point that Antonio is at now. There have been short bursts and a few notable sustained instances where offenses have been able to support multiple stud WR's but given Big Ben is possibly already thinking of retirement, it's not something I would want to bet on right now given JuJu's likely price point.

While I like JuJu, a small part of me is also remembering that there have been a number of WR2/3's in Pittsburgh the last few years that have burned bright for a short time only to fall out of favor for various reasons.
All fair points. The supporting cast for JuJu may not look so peachy when/if Ben retires.

That said I was pretty high on JuJu as a rookie prospect, even thinking of him as their WR 3 behind Bryant at the time. He did well and kind of exceeded my.expectations as a rookie.

FWIW I was higher on JuJu as a prospect than Diggs. Just how well DIggs performed once he got opportunity changed my outlook on him.

I think Andre Johnson very different than Brown as a player and the situation as well. It seemed like a lot of years there Johnson didn't have a receiver to take advantage of all the extra attention he would get. Johnson was a more physical receiver than Brown, not as much wiggle to his game. I think this is part of why he may have worn down quicker than I expect Brown to. Brown is thriving more off of great routes than physicality, so I do not expect Brown to wear down as much after 30 as a receiver who relies more on their physical tools does, such as Johnson and Moss.

So I don't see JuJu becoming the Steelers WR one any time soon with Brown in his way.

Adam Thielen has overtaken DIggs somewhat this season. Not to the same extreme, but DIggs does have competition for targets as well, which may limit his upside.

It is a difficult call between the two players. I think both are good, so perhaps no wrong answer in that sense, a more detailed pros and cons might help separate them clearly, but regardless I think they will still be very close in value.

 
OK. Whatever. Faulk was the first one I looked at and I didn't want to spend too much time on it. But if you insist.

Payton's YPC by year:

3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 4.2, 4.4, 4,6, 3.6, 4.0, 4.5, 4.4, 4.8, 4.2, 3.7 (on only 146 carries). 

Emmitt's YPC by year:

3.9, 4.3, 4.6, 5.3, 4.0, 4.7, 3.7, 4.1, 4.2, 4.2, 4.1, 3.9, 3.8 (that's just Dallas for an average 4.2 YPC)

It just isnt' true that YPC at the end of a career significantly changes the average. But you believe what you want.
Well, the last 3 years of Faulk's career dropped him by a tenth. That's the only one I did the math on, but it seems pretty clear the last 2 years of Payton's career hurt him and the last 5 of Emmitt's career dropped him (his 2 years in Arizona were bad). 

I never said the change was "significant" but a tenth or two is enough to shoot holes in cherry picked players from different eras who were chosen to refute a minor point.

I wish I hadn't brought ypc up because it is distracting from the fact that he's just got one full season of work, he's about 3 years older than everyone else ranked around him, and his last season before free agency will be on a possible dumpster fire of a team. One bad, recent season can easily tank a guy's dynasty value when he's only got one good season propping him up. The odds of DJ being similarly ranked next year are not as good as the guys around him.

 
Well, the last 3 years of Faulk's career dropped him by a tenth. That's the only one I did the math on, but it seems pretty clear the last 2 years of Payton's career hurt him and the last 5 of Emmitt's career dropped him (his 2 years in Arizona were bad). 

I never said the change was "significant" but a tenth or two is enough to shoot holes in cherry picked players from different eras who were chosen to refute a minor point.

I wish I hadn't brought ypc up because it is distracting from the fact that he's just got one full season of work, he's about 3 years older than everyone else ranked around him, and his last season before free agency will be on a possible dumpster fire of a team. One bad, recent season can easily tank a guy's dynasty value when he's only got one good season propping him up. The odds of DJ being similarly ranked next year are not as good as the guys around him.
You keep saying "cherry picked." I  just grabbed three of the top RB's I could think of and looked at them. 

I agree with your last paragraph.

Time to move on.

 
hmm some strange arguments being made against David Johnson.

The yards per carry is meaningless. Not even going to bother addressing that. The league average is 4.2 to 4.3 and there is nothing wrong with DJ's ypc

The age is something that I think is a legit concern when looking at the long term value of Johnson. 

Part of the reason I ranked him way too low as a rookie prospect was because of his age entering the league. More than that though was that he was from a small school and I only had 3 games I could watch of his to work with at the time. In those games he did not run well between the tackles. Something that likely took time for him to develop at the pro level also. I wasn't the only person to see this weakness in his skill set. Greg Cosell made similar observations. I don't know if Cosell had any more games of his to watch than I did. The game against Iowa in particular showed him being very ineffective running inside. So one third of the sample I had to work with, perhaps for Cosell as well.

As it turns out Iowa was a very good defense at that time. They have had several players from that defense become successful at the pro level and DJ had substandard blocking to counter that. He has shown to be a good runner at the NFL level, although it did take Arians awhile to have confidence in him as a runner. The argument that Arians retiring is going to hurt DJ seems silly to me. If anything Arians likely held him back for awhile longer than he should have.

One thing that seems to be overlooked in this focus on DJ as a runner and his ypc is how great Johnson is as a receiver. He is an elite prospect as a receiver! Seriously I am not sure any RB is as good as he is as a receiver. He is really impressive in that area. The phrase gets thrown around too often, but it is entirely accurate to say that Johnson has elite WR skill set in this aspect of his game. That is something that is not going away, and also something that will age well with him.

The upside he presents as a receiver is tremendous and a large part of the reason he is an elite RB and deserves to be considered top 5 if not the best RB in football.

Imagine if McCaffrey was 230 lbs. That is what Johnson is. A elite receiving RB with the size to be used in every way that a RB could be asked to do. He has the skill set to put up 2k combined yardage seasons. Very strong floor because of his skill as a receiver, he is more script proof than RB who are not as adept catching the ball.

WIth Arians and Palmer retiring that does add some risk and uncertainty to the overall offense. Also possible that Fitzgerald does not return with these developments, although I have not heard about that yet either way. However with this risk also comes increased opportunity for Johnson as a receiver. It does not matter who the coach and QB will be. They will be throwing it to Johnson a ton out of necessity and because he is their best weapon in the passing game (if Fitzgerald remains 1a 1b type scenario).

Getting back to the age issue. Over 25 years of history of RB performance for fantasy I found that the average number of top 12 seasons for a RB was two. So from that perspective, a RB being younger than another does not really increase their chances of having more than two top 12 fantasy seasons. Going into 2018 David Johnson certainly one of the best bets to be a top 12 RB and he has a good a chance to maintain that high level of performance as any RB. The age really doesn't matter that much, because regardless of how young the RB is, they still need to exceed the average of two top 12 seasons for that to matter.

 
Thoughts on Mixon vs CMC?

I've got an offer in which I think I'd be getting good value. 

I own Mixon, took him at #1 overall this past summer. So I know which side I stand on lol - just curious how close or far apart you guys view these 2

 
As do I ... I guess without getting too made into AC territory, I'm wondering what the difference is between the 2.

(owner is offering a late 1st along with CMC for Mixon)
It feels like to me you should do it, take the one.

I'm actually disappointed to hear this, I got some other trades I want to try and complete first and if I'm still holding CMC when I'm done with those deals I had intended to offer him to the Mixon owner, but straight up.

I know I would not offer CMC and a late one for Mixon. Straight up or nada.

 
As do I ... I guess without getting too made into AC territory, I'm wondering what the difference is between the 2.

(owner is offering a late 1st along with CMC for Mixon)
I consider them close to the same value so a 1st round pick could sway me.

Depends on a lot of others things though such as your roster and so on. In a vacuum I think CMC + 1st round pick greater than Mixon.

I ranked CMC ahead of Mixon in pre and post NFL draft process and the way things have played out for their first season doesn't cause me to change that. I had them the same tier though, so essentially equal, just a slight preference for CMC.

 
As do I ... I guess without getting too made into AC territory, I'm wondering what the difference is between the 2.

(owner is offering a late 1st along with CMC for Mixon)
I think when value presents itself, no matter your affinity for a player, you almost have to do the deal.

I love Mixon, but he is still a Cincinnati Bengal.

 
I own DJ in one of my main leagues and will probably be looking to sell this offseason.  The YPC honestly isn't something I had looked at but there are plenty of other concerns.  I think he is in line for a pretty big value drop within the year. 

He's at that age where one off year will really wreck his value (compared to a much younger back who can have a bad year and still retain a lot of value), which is not an unlikely scenario in Arizona with a new coach (will he prefer a bellcow or want to mix someone in?) and new QB who may not like throwing to the RB as much, not to mention the team just not having many scoring opportunities or being able to string a drive together to stay on the field.

I am going to try and move him for Barkley but I doubt it will happen since the extra 6 years of youth are important to teams who earned the 1.1 and have a long ways to go before contending.

 
He's at that age where one off year will really wreck his value (compared to a much younger back who can have a bad year and still retain a lot of value), which is not an unlikely scenario in Arizona with a new coach (will he prefer a bellcow or want to mix someone in?) and new QB who may not like throwing to the RB as much, not to mention the team just not having many scoring opportunities or being able to string a drive together to stay on the field.

I am going to try and move him for Barkley but I doubt it will happen since the extra 6 years of youth are important to teams who earned the 1.1 and have a long ways to go before contending.
If you can move him for 1.1 or even Hunt or Cook I think that's a good move, but there's a point after about 7 other guys where I think it's bad to trade just for youth. I think most of those 7 guys are hard trades though, kind of pick 'ems, where you have to offer up a guy with good value that you just don't like or need to get it done. I don't care that Howard, Gordon, Freeman, or even McCaffery or Mixon are younger. If Mixon or McCafffery have a bad year, I think it affects their value as much as Johnson. (I realize McCaffery had a RB1 year but he did not look good doing so.) Howard and Gordon cannot have a bad year - they could drop a lot.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I’ve inquired about DJ over the past 12 months and have had the opportunity to buy (at very high prices), but have never been able to bring myself to pull the trigger. Just this week the owner has floated his name to me, so I’m discussing his price. But I have a nagging feeling I would be overpaying no matter what. It doesn’t feel that I’m making a rational choice, since DJ always looks good when I watch him play. But he’s only given us 1 good year. He flashed his rookie year and only had a partial game in 2017. Throw in he turns 27 by year end and AZ potentially turning into a dumpster fire, why should I pay?  Seems like I have lots of options to get good RBs and pay less; or if I want to pay top dollar, get Gurley or Zeke. 

 
I think if you’re selling Dj you aren’t getting top 10 dyno value for him anymore from most people. He’s probably s hold and hope he rehabs his value. I’d have a hard time giving up a top 5 pick straight up for him right now- too many variables that can lead to a falloff. I don’t think you can lose your qb and coach and (likely?) your best wr and turn in a top 5 season at rb. 

 
I think if you’re selling Dj you aren’t getting top 10 dyno value for him anymore from most people. He’s probably s hold and hope he rehabs his value. I’d have a hard time giving up a top 5 pick straight up for him right now- too many variables that can lead to a falloff. I don’t think you can lose your qb and coach and (likely?) your best wr and turn in a top 5 season at rb. 
Depends on who replaces them all, and Fitz isn't gone yet. 

Gurley just put up the best season with a new coach, unproven QB, and a new receiving corps. Slightly different with goff at least having been there in 16, but I don't think you can call it impossible.

 
How do you all rank the rookie TEs now? The group looked really promising, still does imo.

Engram clearly did well and is probably the top dog, he has to be a top 5 TE. 

Kittle exceeded expectations. Will he become a top 12 or did he play to his potential as a rookie? 

Howard had a couple nice games and most of us didn't expect him to be startable as a rookie. Is he also top 12?

Njoku suffered more for his team than himself, but the browns haven't shown an ability to improve yet. Kinda figure they have to now but by how much? Seems like he should also be top 12 but that's a lot in the 12... Maybe more top 20 now? 

What about the others? Shaheen had moments, Everett looks like a work in progress, Jonnu Smith could take over for Walker sometime, RSJ flashed. Butt never got going. 

Thoughts on their Dynasty values and expectations?

 
As do I ... I guess without getting too made into AC territory, I'm wondering what the difference is between the 2.

(owner is offering a late 1st along with CMC for Mixon)
I think you should take it, its pretty even straight up without the pick. The pick is gravy

I would probably break my mouse pressing it too hard if someone offered me DJ for a top 5 pick right now, unless it was pick #1.
exactly this, last off season a single early 1st would be laughed at from a DJ owner, its still a bargain tho unless we talkin about barkley

 
I think if you’re selling Dj you aren’t getting top 10 dyno value for him anymore from most people. He’s probably s hold and hope he rehabs his value. I’d have a hard time giving up a top 5 pick straight up for him right now- too many variables that can lead to a falloff. I don’t think you can lose your qb and coach and (likely?) your best wr and turn in a top 5 season at rb. 
I agree with the trade value assessment, because fantasy footballers are very fickle and even in dynasty its a "what have you done for me lately" attitude that often prevails. I still think he's easily worth a top 5 rookie pick (with the exception of 1.01 maybe) since as much as we want every rookie to be a stud, the truth is at least 50% will bust.

I do not want to dismiss the concerns about what could happen in Arizona, because they are valid, but I think some may be going a little too far with the concerns. Many RBs have been successful in spite of bad supporting casts around them and when he was last healthy DJ looked like a difference maker. Unless we see a QB that turns the ball over consistently, I think the team will lean on Johnson and he's talented enough to produce. Sure he will not be scoring 20 TDs again most likely, but the odds  are stacked against every RB doing that.

As far as coaching concerns, I know some coaches like RBBC approaches but one look around the league shows that most of the time that happens it's out of necessity. Do people really think that a new HC is going to utilize Andre Ellington or a mid round rookie over Johnson? I sure don't.

 
The argument that Arians retiring is going to hurt DJ seems silly to me. If anything Arians likely held him back for awhile longer than he should have.

WIth Arians and Palmer retiring that does add some risk and uncertainty to the overall offense.
What's silly is confusing two very different things for the same issue. Sure, Arians probably should've given DJ a larger share of the workload earlier. In that respect, Arians held him back a year. But that's over with. He did give him a massive share of the workload in 2016 and DJ benefited from the fact that Arians runs a very nice offense. So Arians hurt him a little in 2015, but he helped him a LOT in 2016. You contradict your earlier statement when you admit that losing a HC and QB adds risk, so obviously it's not silly to take that into consideration. And like FreeBagel said, DJ is at an age where one off year can wreck his value.

 
I would probably break my mouse pressing it too hard if someone offered me DJ for a top 5 pick right now, unless it was pick #1.
Yep. I have both the 1.04 and DJ in my main league. It would be easier to get the 4 from me, by a fair amount. 

 
DJs yards per carry would be better if the damn end zone stopped getting in the way
I've seen this argument before (I believe in regard to Melvin Gordon), but it doesn't hold up at all. Never seemed to be a problem for AP, McCoy, Lynch, Tomlinson, Alexander, Holmes, etc. Typically, players have some of their best YPC in the years with their best TD totals. There is definitely a positive correlation, so I wouldn't go expecting his YPC to go up just because his TDs are likely to go down in 2018.

But again, I wish I had not brought up YPC at all. It was a very minor point, but I guess it was the lowest hanging fruit so people jumped on it while mostly ignoring the other issues.

 
What's silly is confusing two very different things for the same issue. Sure, Arians probably should've given DJ a larger share of the workload earlier. In that respect, Arians held him back a year. But that's over with. He did give him a massive share of the workload in 2016 and DJ benefited from the fact that Arians runs a very nice offense. So Arians hurt him a little in 2015, but he helped him a LOT in 2016. You contradict your earlier statement when you admit that losing a HC and QB adds risk, so obviously it's not silly to take that into consideration. And like FreeBagel said, DJ is at an age where one off year can wreck his value.
If Arizona hired Pat Schurmer and he brought Case Keenum or Sam Bradford with him - would that alleviate some concerns  about Johnson?

Obviously I'm not saying that will happen, but the rumors are Shurmer will bring Keenum or Bradford with him and Shurmer is a candidate for the Cardinals job. The point here is not every scenario is doom and gloom for the future. On the flip side I do admit there is risk that we get some overmatched HC and a bust rookie under center next year - I do think the former is more likely though. Arizona has good ownership, its a nice place to live and they still have a better than average defense in place. It's an attractive place for one of the top coaching candidates. Cook was having a great season in Minnesota (with no RBBC) and Murray/McKinnon didn't drop off much (yes that was a RBBC but neither back is all that good).

 
If Arizona hired Pat Schurmer and he brought Case Keenum or Sam Bradford with him - would that alleviate some concerns  about Johnson?

Obviously I'm not saying that will happen, but the rumors are Shurmer will bring Keenum or Bradford with him and Shurmer is a candidate for the Cardinals job. The point here is not every scenario is doom and gloom for the future. On the flip side I do admit there is risk that we get some overmatched HC and a bust rookie under center next year - I do think the former is more likely though. Arizona has good ownership, its a nice place to live and they still have a better than average defense in place. It's an attractive place for one of the top coaching candidates. Cook was having a great season in Minnesota (with no RBBC) and Murray/McKinnon didn't drop off much (yes that was a RBBC but neither back is all that good).
Well, a Shurmur/Keenum combo  :X would not alleviate concerns (although maybe I shouldn't hold his Browns stint against him), but I get your point and didn't mean to imply that there are no HC/QB combos out there that have potential to be good in year 1. I'm admittedly not well versed on how year 1 takeovers typically go, but I feel like there are usually growing pains in year 1. I agree that the defense is above average, but Arizona has invested in OL recently and come up empty (did not grade out very well this year, I believe), the WR cupboard is just about bare, they are near the bottom of the league in anticipated cap room, their division is looking stronger and stronger, and the QB + HC positions are not historically easy to fill.

FF is a game of probability and while I fully agree there are positive scenarios out there for the Cards, I feel that the odds are strongly against them in the first year. So while a rising tide lifts all boats, the opposite is typically true as well. Like has been addressed, DJ is an elite receiving RB, but is he a good enough runner to overcome a mediocre at best OL and a possibly poor passing offense? His age and free agency status makes for volatile dynasty value. At his current price, I want no part of that stock.

 
Well, a Shurmur/Keenum combo  :X would not alleviate concerns (although maybe I shouldn't hold his Browns stint against him), but I get your point and didn't mean to imply that there are no HC/QB combos out there that have potential to be good in year 1. I'm admittedly not well versed on how year 1 takeovers typically go, but I feel like there are usually growing pains in year 1. I agree that the defense is above average, but Arizona has invested in OL recently and come up empty (did not grade out very well this year, I believe), the WR cupboard is just about bare, they are near the bottom of the league in anticipated cap room, their division is looking stronger and stronger, and the QB + HC positions are not historically easy to fill.

FF is a game of probability and while I fully agree there are positive scenarios out there for the Cards, I feel that the odds are strongly against them in the first year. So while a rising tide lifts all boats, the opposite is typically true as well. Like has been addressed, DJ is an elite receiving RB, but is he a good enough runner to overcome a mediocre at best OL and a possibly poor passing offense? His age and free agency status makes for volatile dynasty value. At his current price, I want no part of that stock.
I'm not a Keenum (or Bradford) fan really but Shurmur has him playing well and they would at least be competent. Although Shurmur did fail in Cleveland he has shown to have a good offensive mind and would utilize DJ.

As I said from the beginning, I can see your point about Johnson's dynasty value - there is certainly some risks going forward. I just think the talent is apparent as well and if it was not for an injured 2017 this conversation likely does not even come up. Now we have people saying that they would move DJ for the 1.04/1.05 pick which to me is going way to the We keep saying 27 - but we haven't even seen his age 26 season really (he turns 27 in December).

 
Depends on who replaces them all, and Fitz isn't gone yet. 

Gurley just put up the best season with a new coach, unproven QB, and a new receiving corps. Slightly different with goff at least having been there in 16, but I don't think you can call it impossible.
We have the benefit of hindsight to see that Goff, the 1st overall pick of 2016, was actually a pretty damn good QB... the OL was vastly improved - largely due to replacing one of the worst linemen in the NFL (Greg Robinson) with one of the best (Andrew Whitworth), and the combo of Woods (forms 2.09 pick) + Watkins (1.04) + Kupp (3.05) was actually quite competent. Last but obviously not least, Sean McVay did a hell of a job as the new HC.

Given how good all those aspects were, I think it safe to say there is less than a 1% chance of the Cardinals reproducing the Rams success. So yes, not impossible, but if I'm trading for a player or doing a startup, I'm looking for better odds than "not impossible".  ;)

How do you all rank the rookie TEs now? The group looked really promising, still does imo.

Engram clearly did well and is probably the top dog, he has to be a top 5 TE. 

Kittle exceeded expectations. Will he become a top 12 or did he play to his potential as a rookie? 

Howard had a couple nice games and most of us didn't expect him to be startable as a rookie. Is he also top 12?

Njoku suffered more for his team than himself, but the browns haven't shown an ability to improve yet. Kinda figure they have to now but by how much? Seems like he should also be top 12 but that's a lot in the 12... Maybe more top 20 now? 

What about the others? Shaheen had moments, Everett looks like a work in progress, Jonnu Smith could take over for Walker sometime, RSJ flashed. Butt never got going. 

Thoughts on their Dynasty values and expectations?
Man, this is really tough. I think you gotta put Engram in the top 4 with Gronk, Kelce, and Ertz. I'm going to call that the top tier. People can debate making Gronk his own tier if they want to, but I'm going to keep it simple.

After that, it's a mess. Now that Gates has the TE TD record, I'm guessing he hangs them up which would default Henry into tier 2. I try not to be ageist but I'm disqualifying Olsen, Walker, and Graham from tier 2 and I'm putting Howard and Njoku in there. Might be a year premature on both of them since Brate will likely be back under a cheap RFA tender and who knows when the Browns will get it together. I think Higbee holds Everett back for at least another year so I wouldn't invest in him at this tier. Kittle and Shaheen are intersting. They both should see solid snap share in year 2, but is Kittle even that good? I've got him, but don't know how to value him. I don't think he belongs in the top 12. I think Rudolph belongs in the bottom of tier 2. So before this gets convoluted:

  • Gronk
  • Ertz
  • Kelce
  • Engram


  • Henry
  • Howard
  • Njoku
  • Rudolph (28)
  • Doyle (27)


  • Shaheen
  • Graham (31)
  • Olsen (32)
  • Reed (27 - but will he ever be healthy?)
  • ASJ (25 - seemed to turn the corner this year)
  • Eifert (27 - see Reed comment)


  • Hooper (23 - feel underrated here given his )
  • Kittle (24 - ideal opportunity in 2018, but replacement level talent?)
  • Ebron (24 - still young enough to develop... see Rudolph career arc)
  • Brate (26 - shown enough to earn a shot in 2019?)
I'm not really a rankings guy, so I'm sure I missed a couple. Apologies.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top