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***Chicago Bears Thread*** Coach of the year. AC of the Year. Pace robbed for GM of year

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On 1/7/2019 at 4:31 PM, mbuehner said:

Right, the bottom line is it was called incomplete and should not have been reviewed.

The ref should have said "The ruling on the field was incomplete pass. By rule, because there was no clear recovery, the play is not subject to review."

One more time...  Let's see how much your goal posts sway.

The play had to be reviewed.  If during the review, Miller was determined to be down by contact then the ruling is a completion.  At that point in time, the ref can't be certain if Miller was down by contact...  But you have to conduct the review to determine what did and didn't happen - and that includes the aspect of recovery.

Only after it is determined that he was not down by contact does "no clear recovery" come into play and we understand the ruling... 

The bottom line is the play had to be reviewed to determine it wasn't subject to review.  In other words, they couldn't reverse the call.

Ironically, had the play happened in the end zone - it is a Touchdown.

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5 hours ago, [scooter] said:

Based on the language of the rulebook, the play shouldn't have even been reviewed:

"When a pass is ruled incomplete, either team can challenge that it was a catch and fumble and that they gained possession of the ball, if there is a clear recovery."

Since there was no clear recovery, the referee could have announced to the crowd that the ball was not recovered and therefore the play will not be reviewed. But there was no harm in reviewing the play anyway, just to confirm that there was, indeed, no clear recovery.

My point is that it would have been physically impossible for any Bear player to make a clear recovery on this play, since the ball was flung several yards away and the referee blew the whistle before any Bear had a chance to pick it up. In order to qualify as a "clear recovery", the ball must be recovered BEFORE the whistle is blown (or in the immediate moments after the whistle). That wasn't possible in this case, as the ref blew the whistle as soon as the ball touched the ground.

So a team couldn't challenge that it was a catch and NOT a fumble?

There's a lot going on with this play...seems a stretch to say it couldn't be reviewed at all....and again...no Bear would have recovered as there were 3 or 4 Eagles upright and closer to the ball then any Bear.

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30 minutes ago, renesauz said:

So a team couldn't challenge that it was a catch and NOT a fumble?

There's a lot going on with this play...seems a stretch to say it couldn't be reviewed at all....and again...no Bear would have recovered as there were 3 or 4 Eagles upright and closer to the ball then any Bear.

The very, very, very specific rule says that play could not be reviewed, just like a forward progress call cant be reviewed. You can complain about the rule, but it exists and they invoked it.

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1 hour ago, DropKick said:

One more time...  Let's see how much your goal posts sway.

The play had to be reviewed.  If during the review, Miller was determined to be down by contact then the ruling is a completion.  At that point in time, the ref can't be certain if Miller was down by contact...  But you have to conduct the review to determine what did and didn't happen - and that includes the aspect of recovery.

Only after it is determined that he was not down by contact does "no clear recovery" come into play and we understand the ruling... 

The bottom line is the play had to be reviewed to determine it wasn't subject to review.  In other words, they couldn't reverse the call.

Ironically, had the play happened in the end zone - it is a Touchdown.

One more time, the play COULD NOT BE, AND WASNT REVIWED. As soon as the referee ruled it incomplete and no one recovered the ball, it was an incomplete pass, for now and forever. From the NFLs point of view, it was instantly permanent. Miller, at that second, could never be ruled down by contact, because he never caught the ball, and no power of god nor man nor Goodell could change that under NFL rules.

Youre arguing something equivalent to reviewing a fumble after a play is whistled dead for forward progress. IT CANT HAPPEN. The play is dead and unreviewable at that second, because you cant review forward progress calls. You also cant review incompletions where a loose ball isnt recovered. Thats it. There is no down by contact because there is no catch and no mechanism for making it a catch ever again.

 

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1 hour ago, mbuehner said:

The very, very, very specific rule says that play could not be reviewed, just like a forward progress call cant be reviewed. You can complain about the rule, but it exists and they invoked it.

Ummm...who was complaining about the rule? It's a good darn rule. Problem is that even without a clear recovery, you could still review whether a fumble occurred at all. No fumble would mean no recovery.  The fumble was NOT clear, therefore it was NOT clear until after they looked at it in replay that they couldn't overturn. You're being obstinate here. Whether they look or not is immaterial...what was material was that once they realized there WAS a fumble, nothing about the call on the field could be changed. THAT is what the rule means.

OK...with your comparison you're almost making my point for me. That can't be reviewed because it's a judgement call. BUt guess what...even then a coach can challenge the resulting spot...they can review a DIFFERENT ASPECT of the same play. No...they can't go back and award the QB/RB with the extra yards they wgot when they spun out of the sure tackle...but they can review and award the progress gained before the whistle if it made the difference of a first down or not. Just because one aspect of a play is not reviewable doesn't make the whole play not reviewable. UNtil the fumble is called a fumble, the (non)recovery is meaningless and the act of the catch itself could be looked at.

This play was weird...it DESERVED a look in replay. Had his knee been down, they would have given the Bears the yardage.

Edited by renesauz

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4 minutes ago, Epic Problem said:

Fangio's gone. 

:(

Of course. Every time there's a glimmer of hope for this team, it gets squashed immediately. 

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Betrayed.  Guess he didn’t love Chicago as much as he indicated.  DEN already has a solid D, so it’s a bit puzzling.  

Bowles is still available, but word was he was considering going to Tampa to be with Arians.

Edited by -X-

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1 hour ago, -X- said:

Betrayed.  Guess he didn’t love Chicago as much as he indicated.  DEN already has a solid D, so it’s a bit puzzling.  

Bowles is still available, but word was he was considering going to Tampa to be with Arians.

Puzzing? The team already has a solid defense, so he wont have much work to do on that side of the ball. I think its a no brainer.

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2 hours ago, -X- said:

Betrayed.  Guess he didn’t love Chicago as much as he indicated.  DEN already has a solid D, so it’s a bit puzzling.  

Bowles is still available, but word was he was considering going to Tampa to be with Arians.

Are you crazy???  Someone offers you a head coaching job and you take it, especially when you are already at 60 and those jobs start going to younger coaches.  Your name is only hot for so long, you don't wait for another opportunity, you take the job. 

Zero betrayal, really sad he won't be here, but guy was a hell of a coach and deserves the shot at a HC gig. 

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Bears fans need to get used to it. When you have a good team, people start wanting your coaches.  Wondering what's going to happen with Ragone. 

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Fangio leaving is so big it cannot be quantified. this team will regress bigtime.back to 8-8 / 7-9 they overachieved in 2018 regression is ahead. 

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19 hours ago, mbuehner said:

One more time, the play COULD NOT BE, AND WASNT REVIWED. As soon as the referee ruled it incomplete and no one recovered the ball, it was an incomplete pass, for now and forever. From the NFLs point of view, it was instantly permanent. Miller, at that second, could never be ruled down by contact, because he never caught the ball, and no power of god nor man nor Goodell could change that under NFL rules.

Youre arguing something equivalent to reviewing a fumble after a play is whistled dead for forward progress. IT CANT HAPPEN. The play is dead and unreviewable at that second, because you cant review forward progress calls. You also cant review incompletions where a loose ball isnt recovered. Thats it. There is no down by contact because there is no catch and no mechanism for making it a catch ever again.

 

You are 100% absolutely stone cold wrong.

The play was reviewed.  The finding of the review was that the ball was complete but fumbled.  And, since there was no clear recovery, the call on the field could not be changed.

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21 minutes ago, Tanner9919 said:

Fangio leaving is so big it cannot be quantified. this team will regress bigtime.back to 8-8 / 7-9 they overachieved in 2018 regression is ahead. 

Negative 

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18 hours ago, renesauz said:

Ummm...who was complaining about the rule? It's a good darn rule. Problem is that even without a clear recovery, you could still review whether a fumble occurred at all. No fumble would mean no recovery.  The fumble was NOT clear, therefore it was NOT clear until after they looked at it in replay that they couldn't overturn. You're being obstinate here. Whether they look or not is immaterial...what was material was that once they realized there WAS a fumble, nothing about the call on the field could be changed. THAT is what the rule means.

OK...with your comparison you're almost making my point for me. That can't be reviewed because it's a judgement call. BUt guess what...even then a coach can challenge the resulting spot...they can review a DIFFERENT ASPECT of the same play. No...they can't go back and award the QB/RB with the extra yards they wgot when they spun out of the sure tackle...but they can review and award the progress gained before the whistle if it made the difference of a first down or not. Just because one aspect of a play is not reviewable doesn't make the whole play not reviewable. UNtil the fumble is called a fumble, the (non)recovery is meaningless and the act of the catch itself could be looked at.

This play was weird...it DESERVED a look in replay. Had his knee been down, they would have given the Bears the yardage.

This is correct.  Had be been in the end zone, it would have been a TD.  The only thing that has to be established there is the reception.

He has taken the wording governing catch/fumbles and erroneously applied it to review of all completions.  Mind boggling really...

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In regard to Fangio leaving, I don't think this needs to be a doom and gloom situation.  No doubt, Vic is extremely good at what he does (from a coordinator perspective).  But there are other coaches who are also very good at coordinator work as well.

Without a doubt, Fangio benefited from the personnel he had to work with, obviously starting with Khalil Mack.  I think it's fair to say that even with a lesser scheme, the quality of the players the Bears have on defense should still equate to a top 10 squad.

Even if the Bears regress on defense, we should expect improvement from the offense as a whole, from Nagy as a play caller, and from Trubisky.  Vic staying or leaving isn't a zero sum game - there's more than one way to get to the ultimate goal.

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21 hours ago, mbuehner said:

One more time, the play COULD NOT BE, AND WASNT REVIWED. As soon as the referee ruled it incomplete and no one recovered the ball, it was an incomplete pass, for now and forever. From the NFLs point of view, it was instantly permanent. Miller, at that second, could never be ruled down by contact, because he never caught the ball, and no power of god nor man nor Goodell could change that under NFL rules.

Youre arguing something equivalent to reviewing a fumble after a play is whistled dead for forward progress. IT CANT HAPPEN. The play is dead and unreviewable at that second, because you cant review forward progress calls. You also cant review incompletions where a loose ball isnt recovered. Thats it. There is no down by contact because there is no catch and no mechanism for making it a catch ever again.

 

The irony in this is off the charts....

Had Miller bobbled the ball and NEVER had control - something that happens on a weekly basis - they would have simply said the receiver never controlled the ball and it is an incomplete pass.  You do agree there is no need to discuss recovery of a ball that was never possessed to be fumbled?

The review (that didn't happen) concluded the ball was caught.  Had Miller been down by contact, the review would result in a completion and down by contact at the spot.  You do agree there is no need to discuss a fumble after the play was over?

Had the ball gone out of bounds, it would have been Bears' ball at the spot. 

Had either team picked up the ball (and not the referee); they would have been awarded the ball at the spot of recovery.

But, since the review (that didn't happen) did reveal that the ball was caught; the player was NOT down by contact; the ball didn't go out of bounds; and no one picked up the ball - a very specific rule for this very specific set of circumstances said the play was not subject to review (and could not be overturned).

So, yes, the play was reviewed and determined not subject to review.  Had different conclusions been made during the review, the play COULD have been overturned.

Your taking the correct ruling of a catch/fumble situation; turning it on its head; and assuming it means that incomplete passes can never be reviewed on the basis of clear recovery.  Common sense should tell you that recovery is only relevant when the ball was fumbled.

 

 

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19 hours ago, The Tick said:

Are you crazy???  Someone offers you a head coaching job and you take it, especially when you are already at 60 and those jobs start going to younger coaches.  Your name is only hot for so long, you don't wait for another opportunity, you take the job. 

Zero betrayal, really sad he won't be here, but guy was a hell of a coach and deserves the shot at a HC gig. 

No, it was a quickfire reaction to the news as I didn’t have time to mull over my post as I was constructing it.

It was his defense that let Foles & co. stroll on down the field in the second half and score 2 TDs.  Of course it’s on the players to perform, but it was also on him as the playcaller.  All season Nagy has been talking about being selfless and finishing, then Vic bolts at the first HC opportunity after his D caved and didn’t finish (it never should’ve come down to Parkey’s kick).

So he turned in his cush skybox seat, will get back down on the sideline and see how those old bones feel.  If you’ve seen any of his press conferences, he clearly does not enjoy them.

Never have liked the Broncos and this makes me like them even less.  He’ll get to go up against Reid, Lynn & Gruden so he’s making it hard on himself.  He is inheriting a train wreck at the QB position.  Good for him for taking a shot at the first HC offer received, but I still believe loyalty to this team trumps individual success.

Regardless, Pace & Nagy will find a rising star DC that winds up being even better.  Maybe not initially, but eventually.

Edited by -X-

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Parker making round on morning shows now? Get real, dude! They need to cut this idiot already. Not cool

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Pagano DC. Solid veteran hire to replace Vic. I like it 

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Not bad.  Oviously not a rising star guy but apparently they put a high value on experience.

From what little I read, his DBs had a low net passing yds/play as secondary coach with the Ravens from 2008-2010.  Then in 2011 he was promoted to DC and they went on to have the #1 DVOA (#6 in 2010), so we may not even see much of a dropoff.

Wiltfong Jr. has a bunch of other stats from that era here:

https://twitter.com/wiltfongjr/status/1083932663730372610?s=20

Edited by -X-

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3 hours ago, flapgreen said:

Parker making round on morning shows now? Get real, dude! They need to cut this idiot already. Not cool

DeVante, Martin, or Preston?

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Donatell deciding between staying with Bears as DB coach or going with Vic.  Also Rob Ryan in consideration as LB coach. 

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Someone remind me why we cut LeBlanc, which I thought was a bad move at the time, but didn’t bring it up here.  That guy has always been a solid backup and he made some key plays vs. us last week.

Just made a huge INT on the first play of the game, helping PHI get the early lead vs. NO.

In retrospect, I suspect LeBlanc had PLENTY to say to his coaches regarding the Bears’ offensive tendencies and playcalls.

Just another under-the-radar observation.

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2 hours ago, -X- said:

Someone remind me why we cut LeBlanc, which I thought was a bad move at the time, but didn’t bring it up here.  That guy has always been a solid backup and he made some key plays vs. us last week.

Just made a huge INT on the first play of the game, helping PHI get the early lead vs. NO.

In retrospect, I suspect LeBlanc had PLENTY to say to his coaches regarding the Bears’ offensive tendencies and playcalls.

Just another under-the-radar observation.

Leblanc was solid for us but Callahan was a huge upgrade. Will likely be the Bears biggest re-sign next year. 

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Alshon blows it for the Eagles on the last play after mocking Bears fans after the game last week. Poetic justice and takes the sting off of last week a little.  That's what you get, thug. 

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Bears leave open the door to pursue Hunt

ESPN's Jeff Dickerson reports Bears GM Ryan Pace was "noncommittal" on the idea of pursuing free agent RB Kareem Hunt this offseason.

The Bears will be a rumored destination because of coach Matt Nagy's Chiefs connection. Pace did not exactly deny it at Monday's season-ending presser, while Nagy said he has spoken to Hunt by phone this month. "It’s an unfortunate situation (and) learning lesson for everybody," Nagy said. Currently being investigated for three separate off-the-field incidents, Hunt probably isn't going to generate any interest until the length of his suspension is known.

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39 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Bears leave open the door to pursue Hunt

ESPN's Jeff Dickerson reports Bears GM Ryan Pace was "noncommittal" on the idea of pursuing free agent RB Kareem Hunt this offseason.

The Bears will be a rumored destination because of coach Matt Nagy's Chiefs connection. Pace did not exactly deny it at Monday's season-ending presser, while Nagy said he has spoken to Hunt by phone this month. "It’s an unfortunate situation (and) learning lesson for everybody," Nagy said. Currently being investigated for three separate off-the-field incidents, Hunt probably isn't going to generate any interest until the length of his suspension is known.

No way 

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Matt Nagy with some very pointed comments on the Cody Parkey Today show appearance: “I didn’t think that was too much of a ‘we’ thing.”

Pace: "The kicker position will be a point of emphasis for us."

Predictably, that turd won't be back. 

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#Bears GM Ryan Pace "Our plan is to pick up that 5th year option" when talking about OLB Leonard Floyd. 

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2 hours ago, eoMMan said:

Alshon has a ring....just saying. 

He'll quit and start missing games when times get tough. 

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Considering we have no 1st & 2nd round pick this offseason and after Nagy & Pace did not completely dismiss the possibility of giving Hunt a second chance here, why the hell not?  Vick went to prison for nearly 2 years and Reid gave him a second chance.

Would it be controversial?  Absolutely.  I watched that vid at least 30 times.  Mixon’s assault vid was far worse.  A two-handed shove and weak footsie kick is nothing compared to straight cold-cocking someone in the jaw, female or not.

Bye, Parkey.

Edited by -X-

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I can only wonder how the Ray McDonald signing/release impacted Pace. He took a risk there and ended up with egg on his face.

At least it shows he will consider second chances.

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"I love Chicago. Chicago will always be home. I love Bears fans. I love the city. I will always be a Bear. One day I will probably retire a Bear."
 - Kicker Robbie Gould on the Prostyle Podcast

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21 hours ago, flapgreen said:

"I love Chicago. Chicago will always be home. I love Bears fans. I love the city. I will always be a Bear. One day I will probably retire a Bear."
 - Kicker Robbie Gould on the Prostyle Podcast

I'd love to have Gould back. I think half the kicking game is mental and the guy knows he is loved here. He knows what Bears fans just went through. He only needs to be a bit better than Parkey and it is a win all around. 

Seems like the pressure is off and say it was Gould that cost us that game, we'd forgive and move on 10 times faster for him. 

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The @PFWAwriters award winners:

Coach of the Year: Matt Nagy
Assistant of the Year: Vic Fangio
Executive of the Year: Chris Ballard

A joke Pace not getting GM of the year but I guess they didn't want to give it all to one team 

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