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Trump poised to end DACA as early as Friday (2 Viewers)

Bruce Dickinson said:
For proper context, here's a link to a full speech from 2006 where Obama makes a statement similar to quoted one, but also says:

"we must allow undocumented immigrants to come out of the shadows and step on a path toward full participation in our society. In fact, I will not support any bill that does not provide this earned path to citizenship for the undocumented population--not just for humanitarian reasons; not just because these people, having broken the law, did so for the best of motives, to try and provide a better life for their children and their grandchildren; but also because this is the only practical way we can get a handle on the population that is within our borders right now."

"I know that dealing with the undocumented population is difficult, for practical and political reasons. But we simply cannot claim to have dealt with the problems of illegal immigration if we ignore the illegal resident population or pretend they will leave voluntarily. Some of the proposed ideas in Congress provide a temporary legal status and call for deportation, but fail to answer how the government would deport 11 million people. I don't know how it would be done. I don't know how we would line up all the buses and trains and airplanes and send 11 million people back to their countries of origin. I don't know why it is that we expect they would voluntarily leave after having taken the risk of coming to this country without proper documentation."

"It behooves us to remember that not every single immigrant who came into the United States through Ellis Island had proper documentation. Not every one of our grandparents or great-grandparents would have necessarily qualified for legal immigration. But they came here in search of a dream, in search of hope. Americans understand that, and they are willing to give an opportunity to those who are already here, as long as we get serious about making sure that our borders actually mean something."
Click to expand...
Here was Obama on the Senate floor in 2007

"In approaching immigration reform, I believe we must enact tough, practical reforms that ensure and promote the legal and orderly entry of immigrants into our country."

"I continue to believe that we need stronger enforcement on the border and at the workplace. And that means a workable mandatory system that employers must use to verify the legality of their workers."

Obama again in 2005

"We all agree on the need to better secure the border, and to punish employers who choose to hire illegal immigrants."

"We need to start by giving agencies charged with border security new technology, new facilities and more people to stop, process and deport illegal immigrants."

"Right now we've got millions of illegal immigrants who live and work here without knowing their identity or background."

"Let me repeat: We need strong border security at the borders."

Not long ago, both Democrats and Republicans advocated safe, secure borders and an immigration policy of admitting immigrants who benefit, not burden, Americans. Que pasó?

 
Don't Noonan said:
Here was Obama on the Senate floor in 2007

"In approaching immigration reform, I believe we must enact tough, practical reforms that ensure and promote the legal and orderly entry of immigrants into our country."

"I continue to believe that we need stronger enforcement on the border and at the workplace. And that means a workable mandatory system that employers must use to verify the legality of their workers."

Obama again in 2005

"We all agree on the need to better secure the border, and to punish employers who choose to hire illegal immigrants."

"We need to start by giving agencies charged with border security new technology, new facilities and more people to stop, process and deport illegal immigrants."

"Right now we've got millions of illegal immigrants who live and work here without knowing their identity or background."

"Let me repeat: We need strong border security at the borders."

Not long ago, both Democrats and Republicans advocated safe, secure borders and an immigration policy of admitting immigrants who benefit, not burden, Americans. Que pasó?
Click to expand...
None of this has to do with Dreamers though. You know that right?  

 
The Commish said:
The gut wrenching part of this whole thing to me is that those who DO have the loudest voices also claim to be followers of Christ, yet it's tough to find any of their actions that Jesus would approve of.
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we agree 100% on that, its why I am against almost all organized religions ..... 

 
McJose said:
Who is being disrespected? 
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I feel its disrespectful - I quit watching NFL and although I did watch the Super Bowl I think rating are down for the year and Super Bowl because people hate the kneeling - it offends them.

CEO of Papa Johns had to quite, NFL owners are having to address it ........... you have to know and recognize people don't like it for whatever reasons that have. Its also the very reason players do it - to get in the headlines and stir things up. Although this time, I think they misread how bad it would be

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
"we must allow undocumented immigrants to come out of the shadows and step on a path toward full participation in our society. In fact, I will not support any bill that does not provide this earned path to citizenship for the undocumented population--not just for humanitarian reasons; not just because these people, having broken the law, did so for the best of motives, to try and provide a better life for their children and their grandchildren; but also because this is the only practical way we can get a handle on the population that is within our borders right now."
Click to expand...
and did he accomplish that along with everything else ?

no - Obama, like GW Bush and Clinton before him failed to secure borders, failed on VISA overstays, failed at solutions to DACA type people ........... where they failed, Trump is going to succeed one way or the other IMO

I hope he does anyway

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
For proper context, here's a link to a full speech from 2006 where Obama makes a statement similar to quoted one, but also says:

"we must allow undocumented immigrants to come out of the shadows and step on a path toward full participation in our society. In fact, I will not support any bill that does not provide this earned path to citizenship for the undocumented population--not just for humanitarian reasons; not just because these people, having broken the law, did so for the best of motives, to try and provide a better life for their children and their grandchildren; but also because this is the only practical way we can get a handle on the population that is within our borders right now."

"I know that dealing with the undocumented population is difficult, for practical and political reasons. But we simply cannot claim to have dealt with the problems of illegal immigration if we ignore the illegal resident population or pretend they will leave voluntarily. Some of the proposed ideas in Congress provide a temporary legal status and call for deportation, but fail to answer how the government would deport 11 million people. I don't know how it would be done. I don't know how we would line up all the buses and trains and airplanes and send 11 million people back to their countries of origin. I don't know why it is that we expect they would voluntarily leave after having taken the risk of coming to this country without proper documentation."

"It behooves us to remember that not every single immigrant who came into the United States through Ellis Island had proper documentation. Not every one of our grandparents or great-grandparents would have necessarily qualified for legal immigration. But they came here in search of a dream, in search of hope. Americans understand that, and they are willing to give an opportunity to those who are already here, as long as we get serious about making sure that our borders actually mean something."
Click to expand...
Facts don’t matter...correct text doesn’t matter.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Here was Obama on the Senate floor in 2007

"In approaching immigration reform, I believe we must enact tough, practical reforms that ensure and promote the legal and orderly entry of immigrants into our country."

"I continue to believe that we need stronger enforcement on the border and at the workplace. And that means a workable mandatory system that employers must use to verify the legality of their workers."

Obama again in 2005

"We all agree on the need to better secure the border, and to punish employers who choose to hire illegal immigrants."

"We need to start by giving agencies charged with border security new technology, new facilities and more people to stop, process and deport illegal immigrants."

"Right now we've got millions of illegal immigrants who live and work here without knowing their identity or background."

"Let me repeat: We need strong border security at the borders."

Not long ago, both Democrats and Republicans advocated safe, secure borders and an immigration policy of admitting immigrants who benefit, not burden, Americans. Que pasó?
Click to expand...
To promote legal...yiu understand the current GOP or moreover Trump not only wamtto stall DACA...they want to severely limit legal immigration.

None if that above affects what people are saying about DACA.

 
Don't Noonan said:
How about these quotes by Bill Clinton during his State of the Union address in 1995

"Our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record number of new border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by barring welfare benefits to illegal aliens." 

"All Americans, not only in the states most heavily affected but in every place in this country, are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country. The jobs they hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants. The public services they use impose burdens on our taxpayers."

"We will try to do more to speed the deportation of illegal aliens who are arrested for crimes, to better identify illegal aliens in the workplace."

"We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws. It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."
Click to expand...
Don’t Noonan, as I have expressed many times, I’m in favor of a path to citizenship for all undocumented people who are not violent felons or public health risks, and I’m for nearly unlimited immigration and open borders. I disagree with any politician from either party who opposes these ideas (which means almost all of them.) If you’re trying to prove some kind of double standard or hypocrisy from the Democrats you’re talking to the wrong person. 

 
Stealthycat said:
I feel its disrespectful - I quit watching NFL and although I did watch the Super Bowl I think rating are down for the year and Super Bowl because people hate the kneeling - it offends them.

CEO of Papa Johns had to quite, NFL owners are having to address it ........... you have to know and recognize people don't like it for whatever reasons that have. Its also the very reason players do it - to get in the headlines and stir things up. Although this time, I think they misread how bad it would be
Click to expand...
Yes, the ratings were down 3% for the Super Bowl but maybe that was because people didn't expect it to be a good game with the Patriots once again being a solid favorite. Despite that, this SB broadcast ranked as one of the 10 most-watched American television programs of all time, coming in at number 10 behind every Super Bowl from 2010 to 2017 and the series finale of “MASH.”

And Papa Johns CEO stepped down because he blamed falling sales on the kneeling protests, instead of the fact they sell crappy pizza that tastes like cardboard smothered in ketchup. Other pizza chains did not see similarly declining sales and some showed modest sales increase over the prior year.

 
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timschochet said:
Don’t Noonan, as I have expressed many times, I’m in favor of a path to citizenship for all undocumented people who are not violent felons or public health risks, and I’m for nearly unlimited immigration and open borders. I disagree with any politician from either party who opposes these ideas (which means almost all of them.) If you’re trying to prove some kind of double standard or hypocrisy from the Democrats you’re talking to the wrong person. 
Click to expand...
I believe you Tim.  It is the mainstream Democrats who seemed to have flipped on this position.   I wonder why?

 
Don't Noonan said:
I believe you Tim.  It is the mainstream Democrats who seemed to have flipped on this position.   I wonder why?
Click to expand...
Two reasons: 

1. The cynical ones want to maintain and increase the Latino vote without losing the white blue collar vote. So they’re schizophrenic and pretend to support all sides. 

2. The idealistic ones want to do what’s right, and they’re trying to push the rest of the party into it. 

 
Don't Noonan said:
I believe you Tim.  It is the mainstream Democrats who seemed to have flipped on this position.   I wonder why?
Click to expand...
It’s a complex issue you’re trying to oversimplify to the point that we can’t have a meaningful conversation with you about it.  

We could play back videos of Reagan and Bush from the 1980 primaries and claim Republicans have flipped on the issue and wonder why.  But that doesn’t get us any closer to understanding the issues of immigration today.  

If you’re not going to allow anyone to have a nuanced thought, or a public figure to change their mind on a complicated topic that changes over time, you’re not prepared to have an honest conversation about it.

 
The Commish said:
I think he'd use any vehicle at his disposal to push his message just like he did 2000 years ago.  So if he saw an opportunity to push his message via politics, that's what he'd do.  That's why I participate in politics.  I see a way to push his message in our political climate.  I am just not part of the loudest voices (yet) in the political arena.  The gut wrenching part of this whole thing to me is that those who DO have the loudest voices also claim to be followers of Christ, yet it's tough to find any of their actions that Jesus would approve of.
Click to expand...
We need to have a virtue signaling flag emoji so you can shorten this down to one graphic.

 
Don't Noonan said:
I believe you Tim.  It is the mainstream Democrats who seemed to have flipped on this position.   I wonder why?
Click to expand...
For the same reason the GOP has turned their back on deficit/debt.  It was politically expedient.  They really aren't all that different when push comes to shove.  That's what's been elected into office :shrug:  

 
Stealthycat said:
we agree 100% on that, its why I am against almost all organized religions ..... 
Click to expand...
Not sure it's all that helpful to be opposed to the tool.  You should be opposed to the person using the tool incorrectly.  This is for another thread, but politics becomes really simple and straight forward if you hold people accountable.  The religion isn't the problem.  How it's used is the problem. Why people focus on the tool over the individual has always escaped me.

 
squistion said:
And Papa Johns CEO stepped down because he blamed falling sales on the kneeling protests, instead of the fact they sell crappy pizza that tastes like cardboard smothered in ketchup. Other pizza chains did not see similarly declining sales and some showed modest sales increase over the prior year.
Click to expand...
yeah, he looks like a liar to me too  :unsure:

 
The Commish said:
Not sure it's all that helpful to be opposed to the tool.  You should be opposed to the person using the tool incorrectly.  This is for another thread, but politics becomes really simple and straight forward if you hold people accountable.  The religion isn't the problem.  How it's used is the problem. Why people focus on the tool over the individual has always escaped me.
Click to expand...
if I'm reading you right and the tool is the big church spending millions on a new cathedral, sound system and band vs helping out the needy in the community ..... yeah, the tool is the problem because its not leading people to Christ in fact, its doing the very opposite and I just call it what it is

side note - I've been to 1 church I felt comfortable .... in Chesterfield MO ..... 1/2 the congregation was Columbia and spoke poor English if any. I bet that surprises the heck out of ya'll don't it ? It felt like a right church to me

 
Stealthycat said:
if I'm reading you right and the tool is the big church spending millions on a new cathedral, sound system and band vs helping out the needy in the community ..... yeah, the tool is the problem because its not leading people to Christ in fact, its doing the very opposite and I just call it what it is

side note - I've been to 1 church I felt comfortable .... in Chesterfield MO ..... 1/2 the congregation was Columbia and spoke poor English if any. I bet that surprises the heck out of ya'll don't it ? It felt like a right church to me
Click to expand...
No....what you describe is still a misapplication of blessings by man.  These things you list are a result of misuse of the tool.  And I don't disagree that places like that are a problem.  Again....this is all for another thread though.

 
The Commish said:
For the same reason the GOP has turned their back on deficit/debt.  It was politically expedient.  They really aren't all that different when push comes to shove.  That's what's been elected into office :shrug:  
Click to expand...
The deficit/debt is disturbing for me and I wish they would make an effort to tackle it.  However,  it is difficult to reduce entitlements without backlash and the Dems added another with Affordable Care Act the last time they were in power.   Hopefully they can pass some entitlement reform this year.

 
Don't Noonan said:
The deficit/debt is disturbing for me and I wish they would make an effort to tackle it.  However,  it is difficult to reduce entitlements without backlash and the Dems added another with Affordable Care Act the last time they were in power.   Hopefully they can pass some entitlement reform this year.
Click to expand...
It's not difficult to do anything when you're capable and have control all three areas you need to control.  Also, not to make yet another "water is wet" sort of comment, there are plenty of things not "entitlements" that can be cut if they are genuinely interested, but we both know they aren't.  There is no genuine concern around the debt or deficits anymore.  That should be clear at this point.  And the bold shouldn't be the standard.  Most of the time the right thing isn't the easy thing.

ETA:  Of course all of this is exacerbated by the woefully short sighted tax cut bill that was passed on partisan lines.  Cutting a little bit here and there is much easier than looking for big chunks which is exactly what this tax bill left them doing....looking for big chunks, but I seem to remember you were a champion of these cuts.  All these collective actions have to have you pissed when you compare what you were promises and what's actually been delivered.

 
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Now that the budget deal has been completed, the debate on DACA begins in the Senate. What happens next in anybody's guess, but I suspect that the answer is...nothing. I can't see any DACA bill ever being voted on by the current House of Representatives.

 
timschochet said:
Now that the budget deal has been completed, the debate on DACA begins in the Senate. What happens next in anybody's guess, but I suspect that the answer is...nothing. I can't see any DACA bill ever being voted on by the current House of Representatives.
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If true, you'll get what you want in 2018 and 2020.  You should be happy Tim.  I was sort of shocked at Ryan's comments last night.  Seems like a major commitment from the House relatively speaking.  This is going as it should have the first time.  Result might not be what you want in the short term, but in the long game it's the best anyone could expect.

 
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The Commish said:
If true, you'll get what you want in 2018 and 2020.  You should be happy Tim.  I was sort of shocked at Ryan's comments last night.  Seems like a major commitment from the House relatively speaking.
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I do want to see a repudiation of Trumpism, Commish. But this doesn't make me happy. After March 5, some of these DACA recipients will be deported- even some of them who served in our armed forces. It's absolutely disgusting, shameful, and makes my blood boil.

 
timschochet said:
The Commish said:
If true, you'll get what you want in 2018 and 2020.  You should be happy Tim.  I was sort of shocked at Ryan's comments last night.  Seems like a major commitment from the House relatively speaking.
Click to expand...
I do want to see a repudiation of Trumpism, Commish. But this doesn't make me happy. After March 5, some of these DACA recipients will be deported- even some of them who served in our armed forces. It's absolutely disgusting, shameful, and makes my blood boil.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree, but the vileness of these groups of people has to be brought to light and acknowledged before real change can happen.  This is the crappy part, but it's necessary unfortunately.

 
Don't Noonan said:
The deficit/debt is disturbing for me and I wish they would make an effort to tackle it.  However,  it is difficult to reduce entitlements without backlash and the Dems added another with Affordable Care Act the last time they were in power.   Hopefully they can pass some entitlement reform this year.
Click to expand...
Now we're talking. I mean, the least they could do is shore up Social Security and Medicare for all of us who have been paying in all of our lives, now that we have all this instability in the markets again where us good peons are supposed to have our retirement money. 

 
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Grace Under Pressure said:
Now we're talking. I mean, the least they could do is shore up Social Security and Medicare for all of us who have been paying in all of our lives, now that we have all this instability in the markets again where us good peons are supposed to have our retirement money. 
Click to expand...
SSDI should be first.

 
Henry Ford said:
Should be first what?
Click to expand...
Should be the first entitlement program to be addressed.  It's YoY rate of growth is high (though it seems to have paused during this bull market, which means many enter it for purely economic reasons).  And lots and lots of people are on it - 1 out of 19 or so.  That's a ton of people.

 
Sand said:
Should be the first entitlement program to be addressed.  It's YoY rate of growth is high (though it seems to have paused during this bull market, which means many enter it for purely economic reasons).  And lots and lots of people are on it - 1 out of 19 or so.  That's a ton of people.
Click to expand...
Yeah, now that corporations have their tax cuts we should start cutting off benefits for disabled people.  Great call. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Yeah, now that corporations have their tax cuts we should start cutting off benefits for disabled people.  Great call. 
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We should give lots and lots of money to corporations so they can do things which give everyone else money. That's the goal. And we don't do the scorned, awful, and depraved thing of giving people money. Especially when it's in a directed way gauged by need and sympathy.

 
The Commish said:
Not sure it's all that helpful to be opposed to the tool.  You should be opposed to the person using the tool incorrectly.  This is for another thread, but politics becomes really simple and straight forward if you hold people accountable.  The religion isn't the problem.  How it's used is the problem. Why people focus on the tool over the individual has always escaped me.
Click to expand...
Agree 100%.  I'm sure this is the exact thinking that you apply to guns.  Right?  

 
unckeyherb said:
Agree 100%.  I'm sure this is the exact thinking that you apply to guns.  Right?  
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I guess?  Hope you weren't thinking this was some huge "gotcha" sort of moment.  I'm not really a big gun zealot though I do believe the Constitution has been woefully misinterpreted.  That's a different thread....not even sure why you're bringing up guns :shrug:  

 
timschochet said:
Its so infuriating. I simply don't understand how people can be opposed to DACA.
Click to expand...
Because there are people in this world so lacking in self awareness that they believe everything they've done is because of them and them alone it affords them the position "If I had to do it, so do you".  

 
The Commish said:
Because there are people in this world so lacking in self awareness that they believe everything they've done is because of them and them alone it affords them the position "If I had to do it, so do you".  
Click to expand...
Except that I’m guessing most of the people opposed to DACA have had no personal experience with regard to immigration issues.

 
timschochet said:
Except that I’m guessing most of the people opposed to DACA have had no personal experience with regard to immigration issues.
Click to expand...
Oh, this is absolutely true.  They will rely on anecdotal events where "bad" things happen, then use a broad brush to paint the entire situation to their liking.  And even if they do have personal experiences that are "bad" they will refuse to acknowledge that those experiences are also anecdotal and not really applicable to the large groups of people they want them to apply to.  There is a huge drought of empathy in this country today.  That's not even a question and instead of working on that, people do what they must to stay in their little bubbles.

 
Democrats need to swallow their reservations and get behind the bipartisan deal. Force Trump to veto it, putting him and the hardline Republicans in the position of extremists opposed to a compromise. 

 
timschochet said:
A bipartisan deal has been reached on DACA, but it’s already on life support: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/02/14/immigration-deal-senate-409201
Click to expand...
Yea. Here is where I think the Dems need to "cave". Forget about the freaking diversity lottery and family unification stuff and focus back on the midterms and 2020 where they can right the ship. I understand being ideological, but there is an imminent crisis with 800K people who are already here that are going to lose their legal work and education permits like now. 

 
timschochet said:
Democrats need to swallow their reservations and get behind the bipartisan deal. Force Trump to veto it, putting him and the hardline Republicans in the position of extremists opposed to a compromise. 
Click to expand...
The House isn’t going to pass anything Trump would veto.  I doubt they even take it up.

 
United We Dream (#DreamActNow: 478-488-8059)‏Verified account @UNITEDWEDREAM

On March 5, immigrant young people, our families and our allies will return to Capitol Hill to remind Congress that our lives our still in limbo. We’ve arrived at Trump’s deadline, and Congress has yet to do their job and pass a simple, and narrow legislative solution. - @Grei_sa

JOIN us on March 5 in DC to tell Congress: Enough political games, protect immigrant youth now! https://www.facebook.com/events/405219576614863/ …

https://twitter.com/UNITEDWEDREAM/status/968160440470724608

 
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