The Keeper League Thread (1 Viewer)

Since I did not see a thread for it - the thread for limited keeper leagues. Not as hardcore as dynasty, while not redraft either. There must be a million variants on rules, but typically it feels like for auction the price of a player goes up x% or a flat $ amount, while for snake drafts you either can keep a player for x years at the draft round, or lose a round per year you keep them. 

I got tired of trying to piece together value for keepers between redraft and dynasty, so I made this thread. My BML is a keeper league where we can keep players for 3 years at the round we drafted them in, and they must be different positions. Had a 3 year reign of terror with Bell at round 7 and Gronk at 4, but have been rebuilding the last 2 years. Last year I had low expectations because my keepers were awful and everyone else had some great value, but then the only thing that prevented me from getting first place were two first quarter injuries in the finals. Looking forward for this year because as of now it feels like I have 3 valuable keepers who I can have for the next 2 years. 

So to start off some discussion, what type of trade value does Fitzgerald have as a 7th round keeper in a super flex + regular flex standard scoring league? I probably cannot keep him, but he was WR #4 even with garbage throwing to him and Arizona should be in the running for someone like Cousins. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/forum/46-the-assistant-coach/

I meant it more to be for general discussion, but I guess generally everything could be done there.

Hankmoody said:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/forum/46-the-assistant-coach/

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Hank, usually I appreciate your efforts to keep the Shark Pool clear of asst. coach clutter.  It is much needed.

In this case though, I think there is room for a thread like this.  We have a "dynasty value discussion" thread where folks can throw out names and get rook or startup value estimates.  It strays close to AC territory at times, but it is a focused discussion in one thread that has become one of the better ones on the board.

We have had redraft variants near draft season as well, but the OP has a point that keeper leagues come with their own unique issues, not the least is the wide range of keeper rules.  A place to discuss how keeper rules affect valuations seems ideally suited to the Shark Pool and one worth reading for me.  And if discussion starters serve double duty because they come with league specific issues attached, that doesnt invalidate the value of strategic discussion on how those rules affect player values.

For instance, @huthut's query about Fitz...he is nearly valueless in a full dynasty.  He is a solid volume WR with a likely midround grade in redraft.  How far down the redraft-to-dynasty continuum do we have to go before this value switches is something I'd enjoy seeing opinion on, and is more a SP than an AC topic, imo.

Arodin said:

Hank, usually I appreciate your efforts to keep the Shark Pool clear of asst. coach clutter.  It is much needed.

In this case though, I think there is room for a thread like this.  We have a "dynasty value discussion" thread where folks can throw out names and get rook or startup value estimates.  It strays close to AC territory at times, but it is a focused discussion in one thread that has become one of the better ones on the board.

We have had redraft variants near draft season as well, but the OP has a point that keeper leagues come with their own unique issues, not the least is the wide range of keeper rules.  A place to discuss how keeper rules affect valuations seems ideally suited to the Shark Pool and one worth reading for me.  And if discussion starters serve double duty because they come with league specific issues attached, that doesnt invalidate the value of strategic discussion on how those rules affect player values.

For instance, @huthut's query about Fitz...he is nearly valueless in a full dynasty.  He is a solid volume WR with a likely midround grade in redraft.  How far down the redraft-to-dynasty continuum do we have to go before this value switches is something I'd enjoy seeing opinion on, and is more a SP than an AC topic, imo.

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Sure, right up until the "discussion" was targeted to a player on his roster, asking the trade value, and giving his league paramaters so specific that maybe a dozen people here play in.  That's an AC post in all forms.

The hard part about a Keeper Value is going to be just that - that there are so many permutations that are common that it's going to be near impossible to get any real commonality amongst posters.  "Dynasty" leagues may all differ too, but the core of them is you are keeping "all" of your players "for a real long time" so the differences from league to league are going to be pretty small.  Keeper leauges will have a ton of variability - Fitzgerald is worth a ton in a keep 10 league but not so much in a keep 4 where they cost you your original round draft picks, for example.

Yeah!  Keep this crap in the Assistant Coach forum!  The SP needs room for a 46th _____'s Dynasty Rankings thread.

huthut said:

 So to start off some discussion, what type of trade value does Fitzgerald have as a 7th round keeper in a super flex + regular flex standard scoring league? I probably cannot keep him, but he was WR #4 even with garbage throwing to him and Arizona should be in the running for someone like Cousins. 

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Not a lot, to me anyways.

His performance last year was his best in a long time, and coincided with the cardinals losing the running back that their entire offense flowed through. He's changing qb and coach so even though he had garbage throwing to him, he did drop off once Palmer went on ir, and now he won't have Arians scheming him open. 

He's also worthless as a 2019 keeper, so anyone keeping him this year is punting the position.  Keeping him for a 7th is slightly better than not keeping anyone, but keeping a guy like John Ross in the 15th gives you some value in that Ross might be a big value in 2019 and 2020 if he pans out. The only upside to keeping Fitzgerald is that he has another good year this year. 

That said, his value to a team without any keepers whatsoever is somewhat less than what it would cost to draft him. In superflex he's probably a 5th or 6th round redraft pick.(he just went 46th in a redraft ppr start 1 qb league here, so adjust for non ppr and super flex and he drops a round or two). Keeping him for a 7th is better than drafting him in the 5th, but I wouldn't offer my 5th for your 7th for the right to keep him in the 7th, because that's no value at all. He's more likely worth a 6th for a 7th, if someone is high on him. That could also be a drop from 5.2 to 5.8, or 4.2 to 4.5, or 3.2 to 3.3. 

But it's hard to get that, because the trade market will have lots of motivated sellers close to the keeper declaration deadline, and any experienced owner should know that Fitzgerald will still be available a month or two from now.  

Really a very tough sell. Take what you can get, I guess. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/764164-keeper-leagues-lose-round-player-drafted/

I started the linked thread a bit ago and we got some decent discussion. There's a formula that I've been working on to determine value:
Value = (Player Traded) - (Pick Compensation Given) - (Value of Player Not Kept Due To Acquisition) + (Draft Pick Gained From Player Not Kept).

I also play in this format and it's fun trying to figure out what's actually value.

Gawain said:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/764164-keeper-leagues-lose-round-player-drafted/

I started the linked thread a bit ago and we got some decent discussion. There's a formula that I've been working on to determine value:
Value = (Player Traded) - (Pick Compensation Given) - (Value of Player Not Kept Due To Acquisition) + (Draft Pick Gained From Player Not Kept).

I also play in this format and it's fun trying to figure out what's actually value.

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You're missing the opportunity cost of other trades, and the potential value in multi year keeper deals, but otherwise that's a good start. 

Also format.

I think Fitzgerald is more valuable than John Ross in redraft.  In dynasty I'll take Ross. In keep 3 forever with no price, I'll lean Ross. In keep 3 for 3 years with no price, I'll take the best player I can get every time and worry about next year later. In keep 3 for 3 years at their original draft price I would take Ross at a 15th over fitz at a 7th, because two years of Ross at a 15th could end up being a massive bargain even though it's nothing special right now. 

It's not one size fits all. 

What would it take for you to move off of the #1 pick (Barkley) in a keeper league in terms of draft picks? Let's assume it's a 2 player keeper league with no keeper restrictions and the top 24 players are being kept. What would it take for you to move down from 1.1 to say the fourth or fifth pick? 1.1 for 1.5 + how much else? Looking at fantasyfootballcalculator you'd have guys like Ingram, Mixon, Hyde, Henry, all rookies available at RB;  Adams, Cooks, Theilen at WR plus all QB's and TE's available outside of Rodgers and Gronk.

Lionsfan011 said:

What would it take for you to move off of the #1 pick (Barkley) in a keeper league in terms of draft picks? Let's assume it's a 2 player keeper league with no keeper restrictions and the top 24 players are being kept. What would it take for you to move down from 1.1 to say the fourth or fifth pick? 1.1 for 1.5 + how much else? Looking at fantasyfootballcalculator you'd have guys like Ingram, Mixon, Hyde, Henry, all rookies available at RB;  Adams, Cooks, Theilen at WR plus all QB's and TE's available outside of Rodgers and Gronk.

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I look at Barkley this way: If there was a startup draft or auction, Barkley would be in the top 12 overall players taken. If, as was suggested, none of the top 24 players were available and the available player pool is also as stated, I'd need Henry and Mixon, plus 1.5 to move Barkley. 

The above presumes I have 1.01 because my team is poor. Thus, if I'm even considering moving the pick, I can speed up my rebuild process 

My league is converting to a keeper league this upcoming season. I've been reading through this thread and this thread before I send out the email blast to my league of "Official Keeper League Settings," but would appreciate any insight from managers currently involved in keeper leagues of the settings you love/hate, or pitfalls, or any other advice you may have that could help the transition for my league.

I know this is dangerously close to Assistant Coach material, but I'd love to hear about what settings you feel helped make your keeper league a more positive experience.

Currently, the expected keeper-specific settings for our league are as follows:

• 1 Keeper
  
• The keeper will cost you the round they were drafted minus one round (4th round pick will cost you a 3rd round pick to keep for next year)
  
• Currently, I'm leaning towards allowing keepers for only one season (after you choose to keep them one year, they have to return to the player pool in the next year).
  
• Traded players keep their draft value when determining keeper round status.
  
• UDFAs will cost the manager a 9th round pick (for reference, we have a 15 round draft, starting line up consists of 1 QB, 2 WR, 2 RBs, 1 TE, 1 WR/RB/TE, 1 Kicker, 1 Team Defense, with 5 Bench Spots and an IR spot).
  

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Moonshine said:

My league is converting to a keeper league this upcoming season. I've been reading through this thread and this thread before I send out the email blast to my league of "Official Keeper League Settings," but would appreciate any insight from managers currently involved in keeper leagues of the settings you love/hate, or pitfalls, or any other advice you may have that could help the transition for my league.

I know this is dangerously close to Assistant Coach material, but I'd love to hear about what settings you feel helped make your keeper league a more positive experience.

Currently, the expected keeper-specific settings for our league are as follows:

• 1 Keeper
  
• The keeper will cost you the round they were drafted minus one round (4th round pick will cost you a 3rd round pick to keep for next year)
  
• Currently, I'm leaning towards allowing keepers for only one season (after you choose to keep them one year, they have to return to the player pool in the next year).
  
• Traded players keep their draft value when determining keeper round status.
  
• UDFAs will cost the manager a 9th round pick (for reference, we have a 15 round draft, starting line up consists of 1 QB, 2 WR, 2 RBs, 1 TE, 1 WR/RB/TE, 1 Kicker, 1 Team Defense, with 5 Bench Spots and an IR spot).
  

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

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When my league went from draft to keeper, we made a few changes:

1. Move from draft to auction. If you are going to allow for keepers, equal opportunity to land the top players is paramount. We use $160 for 16 spots in a ten team league. Auctions are run in $1 increments.

2. Allow up to 25% of an owners total roster to be kept. Add a surcharge for each player kept. For example, if Zeke costs $40 in 2018, he would cost $45 in 2019 and $50 in 2020. We use a keep 4 system of our 16 players. Allows owners to build a core group but also ensures plenty of talent is available at auction.

3. Create a bid system for UDFAs. $50 for season is reasonable. 

Ack88 said:

When my league went from draft to keeper, we made a few changes:

1. Move from draft to auction. If you are going to allow for keepers, equal opportunity to land the top players is paramount. We use $160 for 16 spots in a ten team league. Auctions are run in $1 increments.

2. Allow up to 25% of an owners total roster to be kept. Add a surcharge for each player kept. For example, if Zeke costs $40 in 2018, he would cost $45 in 2019 and $50 in 2020. We use a keep 4 system of our 16 players. Allows owners to build a core group but also ensures plenty of talent is available at auction.

3. Create a bid system for UDFAs. $50 for season is reasonable. 

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Good notes. We're actually moving to a FAAB system (from a rolling list waiver) this year as well, which should add some additional levels of complexity as well. I'll dive more into auction based drafting, although everything I've heard about it thus far has been pretty positive.

Moonshine said:

Good notes. We're actually moving to a FAAB system (from a rolling list waiver) this year as well, which should add some additional levels of complexity as well. I'll dive more into auction based drafting, although everything I've heard about it thus far has been pretty positive.

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We moved to auction about 12 years ago and every owner loves it. Auction style drafting creates a level playing field and really creates an optimal situation for everyone. While I don't have the data handy, many people have explored the value of a pick at the top of the first round in a draft vs. a big towards to bottom. Simply put, value at the top cannot be regained later. If, however, in an auction style format an owner goes too high for any one player than the rest of their squad suffers greatly. 

Good luck to you!