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Sheriff Bart

Pipe bombs sent to Clinton, Obama & CNN. Days later a mass murder at a synagogue. Trump takes the opportunity to repeat the lie "the media is the true enemy of the people."

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4 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I think we can draw reasonable inferences based on the targets and discuss those inferences. It doesn't mean the inferences are true, but it would be absurd to demand that we stay silent about them.

I don't think we can draw reasonable inferences about "the left" or "the right" based on the targets. We can draw inferences, but I don't see how they can be reasonable if we're extrapolating from a sample of, possibly, a single person who is doing the targeting.

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3 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Way to hit that uncontested layup there, Donald.

To be fair, he has messed up much easier statements.

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2 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

There you go again.  This is way out of line. 

BTW, the President's recent tweets lead me to believe this is real now.  I'm now leaning towards this being a real, and awful act by somebody.  Because I'm not in favor of squashing one point of view that differs of mine, it allowed me the opportunity to see other opinions and facts and alter my opinion.  

But you are which is clearly exhibit in the first sentence of you post, calling it 'out of line'

Edited by Epic Problem

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Just now, Da Guru said:

This is what I don`t get from any type of attack or bombing.

Say that the Clintons, Obama, Shultz were all killed or maimed..then what?  What does that accomplish for anyone? If a person from the right did this how does this advance their cause? Muslims still can`t get over 9-11 stigma.

Whoever did this is a deranged person..same as the people who shoot up malls, schools and movie theatres. 

Spitballing...  I have a feeling if you were able to get the perpetrator into a sit down, and asked straightforward logical questions, you may not get entirely straightforward logical answers.  You’re apt to hear a lot of raving about false flags and the lovely left.

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1 minute ago, TobiasFunke said:

I think we can draw reasonable inferences based on the targets and discuss those inferences. It doesn't mean the inferences are true, but it would be absurd to demand that we stay silent about them.

Yet you and I have both condemned it when, right after there is a terrorist attack, conservatives immediately show up and attack the entire religion of Islam.  And conservatives hate it when, right after there is a mass shooting, there are immediate fingers pointed at lawful gun owners, and calls for gun control which, if we are to be honest, would usually have had no effect in stopping the shooting in question even if they had been enacted beforehand. And many of us are outraged, rightfully, when President Trump points to a murder committed by an undocumented immigrant and uses it to describe all undocumented immigrants.

In each of these instances, people are reacting, not to a statistical problem, but to a single incident we can point to and claim that it's representative.  It seems to me that there isn't much difference here. 

 

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

CNN Breaking News‏Verified account @cnnbrk

FollowingFollowing @cnnbrk

More

The building that houses the San Diego Union-Tribune and Senator Kamala Harris' field office has been evacuated as police investigate a suspicious package https://cnn.it/2q8qUcv

So if this one's confirmed, that would be bombs in at least 3 states.  Safe to say this is a coordinated effort and not a "lone wolf"?

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1 hour ago, ClownCausedChaos2 said:

Give it 48 hours.  If history has taught us anything, it's that Trump's staff can only keep him from expressing his true feelings for so long.

More specifically, Trump will say at his next rally that anyone who sends a bomb to the Clintons is his "kind of guy."

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NBC News reports:

The devices, which appear to be working explosives, were in manilla packages that included stamps and signatures on them with a return address belonging to Debbie Wasserman Schultz, according to three senior law enforcement officials.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspicious-package-found-near-new-york-home-bill-hillary-clinton-n923816

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3 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

This is what I don`t get from any type of attack or bombing.

Say that the Clintons, Obama, Shultz were all killed or maimed..then what?  What does that accomplish for anyone? If a person from the right did this how does this advance their cause? Muslims still can`t get over 9-11 stigma.

Whoever did this is a deranged person..same as the people who fly planes into buildings, shoot up malls, schools and movie theatres. 

Not very bright either.  Who would think President Obama would be opening packages himself?  The over/under on how long to catch this guy can't be very long.

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1 minute ago, Epic Problem said:

But you are which is clearly exhibit in the first sentence of you post, calling it 'out of line'

He believes it now because of the presidents recent tweets. :mellow: 

This country is so far gone.

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1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

So if this one's confirmed, that would be bombs in at least 3 states.  Safe to say this is a coordinated effort and not a "lone wolf"?

I think it really depends on how these packages got there.

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1 minute ago, Shula-holic said:

Not very bright either.  Who would think President Obama would be opening packages himself?  The over/under on how long to catch this guy can't be very long.

I doubt Obama or any ex POTUS goes anywhere near his mail.

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5 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

 

BTW, the President's recent tweets lead me to believe this is real now.    

This to me is more problematic than anything else you’ve written in this thread so far. 

You don’t believe the news reports; it could be “fake news”. But when the President says it, now you believe it. 

How many people are there out there like you? Far too many, I fear. 

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3 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

So if this one's confirmed, that would be bombs in at least 3 states.  Safe to say this is a coordinated effort and not a "lone wolf"?

I've read only what's been posted in this thread. Based on that, it seems like the packages were sent through the mail. A lone person can mail stuff to three states. (So can a coordinated group of people. I don't think we can rule either possibility out based on what I've seen.)

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FWIW...buddy in the Sec Service sent me two texts:

"usual suspects"

"they are who we think they are"

He is so ready for that desk job, he's counting down the minutes :lol: 

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Just now, parasaurolophus said:

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. 

I am drawing some conclusions, but they seem somewhat unlike you, so I guess if you could clarify I would appreciate. 

I think it's very likely that the person who did this was motivated by the rhetoric and tone from conservatives and conservative media with respect to each of the targets.  I don't mean the normal "they're the worst!" stuff, I mean the conspiracy theories, the to my knowledge unprecedented encouraging of anger and violence towards the media and the "lock her up!" chants and all the rest.  I can't be sure that's the case, but it seems likely enough to warrant discussion of the culpability of the people who have been inciting this anger and violence and dehumanization towards Soros/Clintons/Obama/Brennan/CNN.

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3 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I don't think we can draw reasonable inferences about "the left" or "the right" based on the targets. We can draw inferences, but I don't see how they can be reasonable if we're extrapolating from a sample of, possibly, a single person who is doing the targeting.

Can we infer cause and effect?   Look a couple of posts up, at a poster who had claimed this was probably a false flag.  He now admits it’s “probably real.”  What led to the change?  The President’s tweet.  So the President, by merely writing a few words, radically changed the way that poster sees the world from radical to reasonable.  Can we infer that this also works the other way around?  And if we can and explore where the radical ideas are being propagated in places of high influence, might that lead us into a legitimate left/right discussion?

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2 minutes ago, squistion said:

NBC News reports:

The devices, which appear to be working explosives, were in manilla packages that included stamps and signatures on them with a return address belonging to Debbie Wasserman Schultz, according to three senior law enforcement officials.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspicious-package-found-near-new-york-home-bill-hillary-clinton-n923816

So whoever suggested that this was a false flag was technically correct? (Assuming DWS didn't actually send the packages.)

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9 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

There you go again.  This is way out of line. 

BTW, the President's recent tweets lead me to believe this is real now.  I'm now leaning towards this being a real, and awful act by somebody.  Because I'm not in favor of squashing one point of view that differs of mine, it allowed me the opportunity to see other opinions and facts and alter my opinion.  

W.T.F.

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Just now, Captain Cranks said:

I'm not having a back and forth with anyone and I'm not making a joke about a bomb, but thanks?

Well you do have a cool avatar, so you’ve got that going for you

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2 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I've read only what's been posted in this thread. Based on that, it seems like the packages were sent through the mail. A lone person can mail stuff to three states. (So can a coordinated group of people. I don't think we can rule either possibility out based on what I've seen.)

I asked further up, but it shocks me that this stuff can just flow through the USPS like that.

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6 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

So if this one's confirmed, that would be bombs in at least 3 states.  Safe to say this is a coordinated effort and not a "lone wolf"?

I have successfully mailed multiple packages in one day.  It’s tough, but it can be done.

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Just now, TobiasFunke said:

I think it's very likely that the person who did this was motivated by the rhetoric and tone from conservatives and conservative media with respect to each of the targets.  I don't mean the normal "they're the worst!" stuff, I mean the conspiracy theories, the to my knowledge unprecedented encouraging of anger and violence towards the media and the "lock her up!" chants and all the rest.  I can't be sure that's the case, but it seems likely enough to warrant discussion of the culpability of the people who have been inciting this anger and violence and dehumanization towards Soros/Clintons/Obama/Brennan/CNN.

Thank you. I thought you were saying this was some kind of coordinated political group effort. And was like huh that doesnt sound like tobias? These things are almost always a single person and figured you would know that.

So when you were referencing a  "random nutjob" you actually meant nutjob that happened to randomly select multiple democrat targets like he just flipped heads 4 times in a row. 

Happy I asked. 

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9 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

There you go again.  This is way out of line. 

BTW, the President's recent tweets lead me to believe this is real now.  I'm now leaning towards this being a real, and awful act by somebody.  Because I'm not in favor of squashing one point of view that differs of mine, it allowed me the opportunity to see other opinions and facts and alter my opinion.  

As I stated in response to Maurile, you unwittingly prove my point.  A few words from the President, absent any other information, changed your perception from a radical opinion to reasonable.  It stands to reason that this might works the other way for people disposed to be so influenced by leadership.  Said otherwise, toxic words may influence perceptions.  Perceptions might influence actions.  The President has a history of toxic words.

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yet you and I have both condemned it when, right after there is a terrorist attack, conservatives immediately show up and attack the entire religion of Islam.  And conservatives hate it when, right after there is a mass shooting, there are immediate fingers pointed at lawful gun owners, and calls for gun control which, if we are to be honest, would usually have had no effect in stopping the shooting in question even if they had been enacted beforehand. And many of us are outraged, rightfully, when President Trump points to a murder committed by an undocumented immigrant and uses it to describe all undocumented immigrants.

In each of these instances, people are reacting, not to a statistical problem, but to a single incident we can point to and claim that it's representative.  It seems to me that there isn't much difference here. 

 

If there was a "President" of Islam and a centralized news network that represented mainstream Islam and was the trusted news source for the majority of Muslims, and they behaved the way Trump and Fox News do towards the targets of Islamic extremist attacks, I would 100% call them out.

I'm not saying this lunatic bomber is representative of conservatives. I'm not even sure the person who did this is an angry conservative motivated by Trump and Fox News. But it's a reasonable discussion to have.

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Hillary Clinton in Florida:

"We are fine thanks to the men and women of the Secret Service ... Every day, we are grateful for their service and committment. And obviously, never more than today. But it is a troubling time, isn't it?"

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Thank you. I thought you were saying this was some kind of coordinated political group effort. And was like huh that doesnt sound like tobias? These things are almost always a single person and figured you would know that.

So when you were referencing a  "random nutjob" you actually meant nutjob that happened to randomly select multiple democrat targets like he just flipped heads 4 times in a row. 

Happy I asked. 

Dear God no.  This sounds like a lone nutcase.

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Eric Holder was the original recipient of the package at Debbie Wasserman Shultz office. They had the wrong address and was returned to her address,

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11 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I think it's very likely that the person who did this was motivated by the rhetoric and tone from conservatives and conservative media with respect to each of the targets.  I don't mean the normal "they're the worst!" stuff, I mean the conspiracy theories, the to my knowledge unprecedented encouraging of anger and violence towards the media and the "lock her up!" chants and all the rest.  I can't be sure that's the case, but it seems likely enough to warrant discussion of the culpability of the people who have been inciting this anger and violence and dehumanization towards Soros/Clintons/Obama/Brennan/CNN.

For the sake of clarity, I'll point out that this post is not an example of the sniping I complained about earlier. I disagree with Tobias about whether Fox News et al. are responsible for the actions of a deranged nutcase criminal terrorist (or a small group of them). But it's a discussion worth having as long as, like the post I'm quoting, it's grounded in reason and devoid of personal insults or wild generalizations.

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So the question becomes, is it reasonable to blame Trump for what's happened here? A little? A lot? How responsible is he?

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this. I find Trump's rhetoric, especially in recent days, to be hateful and despicable.  Yet I don't know how much we as a society should hold him or any politician responsible for the acts of a crazed individual. I've never been able to solve this in my own mind.

But I certainly think it's worthy of discussion. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

So the question becomes, is it reasonable to blame Trump for what's happened here? A little? A lot? How responsible is he?

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this. I find Trump's rhetoric, especially in recent days, to be hateful and despicable.  Yet I don't know how much we as a society should hold him or any politician responsible for the acts of a crazed individual. I've never been able to solve this in my own mind.

But I certainly think it's worthy of discussion. 

It's reasonable to blame the person that sent the bombs

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3 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

If there was a "President" of Islam and a centralized news network that represented mainstream Islam and was the trusted news source for the majority of Muslims, and they behaved the way Trump and Fox News do towards the targets of Islamic extremist attacks, I would 100% call them out.

I'm not saying this lunatic bomber is representative of conservatives. I'm not even sure the person who did this is an angry conservative motivated by Trump and Fox News. But it's a reasonable discussion to have.

Yes it is. I don't know if it's possible to do without offending people. Guess we will find out. 

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14 minutes ago, Captain Cranks said:

More specifically, Trump will say at his next rally that anyone who sends a bomb to the Clintons is his "kind of guy."

Nope. Be way cooler if you come back.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So the question becomes, is it reasonable to blame Trump for what's happened here? A little? A lot? How responsible is he?

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this. I find Trump's rhetoric, especially in recent days, to be hateful and despicable.  Yet I don't know how much we as a society should hold him or any politician responsible for the acts of a crazed individual. I've never been able to solve this in my own mind.

But I certainly think it's worthy of discussion. 

Trump is the latest and most blatant version of what the GOP and FOX news/talk radio have been pushing for decades. They've been planting seeds that are finally bearing fruit. And they're continuing to fan the flames. Even the site owner @David Dodds should shoulder responsibility for pushing pizzagate stuff, which is effectively a training wheels version of this. 

Eta this is a discussion worth having but I'm not sure this thread is the place. 

Edited by Hilts
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2 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

It's reasonable to blame the person that sent the bombs

This...there's plenty to dump on Trump.  This is pretty low down the list and feels like just piling on.

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10 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

So whoever suggested that this was a false flag was technically correct? (Assuming DWS didn't actually send the packages.)

She is not very smart sending packages with her name on them.  And she would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So the question becomes, is it reasonable to blame Trump for what's happened here? A little? A lot? How responsible is he?

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this. I find Trump's rhetoric, especially in recent days, to be hateful and despicable.  Yet I don't know how much we as a society should hold him or any politician responsible for the acts of a crazed individual. I've never been able to solve this in my own mind.

But I certainly think it's worthy of discussion. 

Trump is absolutely responsible.  No politician that I can think of has advocated violence as openly as he has, and no other politician (besides Ted Cruz) has called for his political opponents to be jailed.  That sort of rhetoric is very clearly on the wrong side of a bright line.

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17 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

So if this one's confirmed, that would be bombs in at least 3 states.  Safe to say this is a coordinated effort and not a "lone wolf"?

With guaranteed delivery of Express Mail......one person could do this. 

For it's cost...there's not a better way than United Postal Service Express Mail to send something important that needs to get there in a timely fashion.

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Just now, Thunderlips said:

With guaranteed delivery of Express Mail......one person could do this. 

For it's cost...there's not a better way than United Postal Service Express Mail to send something important that needs to get there in a timely fashion.

Yeah I forgot the packages went through the mail.  Four people have now pointed that out.  But thanks.

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Just now, Hilts said:

Trump is the latest and most blatant version of what the GOP and FOX news/talk radio have been pushing for decades. They've been planting seeds that are finally bearing fruit. And they're continuing to fan the flames. Even the site owner @David Dodds should shoulder responsibility for pushing pizzagate stuff, which is effectively a training wheels version of this. 

David Dodds was one of several million Americans (yes, several million) who believed that Pizzagate was real.  It was a completely irrational belief. But all David Dodds did is state his belief here in a website read by a few thousand people. Is Dodds truly responsible for some crazy going to the pizza store and shooting it up? I really have trouble with that concept. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So the question becomes, is it reasonable to blame Trump for what's happened here? A little? A lot? How responsible is he?

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this. I find Trump's rhetoric, especially in recent days, to be hateful and despicable.  Yet I don't know how much we as a society should hold him or any politician responsible for the acts of a crazed individual. I've never been able to solve this in my own mind.

But I certainly think it's worthy of discussion. 

If we assume this was the work of an American conservative or a fan of Trump from abroad, the question is: would this sort of thing be happening if Trump hadn't done the many IMO irresponsible things he's done to foment anger towards the targets? 

I think this is different from other instances of violence or attempted violence against public officials or the media where you couldn't point to particular rhetoric and hypothesize about cause and effect (Giffords and Scalise, to name one from each side of the aisle)  Many of the things Trump says and does are criticized when he says and does them, for exactly this reason. And yet he continues to say and do them.

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

This...there's plenty to dump on Trump.  This is pretty low down the list and feels like just piling on.

I agree the person who did this deserves the overwhelming majority of blame. But people fueling an explosive situation don't get off scot free. You don't get to douse a place in gasoline and leave behind a pack of matches and act surprised and totally innocent when something happens. 

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:
6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So the question becomes, is it reasonable to blame Trump for what's happened here? A little? A lot? How responsible is he?

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this. I find Trump's rhetoric, especially in recent days, to be hateful and despicable.  Yet I don't know how much we as a society should hold him or any politician responsible for the acts of a crazed individual. I've never been able to solve this in my own mind.

But I certainly think it's worthy of discussion. 

Trump is absolutely responsible.  No politician that I can think of has advocated violence as openly as he has, and no other politician (besides Ted Cruz) has called for his political opponents to be jailed.  That sort of rhetoric is very clearly on the wrong side of a bright line.

I think this quote encapsulates this:

"Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, and if she gets to pick --if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day, if -- if -- Hillary gets to put her judges in."

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

David Dodds was one of several million Americans (yes, several million) who believed that Pizzagate was real.  It was a completely irrational belief. But all David Dodds did is state his belief here in a website read by a few thousand people. Is Dodds truly responsible for some crazy going to the pizza store and shooting it up? I really have trouble with that concept. 

Yes, each of those people deserve some blame. A very small amount, but some blame nonetheless. Pushing dangerous beliefs can have consequences. 

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