Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Check out the echo chamber thread. They aren't liberals or they claim not to be anyway.
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2020: The Race For the White House - The Good Place (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t think I misrepresent anyone. I listen to AOC and Warren and, as much as I like them in many areas, I hear a hostility to business and corporate America that is very troubling to me. I heard it from Bernie supporters in 2016 (less so from the man himself) and I’m hearing it now.
The old mantra of the Democratic Party used to be that corporations were naturally greedy because they were mainly interested in the bottom line; however they could also be sources for good if steered in the right direction and subject to certain reasonable restrictions. The new mantra seems to be that corporations are evil, the enemy of working people.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think that’s part of my point - I’ve never been called a liberal until Trump came along. There’s people that will call IK or Yankee a liberal if they vote for the Democratic candidate. I’m saying Trump and the Republican Party is making “liberals” out lots of people who never were before.
Skoo
Footballguy
Hillary didn't run a good campaign, but you can't blame 60 million people actually thinking Donald Trump is fit to be President entirely on her.
She was the incredibly obvious choice any way you slice it.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Yeah I agree with that. I don't see how Trump wins again but didn't really believe he could win until election night last time. I guess it will be depend on many of those you describe (in the swing states) vote for the Dem candidate or sit out the election.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Not to hijack, but why does this ###-clown have a job, much less a front-page-of-cnn-every-day kind of job? His "articles" read as though they were written by a junior high school kid, complete with lots of exclamation points! He is only worse when speaking.saintfool said:
She still received 3 million more votes than Trump. She lost by a combined 70,000 votes in PA, OH, and MI. That's why she lost. Yes, she did a bad job campaigning and should have made more appearances in those states, but a large portion of Bernie's bitter base staying home is why we have a dictator now. I hope that base learned something.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
unckeyherb
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
She also lost because the Democratic party has ignored the working class for the better part of two decades. As their standard of living has been on a steady decline. The Republican party had lost their way with this demographic as well, it's why and how Trump caught them completely off guard.
That's the elephant in the room that the Dems better figure out real fast...giving the right ammunition with pro immigration banter and self described forms of socialism rhetoric is a one way ticket to losing that all important demographic once again.
The Dems seriously don't get it or they are ignoring it. Either way, they will deserve to lose if its not addressed appropriately.
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-fish-
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Are you the guy I previously pointed out was ignoring basically everything the Democrats have done since 2016 including their successful messaging during the mid-term campaign? Or are you a new guy who is ignoring basically everything the Democrats have done since 2016 including their successful messaging during the mid-term campaign?
In my defense, it's hard to keep track of all the posters who ignore basically everything the Democrats have done since 2016 including their successful messaging during the mid-term campaign.
The Commish
Footballguy
Bingo....it's quite amazing. Never in a million years would I have thought a fiscal conservative/socially moderate individual be labeled "liberal". It's a matter of perspective. The problem is, the people running far to the right claim they are standing still which is odd, because they've run so far to the right we have nothing in common anymore. The government taking your land is ok now. What happened to the rule of law? I can't say that the GOP has ever been genuine in their claim of fiscal responsibility, but at least it was on the table allegedly. That's completely gone. But somehow, because I don't agree with the government taking land I'm a liberal. Because I think the President isn't above the law, I am liberal. Because I think our government should be protecting us in the global market, I am a liberal. It's baffling really.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Why are we concluding that the midterm Dem messaging was successful again? Last I checked, that Blue Wave never came despite the liberal media's hopes and dreams.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
-fish-
Footballguy
Although I like Bernie and think he does a great job of starting important conversations, I think a lot of the success and momentum he had in 2016 was a result of Democrats that didn't like Hillary. With her out of the picture and several other viable candidates sharing some of his core ideas, I don't think a 77-year old man that comes off kind of nutty is going to have what it takes to be the front-runner this time around.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
-fish-
Footballguy
then I think you're wrong. I don't think there is an accepted position that all republicans are tacitly racist.
The Commish
Footballguy
Sure...that sort of person is no better than their GOP counterpart. And I do appreciate the use of the word tacitly here as it allows for those broad brushes the
are so famous for. And it allows those who are complicit in their silence towards the actions of this administration a rock to hide behind to avoid the reality of their silence. Of course, the arguments here aren't even in that category. There is no way around the reality that those actively supporting this president, at MINIMUM, put racism down their list of things that are important to them. They may not be racist, but they tolerate racism to get something else they want. That's not the huge distinction some want it to be.TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Ah, I see where you're coming from now.
Apologies to the rest of the message board for taking this poster remotely seriously. Like I said it's hard to keep track.
TripItUp
Footballguy
That's an important distinction. Being racist and not prioritizing racial inequality are two very different things.Sure...that sort of person is no better than their GOP counterpart. And I do appreciate the use of the word tacitly here as it allows for those broad brushes the
TripItUp
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
This distinction is made here all the time yet people whine about being called racist when the later is what is actually said. Regardless, I don't see them as "very different" things. One is the person acting, the other is enabling the action. Either way, they are both complicit in the racism the racist is trying to spread and normalize
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TripItUp
Footballguy
Not taking action is enabling? Voting for or supporting racist ideas is enabling. Not prioritizing somebody else's priorities is not enabling.This distinction is made here all the time yet people whine about being called racist when the later is what is actually said. Regardless, I don't see them as "very different" things. One is the person acting, the other is enabling the action. Either way, they are both complicit in the racism the racist is trying to spread and normalize
I disagree with your premise.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Sorry, am I supposed to take you seriously after you suggested that the Dems were unsuccessful in an election in which they won 41 seats in the House, and had the largest midterm raw vote margin ever, and also won six senate races in states Trump won two years earlier without losing a single senate race in a Trump-won state? A sentiment which you topped off with the standard nonsense about the "liberal media's hopes and dreams" for a big Dem win? Nah. Your post got a far kinder response than it deserved.
The Commish
Footballguy
That's fine. When you know a racist is doing racist things and your response is "That racist stuff is on him. I'm still voting for him because I like his ideas on infrastructure", you're saying racism is a lower priority for me than infrastructure. You spin that however you want to justify it, but there's no changing that reality. I've said a million times here that there is no way in hell that I would ever knowingly vote for a racist even if he/she agreed with me 100% politically and wanted to do exactly the same things I wanted them to do. It won't happenNot taking action is enabling? Voting for or supporting racist ideas is enabling. Not prioritizing somebody else's priorities is not enabling.This distinction is made here all the time yet people whine about being called racist when the later is what is actually said. Regardless, I don't see them as "very different" things. One is the person acting, the other is enabling the action. Either way, they are both complicit in the racism the racist is trying to spread and normalize
I disagree with your premise.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I went to that thread, and I see pretty much exactly what I see here. People are saying that Trump is racist, which should not be controversial. Some even saying the party is racist, which IMO is a reasonable position given Trump's role as the party's unquestioned leader and his GOP subordinates' willingness to abandon its previous policy positions in service of the racist's policy preferences. But nobody is saying that "all republicans" are anything.
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caustic
Footballguy
In 2016, 4% of Bernie primary voters stayed home and 18% voted for a candidate other than Clinton. In total, 78% of Bernie’s primary voters supported her.
In 2008, 5% of Hillary primary voters stayed home and 25% voted for a candidate other than Obama. In total, 70% of Clinton’s primary voters supported him.
I think it’s easy to point fingers when an election is decided by 70k votes, but the sour grapes phenomenon is not unique to Bernie supporters nor was it historically large in 2016. Candidates have to win in spite of those defectors every single election.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
What if you aren't a racist and in fact voted for a black guy previously. And what if you don't believe the guy you are voting for is actually a racist? And what if instead of his ideas on infrastructure, you are concerned about your job. Or an economy that has left you behind? Or you realize that the middle class is going extinct? Regardless of whether pulling for this guy ACTUALLY worked out for you, you did so with the best intentions of *hopefully* seeing a brighter future.That's fine. When you know a racist is doing racist things and your response is "That racist stuff is on him. I'm still voting for him because I like his ideas on infrastructure", you're saying racism is a lower priority for me than infrastructure. You spin that however you want to justify it, but there's no changing that reality. I've said a million times here that there is no way in hell that I would ever knowingly vote for a racist even if he/she agreed with me 100% politically and wanted to do exactly the same things I wanted them to do. It won't happen
Do you have the same disdain and judgement for that guy?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I understand your opposition to their positions and it’s perfectly reasonable way to feel - I just think when you refer to them as socialists you misrepresent them.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
The Party. The GOP. For the purposes of what I referred to (response to someone saying all the GOP has is "they (democrats) are all socialists" the point applies.
ETA. This is not a reasonable position.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Can't speak for anyone else but I am 100% comfortable passing judgment on anyone who took a look a man who has spent his entire lifetime being a bigot and scamming struggling middle class people for his own benefit (including two huge stories that broke during the campaign) and reached the conclusions you describe here.
I wouldn't necessarily call it disdain, but the judgment isn't a positive one to say the least.
You're trying really hard, but not making a very good argument. Trump came down the steps to announce his candidacy by taking stabs at Mexicans. And trying to make the public fear all Muslims. He calls black female reporters 'low IQ'. He's been sued for not renting to blacks. Said the central park five should be put to death. Said the Nazi's had very fine people. STARTED THE BIRTHER THING! His entire candidacy and first term has been centered around racism and bigotry. That can not be denied. If he's getting 90% approval within the party, then that party should not be complaining when someone makes a broad brush statement about it supporting racism.
If a person that's deemed a socialist ever ends up winning the presidency, and is clearly a socialist, then you may call the Democratic party one of socialists. But that hasn't happened.
skol asylum
Footballguy
That's silly. You can easily use the Google to find a copy of their Policy Book.Let’s not change the subject... we have persons in here that actually believe the republican party doesn’t have policy.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
skol asylum
Footballguy
I have a hard time believing that. I think Trump just did a good job with a little help from his Russian friends in turning out the wingnuts by running hard on fear and hate.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I think its obviously disdain, from you specifically and many others here. I'm glad for you that your moral compass is as true as the day is long. Your judgement of folks that looked past his many deficiencies and voted as a hail-mary, or maybe a warning shot to the system that is abandoning them, is shared by a lot of people in higher seats of power than you. Those people cast their judgments daily on TV, in newspapers, on twitter and other social media.
I don't think this is as clear-cut as you think it is, in fact I think you are very, very wrong. I suspect that the ones you and others are judging are looking at your daily broadcast judgement and look forward to telling you to pound sand and then vote for another four years of this idiot. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
He's old and he has goofy hair, for starters.AAABatteries said:
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I'm actually not trying very hard.
I am not calling them the party of socialists. You should understand the context of the conversation before throwing your hat into the ring in an effort to post about how terrible Trump is.
The Commish
Footballguy
I have neither disdain or judgement for anyone in any of these scenarios. It's simply pointing out what you're doing. To answer your question, you simply replace a couple words in the post you quoted. In this scenario you are putting those other things above the guy's racism. And I don't begrudge people for voting for Trump the first time. Even I thought he was just
to every fringe group he could. Never did I think he'd actually do the stupid #### he was saying he'd do. At this point though you should be able to see that he is doing nothing meaningful to help with the economy and the middle class is continuing to go extinct. Obviously, I don't know your personal circumstance on whether he's helped you with your job or not, so I won't comment there. If he's helped you, I'm glad. I would submit though that anecdotes aren't the best way to form policy and the best that can come of the situation you present here is that you've put your personal well being above the guy's racism which is impacting millions of people.
The Commish
Footballguy
Pretty much....there'd be the smallest of points to be had here if she hadn't won the popular vote the way she did. It continues to amaze me the lengths people will go to in order to ignore the monumental errosr the campaign made. I group of Bernie supporters not voting for her in areas she easily won has to be pretty low on the "blame list".
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I'm not putting my personal well being above anyone's racism. I'm not a Trump voter. In fact, I'm the one that started a thread hoping that he gets primaried (a thread in which chief-judge Tobias compared my naivete for simply discussing a primary challenger to his kid believing in the Easter bunny). I've made my point clear, or as clear as I plan to make it. You want to say anyone supporting him is racist or tacitly racist or inherrently racist or what racist. Fine. I disagree.I have neither disdain or judgement for anyone in any of these scenarios. It's simply pointing out what you're doing. To answer your question, you simply replace a couple words in the post you quoted. In this scenario you are putting those other things above the guy's racism. And I don't begrudge people for voting for Trump the first time. Even I thought he was just
The Commish
Footballguy
Again....that's not what's been said. I have said that if you are continuing to actively support Trump, at minimum you are putting "other things" above his racism. As long as you ignore that and try to fit me in the ideal I bolded here, I think we can stop the discussion as you don't seem to want to have an honest one
ETA: And replace "you" with "one" in the post above to remove confusion if it helps clarify the point that remains.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
Okay fair enough. What is the take away of someone that "puts other things" above Trump's racism.Again....that's not what's been said. I have said that if you are continuing to actively support Trump, at minimum you are putting "other things" above his racism. As long as you ignore that and try to fit me in the ideal I bolded here, I think we can stop the discussion as you don't seem to want to have an honest one
whoknew
Footballguy
I totally understand why people hate his writing and think there are good criticisms of him.
Having said that, I enjoy him on Tony Kornheiser's podcast.
The Commish
Footballguy
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