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Outgoing republicans brazenly stealing power from incoming Democrats. Enemies of Democracy. (1 Viewer)

Jackstraw said:
Thought about it some. If I was incoming governor I think I'd use every technical trick in the bag to screw these guys hard. I'd fire every last one of their friends in various state offices. Everything. If they want scorched earth them by golly give it to them. 
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Same

 
Ilov80s said:
So it's all about what you think about things that haven't happened? 
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It's as bad as Mitch McConnell saying Garland was suppressed because of the "Biden rule" which meant that Biden talked about it but never actually did anything.  So it's all good.  

 
The Commish said:
Everyone understands the thread is about the topic in general and it's clear the various incidents are all being discussed here.  It's actively happening in three states.  This is just the shtick used to avoid facing the discussion and reality of what's going on.
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So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 

 
Vice News did a segment on this yesterday. They mentioned that Republicans in WI hold 64% of the Legislature seats despite only receiving 46% of the votes.

And I think that they said that the new state Attorney General can sue the government over the constitutionality of these new laws limiting the power of the governor. So I would imagine that this will not be over any time soon.

 
jon_mx said:
So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 
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The OP mentioned several other states and the title is about the party as a whole. The link in the OP talks specifically about why the op thinks the party is stealing power.  

 
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jon_mx said:
So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 
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This is a really odd post all around.

The topic is about how Republicans are acting as they leave office.  It seems like YOU want to limit it to the incident in the OP.  The OP offers but one situation around the topic.  Others have added other incidents that are similar.  I don't think ANY of it is "off topic" but you seem to.  I searched the topic and see no record of the word troll or banning (other than your post of course), so I am not really sure where you're going with that.

But, hey, create whatever narrative you see as necessary to fit your preconceived notions.  It seems to be working well for you overall around here :thumbup:  

 
jon_mx said:
So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 
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Please start different threads to discuss the various ways in which my party is completely undermining democracy.  There’s too many of them and it gets confusing.

 
jon_mx said:
So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 
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The conversation about Michigan (and North Carolina) isn't a deflection from the general subject. Which is that Republicans believe less and less in the democratic process and more and more about retaining power with a minority of support. I don't see why this would hamper your characteristic deflection attempts, however, nor should it lessen your opportunities to complain about how unfair FBGs is to you personally.

 
“It’s not technically against the rules, therefore I don’t see the problem” is the EXACT defense that a 5 year old gives for doing things that are clearly wrong but not explicitly so. 

I really can’t imagine the GOP as a viable long term party for the next 25 years. They will only survive nationally through gerrymandering, voter suppression and the benefit their base’s geographic distribution gives them in the electoral college. 

 
roadkill1292 said:
jon_mx said:
So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 
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The conversation about Michigan (and North Carolina) isn't a deflection from the general subject. Which is that Republicans believe less and less in the democratic process and more and more about retaining power with a minority of support. I don't see why this would hamper your characteristic deflection attempts, however, nor should it lessen your opportunities to complain about how unfair FBGs is to you personally.
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that made me laugh brohan well done take that to the bank 

 
Jackstraw said:
https://amp.jsonline.com/amp/2198624002?__twitter_impression=true

Look at the list of items at the end the Wisconsin Legislature and Governor is trying to put in place in lame duck session. Effectively clipping the wings of the incoming Dem Governor and legislature. Unconscionable. Spitting in the eye of the voters. Happening in NC, MO, and several other states. 

Between this, gerrymandering, dark money etc. The modern Republican Party is anti-democracy. It just is. How do you “reach across the aisle” to people who do this? 
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Big and bold where the OP talks about things happening in several states.

What has been discussed has been related to the OP from the start.

 
roadkill1292 said:
Which is that Republicans believe less and less in the democratic process and more and more about retaining power with a minority of support. 
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It’s not a question of belief as much as they’re running out of options. They’re taking the easy way out here but even if it works it’s only a temporary fix. 

The Reublicans knew this was going to happen: the “autopsy report” after 2012 predicted it. They were going to lose suburban women, minorities, if they continued to move in a nationalist direction. Their base was too rural, too filled with white males and people without college educations. The report paid particular attention to Latinos; they HAD to make inroads with this group of voters or they faced long term doom. 

Instrad they doubled down. They nominated a nationalist, anti-immigrant candidate who barely won the electoral vote, and now they have spent the last two years purging themselves of politicians who oppose Trump’s essential policies. So here they are; they’re not attracting new voters, they’ve become the party of white rural America: it’s not without a lot of power, but it’s increasingly a minority. And these shenanigans aren’t going to help. 

 
mr roboto said:
“It’s not technically against the rules, therefore I don’t see the problem” is the EXACT defense that a 5 year old gives for doing things that are clearly wrong but not explicitly so. 
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Between NC, Michigan, and Wisconsin, the justification from Republicans of, “it’s not illegal to do this,” even though these drastic measures have never been done before in our history, is astonishing to hear. The loss of decency, decorum, and civility, is running out of the door because some butt hurt Republicans lost. It’s amazing to see but unfortunate to be able to do nothing about it. 

These results are definitive proof, to me, that a lack of education (history, civics, and so on) is causing this. 

 
timschochet said:
Can’t believe I’m going to agree with jon and Jonessed on this one but ...yeah it sounds like hyperbole to me. 

First off, at least in Wisconsin, it sounds like they’re removing powers of the governor that were only given to Scott Walker a few years back- which means that the new governor will be as powerful as he was in...2011. Perhaps the real crime was increasing Walker’s powers in the first place. What they’re doing now is shameful and hypocritical, but a threat to our democratic system? Not so much. 

As for voter supression, it’s awful, but it’s also a plan that’s doomed to fail. The GOP has got a big problem here: they’re not attracting new voters. Rather than trying to truly address it, they’re pulling shenanigans like voter suppression and gerrymandering. These aren’t solutions. 
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What is going on in WI is nowhere near as bad as what is going on in MI. Democrats also don't really have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about what the GOP in WI is doing right now. 

They tried the same thing in 2010 and they fell one vote short because Russ Decker, majority leader at the time, crossed party lines.

As far as the whole going against the will of the voters rhetoric where was that mindset when 14 democrats ran away to illinois to prevent a vote back in 2011? 

I am hopeful the republicans have a Russ Decker among them to make this not happen. But I also don't want to listen to democrats whining about this issue.

 
mr roboto said:
“It’s not technically against the rules, therefore I don’t see the problem” is the EXACT defense that a 5 year old gives for doing things that are clearly wrong but not explicitly so. 

I really can’t imagine the GOP as a viable long term party for the next 25 years. They will only survive nationally through gerrymandering, voter suppression and the benefit their base’s geographic distribution gives them in the electoral college. 
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You are around some scary 5 year olds. I would keep an eye on your pets.

 
parasaurolophus said:
What is going on in WI is nowhere near as bad as what is going on in MI. Democrats also don't really have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about what the GOP in WI is doing right now. 

They tried the same thing in 2010 and they fell one vote short because Russ Decker, majority leader at the time, crossed party lines.

As far as the whole going against the will of the voters rhetoric where was that mindset when 14 democrats ran away to illinois to prevent a vote back in 2011? 

I am hopeful the republicans have a Russ Decker among them to make this not happen. But I also don't want to listen to democrats whining about this issue.
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Do you consider advocating for systemic change "whining" about it? Because that's what some of us are going to do and if would be great if we could get some conservatives to join in with us. From the admittedly small sample of message board posters, however, there has been little interest in change from that side of the aisle.

 
Mario Kart said:
Anyone justifying what happened in Wisconsin today is simply bat#### crazy and needs no respect given to them at any time. I didn't hear Belling's justification today on the radio (I think he told his tale during the 3pm - 4pm hour) but what I did hear him say is ludicrous. Simply put, his justification was, "It's not bad. The Republicans could have done so much more like XYZ. They didn't even weaken the positions because XYZ."

If that allows him to sleep better at night, fine, but what Republicans are saying now is clear bull#### from 2010. A joke this surely is.
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Big difference between justifying what happened in WI and being a republican voter in WI. If you cant see that you fall under the bold category.

 
timschochet said:
It’s not a question of belief as much as they’re running out of options. They’re taking the easy way out here but even if it works it’s only a temporary fix. 

The Reublicans knew this was going to happen: the “autopsy report” after 2012 predicted it. They were going to lose suburban women, minorities, if they continued to move in a nationalist direction. Their base was too rural, too filled with white males and people without college educations. The report paid particular attention to Latinos; they HAD to make inroads with this group of voters or they faced long term doom. 

Instrad they doubled down. They nominated a nationalist, anti-immigrant candidate who barely won the electoral vote, and now they have spent the last two years purging themselves of politicians who oppose Trump’s essential policies. So here they are; they’re not attracting new voters, they’ve become the party of white rural America: it’s not without a lot of power, but it’s increasingly a minority. And these shenanigans aren’t going to help. 
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Yeah, it's a losing effort in the long run. I think. And it won't be an easy thing to kill because one of the things Repubbies do when they get in power (Dems, too -- don't at me, Tobias!) is rig the system further to maintain future power with a minority support. We'll need to get libs and middle of the roaders excited about systemic changes that enhance the democratic process and that's a long, slow, unexciting haul.

 
mrip541 said:
Are there any other examples of dems attempting this kind of thing?  I'm legitimately curious.
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I am not sure. I dont actually pay that close of attention to state politics. I only know as much as I do about recent WI politics because it is on the news all the time and everybody was talking about it. I wouldnt have known about any of the MI issues if not for Ilov80's, one of the few posters that when they mention something, I try to read about it because it is usually interesting.  

 
roadkill1292 said:
Do you consider advocating for systemic change "whining" about it? Because that's what some of us are going to do and if would be great if we could get some conservatives to join in with us. From the admittedly small sample of message board posters, however, there has been little interest in change from that side of the aisle.
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No, I don't consider this whining.

 
mr roboto said:
“It’s not technically against the rules, therefore I don’t see the problem” is the EXACT defense that a 5 year old gives for doing things that are clearly wrong but not explicitly so. 

I really can’t imagine the GOP as a viable long term party for the next 25 years. They will only survive nationally through gerrymandering, voter suppression and the benefit their base’s geographic distribution gives them in the electoral college. 
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Problem, of course, is they are being ruled against as what they are doing IS deemed against the rules....see NC for example.

 
timschochet said:
Are they taking away any long term powers? Or just powers that they previously gave Walker? 
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I don't know the answer to that one right now.

As far as the Attorney General goes, he now needs legislative approval to remove the state from any lawsuit. The sole purpose of that change was to keep us in the Obamacare lawsuit.

 
Cheese and Crackers said:
The WI Democrat lame-duck session 8 years ago was voting to approve some state labor contracts.

Not taking power away from the governor and attorney general.

Slight difference there.
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Also we're talking about a national, systemic problem There are a long list of ways in which the GOP has undermined democracy over the last two years- all the voter suppression (in one case to the point of documented racism), all the fictions about voter fraud, all the obstruction and obfuscation regarding a criminal investigation into election tampering, all the baseless calling into question of election results, all the gerrymandering to the point of unconstitutionality, the thing going on right now in NC-09 and the party and presidency's total silence about it, and now the legislative efforts in several states to undermine the power of a Dem governor by a GOP legislature during lame ducks.

Taken individually, each of these is important and troubling and worth calling out and correcting, but not massive scandals. Taken together, however, they amount to a massive story with an inevitable conclusion- the Trump-era GOP is attempting to undermine democracy. And they're not even trying that hard to hide it. Does anyone really believe otherwise?  I barely even got started with the details in the previous paragraph and it already paints a shocking picture.

 
I actually thought that Florida voting rights suppression for those with criminal records actually went back into the Jim Crow days. But, yeah, they were among the last to take any corrective action.

 
Cheese and Crackers said:
The WI Democrat lame-duck session 8 years ago was voting to approve some state labor contracts.

Not taking power away from the governor and attorney general.

Slight difference there.
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A big reason the GOP is doing what they are doing is to keep WI from withdrawing from the lawsuit to get rid of the ACA and to prevent Evers from dissolving Walker's Jobs agency. Something Evers and Kaul campaigned on. 

The democrats tried what they did to hamstring walker's desire to get concessions from the union, something he campaigned on. 

I don't think there is much of a difference there. 

ETA: This is also ignoring that in 2011 14 senators fled the state of wisconsin in order to skirt a law that would have allowed police to actually bring them to vote if they remained in the state. All in an effort to block the same legislation they tried to subvert in the lame duck session. 

 
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roadkill1292 said:
I actually thought that Florida voting rights suppression for those with criminal records actually went back into the Jim Crow days. But, yeah, they were among the last to take any corrective action.
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Correct. The law before Amendment 4 gave the governor and his appointees the power to restore voting rights to felons. So, Scott and other Republicans made restoration nearly impossible. 

BTW , in 2000, Bush won Florida by only 537 votes. A margin that Democratic leaning felons would've easily overcome had voting rights for felons been easy to restore at that time.

 
Cheese and Crackers said:
timschochet said:
Are they taking away any long term powers? Or just powers that they previously gave Walker? 
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I don't know the answer to that one right now.

As far as the Attorney General goes, he now needs legislative approval to remove the state from any lawsuit. The sole purpose of that change was to keep us in the Obamacare lawsuit.
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could wisconsin just really do a half assed job and just have a crap argument based on finders v keepers and just lionel hutz the hell out of it even if they have to stay in it take that to the bank brohan 

 
parasaurolophus said:
I am not sure. I dont actually pay that close of attention to state politics. I only know as much as I do about recent WI politics because it is on the news all the time and everybody was talking about it. I wouldnt have known about any of the MI issues if not for Ilov80's, one of the few posters that when they mention something, I try to read about it because it is usually interesting.  
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This was the same state where Democrat Senators fled the state to prevent the legislature from having the required quorum to vote on bills.  Seems that is much closer to being 'Enemies of Democracy' than this. 

 
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jon_mx said:
This was the same state where Democrat Senators fled the state to prevent the legislature from having the required quorum to vote on bills.  Seems that is much closer to being 'Enemies of Democracy' than this.  
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Well, one was just a temporary stalling tactic and the other is an actual change in the law, so there's a pretty significant difference there. 

But the biggest difference is that one was a standalone stunt (and was covered extensively and treated as a scandal), whereas the other is just the latest in a long line of anti-democratic actions and rhetoric from the Republican party over the last three years. If you ignore that context you totally miss the larger point.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Well, one was just a temporary stalling tactic and the other is an actual change in the law, so there's a pretty significant difference there. 

But the biggest difference is that one was a standalone stunt (and was covered extensively and treated as a scandal), whereas the other is just the latest in a long line of anti-democratic actions and rhetoric from the Republican party over the last three years. If you ignore that context you totally miss the larger point.
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Plenty did not treat it like a scandal. In fact I would argue plenty of coverage was quite favorable to the democrats. Some quick googling seems to confirm that. 

 
jon_mx said:
So it is OK to expand the topic into whatever some posters want, but if other posters drift every so slightly off topic the thread Nazi's appear and they are condemned as trolls and need to be banned.    The article posted in the OP does not support the title and the commentary in the OP is whacked out. 
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It really does seem like evading. Did I miss the posts where you commented on any of what is happening in Michigan?

 
parasaurolophus said:
Plenty did not treat it like a scandal. In fact I would argue plenty of coverage was quite favorable to the democrats. Some quick googling seems to confirm that. 
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Fair enough. I don't remember much about it other than it being treated as hilarious, but I kinda recalled it being mocked and considered ineffective as well. 

Maybe it's just that I get all my news from conservatives and you get yours from liberals ;)

 
TobiasFunke said:
Fair enough. I don't remember much about it other than it being treated as hilarious, but I kinda recalled it being mocked and considered ineffective as well. 

Maybe it's just that I get all my news from conservatives and you get yours from liberals ;)
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To be honest i do get a ton more of my news from Wapo than i used thanks mostly to you. 

ETA: i should thank tanner too since he is who taught me about incognito mode. 

 
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Some more on Michigan

Although the administration of state elections and the enforcement of campaign finance regulations are two of the secretary of state's principal duties, none of Benson's three Republican predecessors have shown much enthusiasm for reforms that would make it easier to vote or that would require dark money donors whose financial support plays an ever-expanding role in Michigan elections to disclose their identities.

Benson is an enthusiastic supporter of both initiatives — which explains the Republican Legislature's haste to circumscribe her statutory authority before she takes office. 

Senate Bill 1250, sponsored by term-limited Sen. Dave Robertson (R-Grand Blanc), would transfer oversight of campaign finance from the secretary of state's office to a new, bipartisan panel whose Republican members could effectively block any enforcement effort. (Robertson himself has been a frequent target of sanctions for campaign finance violations.)
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and another bill

Also advancing this week is HB 6553, which would guarantee that either the Senate or the House could intervene in any legal dispute if it disagreed with the position of Michigan's attorney general, whose constitutional prerogative it is to represent the state in court.

The bill's sponsor, term-limited Rep. Rob VerHeulen (R-Walker), insists the bill would not encroach on the prerogatives of the Democratic AG-elect. But VeHeulen and his fellow GOP vandals are still stinging from a recent court decision rejecting their attempt to intervene in a lawsuit in which the League of Women Voters has challenged the constitutionality of a Republican-led gerrymander. If the challengers prevail, Michigan could be ordered to reconfigure its legislative and congressional boundaries before the 2020 election.

Republicans are probably correct in suspecting that AG-elect Nessel won't be very aggressive about defending the gerrymander, which flagrantly trampled the rights of Democratic voters.
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This one is important because they need to do everything that can to fight against the anti-gerrymandering proposal that passed and especially to fight the Federal Case being brought against the State for their gerrymandering. My perogative is that after years of real shady dealings, it has all caught up with them and they are now pulling every dirty move they can to try to save their skins. I wonder about all the things we don't yet know about- the things they might have done that wasn't done in the light of day. 

 
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jon_mx said:
This was the same state where Democrat Senators fled the state to prevent the legislature from having the required quorum to vote on bills.  Seems that is much closer to being 'Enemies of Democracy' than this. 
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This might be a good time for us to pause and understand exactly what you think "enemies of democracy" means as a phrase.  It's pretty clear what the OP thinks it means, but with posts like this, I think it'd be good if you'd clarify what it means to you.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Well, one was just a temporary stalling tactic and the other is an actual change in the law, so there's a pretty significant difference there. 

But the biggest difference is that one was a standalone stunt (and was covered extensively and treated as a scandal), whereas the other is just the latest in a long line of anti-democratic actions and rhetoric from the Republican party over the last three years. If you ignore that context you totally miss the larger point. 
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Leaving the state was an underhanded political tactic to stall legislation indefinitely, it was only stopped because it looked so bad.  I for the life of me fail to understand what is undemocratic about an elected legislature exercising their power to pass a law. 

 
jon_mx said:
Leaving the state was an underhanded political tactic to stall legislation indefinitely, it was only stopped because it looked so bad.  I for the life of me fail to understand what is undemocratic about an elected legislature exercising their power to pass a law. 
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The idea that it's impossible for an elected legislature to act in a way that is undemocratic is laughable. Legislatures pass laws that undermine or harm democracy in ways large and small all the time. And if course it's particularly absurd coming from the people (you specifically included) who defended the US Senate's decision to defer on its constitutional duty of advise and consent on a Supreme Court nominee by claiming that the people had a right to be heard a full year before the end of the previous administration. Apparently February of an election year is too close to the election for a legislature to take action without hearing about whether the people want change, but a lame-duck session after an election in which the people have already said they want change is A-OK?

Anyway, if these were not an obvious norm-breaking moves then you would be able to give us several counterexamples of Democratic legislatures proposing/passing legislation limiting the power and reach of incoming GOP administrations during a lame duck session. After all there have been plenty of opportunities for them to do so, given the shifts that occurred in the 2010, 2014 and 2016 elections, right? Let me know when you find one. Until then this disingenuous nonsense is just that.

 
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jon_mx said:
Leaving the state was an underhanded political tactic to stall legislation indefinitely, it was only stopped because it looked so bad.  I for the life of me fail to understand what is undemocratic about an elected legislature exercising their power to pass a law. 
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And many including those even seem as liberal here now (me, for example) called them out and were supportive of walkers overall stance (but not all of his tactics either.  cr8f was one of the few against walker and not even sure how much he supported that. 

But how can one be so against that yet basically defend what’s going in now is odd.

The law they are passing is to go against the will of the people now in taking away power.  It’s bogus and it’s not a bad thing to call it out as such.

 
I started out here as a Walker supporter back in 2011.

Thought the Democrats running away was stupid back then, and still do. However what the Republicans are doing is worse for democracy than that stunt ever was. 

Is our old buddy @cr8f still around, we had some fun with him in that thread. 

 
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