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QB Kyler Murray, ARZ (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bracie Smathers
- Start date
rockaction
Footballguy
Isabella, Butler, Johnson, Murray, etc. That offense looks dynamic.
Yikes. I feel like Arizona kept sniping the Jets just a few picks beforehand.
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
Lots of weapons in that offense now. It’s exciting.
He’s my pick at 1.11
I’ve got Russ and Wentz ... but there’s no way my letting him fall to the top of the 2nd in my league. Too much potential.
KK paired with Kyler, and these weapons? That offense is going to be very aggressive.
i like it.
He’s my pick at 1.11
I’ve got Russ and Wentz ... but there’s no way my letting him fall to the top of the 2nd in my league. Too much potential.
KK paired with Kyler, and these weapons? That offense is going to be very aggressive.
i like it.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Raptors409
Footballguy
I normally don't draft rookie Quarterbacks but if he falls far enough, why not give him a shot? I remember RG3 putting up some gaudy numbers before he tore his ACL and was never the same again. But this is projected to be another crappy Cardinals team, right? A team that's probably going to see a lot of garbage time. A team that is running an Air Raid offense.
If he falls far enough, you have a player that you know will be ON THE FIELD. All you need is a run of 2-3 good games in a row and you could probably flip him for 3 - 4 times what his current cost is. Especially to a team that needs a Quarterback in a hurry. He's a great investment and if the price is right, I'm taking him in my rookie draft tomorrow.
If he falls far enough, you have a player that you know will be ON THE FIELD. All you need is a run of 2-3 good games in a row and you could probably flip him for 3 - 4 times what his current cost is. Especially to a team that needs a Quarterback in a hurry. He's a great investment and if the price is right, I'm taking him in my rookie draft tomorrow.
Not to mention a very inventive and aggressive play caller.
Right now I'm absolutely looking at Murray in round 1 of dynasty drafts, regardless of league type. In standard, I think 1.10 is a very fair spot for him.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
The 2 concerns for me are the OL is still bad and it disrupts the offense, gets Murray beat up, etc and that Kingsbury is just in over his head and the experiment goes the way of Chip Kelly.
Chip Kelly was an excellent coach for fantasy though. Nick Foles, LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson, and Jeremy Maclin all had career years in his offense.
I'm with you on the o-line concerns, though acquiring Gilbert and getting Shipley back should help. RT and C were black holes last year, and they are both at least average starters.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
That’s fair, he was actually ok as a coach. He was just a terrible GM who gave away all best players.
It didn't help his case that the next guy won a Super Bowl in 2 years time.
Kelly even got a career year from Carlos Hyde, and solid play(over 90 rating, 4-1 TD/INT ratio) from Kaepernick in San Fran.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Kingsbury plans to run a lot of single back/4-wides, up-tempo, attack the entire field and he says that Kyler will take off if they let him. Seems like fantasy gold.
Arizona: Hello Kyler
Five-wides and spreading it out even further horizontally will open massive running lanes.
I am good at QB but he's my #1 target in our annual dynasty rookie draft and I may not get him since it takes place after all preseason games are played.
pantherclub
Footballguy
^ didnt spurrier do this in Washington and basically get Patrick Ramesy killed?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Spurrier had a QB who did not fit his two-QB Fun-and-Gun system and Ramsey was not anywhere near as good as Murray. Kingsbury never had a QB that fit his system in college like Kyler Murray so he has the perfect fit for his system with Murray's unparalleled athleticism and mobility.pantherclub said:
Spurrier did not have a QB with talent in 2002 to rate as the 1st pick of the draft. Ramsey was the last pick of the 1st round. Ramsey had a big arm and was a scholar but nowhere near the prospect of Murray.
Murray has world class speed running the forty in the Tyreek Hill 4.3 range who passed for over 4,000 yards is extremely accurate, made big plays with his arm 42 TDs, and rushed for 1,000 yards with 12 TDs. Ramsey never passed for over 25 TDs in any season at Tulane and rushed for -1 yards his rookie season.
The only comparison that comes close is the coaching of Kingsbury and Spurrier who came in with hype but Spurrier's two-QB Fun-and-Gun wasn't anything like the Air Raid and Ramsey was nothing like Kyler Murray as a prospect. Kyler was the first pick of the draft but Ramsey back in 2002 was the last player taken in the first round. Murray was taken first for many reasons, it was not just because he fit Kingsbury's Air Raid. That fell into place.
I doubt Washington took Ramsey to fit Spurrier's system because Ramsey's meal ticket was his big arm and Spurrier never adapted to a vertical offense and got fired. Ramsey was picked up and got chances with many teams who were intrigued with the arm but it never worked out but he was not a fit for Spurrier's system from the get-go whereas Kyler Murray paired with the Air Raid of Kingsbuy seems like an excellent fit IMHO.
pantherclub
Footballguy
^ I am just saying the lack of protection that running 4 wideouts will give you is a good way to get your (undersized) qb hit. When you dont leave someone in the backfield to block as Spurrier did, then your qb tends to get hit, a lot regardless of his ability to adapt to whatever scheme. Its simply a numbers game.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I don't know why/how Kingsbury got the gig and I can't see his coaching career being successful just because he leveraged a scheme but the scheme is a perfect fit for Murray and Murray has many transferable skills IMHO.
Only Michael Vick has a better 40 of any first round QB in NFL history so that isn't hyperbole.here comes @ZenoRazon
As per getting hit. What Kingsbury is describing isn't an RPO and it is nothing like what Baltimore is doing with Lamar Jackson that has been described as a 'Load Option', he's talking about spreading things out horizontally and taking advantage of open running lanes.
Per taking hits. He has a solid baseball background and has mastered the slide and when he's in the pocket he is very good avoiding hits.FMIA: Kyler Murray and One Coach’s Argument For Why The Small QB Will Have a Massive Impact in the NFL ..
Horizontal spread opens running lanes, its not an option and when he took off he made big plays because he has elite speed but he killed from the pocket and threw most passes (89%) from the pocket and was highly accurate 67% completion.
He was drafted in baseball, he has baseball skills. One of the basic baseball skills is mastering the slide, he has and knows how to get down and avoid contact and he also has a great arm with 'snap throws' like a SS who can throw around a guy trying to take out his legs sliding into second base.
Its all there to see. He's got it.
When Jerry Rice was at Mississippi Valley State they ran a five receiver split wide offense, they only ran the ball in short yardage situations. Willie Totten the QB just stood back there in the shot gun looking for the open man, usually Rice. They averaged over 50 points a game (vs HBCU competition) and set a ton of NCAA records.
Can that work in the NFL? I do doubt it.
Can that work in the NFL? I do doubt it.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
"We have Brett Hundley here, who we are very excited about," - said no one else ever.
Shawnky
Footballguy
+1
Obviously we have yet to see this play out, but I'm not buying in on it. Multiple examples of coaches coming in trying to implement a college scheme and it not working. Those coaches were actually top notch in college.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Klingsbury hasn't shown he can win but he's shown his system works and he's never had a QB who fit his system like Kyler.
Spurrier tried to force-fite his system onto players who didn't fit. Kelly's system wasn't as QB dependent as Klingsbury's and no NFL has ever hired a HC who said that if he had the top pick he would draft the QB who fit his system and then a few months later had the first pick and took the guy who perfectly fit his system.
So their aren't multiple examples of what is taking place in Arizona. Their aren't' any examples since it has never happened especially when the team had moved-up to take a QB in the first round the previous year and then traded them away for the QB who perfectly fits the system that the new HC is implementing.
You are right, we haven't seen it play out yet but their aren't any examples like Arizona. It could very-well work out for Kyler since he has transferable skills but it may not work out for Klingsbury where Kyler posts top fantasy points but his coach fails for other reasons. Klingsbury was the questionable hire. NFL head coaching duties run far from their ability to implement an offensive system. He has many areas that he can fail, Kyler can win outside of the system.
pantherclub
Footballguy
ummmmmm, does the name Patrick mahomes ring a bell?Bracie Smathers said:
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Mahomes was great in college so point conceded but Kyler posted better stats on average (completion percent, YPA, INT rate, etc) when he was at Oklahoma and the thing that separates them is the rushing threat of Murray with his speed.
Mahomes 4.8 forty and averaged 2.7 YPA to Murray's 'reported' 4.37 and over 7 yards per attempt.
The only QB taken at the top of the draft who came in with more speed was Michael Vick but he wasn't nearly as accomplished as a passer (low TDs, poor completion percent 56%, nowhere near passer of Mahomes or Murray) but it sure would have been fun to see him in the Air Raid.
Klingsbury hasn't had anyone who fit his system like Kyler that will allow him to spread things out even further horizontally and use up-tempo to gas pass rushers which will open running lanes.
I concede Mahomes as a passer but Kingsbury has never had a duel-threat QB who fit his system like Kyler Murray with his speed and passing ability.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
If Murray is going to use his legs to move the ball downfield he isn’t going to last long. He needs to use that speed to create space and throwing opportunities, to extend plays and give his receivers that much more chance to get open. This is the NFL. If Murray is running with any kind of regularity at all he’s eventually going to end up as a stain on the field.
steelers1080
Footballguy
Definitely, he needs to transition similar to Russell Wilson, where he's pass first, pass second, run third. Get out of the pocket, but still keep those eyes downfield before sliding or running OB.
If Kingsbury's offensive scheme works in the NFL, Kyler Murray will be a top 5 QB within a few years. I'm not convinced it will work with the narrower hash marks and less ability to spread out, but if it does it will be a sight to behold. Kingsbury has shown the ability to have an amazing offense, he just needs his own Wade Phillips to run the D, and we'll see if Vance can do that for the Cards.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Klingsbury has said how he plans to use Kyler's running ability and it is NOT an RPO or an option of any kind. Bronco Billy has it wrong, he hasn't read what Klingsbury has said how he plans to use the threat of Murray's speed which is to go 5-wides and spread things out even fuuuuuuuurther horizontally where Murray's arm can hit the far hash and then he plans on playing up-tempo to gas pass rushers. If they blitz he can hit the quick completion and if they spread out coverage the running lanes will widen and Kyler can take advantage.
I am really curious to see if Kingsbury can get his system up and running and if Arizona has the players to pull it off because if the Air Raid can work Kyler is the QB to optimize its potential.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
If you are correct in your prediction, Kingsbury might want to have a serious conversation with June Jones and Mouse Davis before it’s too late.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Steve Spurrier almost had his Ramesy killed running this type of offense. I dont give a crap who your qb is 5 wides on a consistent basis will never, repeat never work in the NFL. The defenses are way too fast for this. The qb would get killed, especially one like Murray.
kutta
Footballguy
JetMaxx
Footballguy
Up tempo gasses pass rushers AND your own OL, especially when their not given any help in scheme or personnel in pass pro. In addition it’s usually counterintuitive to your own defense when your offense repeatedly goes 3 and out in less than 5 minutes.Bracie Smathers said:
Players and coaches are just too good for that to succeed on the NFL level
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Its not a prediction. He said it, I posted it above and I've referenced what he said many times but one more time direct quotes from the GM who took Murray and the guy who wanted Murray since high school. I'm going to include a lot more since people have no clue what he has said.
Arizona: Hello Kyler
Base will be 4-wides and 1 back with consistent no-huddle. Game plan specific where he will spread it out even further. Key is the speed of Kyler. Klingsbury wanted him since he was a sophomore, Keim didn't even want to evaluate him since he had Rosen but he had never seen anyone like him as a passer and runner. His film study made him come to the conclusion that even though he had Rosen, Kyler Murray was the guy who could make the biggest impact from the draft. Klingsbury wanted him since high school and Murray fits the scheme perfectly.
Misconception, IMHO is that he'll get killed. OK. The top running QBs in the NFL in terms of carries and yards were:
-------------------- ===== Attempts -- yards - TDs
- Lamar Jackson --- 147 ---- 695 ----- 5
- Cam Newton ------- 101----- 488 ----- 4
- Deshaun Watson -- 99 ----- 551 ----- 5
- Josh Allen ------------- 89 ----- 631 ----- 8
- Dak Prescott --------- 75 ----- 305 ----- 6
- Mitchell Trubisky --- 68 ---- 421 ----- 3
- Russell Wilson ------- 67 ---- 376 ----- 0
- Marcus Mariota ----- 64 ---- 357 ----- 2
- Patrick Mahomes --- 60 ---- 272 ---- 2
I doubt they are going to bang Kyler between the tackles at the goal or have him pushing the pile in short yardage. Of the full-time starters Eli Manning was tied for last with 15 carries for 20 yards. It's not unreasonable to see Murray with 75 to 95 carries this year meaning he should only have about 2 more rushes per game than an average NFL QB but when he hits the open field he's going to be a threat with his speed.
pantherclub
Footballguy
^ He is going to get killed if KK plans to run that offense. Everybody is fast in the NFL
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The 'too-small' crowd would say he'll get killed no matter what sort of offense is run and quite frankly that has been overplayed.
Klingsbury is going to run his offense, the one that Kyler Murray is a perfect fit.
No NFL QB is as fast as Kyler. He is the fastest and may be the 2nd fastest starting QB in NFL history.
Kyler Murray’s 40-Yard Dash Time Among Fastest Ever by NFL QB
pantherclub
Footballguy
he is still going to get hit. Speed or not if you try and run that offense
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
kutta
Footballguy
I don't know if you are calling him "Klingsbury" because his first name is "Kliff," but his last name doesn't have an "L."
If it's a play on words, carry on.
pantherclub
Footballguy
You know when people say he is going to get killed it's not in the literal sense right?
Kyler is 5’10 207
Brandin Cooks, Tyreek Hill, and Antonio Brown are all about 5’10 185 and seem to have all stayed healthy getting tackled. And Murray will probably take less open field hits with sliding. What’s the difference in how these players for example haven’t gotten “killed” on the football field?
Brandin Cooks, Tyreek Hill, and Antonio Brown are all about 5’10 185 and seem to have all stayed healthy getting tackled. And Murray will probably take less open field hits with sliding. What’s the difference in how these players for example haven’t gotten “killed” on the football field?
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
Considering the options at 1.9 this year, if he is there I am taking him and not looking back. It would either be him, a WR for Baltimore or some other run of the mill WR or backup RB. I will take my chances on Murray.
