Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Maybe they want him to compete. Didn’t the Cowboys do this back in the day with Aikman and Steve Walsh?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
QB Kyler Murray, ARZ (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bracie Smathers
- Start date
There is no real need to deal Rosen if they draft Murray. The combined salary would still be lower than 18 individual QB's, and roughly the same as Mariota/Tannehill or Trubisky/Daniel.
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
kittenmittens
Footballguy
I think Arizona is holding on to Rosen for now to keep their options open. They have probably talked to teams to see who might be interested so they can trade during the draft. If they like both Rosen and Murray, they can wait until they are on the clock to see if somebody wants to pay a ransom to get Kyler. If nobody bites, they can take Kyler and deal Rosen to a QB needy team on draft day or after.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Gil Brandt on nfl radio said Oakland met with murray today, after Arizona recently met with Bosa.
Several ways to connect those dots.
Simplest answer is that Arizona is doing their due diligence and Oakland is evaluating murray in case he slides to 1.4 (or even later, who knows).
Another possibility is that the cardinals trade down to 1.4... maybe getting carr in the process?
Another possibility is that the cardinals trade down to a team that's going after haskins, knowing that they might get murray a few picks later and that a guy like bosa isn't a bad consolation prize.
Another possibility is that Arizona isn't getting any takers for Rosen at a price they'd consider, and are trying to decide whether rosen plus bosa is better than murray plus what they've been offered.
And maybe if that happens they could really gamble and try to trade rosen, 2.1 and x to move back up and get murray on the hope he slides. That could be pretty amazing for them if it worked but hard to say what it would cost without knowing the offers they're getting for rosen or how far murray would really slide. I don't think they could go into the draft planning on that - and i doubt they would hype him up so much if that was their plan - but wouldn't it be neat?
Several ways to connect those dots.
Simplest answer is that Arizona is doing their due diligence and Oakland is evaluating murray in case he slides to 1.4 (or even later, who knows).
Another possibility is that the cardinals trade down to 1.4... maybe getting carr in the process?
Another possibility is that the cardinals trade down to a team that's going after haskins, knowing that they might get murray a few picks later and that a guy like bosa isn't a bad consolation prize.
Another possibility is that Arizona isn't getting any takers for Rosen at a price they'd consider, and are trying to decide whether rosen plus bosa is better than murray plus what they've been offered.
And maybe if that happens they could really gamble and try to trade rosen, 2.1 and x to move back up and get murray on the hope he slides. That could be pretty amazing for them if it worked but hard to say what it would cost without knowing the offers they're getting for rosen or how far murray would really slide. I don't think they could go into the draft planning on that - and i doubt they would hype him up so much if that was their plan - but wouldn't it be neat?
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Or learn from Cleveland's drafting of Baker Mayfield last year because the NFL game has changed.
People who study the game provide reasons with examples why Kyler Murray is not just the top QB but top player from this draft class.
They specifically note their data showed well before the draft that Cleveland should draft QB Baker Mayfield last year with the first pick and they use the same data to say Kyler Murray should be the top pick this year.
Why Kyler Murray is the top player on the PFF 2019 NFL Draft Board
Go to the link for the full article/data with video clips to back their take.
bucksoh
Footballguy
He is not a top prospect because of his measurables. You can show almost any qb highlights to make them look good. There is a reason why Russell Wilson was a third round pick and it was because of his measurables. It's why some teams are bad at drafting and why some aren't. You can get lucky like the Seahawks did but the good teams would never draft a 3rd round prospect #1 overrall. Could the Cards get lucky it is possible but the odds are heavily stacked against Murray succeeding. Big difference in height between Murray and Mayfield even though you're not willing to admit it.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Why do you say I'm unwilling to admit that Murray is short and light?
Murray has the same height and weight that lead him to collegiate success.
The NFL got it wrong with Russell Wilson and you would be wrong if you feel that Russell Wilson would fall to the 3rd round in this draft due to his height.
Their are no studies showing height/weight correlate to NFL success or failure.
Their are studies that show college metrics/characteristics correlate to NFL success. He has characteristics that dominated two sports as did Russell WIlson. He played in the same system as Baker Mayfield and faced similar competition.
Analytic studies of characteristics are not highlights. The highlights help explain the characteristic that transfer to the NFL.
THE ADVANCED ANALYTICAL SIDE OF MURRAY From George Chahrouri & Eric Eager
rockaction
Footballguy
You posted the same link because it's obvious bucksoh didn't read it, didn't you?
bucksoh
Footballguy
Because you say he is the top prospect in the draft. Murray is a one year wonder another big? Added with his lack of measurables, there is no way he should be drafted high. As for no studies, as far as I know there is no qbs in the HOF under 5ft 11 in.. the nfl didn't get it wrong with Wilson there just wasn't any data for short qbs(drafted) given how easy it is to play qb. So far he has been the only one who has had some success with qbs under 6 ft tall.
QB Eddie LeBaron had a decent NFL career at only 5-7, sure a whole other football world in his day.
There is just something about Murray I don't like and it's how he doesn't appear to get what's really going on. I don't like his dad involved, and do expect to see some problems on the horizon because of it.
Russell Wilson (keeps being compared to Wilson) is on a whole totally different level than Murray and it's very obvious, his running is smart running, he gets it. I expect to see Murray just running and it won't be long before....there he lays in a heap.
If I'm the Cards I keep what I got and get all I can for that first pick.
There is just something about Murray I don't like and it's how he doesn't appear to get what's really going on. I don't like his dad involved, and do expect to see some problems on the horizon because of it.
Russell Wilson (keeps being compared to Wilson) is on a whole totally different level than Murray and it's very obvious, his running is smart running, he gets it. I expect to see Murray just running and it won't be long before....there he lays in a heap.
If I'm the Cards I keep what I got and get all I can for that first pick.
Last edited by a moderator:
bucksoh
Footballguy
When ever I post I refer to the modern NFL. I know you're old and I can repect your views on the time and era the players played in but he would never been able to play in the modern NFL.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I think he is the top QB in this draft. I started this thread well before he was considered for the top pick and many thought he wouldn't get drafted due to his baseball contract but his numbers are incredible and he has much more to give than most QB prospects.bucksoh said:
The only argument you provide is lack of measurables when analytic studies show their is no correlation to NFL success or failure.
The reason why few QBs with his measurables come into the league with his production metrics is because they are rare because the production metrics indicate characteristics that translate to the NFL. The measurables don't matter because he has already produced in college.
No data exists for his measureables because no one with his measurables posted his numbers. Measurables don't matter, production metrics and the characteristics that transfer to the NFL do.
As for not liking his personality or his dad, yeah people didn't like Baker Mayfield because he's arrogant but he went number one in a deep QB class for many reasons that relate to characteristics that transfer to the NFL. And many realize they made mistakes in not taking Patrick Mahomes sooner or DeSuan Watson or Russell Wilson sooner so that is why every QB drafted recently was either the top pick where no other team could move to get them or teams had to move up in the draft to get a shot at a QB.
You don't seem to have anything other than measureables so...
rockaction
Footballguy
What's farcical about the situation? They think there's a better QB out there that could be a franchise guy. Rotoworld's analysis stinks sometimes. Like, really bad.
squistion
Footballguy
Um, yes, indeed it does, but in this case the analysis was by Bleacher Report and not Rotoworld
rockaction
Footballguy
Oh, okay. I saw that it was Matt Miller from BR, but the blurb sure sounded like Rotoworld. My bad. Thanks, squis.
Despite my sourcing error, it's still not a farce, and the implication it is shows some questionable judgment on the part of whoever wrote the blurb.
squistion
Footballguy
I am not sure what is farcical about it either.
Bleacher Report is just about clickbait. The site policy seems to be to have writers say outlandish things to in order to generate more clicks and in turn be at the top of any Google search - and they have been blatantly shameless about it for years.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Stopped reading at measurables don't matter, not worth discussing with you, I'm sure a lot of teams think this way so I'll bow down to your knowlege. Why even have the combine then.
Probably a legit question, to be honest. At least moreso than declaring a player without a certain measureable having no chance for success.
Fourth round prospect.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I know you guys have been debating this a while but I think it's reasonable to say "quarterbacks under 6 feet have a serious disadvantage as pocket passers" and it's also reasonable to say "shorter, mobile quarterbacks can maneuver in the pocket to find clear passing lanes and extend plays in the nfl if they have the right coaching and arm talent".
It's true that there aren't many shorter quarterbacks in the hall of fame, but that's partly because teams rarely give shorter quarterbacks an opportunity to start.
It's unreasonable to think that every good short qb will be as good as Brees and Wilson - and murray is shorter than either. But it's also reasonable to think that he will get more opportunities than other short quarterbacks, especially if he goes number one overall.
And while it's extremely rare for short quarterbacks to succeed, it's also extremely rare to find a player with the natural athleticism to be an elite two sport athlete - not just good but great at both sports.
I totally agree with you that there's a real bust risk, and it doesn't make sense to take risks with the number one pick when there's legitimate star talent available at marquis positions.
But I also don't blame anyone for chasing elite upside at quarterback, because a truly great quarterback can permanently redefine a franchise in a way that no other position can.
bucksoh
Footballguy
I never said he had no chance for sucess, i said based on his measurables, also a one year wonder, and he has problem making nfl throws is why i have him as a 4th round prospect. I however wouldn't draft him til later on in the draft. Only time will tell.Probably a legit question, to be honest. At least moreso than declaring a player without a certain measureable having no chance for success.
Fourth round prospect.
TakiToki
Footballguy
There is certainly risk with Murray. He's a unicorn, and there is no basis for comparison with other prospects. He has Vick-like mobility with a reasonably big arm, yet with accuracy, touch and feel.
But yeah, he's short. Real short, and that's a big deal. Were he 6'2 or 6'3, he'd be probably be the best QB prospect of all-time. Do his amazing strengths make up for a big liability, and does he have the chops to make the most of his amazing strengths against NFL defenses?
We'll see. He might be my favorite player in nearly 40 years of being a ridiculous Sooner fan, so not gonna claim much objectivity here. But I don't just blindly love Sooners' NFL prospects, and am typically lower than average in my opinions of their pro futures. I would take him over Baker in a heartbeat.
But yeah, he's short. Real short, and that's a big deal. Were he 6'2 or 6'3, he'd be probably be the best QB prospect of all-time. Do his amazing strengths make up for a big liability, and does he have the chops to make the most of his amazing strengths against NFL defenses?
We'll see. He might be my favorite player in nearly 40 years of being a ridiculous Sooner fan, so not gonna claim much objectivity here. But I don't just blindly love Sooners' NFL prospects, and am typically lower than average in my opinions of their pro futures. I would take him over Baker in a heartbeat.
RUSF18
Footballguy
bucksoh
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You picked out the one and only negative on his vision on MOF throws,
You conveniently skipped this part.I skipped over lots of things, this is just on his ability to make NFL throws. Again to stress that this is JUST on his ability to make NFL throws.
Why Kyler Murray is the top player on the PFF 2019 NFL Draft Board
We're sure you are not afraid to give Kyler Murray any credit so just helping you out so you don't look like THAT GUY since you mentioned me and the link that clearly shows Kyler Murray can make NFL throws at a high level that transfers to the NFL.
rockaction
Footballguy
I made that very clear about a different game. My NFL starts in 1920-2019, I need it all.
But, I will only talk modern with you.
I do think size with matter more with Murray than it does with Wilson/Brees, they are all time greats, I don't see that ever being Murray.
Last edited by a moderator:
OU#1
Footballguy
Whoever has concerns about Kyler being a mobile QB and taking hits didn’t watch any OU games last year. I’ve never seen a QB gain so many rushing yards and take such few hits. It was amazing. He was doing it to protect his baseball career, but the bottom line is he knows how to avoid punishment like nobody I’ve ever seen. I think this has a lot to do with his draft stock rising so much. While the NFL likes the idea of a mobile QB they never last, and Kyler can last if he does what he did last year IMHO.
Also the knock on NFL size seems to be around a QBs ability to see over an offensive line, and also his ability to take punishment. I spoke to the latter, and for the former I will say OU had one of the top O lines in CFB last year all of which are NFL prospect O linemen. I don’t know measurements on height but I done believe that line was below average in height by any means. So I don’t think he had any issues seeing over his OLine...
Also the knock on NFL size seems to be around a QBs ability to see over an offensive line, and also his ability to take punishment. I spoke to the latter, and for the former I will say OU had one of the top O lines in CFB last year all of which are NFL prospect O linemen. I don’t know measurements on height but I done believe that line was below average in height by any means. So I don’t think he had any issues seeing over his OLine...
Last edited by a moderator:
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Can anyone speak to where they think Murray would/should go in rookie drafts for 1 QB leagues? I've seen anything from 1st round to low 2nd...
That's quite a range.
Maybe a better question is, where should he go compared to Mayfield last year?
That's quite a range.
Maybe a better question is, where should he go compared to Mayfield last year?
Last edited by a moderator:
