Cool. IMO most people think DACA is good legislation but the current polarized environment is what is holding that and other progress back.
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Undocumented Immigrant Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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Big League Chew
Footballguy
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
To all of the great people who are working so hard for your Country and not getting paid I say, THANK YOU - YOU ARE GREAT PATRIOTS! We must now work together, after decades of abuse, to finally fix the Humanitarian, Criminal & Drug Crisis at our Border. WE WILL WIN BIG!
@realDonaldTrump
To all of the great people who are working so hard for your Country and not getting paid I say, THANK YOU - YOU ARE GREAT PATRIOTS! We must now work together, after decades of abuse, to finally fix the Humanitarian, Criminal & Drug Crisis at our Border. WE WILL WIN BIG!
Big League Chew
Footballguy
Sweet I got AN ALL CAPS THANK YOU
what a generous guy
what a generous guy
KCitons
Footballguy
You've stated that you want everyone to be able to come here. (hopefully legally). When that process doesn't fit their timeline or they meet resistance, then you are okay with them breaking the law to do so. There has to be a process by which people come to this country, or are denied entry.
Does that sum up your point of view?
The Commish
Footballguy
This is the entirety of Trump's shtick and the minions lap it up. The people in this country undocumented are as high on the "criminal" scale as jaywalkers in many states. We don't go around calling jaywalkers "criminals" though now do we?
jamny
Footballguy
Yes and current behavior indicates that 60% of the money is already contracted out with what appears to be an additional 30% allocated for use once the shutdown ends. To me that appears as if CBP has put the vast amount of money given to them to use and Trump himself isn't sitting on the money doing nothing with it. Now I can't tell you if the money is being put to good use or if they need another dollar more but go right ahead and continue with what I consider a false assumption that Trump is doing nothing with the money he has been given so far. I think most people have come to realize that's just not true.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Send this tweet to your mortgage company in lieu of payment this month.
I'm sort of serious.
No. Most Americans use the term illegal immigrant. They think in binary terms as to whether someone is in America following a full legal process or not.
Whether or not following that process is a felony or misdemeanor is only going to bog down any political discussion on the topic.
Like it or not, "Trump and his minions" is the reality of who the current political opponent is for anyone who wants to get DACA passed. They may not represent the views of most Americans but were voted into power nonetheless. Deal.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Well they were voted right back out of power as soon as was possible too. Trump ain't getting #### passed in the next two years. Deal.
And Obama got nothing passed for six years before that. So here we are. Gridlock. Which will lead to even more extreme positions and politicians. Not a very sensible way to move the country forward.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Well, once you perform a coup on the Supreme Court, the country has to stop the program and reboot. Anyone willing to do that is a domestic threat. Looking at you McConnell.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Very true. I find it
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
So the formulation of US policy and law should be based on the notions of the ill-informed and ignorant, because reality just bogs down the discussion?
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Law is based on a democratic process...which is based on voting...which contrary to what Jefferson wanted is based on the entirety of the population.
The BS of whatever else you're trying to imply is what really bogs down the discussion.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
It’s been the same since 2014. Just because the sides won’t agree doesn’t mean it’s right to hijack the government. That it is is a wrong premise.
Trump is an unreliable, incompetent and unscrupulous negotiator, that’s the cause of this.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I was listening to a conservative talk show host a few years ago during the Obama years and he was explaining how gridlock is not always a bad thing. His point was that we have a system that depends on compromise to get anything done and failing that, gridlock is at least a way of keeping the status quo to prevent extremist policies.
I wonder what his position has been since Trump took office.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
I'm not saying what Trump did is right. I've said all along this is a Trump shutdown and I don't agree with it. But I also don't believe that Dems will negotiate if he opened up the government and I would imagine Trump believes that as well. This will need to be resolved before he gives in and opens it back up, imo.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
From a strict legal standpoint, a baby who has been transported across the border, is by definition NOT a criminal.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
It doesn’t need to be resolved, the shutdown does. Immigration amnesty vs border security is a totally separate issue. It’s been sitting around unresolved since 2014 at least. Let it stay that way until we the people reach a consensus.
[scooter]
Footballguy
Hopefully changed.
There has always been gridlock in the political process...our institutions have historically been able to support it. It's only when it has gone on as long as it has that it starts to erode those institutions and that's where IMO we're at now.
joffer
Footballguy
I think they’d negotiate for more border security funding. He’s still not getting a wall.
jamny
Footballguy
Agreed but I'm not talking about what should be done. Just trying to anticipate what will be done. I don't think Trump will open up the government until a deal is done.
Please don't pick and choose specific sentences from my post in the hopes of casting me in a certain light. Either read the whole thing and respond to the entirety of my point or not. I am a DACA supporter.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Part of my problem with your take is what it seems to assume... e.g. that Democratic negotiation equates to Dems giving Trump what he wants later, if not now. That's not negotiation. I have no reason to believe Democrats are unwilling to negotiate when there was a bipartisan bill where $25B was counterbalancing DACA. I'm sure something like that could again be feasible... unless Trump himself won't/can't negotiate it, which seems to be the actual barrier to negotiation.
Dedfin
Footballguy
Don't know if anyone listens to NPR's Science Friday, but 2 weeks ago he had scientists talk about how the shutdown is affecting them. Apparently several are having trouble due to NSF not being able to process and release grant funds.
https://www.sciencefriday.com/episodes/january-11-2019/
https://www.sciencefriday.com/episodes/january-11-2019/
jamny
Footballguy
I just have a hard time comparing deals that were proposed before the House changed hands to what is possible now. Yes it is an assumption on my part but I think Trump sees the shutdown as leverage that would be lost if he opened the government up and that he's willing to wait this out. Any talk of refusing to negotiate until the government opens up is pointless, imo and will just prolong this.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I'd go back to at least 2006 and the Hassert Rule killing the bipartisan agreement that had the votes in both houses and support in the White House. And it has been a subset of one side that has refused to negotiate at all ever since.
[scooter]
Footballguy
The entirety of your point about the law was wrong.
You said that all illegal immigrants are criminals.
A baby who is transported across the border is an illegal immigrant.
But, according to the laws of this country, that baby is not a criminal.
It wasn't a good analogy.
You're calling for a "reconciliation" of two viewpoints, but one of those viewpoints is based on a false pretense.
I'm not trying to cast you in any particular light. I'm just pointing out that it's not really possible to reconcile two opposing viewpoints when one of them is fatally flawed.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
I dont intend to be a smartass here, but you ask a lot of questions regarding congressional activity. Here are two sites that might help you:
senate.gov
house.gov
As to your original question: a tentative Senate calendar was released earlier this month and suggests the Senate will be out on a "State Work Period".
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/resources/pdf/2019_calendar.pdf
jamny
Footballguy
He should open the government tomorrow, allow a clean CR vote and let them debate his proposal. I think it would put him in the best light possible here and put pressure on Congress to get something done.
jamny
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I said he hasn't used all the funds allocated to him. That's all I said. Let's say that allocating them to specific projects = used. There's still 10% he hasn't used. You're trying to make more of my words than what I wrote. For what goal, I am not sure.
timschochet
Footballguy
No.
It would take me too long to summarize my position properly. But let me say that I am never OK with people breaking the law unless the law itself is immoral. In this case it is not. People who come to this country unlawfully, or remain in this country unlawfully should be punished, 100% of the time. But the level of punishment, IMO, should not necessarily include deportation.
timschochet
Footballguy
As much as I disagree with Trump’s position, the moment he opens the government it will stay open no matter what else happens. I think he gets that. He would lose all bargaining power.
jamny
Footballguy
Seems like none of those would have helped since it appears that they are voting on Thursday. Much quicker asking here.
The Commish
Footballguy
You're jumping all over the place. What point is it that you're trying to make? The post I replied to about only 6 people understanding the difference is patently false. This distinction is made time and time again. I do acknowledge that people don't WANT to discuss it in those terms and that's for the reasons I've given. That doesn't mean any of the things you say here about "most" Americans. I would suggest there is a minority of Americans (in this country that means less than 50%) that think in the terms you are suggesting. ####, my racist cousin even understands the difference and speaks about it accordingly.
I have no idea where the DACA issue comes into this and really don't have any idea what you're trying to convey in the last two lines here.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
I'll believe it when I see it.
Most likely, the votes this week, if any, will be procedural. Votes on whether or not there will be debate. Votes on whether or not amendments can be made as well as votes on whether amendments will be debated and can be amended.
McConnell didn't get his leadership position for being a dummy. Rather, he is a very gifted tactician of legislative maneuvers.
jamny
Footballguy
OK...how dare he expect more money when he has only spent 90% of what was given to him. I'm fine dropping this
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yes, that is one statement in one of the rulings.
The fact is, though, that the appeal to SCOTUS will take between six and fifteen months. After that, if it isn't overturned (again, we're saying what the courts have said, not what they will say) everything goes back down to trial (at least) in Vidal v. Nielsen in New York, where an injunction against ending DACA was entered last year, at least until trial.
I don't know about in New York, but I can't get a trial date within 4-5 months. So at best, the Trump administration would be able to begin winding down (as it tried to do) all over again in 10 months. Which would mean the "winding down" bit would be a six month wind down, beginning in at the earliest about a year and a half because courts have told him he can't wind it down to date.
He's offering three years.
I think that's not a very good deal.
Most people who are close to the issue will understand that.
But if you want to actually get DACA passed, good luck with splitting hairs on legal definitions and insinuating your opponents are disgusting baby haters. Or take them to the mat if you choose but expect a bloody and drawn out political battle.
That is the entirety of my point.
jomar
Footballguy
the issue is that if were really a crisis, shouldn't we expect that they have spent every single dollar of available resources trying to remedy the crisis? and if they haven't, why the push for even more money than what they were originally given?
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
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