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Late term abortions (1 Viewer)

Hugh Jass said:
Sigh. (Godfather 3: "I think I'm out, but they pull me back in).   I really just want to make one comment as I don't want this consume my day.  This isn't my first rodeo in the FFA. 

I hate Trump.  I hate what the Republican party stands for today.  All the corruption, all the enabling, all the xenophobia, all the horrendous awfulness of what they are responsible for down by the border, etc, etc, etc.  I have stated I can't for-see me voting Republican again.  I am 100% sure I'm voting for whomever the Dems put up in the 2020.

But goddamit, if there was anything that gives me tremendous pause with the Dems...its "But do I really want to vote FOR this!?"  The Virginia governor words on this issue, the casualness....the celebration when New York passed their recent law.  Sigh x2.  It was literally ghoulish.

Throw some of us a bone Dems.  Admit some of us who really really like and appreciate your usual stance to help the little guy, the disadvantaged, the ones without a voice could possibly extend to the most helpless and voiceless of all. ####, anymore I'd 100% appreciate the Clinton slogan of "safe, legal, and rare."  Because then at least you'd acknowledge it can be morally tricky.  That there is a grey area.  That its not an ideal.  Not #shoutyourabortion.  Listening to the Va. governor...  Jesus. 

Note to self:  "I'm not getting pulled back in, I'm not deep-sixing half my day..."
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Agreed.  I am Catholic, and was raised to be pro-life.  I attended at least a half-dozen of the annual Marches for Life in DC.  However, as I got older & realized that everything isn’t black & white, I. Realized that the idea “abortion=evil, end of story” just doesn’t work.

Now, I oppose most abortions, but I believe that it should be an available option, because there ARE times when it is necessary.  And if I have to make a political choice on that issue, I’ll side against those who say ALL abortions must be outlawed.

 
BroadwayG said:
I know a lot of people where this issue is the only thing keeping them voting Republican, and it's the only issue that has me contemplating it.
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I think this is an important point, and I appreciate what Hugh Jass wrote as well. 

I’m pro-Choice, very much so, but even I recognize that there is a distasteful “in your face” attitude among many in the Democratic Party on this issue which really antagonizes conservatives. We don’t respect their beliefs on this issue, we tell ourselves that they’re not sincere, that they just want to control women. We make up fantasies like “The Handmaids Tale” and tell each other that this is what conservatives truly want. We make them demons in our minds instead of people. 

 
timschochet said:
I can see why a raped woman, or a victim of incest, would want to get an abortion. But why wait until the last trimester to do so? That makes no sense to me, honestly. 
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I can't even imagine how difficult and stressful and confusing and traumatic such a situation would be for these women.

 
timschochet said:
I’m pro-Choice, very much so, but even I recognize that there is a distasteful “in your face” attitude among many in the Democratic Party on this issue which really antagonizes conservatives. 
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I can understand that somewhat, but there's also something to be said for destigmatizing abortion, which is what a lot of that is about.  More people need to know that their friends and relatives got abortions and consider that to have been a positive decision in their lives.  If that antagonizes conservatives, I'm not sure what the solution is. 

 
From a purely economic standpoint, abortion has saved trillions in tax payer dollars.   From a social standpoint, abortion has made our country safer.  Having the option to have an abortion has freed up tens of millions of women to pursue career opportunities, educational opportunities, and other life opportunities that they may not have had were they forced to birth a child during their teen years.  There are so many positive economic and social benefits of abortion that it would take one hours to enumerate them all. 

 
Dooook said:
From a purely economic standpoint, abortion has saved trillions in tax payer dollars.   From a social standpoint, abortion has made our country safer.  Having the option to have an abortion has freed up tens of millions of women to pursue career opportunities, educational opportunities, and other life opportunities that they may not have had were they forced to birth a child during their teen years.  There are so many positive economic and social benefits of abortion that it would take one hours to enumerate them all. 
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In terms of late term abortions, it seems to me that these comments are as irrelevant as Shader’s. 

 
timschochet said:
Very much in the news with Virginia Governor Northam’s comments, President Trump’s response, public reaction, etc:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/va-gov-faces-backlash-for-comments-on-controversial-third-trimester-abortion-bill.amp

This is obviously a very touchy issue. Interested to learn what people think. Obviously if you believe that abortion is murder in general you’re not going to believe that a late term abortion is acceptable. But if you’re a pro-choice person, so late term abortions trouble you? Are you willing to let women and doctors make this decision or should there be laws that prohibit it? 
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The only reason these should be legal is so that doctors and patients can make important decisions regarding medical treatment in emergent or catastrophic situations.  

But they have to be legal for those reasons. 

 
unckeyherb said:
To be clear I don’t think he needs to stretch the truth or lie.  Simply stated that dems support abortion up to the day before birth.  Make them own it.  Easy.
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But that would be stretching the truth...or at least withholding a big part of the truth.

 
timschochet said:
In terms of late term abortions, it seems to me that these comments are as irrelevant as Shader’s. 
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If the late term abortion is strictly due to the health of the mother or from the child having some sort of disability, maybe so.  However, if the late term abortion is due to the fact that the mother has an overwhelming sense of woe that the birth of this child will effectively end any opportunity she has of enjoyment in life, then, no, it is relevant.  There is of course always an option for adoption for these ladies, but there could be a great deal of trauma brought on by this as well...  Therefore, if the mother determines that it is in her best interest to abort the child, at any point, that should be her option. 

 
Juxtatarot said:
Oh, Tiller did them for more than just medical reasons.  From the article:
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Sorry, didn’t mean to imply he didn’t.  For me, you have two extremes - it’s always right, it’s always wrong and then you have the large majority of people that are left.  The discussion devolves because for that large majority that is left it is not a binary decision like the two extremes consider it to be.  

I think the most obvious way to have a productive conversation is to do two things:

1. similar to what Tim is saying, take the focus away for the two extreme positions and just assume those people have their mind made up

2. Further break the discussion down in to late term for health reasons and for other reasons.  Some may even decide its worthwhile to lump mental health in with health or even make it a 3rd grouping.  And I recognize that even within those groupings that the opinions are on a spectrum - eg - one person may consider Downs a health reason to abort while someone else does not.  

I was hoping to help frame the discussion to make it productive.

 
Dooook said:
If the late term abortion is strictly due to the health of the mother or from the child having some sort of disability, maybe so.  However, if the late term abortion is due to the fact that the mother has an overwhelming sense of woe that the birth of this child will effectively end any opportunity she has of enjoyment in life, then, no, it is relevant.  There is of course always an option for adoption for these ladies, but there could be a great deal of trauma brought on by this as well...  Therefore, if the mother determines that it is in her best interest to abort the child, at any point, that should be her option. 
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As I wrote, while I agree with you that this position should be legal, I don’t find it moral. From a moral standpoint, if you’re going to have an abortion in the 3rd trimester, it had better be for medical reasons or I’ve got a real problem with it. 

 
timschochet said:
This has always been close to my position legally. But morally I would have a problem with late term abortions if they were performed for reasons other than emergency or the physical  health of the mother. 

For instance, in the article on Tiller just posted, it said that women who were the victims of rape and incest had been among his patients. I can see why a raped woman, or a victim of incest, would want to get an abortion. But why wait until the last trimester to do so? That makes no sense to me, honestly. 
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Incest doesn’t make sense to you? Someone being raped by her father, whom she lives with, and oh by the way in some states has to get his permission to get an abortion, the first time she gets to a clinic is likely the only chance she ever had.  Regardless, yes, true “late term” abortions should be - and usually are - only used for medical reasons, when recommended by a physician. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Incest doesn’t make sense to you? Someone being raped by her father, whom she lives with, and oh by the way in some states has to get his permission to get an abortion, the first time she gets to a clinic is likely the only chance she ever had.  Regardless, yes, true “late term” abortions should be - and usually are - only used for medical reasons, when recommended by a physician. 
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Your explanation does make sense, yes. 

 
timschochet said:
As I wrote, while I agree with you that this position should be legal, I don’t find it moral. From a moral standpoint, if you’re going to have an abortion in the 3rd trimester, it had better be for medical reasons or I’ve got a real problem with it. 
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Why is it immoral, to you? 

If a child is unwanted, to the point where a person would consider going to a doctor and having that child cut/sucked out of their body, there is a high probability that the child is going to suffer in life and that from the suffering said child may actually harm others in society.  To me it is immoral to have that child, to neglect that child when it is being raised, to not offer that child resources, to not give that child the best opportunity to live a happy life and unfortunately, with many of these aborted children, the potential parent will have neither the time, resources, or care to properly rear that child.  Would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have her child and kill it later because it was cramping her lifestyle or would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have had an abortion? 

 
Dooook said:
Why is it immoral, to you? 

If a child is unwanted, to the point where a person would consider going to a doctor and having that child cut/sucked out of their body, there is a high probability that the child is going to suffer in life and that from the suffering said child may actually harm others in society.  To me it is immoral to have that child, to neglect that child when it is being raised, to not offer that child resources, to not give that child the best opportunity to live a happy life and unfortunately, with many of these aborted children, the potential parent will have neither the time, resources, or care to properly rear that child.  Would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have her child and kill it later because it was cramping her lifestyle or would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have had an abortion? 
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I don’t know the details of the Casey Anthony story. Never followed that. 

I find it immoral because in the 3rd trimester it’s nearly a full born baby. If you’re killing it for non- medical reasons, that seems wrong to me. 

 
timschochet said:
I don’t know the details of the Casey Anthony story. Never followed that. 

I find it immoral because in the 3rd trimester it’s nearly a full born baby. If you’re killing it for non- medical reasons, that seems wrong to me. 
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Don't disagree with you but have a question.  When does it become a baby or a life to you?  What is the exact point where it goes from not okay to okay?

 
unckeyherb said:
which part of what I wrote is stretching the truth
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Stating Dems support that?  That’s a big generalization and leaves out things (as I said it’s stretching or at least withholding part) like what instances and how many are actually supporting it.

 
unckeyherb said:
Yep, he is going to knock this one out of the park in his SOTU address.  He'll put it on dems in the chamber and address them directly, making them own it, and it will be a talking point for the next two years.

Full disclosure, I am pro-choice, but I'd be lying if I said I don't find my position morally challenged and very difficult to quantify adequately.  
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he won't knock anything out of the park.  he'll sound like an uninformed buffoon, as always

 
Dooook said:
Why is it immoral, to you? 

If a child is unwanted, to the point where a person would consider going to a doctor and having that child cut/sucked out of their body, there is a high probability that the child is going to suffer in life and that from the suffering said child may actually harm others in society.  To me it is immoral to have that child, to neglect that child when it is being raised, to not offer that child resources, to not give that child the best opportunity to live a happy life and unfortunately, with many of these aborted children, the potential parent will have neither the time, resources, or care to properly rear that child.  Would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have her child and kill it later because it was cramping her lifestyle or would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have had an abortion? 
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I think this is where the adoption response comes into play.  You are assuming that a child that is unwanted prior to birth will potentially be a harm to society.  That seems like a long jump and the end result certainly doesn't give the child much in the way of options.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Don't disagree with you but have a question.  When does it become a baby or a life to you?  What is the exact point where it goes from not okay to okay?
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And here is the rub...  Ultimately, given time, that baby who one is okay with offing in the first 6 weeks will develop into that third trimester baby.  Ultimately whether the child is aborted in the first or third trimester the result is the same, a life is terminated.  And if this issue does boil down to a matter of development or sentience, you open a whole new can of worms with regard to mentally disabled babies.

 
sho nuff said:
Stating Dems support that?  That’s a big generalization and leaves out things (as I said it’s stretching or at least withholding part) like what instances and how many are actually supporting it.
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Its not really a generalization.  I am not aware of a single democrat law maker that is against abortion, period.  I've also not heard any speak up against the newly adopted NY legislation-If there have been, I'm willing to hear it.

 
Dooook said:
From a purely economic standpoint, abortion has saved trillions in tax payer dollars.   From a social standpoint, abortion has made our country safer.  Having the option to have an abortion has freed up tens of millions of women to pursue career opportunities, educational opportunities, and other life opportunities that they may not have had were they forced to birth a child during their teen years.  There are so many positive economic and social benefits of abortion that it would take one hours to enumerate them all. 
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That's a lot of positives. Are there any negatives?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
This is what needs to be figured out.  For me, I honestly don't see much of a difference in a third trimester abortion because of an unwanted baby and murdering the child after it's born.
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I do. 

And I don’t feel like I need to figure it out. Remember that for me, we’re only talking about my personal feelings of right and wrong. If we’re talking about law I think it should be legal throughout the entire pregnancy. 

 
unckeyherb said:
Its not really a generalization.  I am not aware of a single democrat law maker that is against abortion, period.  I've also not heard any speak up against the newly adopted NY legislation-If there have been, I'm willing to hear it.
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I’m against abortion, I just don’t think it should be illegal

 
timschochet said:
I do. 

And I don’t feel like I need to figure it out. Remember that for me, we’re only talking about my personal feelings of right and wrong. If we’re talking about law I think it should be legal throughout the entire pregnancy. 
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Why?  What's the difference in terminating a pregnancy today or killing the baby tomorrow after it's born?  

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Why?  What's the difference in terminating a pregnancy today or killing the baby tomorrow after it's born?  
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The question of whether abortion should be legal overall is separate from the question of late term abortion. I could give you an answer and turn this thread into a general abortion discussion and debate which isn’t my intent. Besides, you’re a smart guy and my answer to you, which is focused on the rights of the woman, is nothing that you haven’t read before many many times I’m sure. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
You just told him his opinion is irrelevant and then say as long as everyone stays respectful.  Might wanna go get some fresh air and figure out which way you want this thread to go.
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No way I’m tipping my toes in this mine field of a thread but in regards to this post....

I don’t see anywhere where Tim said his opinion was irrelevant.  Quite the opposite imo.  Please show where he said this.  

 
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It wouldn’t surprise me if Trump brings this up next week but- I cant recall when any aspect of abortion has ever been raised in a state of the Union speech. usually it’s considered too divisive. 

But Trump is Trump...

 
timschochet said:
Did he? I don’t remember. Maybe I’m wrong. 
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From 2003:  "And in this work we must not overlook the weakest among us. I ask you to protect infants at the very hour of their birth and end the practice of partial-birth abortion."

From 2006: "There are fewer abortions in America than at any point in the last three decades, and the number of children born to teenage mothers has been falling for a dozen years in a row. "

Those were the first two to come up in google, there are likely more.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
From 2003:  "And in this work we must not overlook the weakest among us. I ask you to protect infants at the very hour of their birth and end the practice of partial-birth abortion."

From 2006: "There are fewer abortions in America than at any point in the last three decades, and the number of children born to teenage mothers has been falling for a dozen years in a row. "

Those were the first two to come up in google, there are likely more.
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OK. We’ll never mind then. 

 
timschochet said:
It wouldn’t surprise me if Trump brings this up next week but- I cant recall when any aspect of abortion has ever been raised in a state of the Union speech. usually it’s considered too divisive. 

But Trump is Trump...
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Was "safe, legal, and rare" in a SOTU?

 
dkp993 said:
No way I’m tipping my toes in this mine field of a thread but in regards to this post....

I don’t see anywhere where Tim said his opinion was irrelevant.  Quite the opposite imo.  Please show where he said this.  
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" then your opinion on late term abortion is IMO irrelevant."

 
BassNBrew said:
Well I'm certainly not eating uncooked sausage so it's not a viable pizza.

Is it a pizza when it's in the freezer at the store?
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Nope"

"it's not a pizza until it comes out of the oven" is a Seinfeld reference from an episode about pro choicers and pro lifers.

You probably had to be there

 
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