jonessed
Footballguy
Exactly. It’s not data on the student. It’s demographic data based on the general area the student lives. It’s entirely based on stereotypes and assumptions.
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SAT Implementing Social and Economic Score (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rascal
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The Commish
Footballguy
Not sure I follow. Isn't it better to understand who the exceptions to the general rule are? Thinking of a kid who might not have all the social support at home/community but at a school where that's typically not the case. It's based on stats and not individuals, sure, but those aren't stereotypes.
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GroveDiesel
Footballguy
If it's not an assumption or a stereotype, what is it? Isn't it making an assumption that living in a lower socioeconomic area has likely lead to a lower score because of decreased opportunities?
I'm not sure what else it could possibly be.
The Commish
Footballguy
I assume "it" here is the dashboard, no? The data is high level analysis of schools, economic statuses of the areas serviced by the school etc. There's no question that they CAN use it to reinforce stereotypes or assumptions, at which point they stop being those and become actual facts. The stereotype would be "in our experience, kids from X school don't have the economic resources or support at home like other schools" without having anything other than anecdotal evidence/observations. If the data collected backs that up, then it becomes the general rule understanding there are exceptions. In theory, portal would then help identify exceptions as well so fewer get lumped into the general rule when it's not appropriate.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Going back to the NFL comp, this new metric is like looking at the team stats, situation, usage, etc. We might see a WR from Maryland and say oh his production wasn’t that good but if look at it in the context of their anemic offense, they actually outperformed expectations. Or an OSU WR we might say they had a low YPC but if we look at the offense it is because all OSU does is throw quick passes so we can try to project in a better role, that WR has more potential.
We do this all the time with fantasy football so I don’t see why colleges wouldn’t be interested in doing it with students.
We do this all the time with fantasy football so I don’t see why colleges wouldn’t be interested in doing it with students.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
As i said in the other thread. Schools were already doing this. Now they just have third party cover.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Great idea imo. It's not replacing the test, but it is giving universities that care to (which will not be all universities) additional tools to help them contextualize test scores and put a greater focus on achievement relative to circumstance.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The SAT/ACT is like the combine where if you train for it, hire special tutors familiar with the test, you can improve by a lot. My wife worked for Princeton Review doing ACT prep in college. It costs over $1000 a class for a kid by but my wife said the average kid would improve 3-5 points which is big for the ACT. None of what she taught in the course was academics. It was all how to beat the test.
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Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
Now I want to hear what they’re doing to curb abuse of the additional time evaluations.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I read this a lot, but what does this really mean? Obviously in a timed environment with multiple choice format there are some basic strategies to follow, but those are mostly pretty simple to teach. I always thought the biggest benefit to prep courses was that it exposed you to the test via practice sections and it usually made students aware of areas that they were very weak in, thus improving these areas and making the biggest score impact.
Maybe in the olden days of hand generated tests there were more opportunities for human tendencies to be picked up on and exploited, but I don't think that is the case anymore and even if exploitable most likely account for a very small difference that would take more time to teach than it would be worth.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
If you could I would appreciate it. It is something I read a lot, but it is seldom actually discussed. I never took a prep class, but my high school teachers all devoted at least a little time discussing basic strategies(time mgmt, guessing, etc). Pretty basic stuff. I hear people complain all the time that teachers are teaching to the test, so I would think that test strategies aren't already brought up somewhat regularly. Although all the teachers I know never complain about this. The biggest complaint I hear from them is annoying parents.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I will ask her. I know one I use with math is using the answer options to work backwards. You might not know how to solve an equation but if there are 4 options you can just plug them in to see what the correct solution is. It works for systems of equations as well. So if the options are provided, complex equations or systems can be solved without any real understanding of how to actually do it. That can be done with lots of math.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Why do they even allow these?
Instead of submitting something to get extra time on the SAT shouldnt they have to submit something to the university instead?
bigbottom
Footballguy
It’s an accommodation for individuals with bona fide learning disabilities. Someone with dyslexia for example needs additional time to be able to read and comprehend the passages and questions. I don’t take issue with that at all. But there appears to be rampant abuse of the system with kids effectively buying diagnoses in high school in order to get extra time on the test. For the ACT in particular, this is a huge advantage as the challenge with ACT is the volume and being able to finish in the allotted time. The Gangster Capitalism podcast discussed this topic, as well as the related topic of how getting the extra time accommodation allowed students to take the test at private facilities where the cheating occurred in the Varsity Blues scandal. There are doctors who are known as go to doctors for purposes of getting a diagnosis in high school so that the student can apply for extra time on the SAT or ACT. Anecdotally, I have a co-worker with a child at an elite private school. There are eight students in her kid’s close group of friends. Of those 8 students, 6 got extra time on the ACT (my co-worker’s child was not one of them). These six students have no known history of a childhood learning disability and are top students getting good grades at an elite private school. One of the students gets twice as much time to take the ACT, and only takes one section per day. So for the 4 sections of the ACT, this student gets double time and takes one section on Saturday, one section on Sunday, the third section on the following Saturday, and the final section on Sunday. That is a HUGE advantage if the student doesn’t otherwise have a learning disability. There was some data presented in the podcast that private schools on average have a much higher rate of students being approved for extra time than public schools. And the SAT and ACT does not report to the universities whether or not the student had extra time. I’m okay with that as well, so long as the abuse is addressed.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
This issue is only happening with these wealthy kids who are likely getting an elite education to begin with. Every kid I have ever seen getting extended time definitely needed it (and pretty much always still scored very low).
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This is kind of my point. Shouldnt they just have a test. If some kids cant do well on the test for bona fide learning disabilities shouldnt the university be making judgment calls on that?
So instead of making up ways to allow the kid with a learning disability to score better on a test, you basically accept that the score was bad because of a learning disability and you weigh that individuals coursework instead.
Just seems like a very silly way to do this as it stands now and it is open to abuse.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The kids who legit use the accommodations are almost never going to a college that looks at test scores. These are community college/trade school/job training students 80+% of the time. They are just taking the ACT/SAT because their State mandates every kid take it.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Right, and the fact that this abuse is being perpetrated by these privileged kids makes it worse, not better. That was the very point made by the podcast I mentioned, namely that the percentage of kids being granted extra time at private college prep schools was demonstrably higher than at public schools. So not only do you have kids who can afford private school and prep courses and paid private tutors, they also get to cheat the system to get testing accommodations.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Maybe but there are lots of legal shenanigans going on to ensure wealthy kids have every opportunity
bigbottom
Footballguy
Right. What needs to happen is that College Board and these testing agencies need to have a better process for vetting accommodation requests.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I also can’t imagine that this is correct. Kids with dyslexia or ADD or ADHD or other learning disabilities aren’t going to four-year colleges? Just in my small circle, I know a number of kids with legit issues (have been diagnosed since a young age and on meds or in treatment or therapy) who have legitimately obtained extra time and are going to (or already in) college. I can’t imagine that my experience is an outlier.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
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bigbottom
Footballguy
You are correct that the average score of students with additional time is lower than the average score of kids taking the standard test, an indication that most of the accommodations are legit. Abuse is still significant though.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The only issue is that it could cause some problems for kids who legit need it. How is College Board supposed to determine which doctors diagnosis
bigbottom
Footballguy
As has been discussed in the college admissions thread, more and more colleges are going test optional, or not considering standardized tests at all. In the coming years, the SAT and ACT could become mostly irrelevant.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah, for every 1 kid who has ADHD, gets extra time,scores a 28 and gets into their local public 4 year there are like 10 kids who have ADHD/SLD and score a 14.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Kind of confused why you would still want kids to be able to get more time if you feel the kids that do legit need more time do poorly on it anyway? Doesn't that make them look worse?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Human dignity. Give them a fighting chance, make them feel comfortable while they have to go through the embarrassing procedure of it all.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Would you advocate for a policy of rather than getting extended time based on a disability, they simply get to opt out and still apply at places that require the test?Ilov80s said:
Giving them extra time only to have them still fail doesn't sound like it would make it an easier pill to swallow. I Think I actually would feel way worse if I bombed a test that I was given special accommodations for, but I admit since I am a FBG (therefore a multi-millionaire with an IQ above 180 and an 11 inch penis) I cant really relate.
rockaction
Footballguy
Interesting discussion. I have studied for the LSAT using Kaplan and was offered a position to teach the test. They certainly do teach exactly to the test. It's not so much that they show you how to "beat it," but rather, they identify logical patterns and constructs within the test that will raise your score significantly. I know that through sheer work and the Kaplan couse, I gained at least ten points, if not more. Repetition and explanation are the best way to get ready for the standardized examinations.
It was funny, I cancelled my first test score but could identify the ungraded trial portion of the test when it was done (they score four out of five sections, with one being an experimental test question period) because I was so familiar with how the questions should be and what they should be testing and how it should be worded.
Having disposable income to do that puts one at a huge, can't-be-overrated advantage over those who cannot afford or do not choose to take the prep course.
It was funny, I cancelled my first test score but could identify the ungraded trial portion of the test when it was done (they score four out of five sections, with one being an experimental test question period) because I was so familiar with how the questions should be and what they should be testing and how it should be worded.
Having disposable income to do that puts one at a huge, can't-be-overrated advantage over those who cannot afford or do not choose to take the prep course.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Of cousre. I don't think everyone should have to take the test. Lobbyists from the testing companies disagree though.
Perhaps, they have the choice. They don't have to have the accommodations. Maybe getting extra time and scoring a 15 is worse than taking it in the normal time and getting a 11? I don't know but we give sudents and parents the the choice and they almost always want it.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I had no idea kids were required to take the SAT or ACT in some states. Here's a listing of the states that do have such a requirement (as of 2016-2017):Ilov80s said:
https://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/states-require-students-take-sat-or-act.html
WDIK2
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
That's great. It took me a little more time than you, then. I had to know the logical equivalencies and fallacies, how to properly infer from implicit guideposts, how to set up and frame the logic games, etc.
Good stuff.
rockaction
Footballguy
Cool. I mean, I wouldn't have bombed it, but I don't think I would have approached a similar level if I hadn't had the course that my folks were willing to pay for. Not everybody has that advantage, as you note. This isn't an argument one way or the other about the SAT dropping or instituting the sociopolitical score they did; it was simply tangential to the discussion ilov, parasaurolophous, and bigbottom were having.
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