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As another student dies, it’s time to ban fraternity/sorority hazing. It’s stupid and dangerous. (1 Viewer)

I was in high school when guys would put “liquid heat” gel in the freshmen’s underwear for marching band initiation. I know it’s a scene from Revenge of the Nerds, but we had guys doing this too back in the 80’s. 

 
bigbottom said:
Hazing deaths are tragic, no doubt. But it’s really difficult to police in as broad-based a manner as you had initially suggested, particularly when there are things that would be considered hazing that happen all the time in sports, the military, and with kids in college even outside the fraternity/sorority environment. Candidly, I would be happy if we could just get rid of any form of forced or coerced alcohol consumption. Alcohol-related hazing is the biggest cause of hazing death by a huge margin I believe. I say let’s focus on that. 
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Forced yes. Coerced? To me that is way too gray of an area. I mean pretty much all drinking games are coerced drinking. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Forced yes. Coerced? To me that is way too gray of an area. I mean pretty much all drinking games are coerced drinking. 
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When you say yes to forced, what precisely do you mean?  Do you mean actually physically holding their mouths open and pouring the liquid down their throats?  If you can envision something broader than that (e.g., you can't come out of the room until you finish this bottle of vodka, you won't be initiated until you do 20 shots, etc.), that's what I mean by coerced.

 
bigbottom said:
When you say yes to forced, what precisely do you mean?  Do you mean actually physically holding their mouths open and pouring the liquid down their throats?  If you can envision something broader than that (e.g., you can't come out of the room until you finish this bottle of vodka, you won't be initiated until you do 20 shots, etc.), that's what I mean by coerced.
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I think locking somebody in a room until they drink something should be actionable in the eyes of the law. I think telling them they cant be in the fraternity unless they drink 20 shots shouldn't be. 

Morally I have a different opinion.  

 
Arizona Ron said:
Why people still care about fraternities and sororities is beyond me.   When I went to college, the big selling point was to maintain connections after college to get jobs.  We have Facebook, LinkedIn, etc., there's plenty of ways to develop a circle of contacts. 
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From what I recall of college, it was possible to make friends without paying for it. :shrug:

 
Unfortunately these hazing tragedies have been going on forever - we just know about them more now due to social media.

For every one of these incidents, there are tons of fraternities/sororities that don't haze and actually do a lot of charitable work and social justice. My son joined a fraternity about a month ago - thankfully no hazing nor a culture of hazing at his school. But I had to talk many times to him during the pledge process to ensure that he wasn't being subject to things like forcible drinking. 

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
I think that and prohibiting sleep deprivation as an initiation rite would pretty much cover things.  Bad decisions ensue from sleep deprivation and most of the frats with which I was familiar (I did not pledge or join any myself) had a hazing week where the went to great efforts to deprive their pledges from meaningful sleep.  
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I joined a frat my frosh year at UK. During initiation week, I got no sleep. 

Yeah, they would allow maybe 3 hours / night, but as a ragin' insomaniac, I slept 0. They would also allow us bong hits & booze. It was really messy - made the sleep potential worse. 

So, after 2 or so days, I was a walkin' dreamer. More powerful than the blotter goin' round at the time. 

Once over, we were welcomed as full bros. My 1st job - as a true brother, was to drive about 8 of us, in my pickup truck to Red River Gorge for a night of hiking along trails bordering 50 - 100 foot cliff drop offs. 

As the driver, I was limited to alcohol & weed. Everyone else was eatin' shrooms. Really careful - heh! 

So, after hiking for a few hours, we stopped at Half Moon Arch to light a few doobies and pass a bottle of Maker's Mark. It was around 2 am - best guess. 

I sat down - took a few tokes & shots. I felt a little dizzy, so, I went to lean back onto my elbow to relax a little. 

Unfortunately, I was closer to the edge than I knew. The darkness was deceptive - and - my elbow kept goin' down & down. The rest of my body soon followed. 

I fell off a spot 80 feet above the valley floor. 

According to my trippin' brothers, I just fell into black - no sound what so ever. Gawd, I do - and did - feel bad for them. I can't imagine watchin' a friend dissappear like that while havin' a head full of fungus. 

Sooo - as I fell, I only recall thinkin' one thing - F! I'm goin' fast! 

Luckily, I hit some medium sized tree branches - big enuff to slow me some - small enuff to do no real damage. 

After that, I plopped down on a slope - like an Eval Kneival landin' ramp. I rag dolled (from bein' so drunk) down a bit more, until I came to a rest on a ledge. 

I think I was passed out for a while. But, since everyone but me was trippin', time was not in existence. 

All I recall, is hearin' an echo. 

MoCS... MoCS... Etc... 

I finally answered - IMA DOWN HERE! 

The reply - honest:

ARE YOU ALIVE?!? 

Heh - shrooms are da best. 

So, my bros spent about 2 hours hikin to the valley floor. They had the only flashlight - thus, I waited on my ledge...not knowin' how far up I still was. 

When they finally reached me, it turns out I was only bout 8 feet off the ground.

Sooo, I hopped down - twisted my ankle - fell - bruised my hip. These were my only injuries. 

By this time, some guys were startin' to come down, thus, they fed me some shrooms & plopped me in the back of my pickup. They drove me back to Lexington - and I saw a doc a few days later. 

According to him, if I weren't drunk, I prolly would have been severely injured or dead. The ragdollin' really helped. 

I say, if I weren't drunk, I never woulda fell. 

He said, Ha! 

Good times....??? 

 
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
I joined a frat my frosh year at UK. During initiation week, I got no sleep. 

Yeah, they would allow maybe 3 hours / night, but as a ragin' insomaniac, I slept 0. They would also allow us bong hits & booze. It was really messy - made the sleep potential worse. 

So, after 2 or so days, I was a walkin' dreamer. More powerful than the blotter goin' round at the time. 

Once over, we were welcomed as full bros. My 1st job - as a true brother, was to drive about 8 of us, in my pickup truck to Red River Gorge for a night of hiking along trails bordering 50 - 100 foot cliff drop offs. 

As the driver, I was limited to alcohol & weed. Everyone else was eatin' shrooms. Really careful - heh! 

So, after hiking for a few hours, we stopped at Half Moon Arch to light a few doobies and pass a bottle of Maker's Mark. It was around 2 am - best guess. 

I sat down - took a few tokes & shots. I felt a little dizzy, so, I went to lean back onto my elbow to relax a little. 

Unfortunately, I was closer to the edge than I knew. The darkness was deceptive - and - my elbow kept goin' down & down. The rest of my body soon followed. 

I fell off a spot 80 feet above the valley floor. 

According to my trippin' brothers, I just fell into black - no sound what so ever. Gawd, I do - and did - feel bad for them. I can't imagine watchin' a friend dissappear like that while havin' a head full of fungus. 

Sooo - as I fell, I only recall thinkin' one thing - F! I'm goin' fast! 

Luckily, I hit some medium sized tree branches - big enuff to slow me some - small enuff to do no real damage. 

After that, I plopped down on a slope - like an Eval Kneival landin' ramp. I rag dolled (from bein' so drunk) down a bit more, until I came to a rest on a ledge. 

I think I was passed out for a while. But, since everyone but me was trippin', time was not in existence. 

All I recall, is hearin' an echo. 

MoCS... MoCS... Etc... 

I finally answered - IMA DOWN HERE! 

The reply - honest:

ARE YOU ALIVE?!? 

Heh - shrooms are da best. 

So, my bros spent about 2 hours hikin to the valley floor. They had the only flashlight - thus, I waited on my ledge...not knowin' how far up I still was. 

When they finally reached me, it turns out I was only bout 8 feet off the ground.

Sooo, I hopped down - twisted my ankle - fell - bruised my hip. These were my only injuries. 

By this time, some guys were startin' to come down, thus, they fed me some shrooms & plopped me in the back of my pickup. They drove me back to Lexington - and I saw a doc a few days later. 

According to him, if I weren't drunk, I prolly would have been severely injured or dead. The ragdollin' really helped. 

I say, if I weren't drunk, I never woulda fell. 

He said, Ha! 

Good times....??? 
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I can relate more than you may know.  Glad you made it through.  Oh, and I love the question "are you alive?"  One wonders what they would have done had you sarcastically answered "No". 

 
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Man of Constant Sorrow said:
Dammit! 

That's gooooood! 

I just ain't quick witted nuff... 

:kicksrock:
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I am glad you didn't, depending on how experienced they were with intoxicants of a psychedelic nature they may have freaked out, decided you were indeed dead, beat a hasty retreat and left you there, then who knows the outcome.  Sure, someone would have sussed it out eventually, but you could have had a longer night than you did.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I am glad you didn't, depending on how experienced they were with intoxicants of a psychedelic nature they may have freaked out, decided you were indeed dead, beat a hasty retreat and left you there, then who knows the outcome.  Sure, someone would have sussed it out eventually, but you could have had a longer night than you did.
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Heh. That's kinda funny cause part of our conversation - that I cut for brevity - was that I initially asked them to toss me down a sleepin' bag and wait till sun up to find me. It was late fall - cold. 

Like they coulda actually placed that bag - from 72 feet up - in pitch black - onto a 5x8 ledge - under a tree canopy - whilst drunk, high & shroomin'. Hah! 

They turned out ta be lots wiser than I; as a few of em were very experienced psychonauts - thank Lordy. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
I think locking somebody in a room until they drink something should be actionable in the eyes of the law. I think telling them they cant be in the fraternity unless they drink 20 shots shouldn't be. 

Morally I have a different opinion.  
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I'm no lawyer but that first example strikes me as actionable in the eyes of the law. And both would be by the school.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
which one?
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Alpha Tau Omega = we were the druggies, lbgt's, weirdos & whatnot. 

I think it got onto the double secret probation list & booted a few years later. Not sure, tho. 

As I told in GM's Everthing, I trekked back to Louisville (and U of L eventually) late spring semester to avoid flunkin' out. 

Honestly, I learned my lesson about schoolin'. Worked school hard, worked full time job as well & turned down many frat invites at UL - but kept up my psychonaut'in until my mid 30's. 

Prolly wasn't good for my bipolar - no - definitely wasn't good for it, but - whattaya'gonna do now? 

Actually, I'm finally off all psych meds & grass is my only true vice now - tho all my docs agree that it is helping me now with both my bipolar and diabetes. Many other docs may disagree - but - I'm happy, functional & secure as a semi-retired 50 yo. 

Life is fun. No real complaints - Sorrow is satisfyin'. 

🙂

 
This is a great example of how our world works now.

(Something bad happens)

People: I'm so outraged!  We need to do something!  I don't know what.  And I don't know exactly how.  And I'm not even sure I understand the complexities of the issue.  But we need to do something... NOW!!!!  :rant:

 
TheIronSheik said:
This is a great example of how our world works now.

(Something bad happens)

People: I'm so outraged!  We need to do something!  I don't know what.  And I don't know exactly how.  And I'm not even sure I understand the complexities of the issue.  But we need to do something... NOW!!!!  :rant:
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followed by 130,000 posts

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I can relate more than you may know.  Glad you made it through.  Oh, and I love the question "are you alive?"  One wonders what they would have done had you sarcastically answered "No". 
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XO on my old boat (half Major Winchester, half Major Burns type of guy) addressing the crew, "Raise your hand if you can't hear me."  Everybody raised their hand.

 
parasaurolophus said:
I think locking somebody in a room until they drink something should be actionable in the eyes of the law. I think telling them they cant be in the fraternity unless they drink 20 shots shouldn't be. 

Morally I have a different opinion.  
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Nobody's kidnapped. I'm sure in most cases you can leave, but at that point you're not going to be joining that fraternity.

They turn up the heat slowly on their pledges. It's easy at first, and once you've invested a couple months, that's when they start putting you through the wringer. Because they know that it's unlikely you'll quit.

 
zamboni said:
Unfortunately these hazing tragedies have been going on forever - we just know about them more now due to social media.

For every one of these incidents, there are tons of fraternities/sororities that don't haze and actually do a lot of charitable work and social justice. My son joined a fraternity about a month ago - thankfully no hazing nor a culture of hazing at his school. But I had to talk many times to him during the pledge process to ensure that he wasn't being subject to things like forcible drinking. 
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Hopefully your kid is being honest with you, a lot of kids will be asked the same question and aren't going to admit to being hazed. Frats don't want people knowing about this, for obvious reasons.

BTW, plenty of non-exclusive groups that don't murder their own with alcohol do social justice/charity work on college campuses. And are free to join!

 
Good Posting Judge said:
... And are free to join!
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I can't speak for other frats or other times, but, one of the major reasons I joined my frat, was that it saved me significant money. 

As an out-of-towner, I was paying loads more to stay in campus housing & eating campus food (required for those living on campus even if you chose to eat elsewhere) - than I paid for frat housing & food & membership fees. 

Of course, all the money I saved went to drugs & booze - which I bought from the frat....hmmmm 🤔

 
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
I joined a frat my frosh year at UK. During initiation week, I got no sleep. 

Yeah, they would allow maybe 3 hours / night, but as a ragin' insomaniac, I slept 0. They would also allow us bong hits & booze. It was really messy - made the sleep potential worse. 
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At my alma mater, a sorority has been shut down for a few years due to hazing, and it had to do with no sleep. During the end of "hell week" four pledges were in a car, and the driver fell asleep behind the wheel and crashed into a tree. Two of the pledges died, and the chapter and some of the sorority sisters got sued or are being sued for hazing, because the lack of sleep during hell week directly caused the crash. Four fraternities last year were also closed down for four years for alcohol and hazing violations.

 
simey said:
At my alma mater, a sorority has been shut down for a few years due to hazing, and it had to do with no sleep. During the end of "hell week" four pledges were in a car, and the driver fell asleep behind the wheel and crashed into a tree. Two of the pledges died, and the chapter and some of the sorority sisters got sued or are being sued for hazing, because the lack of sleep during hell week directly caused the crash. Four fraternities last year were also closed down for four years for alcohol and hazing violations.
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Hey simey - thnx for sharing that. 

As I've gotten older, I am finally accepting the importance of quality sleep. Lack of it, is the cause of my diabetes. 

And that - is a mighty small price to pay, compared to what you described. 

And, the alcohol - sheesh - my truck had nine intoxicated idiots in it - 6 in the bed. 

Damn. That scares the F out of me now to even think about. 

I have no answers, but I learned some lessons. 

😎

 
Tom Skerritt said:
I was in high school when guys would put “liquid heat” gel in the freshmen’s underwear for marching band initiation. I know it’s a scene from Revenge of the Nerds, but we had guys doing this too back in the 80’s. 
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Our high school football team(late 80's) seniors paddled sophomores as initiation during the 2 weeks away at camp.

 
IC FBGCav said:
I would rather focus on stopping high school shootings but to each their own posty.   Let's all get outraged at this.
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When I first read this I kinda got snarky about it but the more I think about it, Cav's right. This stuff is tragic and I feel for the parents but with the amount of money these universities are taking in, I feel it's incumbent upon them to focus their attention on this and just do ####### better. I went to college, I joined a frat (not national), I got hazed and I lived. Would I want my daughter who is getting ready to start her freshman year to do that? No but I'm not naive enough to think she isn't going to go to parties and get hangovers. We'll be paying upwards of $50,000 over the next 4 years, I don't think it's too much to ask that the school exercise some common sense and do what's right. Not everything requires government intervention.

The kids not having the opportunity to even make the decision if they want to go to college because they are already dead seems much more of an issue to me. Sadly I don't think there is a good answer to stopping either without taking away some serious fundamental rights of individuals which isn't happening anytime soon.

 
beer 30 said:
Sadly I don't think there is a good answer to stopping either without taking away some serious fundamental rights of individuals which isn't happening anytime soon.
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C'mon man, this is BS. Fraternities are banned from campuses all the time on an individual basis, and the world keeps turning just fine. There are plenty of types of groups that you can't form/join at a university. :shrug:

 
Good Posting Judge said:
C'mon man, this is BS. Fraternities are banned from campuses all the time on an individual basis, and the world keeps turning just fine. There are plenty of types of groups that you can't form/join at a university. :shrug:
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Sure but are you going to ban ALL of them? Because if you really want to end this hazing stuff, that's what it's going to take.

 
IC FBGCav said:
So you join a frat or any other organization just for friends.  Interesting will you please elaborate.
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Any other organization? Didn't realize that there was a huge issue with hazing deaths at the local Elks Lodge. I don't remember any articles about alcohol poisoning with MENSA. Thank you for opening my eyes to this epidemic.

 
chet said:
Typical leftist response and attitude.  Couldn't have written it better myself.
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A typical leftist response would be far more firm than mine was. Leftists, like rightists, usually know exactly what they want to have happen and they know they’re 100% right at all times. My uncertainly is not typical of either extreme. 

 
I pledged pike, went through whole semester of hazing, went through hell week.  Didn't show up for the initiation.

I don't know if I feel dumber for allowing myself to get in some of those situations, or smarter for being able to walk away after sticking through it.

 
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belljr said:
If anything we've gotten better AT not doing it.

Hazing was way worse in the 80s early 90s imo
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According to the study linked earlier in the thread, of the 200 hazing deaths that have occurred in the last 130 years, 40 have happened since 2007.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Well, there were quaaludes, rap hadn't really started, Danskins and lack of bras accentuated and launched the nipple look, chicks had huge forest-like muffs, there were phone booths on every city block and the Soviet Union was scary to those not constantly intoxicated, as was I.
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All the old-timers I know refer to them as "furburgers".

 
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