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Government Response To The Coronavirus (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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jm192
Footballguy
This is absurd to blame on Trump.
If you need to be told to ask your doctor before eating your fish tank cleaner--you've got bigger problems than Trump or COVID-19.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I am not disputing this but I am trying to figure it out. Until we have a vaccine or very effective means of testing and treating the virus all we are doing by sheltering in place is flattening the curve and buying time. Now I agree with this approach and we should have done it sooner (heck there are still states that haven't) but I am not sure that weeks ago we could have identified, let alone isolated all of the cases.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Its not blaming Trump...but a sign of how dangerous his rhetoric is when you know stupid people like that guy are listening. The types that don't listen to a doctor or science but believe the words of POTUS.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
We have probably gone too hard in on capitalism. The movie Network covers the conversion of TV news from a public good but financial loser to a new center of profit and with it the transition from news to ranting and raving editorialists.
It is just as absurd for him to get up in front of everyone pretending the answers are right in front of us, ready to use immediately just because he wants to be the one who fixed everything. He needs to step aside and let the experts take center stage in informing the public.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Trump's fault? No. Does he has a responsibility to share accurate information? Yes. Our President should not be spreading false information.
jm192
Footballguy
Trump never said "your fish cleaner is safe to eat." The rhetoric wasn't "You've all probably got some life-saving medicine in your house if you have fish."
Any reasonable person knows you have to get medical treatments from your doctors.
If Obama said this medicine shows promise and someone drank fish cleaner--I wouldn't blame Obama.
jm192
Footballguy
Sure.
Does the MSM and the rest of the world as well? Yes.
And "Man dies after drinking fish cleaner cuz Orange Man told him to" just furthers the OMB narrative.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
The media doesn't help either but that wasn't really the point. If you want to deflect blame away from Trump and to the media then go ahead. The media has responsibility, just as our President does.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
It's a 3 way issue. Trump needs to be careful about discussing medical things because he has a tendency to wing it, make things up, misspeak and exaggerate. It's best he not get into medical details as a significant part of this country takes what he says as gospel and would listen to him over the CDC. The media didn't need to talk about as much as they did or point out to people this was an ingredient in fish tank cleaner. And most importantly, the people who ingested the fish tank cleaner made a very poor decision that hopefully everyone can learn from. Talk to a doctor before trying to self-medicate and don't use products outside of their intended use. This should be learned as a child but perhaps many need a refresher.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Very true but that's the world we live in. Our words matter because of the ignorance in the world. It's why we need warnings on coffee saying they are hot. Just said he loved the poorly educated so he's going to have to put up with them when they believe every word he says.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I wish the GOP would send someone out to challenge Trump, anyone, maybe even a puppet that sits in a chair. I don't think Joe Biden is the answer either, but in times like these, we need someone who isn't so divisive. How he uses these press conferences as rallying calls, how he touts the greatest economy ever, how he insults Mitt Romney when he quarantines... I mean this list can go on and on, how does anyone think this is the right guy to handle this crisis? Greatest economy ever, I'm currently worried about my job 
Like at least acknowledge the situation we're in, #### is pretty ####ed up right now.
I've always hated Cuomo, but watching his press conferences and watching Trumps, they're night and day; one appears to be shooting facts and well spoken, the other appears to be a disheveled mess who can't speak 3 sentences without wheezing while spitting vitriol.
And the fact that he relies on his gut over scientists who have studied epidemiology is truly how one could define a dolt.
While my hope remains strong, the realist deep down in me is quite worried!
Like at least acknowledge the situation we're in, #### is pretty ####ed up right now.I've always hated Cuomo, but watching his press conferences and watching Trumps, they're night and day; one appears to be shooting facts and well spoken, the other appears to be a disheveled mess who can't speak 3 sentences without wheezing while spitting vitriol.
And the fact that he relies on his gut over scientists who have studied epidemiology is truly how one could define a dolt.
While my hope remains strong, the realist deep down in me is quite worried!
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Someone already addressed this same point of "Trump never said".
The rhetoric was pumping up chloroquine as some great thing (despite the doctors and experts pushing back on that).
Dumb people hear that and don't worry about the doctor...
Again...I and others are not blaming Trump...the guy who drank/took the stuff is a fool. But its a clear indication that Trump needs to chose his own words much better and that some of his rhetoric is dangerous. Im more worried about the possibilities we saw early on of shortages for people who actually need the drug for things like Lupus.
And it's not just fish tank cleaner. I know pharmacists who have been taking orders from doctors prescribing this drug for healthy people (usually probably family members) in case they get Covid-19.
Stupid on the doctors - but they weren't doing this just hearing anecdotals from France. The orders started after Trump made his statement touting it.
Stupid on the doctors - but they weren't doing this just hearing anecdotals from France. The orders started after Trump made his statement touting it.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
RnR
Footballguy
This is a perfect example of the scenario where Trump can't win with you guys.
If he shines some optimism on trying to use some already approved drugs to help our patients: IRRESPONSIBLE. JUST LET THE DOCTORS TALK.
If he doesn't provide details on how we're trying to find out-of-the-box solutions to fight this disease and instead lets the doctors do all the talking: WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP?
There is a negative spin script for every scenario. Many news outlets use it (hello, Mr. Fish Tank Man). People in this forum use it. And you wonder why those of us who don't have a political "team" in this pandemic battle roll our eyes.
If he shines some optimism on trying to use some already approved drugs to help our patients: IRRESPONSIBLE. JUST LET THE DOCTORS TALK.
If he doesn't provide details on how we're trying to find out-of-the-box solutions to fight this disease and instead lets the doctors do all the talking: WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP?
There is a negative spin script for every scenario. Many news outlets use it (hello, Mr. Fish Tank Man). People in this forum use it. And you wonder why those of us who don't have a political "team" in this pandemic battle roll our eyes.
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RnR
Footballguy
I watch it happen every day. In every news story that involves him. It is exhausting.
So your issue is with him saying he is optimistic it will help? That Gov. Cuomo wants it and will use it today? Speak to me like someone who actually has paid really close attention to what he's saying, because I have.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Cuomo put up a graphic that said it is FDA approved.
Everybody knew what he meant though so nobody ran to their computers to call him a liar.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Maybe I should have said "misleading" or "confusing" to the public. Regardless, Trump has to be careful with what he says in times like these.
RnR
Footballguy
It's only confusing or misleading because people aren't actually watching the pressers. Instead, they're watching the spin cycle highlights (from either direction) on the news stations.
If you've been paying attention, you know exactly where he stands on this drug. And you know where Dr. Fauci stands on it. It all played out in front of the camera.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
whoknew
Footballguy
Sure.
For example, here are some things he said -
Trump trumpeted that chloroquine had shown “very, very encouraging early results” and said “we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately.”
Friday, the President said, “It may work, it may not work. I feel good about it. That’s all it is. Just a feeling.”
--
That built unjustified hype. A responsible person would have said something like, "There are a couple of drug treatments we are testing. Some may show some promise. But as of yet, they have not proven either effective or safe. But we are working on testing them."
And then allow the science guys to do their thing.
Nobody would have complained about.
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Let’s breakdown the situation:
1. Some people are freaked out about COVID-19, especially if they think they are high risk.
2. No cure exists and any vaccine is a year away from being available.
3. You start googling looking for possible ways to stop this because you believe that you will die if you don’t.
4. Nothing you find online is all that promising but then you hear that the President is touting malaria drugs as being a possible game changer and he was doing it on national TV on stage with medical experts.
5. You become desperate to find these drugs because it’s your only hope. But you find out it’s not available and you’d need a prescription.
6. Every chance the President gets, he touts it as a cure or a game changer, so you start googling Chloroquine for ways to find it. Bingo! It’s in fish tank cleaner. Is it safe? No idea, but Chloroquine is Chloroquine and you think you’re going to die if you don’t get this, so you take your chances.
Trump has the most powerful position in the world but he’s using it push unproven treatments to a desperate population. Most of us know to ignore him and listen to the experts, but that’s not true of a significant chunk of of the population. I’m not talking about just Trump supporters either.
I’ve avoided this thread for several days because I believe this should be a politic free crisis. But what Trump does when he’s on that stage is incredibly dangerous and irresponsible. The media plays right into him and enhances his harm by asking him questions that gets him rambling and saying harmful things. Ask the experts questions and pretend like Trump wasn’t even there. Don’t give the crazy things he says airtime. What he does is hazardous and the media just makes it worse.
It’s about to get worse because we’re a couple days away from Trump publicly telling everyone to go back to your regular lives and attacking anyone who says otherwise. Any gains that we’ve made from this quarantine will be lost and it will make the economic hit even worse when we eventually have to start over from scratch.
RnR
Footballguy
Could you give me the specifics on which he's intentionally misleading people? To me, that requires both facts to assert it's false information and then some sort of evidence that it's being disseminated with the goal of misinforming the American people. That's a pretty big accusation.
I would agree with you on his public speaking skills. The fact that Pence handles the same pressers so well makes it stick out even worse. Also, Cuomo's pressers are very good. Kudos to him.
The Commish
Footballguy
I posted about this above and don't think it needs to be repeated. The intentional misrepresentations are problematic as well. The only person coming close to saying the bold above was a Trump supporter's wife (assume also a Trump supporter). I have yet to see any other news media making this claim. The clip of the press conference where he was talking about this is posted above as well. It was an unfiltered message delivered directly from Trump's mouth into the ears of anyone willing to listen...it was LIVE on television. Of course, I admit I don't watch our MSM, so there may be some trickery at work here that brings them into the equation, but I"m not seeing it in this instance.
RnR
Footballguy
I mean, that's a fine critique. But he has Fauci right there during that presser giving a message very similar to this:
“I think there’s this issue of trying to separate the two of us. There isn’t fundamentally a difference there,” Dr. Fauci, the director of the told CBS’s “Face the Nation” on Sunday. “He’s coming at it from a hope-layperson standpoint. I’m coming at it from a scientific standpoint.”
“I’m not disagreeing with the fact, anecdotally, they might work,” Dr. Fauci told CBS. “But my job is to prove definitely from a scientific standpoint that they do work.”
I think you and I are probably smart enough to discern what this means: Trump gonna Trump, but there are some things we're going to try soon and they have a chance at being somewhat effective. Scientists will decide that. Not Trump. And just because Trump says that he has a "good feeling" doesn't make it his fault that aquarium guy bit the dust. We all have some personal responsibility left here.
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The Commish
Footballguy
This is the disconnect......you're tying this forum and it's posters to the media you are watching. That's not going to end well.
There are absolutely responsible ways to convey optimism. First step? Simply mention that there are existing drugs being looked at as a remedy and preliminary tests are encouraging. Don't mention any specific drugs and don't babble in large word salads when coherence is of the utmost importance....not difficult.
sho nuff
Footballguy
But they aren't approved for what he is pushing them as...and the doctors have had to walk back his comments. And we have seen it has caused multiple problems.
Do you not see that? Can you not admit he should defer to doctors about such things rather than making claims he can't back up (like the Google website...like how he claimed it was FDA approved and the FDA came right back after and said no...like claiming Ford and GM are producing ventilators already and then they come back and say no they aren't yet).
Its not everyone else's fault for pointing out that he jumps the gun and such rhetoric has bad consequences...its his fault. There is zero need to defend such things out of him.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
What specifically did he say that was misleading or confusing that can be considered even a shred to blame for somebody that doesnt even have the virus to buy fish tank cleaner and eat it?
Even if I tried to play devils advocate I literally cant think of a single reasonable way to blame trump here.
This is why media headlines are so crappy. I think what we have here is people getting duped by headlines forming strong opinions and then not wanting to back down.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
There is no denying that Trump gets dumped on incessantly by many posters on this board. However it was only two weeks ago that a lot of those same posters praised Trump in his initial presser and were saying it was the best moment of his presidency.
Unfortunately it didn't last long because Trump very quickly moved off of that stance and began patting himself on the back, contradicting his own medical advisers, making wild claims like he knew it was a pandemic for a long time and blaming Democrats, the states, fake news, etc..
While 1% may be unfair for the other 99% he brings it on himself.
RnR
Footballguy
No. I'm observing them independently. I'd love to be a regular poster in here, but I know better based on my observations. I'd love to not have to watch hours of a task force presser to get the answers we seek in proper context, but I do because I know better than to leave it to those in search of clicks and talking point narratives. Both leave me exhausted.This is the disconnect......you're tying this forum and it's posters to the media you are watching. That's not going to end well.
There are absolutely responsible ways to convey optimism. First step? Simply mention that there are existing drugs being looked at as a remedy and preliminary tests are encouraging. Don't mention any specific drugs and don't babble in large word salads when coherence is of the utmost importance....not difficult.
It has been days ago, but he did "simply mention" that initially. You know what comes next? Journalists and the public both wants specifics on the drugs once you let the cat out of the bag that you're trying them. And that's why he's talking about them. I agree with you that he could present it in a less babbling manner. We're on the same page there.
You were the one who questioned why I was only looking at death numbers and I explained they were the only reliable numbers. The best way to get a ballpark number on number of infected is from extrapolating from the death figures. Why can't you just agree with something instead of constantly looking for differences. If I posted the above you would be criticizing it.
It's why I asked @jon_mx yesterday what he believed we'd be able to extrapolate from the raw death numbers. We have a big fat large elephant of unknown sitting right in our faces that needs to be addressed before we start attempting those kinds of conversations. We are still in the "we don't know what we don't know" phase of this whole thing...getting ready to start our third month.
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RnR
Footballguy
I'm not in search of a reason to admit anything. I totally expect Trump to misspeak or deliver a buzzworthy line or two when he's in front of the press corp for 90 minutes a day. I just don't lose my mind over it.
sho nuff
Footballguy
You mean where he made claims...and Dr. Fauci had to temper those claims and walk back things?
If you are paying attention to what he is actually saying...and still come away with there is nothing wrong with it...not sure what to say anymore. His statements end up contradicted by the experts nearly every time. That is not good rhetoric from POTUS and why many are saying he really should just be giving a brief update and few words and let the experts talk about details and things they know about and things he has no clue about...including taking questions.
The Commish
Footballguy
a normal President says "We are not going to comment on the specific drugs at this time until we are confident they will be an actual solution. We do not want to present a false hope to the community at large"....problem solved, understood and no one is trying to self medicate. This isn't difficult
To your first point, if you're observing them independently, I'd love a link to posters here saying the guy took the fish cleaner because Trump told him to...TIA.
Despite Trump's ridiculous rhetoric his actions have been pretty good. I am actually thankful he is in charge instead of the bleeding heart mindset that dominates this forum of saving lives at all costs including driving us into a depression.
The Commish
Footballguy
Because you can't extrapolate anything from raw death figures. We don't know enough yet to do that
I didn't question why you were only looking at death numbers. I asked what you thought a decrease in the next two weeks would mean given how little we know about infection numbers. I did ask what you were going to extrapolate from raw death numbers given the fact we have no real idea how big our problem is with infections. You never answered and still haven't
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sho nuff
Footballguy
What actions have been good outside of the travel restrictions with China?
https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest
Take a look at the charts...what actions were good when you see the rate this has occurred here in this country?
Sorry...Id much rather have a competent man who acts and says the right things vs what we have. Pence, for example, has acted and spoke much better.
RnR
Footballguy
I don't think I asserted that posters were saying that. I tied that one to the media. (Specifically for the headline writing, in my book)a normal President says "We are not going to comment on the specific drugs at this time until we are confident they will be an actual solution. We do not want to present a false hope to the community at large"....problem solved, understood and no one is trying to self medicate. This isn't difficult
To your first point, if you're observing them independently, I'd love a link to posters here saying the guy took the fish cleaner because Trump told him to...TIA.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
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