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Democrats block Senate CV Stimulus Package

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19 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

House panel warns coronavirus could destroy Postal Service by June

The U.S. Postal Service could be gone by June unless Congress immediately delivers billions of dollars to counteract the impact of the coronavirus crisis, a House committee chairwoman warned Monday night.

"Based on a number of briefings and warnings this week about a critical fall-off in mail across the country, it has become clear that the Postal Service will not survive the summer without immediate help from Congress and the White House," said Oversight Committee Chairwoman Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) in a statement.

I actually worked 35 years and recently retired from the post office.   I know the postal service has had heavy mail decline, but that’s been happening for many years, especially 1st class letters.   I know way more about the postal debt, the main cause is the mandatory retirement pre-funding that the postal service is required to pay for each employee.   That’s the main cause and the postal service has been trying to get congress to stop requiring pre-funding  retirements for at least the past 10 years.  This issue needs to be address, but not in this emergency bill.  I have a lot of friends who still work for the postal service and even today, they are still working overtime.  Mail volume, especially packages is high and is going to keep increasing due to the fact more people are ordering stuff for home delivery.  The postal service issues need to be addressed by congress, but not in this bill.  You would not believe how many of my friends made over $100K with the postal service and they are working jobs that requiring very little if any skill.  I feel sorry for the letter carriers, for the work they are required to do, they are underpaid compared to most other postal employees.

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Posted (edited)

I cant dive into your anecdotal with you.

I did hope for a better response though, with the truth of it laid bare.

And Im am perfectly okay with people making good salaries at honest jobs that can provide for a family. Well done by the postal service and the government. 10000 times better then some 20 board of directors making 3-20 mill a piece while workers draw assistance.

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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This bill had $7 mil for Gallaudet University for the def and blind.  I'm sure the burden for handicapped is much worse, but why don't they just did into their 183 million endowment.  Not sure how endowments work, so maybe that's a dumb question.

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6 hours ago, timschochet said:

But what is their model that they need 50 billion dollars to leave some planes parked for a few weeks?  

Revenues,  ok massive shortfall.  But the business will be back.  Can we not legislate some social distancing in the seats while we are at the cash register?  

Are there assurances the staff will be retained and paid through this for our 50 billion?

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6 hours ago, Kevrunner said:

I actually worked 35 years and recently retired from the post office.   I know the postal service has had heavy mail decline, but that’s been happening for many years, especially 1st class letters.   I know way more about the postal debt, the main cause is the mandatory retirement pre-funding that the postal service is required to pay for each employee.   That’s the main cause and the postal service has been trying to get congress to stop requiring pre-funding  retirements for at least the past 10 years.  This issue needs to be address, but not in this emergency bill.  I have a lot of friends who still work for the postal service and even today, they are still working overtime.  Mail volume, especially packages is high and is going to keep increasing due to the fact more people are ordering stuff for home delivery.  The postal service issues need to be addressed by congress, but not in this bill.  You would not believe how many of my friends made over $100K with the postal service and they are working jobs that requiring very little if any skill.  I feel sorry for the letter carriers, for the work they are required to do, they are underpaid compared to most other postal employees.

With 5 or 6 weeks vacation too, right?

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3 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

With 5 or 6 weeks vacation too, right?

This probably isn’t the time or thread for this, but yes postal service workers earn a lot of leave. They also waste A TON of money. They micromanage, the letter carrier craft especially, at a ridiculous level these days. Everything Kevrunner posted is accurate, at least in what I’ve witnessed in my 21 years working there. 

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1 minute ago, Man In The Box said:

This probably isn’t the time or thread for this, but yes postal service workers earn a lot of leave. They also waste A TON of money. They micromanage, the letter carrier craft especially, at a ridiculous level these days. Everything Kevrunner posted is accurate, at least in what I’ve witnessed in my 21 years working there. 

I was a carrier one summer, it was a college job that I got hooked up with, and when I'd talk to the lifer's that was the one perk that kept most of them in the job so I don't begrudge them.  This was 25 years ago so I didn't know if they still had that.  That was a very stressful job actually, they tell you any mistake is essentially a federal offense  and I get the "going postal" deal doing it with the mundane nature so I'm not coming down on them.  That I can send a letter from NYC to Hawaii for 50 cents or whatever a stamp is to me an amazing bargain and I think they've been undercharging for years.

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1 minute ago, Smack Tripper said:

I was a carrier one summer, it was a college job that I got hooked up with, and when I'd talk to the lifer's that was the one perk that kept most of them in the job so I don't begrudge them.  This was 25 years ago so I didn't know if they still had that.  That was a very stressful job actually, they tell you any mistake is essentially a federal offense  and I get the "going postal" deal doing it with the mundane nature so I'm not coming down on them.  That I can send a letter from NYC to Hawaii for 50 cents or whatever a stamp is to me an amazing bargain and I think they've been undercharging for years.


All true. When I got the job in ‘99 I didn’t plan on making it my career. I planned on working a year or two and going back to school. Life events put a nice kink in those plans and I’m still there 21 years later. The perks are very good compared to most private sector jobs, but yes it takes a lot of mental and physical toughness to do the job long term. It’s not for everyone. 

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18 minutes ago, Man In The Box said:


All true. When I got the job in ‘99 I didn’t plan on making it my career. I planned on working a year or two and going back to school. Life events put a nice kink in those plans and I’m still there 21 years later. The perks are very good compared to most private sector jobs, but yes it takes a lot of mental and physical toughness to do the job long term. It’s not for everyone. 

I tried to edit but it didn't take Man, I also don't bedgrudge the vacation, I think most jobs after 5 years should be 4 weeks or so, they keep the other wheels of the economy spinning and vacation keeps the whole workforce fresh in many ways

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No voter ID to get a ballot, & anonymous “ballot harvesting” pg 650
$300,000,000 for Migrant and Refugee Assistance pg 147
$10,000 per person for student loan bailout
$100,000,000 to Nasa, because, who knows why.
$20,000,000,000 to the USPS, because why the hell not
$300,000,000 to the Endowment for the Arts / because #### it
$300,000,000 for the Endowment for the Humanities/ because no one even knew that was a thing
$15,000,000 for Veterans Employment Training / for when the GI Bill isn't enough
$435,000,000 for mental health support / thats a lot of ####### suicide hotlines
$30,000,000,000 for the Department of Education stabilization fund/ because that will keep people employed
$200,000,000 to Safe Schools Emergency Response to Violence Program
$300,000,000 to Public Broadcasting / NPR has to be bought by the dems
$500,000,000 to Museums and Libraries / Who the hell knows how we are going to use it
$720,000,000 to Social Security Admin / but get this only 200,000,000 is to help people. The rest is for admin costs
$25,000,000 for Cleaning supplies for the Capitol Building / I #### you not it's on page 136
$7,500,000 to the Smithsonian for additional salaries
$35,000,000 to the JFK Center for performing Arts
$25,000,000 for additional salary for House of Representatives
$3,000,000,000 upgrade to the IT department at the VA
$315,000,000 for State Department Diplomatic Programs
$95,000,000 for the Agency of International Development
$300,000,000 for International Disaster Assistance
$90,000,000 for the Peace Corp pg 148
$13,000,000 to Howard University pg 121
9,000,000 Misc Senate Expenses pg 134
$100,000,000 to Essential Air carriers pg 162 This of note because the Airlines are going to need billions in loans to keep them afloat. $100,000,000 is chump change
$40,000,000,000 goes to the Take Responsibility to Workers and Families Act. This sounds like it's direct payments for workers. Pg 164
$1,000,000,000 Airlines Recycle and Save Program pg 163
$25,000,000 to the FAA for administrative costs pg 165
$492,000,000 to National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) pg 167
$526,000,000 Grants to Amtrak to remain available if needed through 2021 pg 168 (what are the odds that doesn't go unused)
Hidden on page 174 the Secretary has 7 days to allocate the funds & notify Congress
$25,000,000,000 for Transit Infrastructure pg 169
$3,000,000 Maritime Administration pg 172
$5,000,000 Salaries and Expensive Office of the Inspector General pg 172
$2,500,000 Public and Indian Housing pg 175
$5,000,000 Community Planning and Development pg 175
$2,500,000 Office of Housing
 

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7 hours ago, timschochet said:

So? I like pork. A lot of good programs get started that way. 

Then start them during a budget process...not during emergency bills.

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Turns out the hangup was the White House did not want oversight.

White House agrees to allow oversight of huge coronavirus loan program as $2 trillion Senate deal nears

 

++++++++++

The White House has agreed to allow enhanced scrutiny over a massive loan program that is a centerpiece of the Senate’s $2 trillion coronavirus economic package, two people briefed on the discussions said, taking steps to address a major Democratic concern and potentially pave the way for a vote by Tuesday night.

The Senate bill allows the Treasury Department to extend $500 billion in loans and loan guarantees to try and blunt the virus’s economic impact. Of that amount, $425 billion is supposed to go to businesses, cities, and states. Another $50 billion would go to passenger airlines, $8 billion more for cargo airlines, and an additional $17 billion would be directed for firms that are deemed important to national security.

President Trump has already said where he wants some of the money to go, promising assistance to cruise ship companies, for example, that have operations in Miami. And when he was asked Monday evening who would perform oversight of the program, Trump responded “I’ll be the oversight.”

But during closed-door negotiations on Capitol Hill, White House officials have agreed to allow an independent inspector general and an oversight board to scrutinize the lending decisions, said the two people, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the status of deliberations.

The most recent precedent for this is the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program that was created during the financial crisis in 2008. To oversee TARP, Congress created an independent inspector general, a regulatory oversight board, and a congressional oversight panel. Over the course of several years, investigations uncovered numerous cases of fraud at large and small companies as firms sought to obtain taxpayer money through various programs.

The precise oversight structure for the new lending program could not be determined, and it was also unclear whether the oversight structure would be as robust as what was created during TARP. By Monday evening, a number of Republicans were on board with making changes to win Democratic support.

++++++++++++++

The House of Representatives is currently out of session, and chances that House members would return en masse to Washington to vote appeared increasingly remote. Democratic aides said they were optimistic that a strong bipartisan Senate vote would make it possible to pass the bill by unanimous consent in the House -- a process requiring only two members present in the House chamber. But that would require every lawmaker to agree -- a tall order for a potential $2 trillion bill touching every part of the U.S. economy.

A report releases late Monday by House Rules Committee Chairman Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) said unanimous consent is “by far the best option” for passing legislation during the pandemic emergency. Creating a remote voting system, as scores of members have suggested, was not feasible, the report concluded, and suggested a system of proxy voting as an alternative -- whereby members could formally allow other members present in the chamber to cast their votes for them.

“While remote voting deserves ... thoughtful study, to create a secure, reliable, and user-friendly system while in the midst of a crisis is not realistic,” the report said.

++++++++++++++

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Posted (edited)

I hope this doesn't mean a repeat of the 2018-19 budget where Pence and Mulvaney personally negotiated a budget deal on behalf of Trump only for Trump to blow it up because well just because.

The Secretary of the Treasury is personally negotiating this deal.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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2 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I hope this doesn't mean a repeat of the 2018-19 budget where Pence and Mulvaney personally negotiated a budget deal on behalf of Trump only for Trump to blow it up because well just because.

The Secretary of the Treasury is personally negotiating this deal.

They better remove the reversals of Trumps EO's. Those look to me like intentional attempts to get trump to do just that. They have nothing to do with this. 

(Maybe they have already) 

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18 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

:goodposting:  They need to cut the bull and get something passed to help the American people.   Anything that cannot be agreed to should be removed and tried separately in a different bill.

This.  

This isn't the time to solve other issues or appear as sly

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

They better remove the reversals of Trumps EO's. Those look to me like intentional attempts to get trump to do just that. They have nothing to do with this. 

(Maybe they have already) 

Well it would help to understand if the article Trump was referring to mentioned them, but it doesn't.

I'll admit I haven't kept up on the minutiae, yesterday was nuts for me.

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2 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Well it would help to understand if the article Trump was referring to mentioned them, but it doesn't.

I'll admit I haven't kept up on the minutiae, yesterday was nuts for me.

The article mentions collective bargaining. Two of the EO's they specifically name in the house bill are regarding bargaining. 

But I was mostly replying to your extrapolation. 

Wouldnt you agree that a house bill that specifically names three executive orders that are completely unrelated to coronavirus and says that they will no longer be valid has a higher probability of Trump going rogue and rejecting? 

 

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2 hours ago, Punxsutawney Phil said:

This bill had $7 mil for Gallaudet University for the def and blind.  I'm sure the burden for handicapped is much worse, but why don't they just did into their 183 million endowment.  Not sure how endowments work, so maybe that's a dumb question.

By law, non-profits can't spend the principal (the original gift amount).  But most endowments have lots of accumulated earnings.  What's common is to draw off a designated spending rate each year, such as 4-4.5%, while anticipating that the investment policy will grow the funds by 7-7.5% per year.  That 3% buffer stays in the fund and grows the endowments, allowing them to keep up with inflation.  (Most schools determine the amount of $$ to be drawn off based on a three-year rolling average of the endowment, precisely so market drops like this don't create an overreaction.)

I don't know why Gallaudet is being supported by the bill.  It might be, in part, by the fact that Gallaudet is right in D.C. (I'm friends with a couple of fellow accounting faculty there).  But a lot of colleges and universities are going to be hit hard.  My university (smaller catholic school in the near-west suburbs of Chicago) has lots of first-generation students from Chicago.  I'm already hearing of students losing their jobs or their parents losing theirs.  I expect we'll be hit, like many schools, with lower retention rates going into next fall or lower than expected freshman classes.  If anything, students will have greater financial need next fall.  But with the market drop, schools' endowment funds will all be a lot lower, and that reduces the flexibility for drawing additional funds.  

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

The article mentions collective bargaining. Two of the EO's they specifically name in the house bill are regarding bargaining. 

But I was mostly replying to your extrapolation. 

Wouldnt you agree that a house bill that specifically names three executive orders that are completely unrelated to coronavirus and says that they will no longer be valid has a higher probability of Trump going rogue and rejecting?

Ok gotcha, thanks, from the article:

Quote

Below are some of the new, non-coronavirus-related demands that popped up after Speaker Pelosi flew back from San Francisco yesterday after taking a week off:

1) Unprecedented collective bargaining powers for unions

2) Increased fuel emissions standards for airlines

3) Expansion of wind and solar tax credits

Not only are these completely unrelated to the coronavirus epidemic, they could prevent companies from participating in the loan programs altogether—directly causing unnecessary layoffs.

- I'd agree with your point, and I could especially see how collective bargaining could get in the way of progress. However it's always odd to me when we have to factor in Trump's irascibility and susceptibility to influence when doing actual policy. - I will say your points are, again, reasonable - LET'S GET ON WITH IT FOLKS - but IMO if Mnuchin agrees to do it just sign the hell off on it and let's get moving.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Then start them during a budget process...not during emergency bills.

That’s not the way things happen. And this isn’t a good moment to reinvent the wheel. 

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29 minutes ago, timschochet said:

That’s not the way things happen. And this isn’t a good moment to reinvent the wheel. 

That is the problem...its not the way things happen because we have become too accustomed to congress doing this crap.  There is a time and place for those things...and now is not the time for their crap.

And yeah...its a perfect moment to tell them to put aside their BS and get this done for the people.  Especially in an election year when their feet are even more over the flames.

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This is looking pretty good!

Leigh Ann Caldwell @LACaldwellDC

NEW: The latest Coronavirus stimulus (wh/ are changes from the original proposal):

- At least $100 billion for hospitals

- Unemployment insurance benefits expansion for 100% of salary for 4 months

- No phase-in of direct payments for lower income people. ($1200/person;$500/kid)

8:58 AM · Mar 24, 2020

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Pelosi’s laundry list of pork is pretty damn disgusting.  I hope her shenanigans get an ample amount of media attention.

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

Pelosi’s laundry list of pork is pretty damn disgusting.  I hope her shenanigans get an ample amount of media attention.

Can you itemize them or give examples? Not browsing the news too much so it is good to have more context to what people are talking about here since otherwise I have no idea.

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1 minute ago, huthut said:

Can you itemize them or give examples? Not browsing the news too much so it is good to have more context to what people are talking about here since otherwise I have no idea.

There’s a short list right up above.

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Just now, jonessed said:

There’s a short list right up above.

I guess I have a different definition of pork than you do? I mean, none of those things directly benefit her district or state or party over any other, and they seem to be things that make sense to me during a medical/economic crisis. 

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Mark Cuban's reply to back and forth twitter bickering between Schumer and Cornyn:

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1242441662208622594

Mark Cuban @mcuban

BOTH OF YOU NEED TO DO YOUR ******* JOB! @SenSchumer, stop kissing progressive ***. We can't solve every problem in this deal  @JohnCornyn, stop kissing big corporate ***. They don't need buybacks or exec bonuses. They have no choice but to take any deal they can get.

Mark Cuban @mcuban

The economy is crashing and people are getting sick and dying because you 2 hard ***** think your agendas are bigger than the health and future of the American people. They are not. There is no perfect deal. TIME IS OUR ENEMY. Get this done today !

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2 minutes ago, jonessed said:

There’s a short list right up above.

I just heard an interview with her. She sounded great as usual but exhausted. Far too many people depend on her in these situations and she always comes through. One of our great heroes for sure. 

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Not sure the right thread, but:

PELOSI on remote voting: Congress should be prepared for it in a worst-case scenario but there are "constitutional, technological and security concerns about it."

"It may be that we have no choice but that, but if that is the case, we want to be fully prepared."

 

The question I have - what are the technological or security concerns?

There would always be a record of the vote - so I don't understand the security concerns, and the technological concerns must be tied to the security concerns because there is no technical barrier to holding a remote vote.

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1 minute ago, huthut said:

I guess I have a different definition of pork than you do? I mean, none of those things directly benefit her district or state or party over any other, and they seem to be things that make sense to me during a medical/economic crisis. 

Probably 🤣.

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4 minutes ago, themeanmachine said:

Mark Cuban's reply to back and forth twitter bickering between Schumer and Cornyn:

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1242441662208622594

Mark Cuban @mcuban

BOTH OF YOU NEED TO DO YOUR ******* JOB! @SenSchumer, stop kissing progressive ***. We can't solve every problem in this deal  @JohnCornyn, stop kissing big corporate ***. They don't need buybacks or exec bonuses. They have no choice but to take any deal they can get.

Mark Cuban @mcuban

The economy is crashing and people are getting sick and dying because you 2 hard ***** think your agendas are bigger than the health and future of the American people. They are not. There is no perfect deal. TIME IS OUR ENEMY. Get this done today !

Well sad by Cuban

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I just heard an interview with her. She sounded great as usual but exhausted. Far too many people depend on her in these situations and she always comes through. One of our great heroes for sure. 

She has done well in the past...but her/House bill was really bad.

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4 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Not sure the right thread, but:

PELOSI on remote voting: Congress should be prepared for it in a worst-case scenario but there are "constitutional, technological and security concerns about it."

"It may be that we have no choice but that, but if that is the case, we want to be fully prepared."

 

The question I have - what are the technological or security concerns?

There would always be a record of the vote - so I don't understand the security concerns, and the technological concerns must be tied to the security concerns because there is no technical barrier to holding a remote vote.

Yeah...in this day and age that they can't figure out how to securely vote remotely for congress is pretty bad.

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19 minutes ago, jonessed said:

There’s a short list right up above.

That feels like a reddit list, but I could be wrong.

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its not possible to vote while staying 6 ft apart?  bring half into the chamber at a time if you have to.  shouldn't be that hard.

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Just now, The Commish said:

That feels like a reddit list, but I could be wrong.

It’s accurate.  Obviously the comments are not in the bill, but the proposed expenditures are real.

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4 minutes ago, joffer said:

its not possible to vote while staying 6 ft apart?  bring half into the chamber at a time if you have to.  shouldn't be that hard.

Not really in some places.  Ppl are 6 inches apart and the lines can go for miles.

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

That’s not the way things happen. And this isn’t a good moment to reinvent the wheel. 

Actually, I can't think of a better moment to stand up and insist that irrelevant crap NOT be included in a bill.

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22 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Not sure the right thread, but:

PELOSI on remote voting: Congress should be prepared for it in a worst-case scenario but there are "constitutional, technological and security concerns about it."

"It may be that we have no choice but that, but if that is the case, we want to be fully prepared."

 

The question I have - what are the technological or security concerns?

There would always be a record of the vote - so I don't understand the security concerns, and the technological concerns must be tied to the security concerns because there is no technical barrier to holding a remote vote.

Well, they can remote vote if there's bills to vote on that the Democrats aren't blocking with partisan politics.  😜

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6 minutes ago, jonessed said:

It’s accurate.  Obviously the comments are not in the bill, but the proposed expenditures are real.

I haven't read the bill yet.  Pretty pathetic.  I can only imagine what it looks like with both lists put together.  Maybe $1T total for actual coronavirus related things?  Less than that?

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25 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Not sure the right thread, but:

PELOSI on remote voting: Congress should be prepared for it in a worst-case scenario but there are "constitutional, technological and security concerns about it."

"It may be that we have no choice but that, but if that is the case, we want to be fully prepared."

 

The question I have - what are the technological or security concerns?

There would always be a record of the vote - so I don't understand the security concerns, and the technological concerns must be tied to the security concerns because there is no technical barrier to holding a remote vote.

Think about all the terrible arguments the GOP makes for voting without ID and extrapolate towards technology and I'm willing to bet it's along those lines which is somewhat ironic given it's Pelosi :lol: 

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

I haven't read the bill yet.  Pretty pathetic.  I can only imagine what it looks like with both lists put together.  Maybe $1T total for actual coronavirus related things?  Less than that?

I don’t think the House bill has any chance of passing.  I’m actually surprised Pelosi opened herself up to that kind of criticism for nothing.  There’s a lot less pork in the Senate bill.

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7 minutes ago, Endowed said:

Not really in some places.  Ppl are 6 inches apart and the lines can go for miles.

i think he means within congress.

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1 minute ago, Long Ball Larry said:

i think he means within congress.

Ty, thought I was going nuts.

They have a multitude of ways of working it out on Capitol hill.

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38 minutes ago, themeanmachine said:

Mark Cuban's reply to back and forth twitter bickering between Schumer and Cornyn:

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1242441662208622594

Mark Cuban @mcuban

BOTH OF YOU NEED TO DO YOUR ******* JOB! @SenSchumer, stop kissing progressive ***. We can't solve every problem in this deal  @JohnCornyn, stop kissing big corporate ***. They don't need buybacks or exec bonuses. They have no choice but to take any deal they can get.

Mark Cuban @mcuban

The economy is crashing and people are getting sick and dying because you 2 hard ***** think your agendas are bigger than the health and future of the American people. They are not. There is no perfect deal. TIME IS OUR ENEMY. Get this done today !

#Cuban2024

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, jonessed said:

I don’t think the House bill has any chance of passing.  I’m actually surprised Pelosi opened herself up to that kind of criticism for nothing.  There’s a lot less pork in the Senate bill.

I haven't seen either one.  Just by the numbers above this is roughly $124,305,000,000.  That doesn't include the $10K per student for debt...no idea how many students that would include, so I couldn't add it.  Is that total number over a trillion dollars?  Genuine question...I don't know.  I thought I had seen rumored the Senate bill being close to $2,000,000,000,000.  There HAVE to be parts of the above list that are missing.  I should probably just dig in and read for myself.  Maybe during my meetings this afternoon.

Edited by The Commish

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53 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I just heard an interview with her. She sounded great as usual but exhausted. Far too many people depend on her in these situations and she always comes through. One of our great heroes for sure. 

She is as far from a hero as a person can get.

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After this debacle I  pretty confident that I will be voting against all incumbents at both the house and Senate level this November. What a disgrace. 

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