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Drew Brees: the modern-day version of John Elway (1 Viewer)

Yogibear

Yogibear

Footballguy
This year, I'm picking the Saints to beat the Chiefs to win Super Bowl LV.  I'm also saying that Drew Brees will finally win league MVP this year as he has his best season yet.  But am I the only person who thinks his career has been like John Elway's career?  Here's why I say this: Drew Brees has had some great seasons in which he should've been named MVP, but he has yet to be named MVP.  At least John Elway won an MVP back in 1987.  John Elway has 2 Super Bowl rings, and this year I believe Drew Brees will get his 2nd Super Bowl ring.  There may be more similarities, but those are the main ones I can think of.  Is this a fair comparison?  What I'm asking everyone is: is it fair to compare Drew Brees to John Elway and say they've both had similar careers?

 
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Yogibear said:
 But am I the only person who thinks his career has been like John Elway's career?  Here's why I say this: Drew Brees has had some great seasons in which he should've been named MVP, but he has yet to be named MVP.  At least John Elway won an MVP back in 1987.  John Elway has 2 Super Bowl rings, and this year I believe Drew Brees will get his 2nd Super Bowl ring.  There may be more similarities, but those are the main ones I can think of.  
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you listed two aspects of their careers in which they differ, yet those are the main similarities that you see?

 
Brees is better than Elway. 

Elway's 1987 MVP was a bit of a joke. It was a strike season, and one that he arguably wasn't one of the top-5 QB's during. Elway is among the most overrated QB's in history, he was extremely up and down, and while many use the excuse that he didn't have great weapons until late in his career, he always had decent ones, as well as a solid defense and o-line. In many ways Elway was a lot like Ben Roethlisberger among current QB's. 

Brees has always been among the league leaders in every passing category, and will likely finish his career a the leader in every major category. Historically, his best comp is Fran Tarkenton, though Brees has a ring and Tarkenton had not. Brees probably should have won multiple MVP's in his career. 

All that said, I do agree its possible their careers end the same way, retiring as champions.

 
Elway never led the league in passer rating (best was third in 1993) and finished top 5 only 5 times (top 10, 6 times). Brees led the league in passer rating twice, finished top 5 nine times and top 10, 14 times. Brees is #3 all-time in passer rating. So he buries Elway not only on accumulation stats (+26K yards, +247 TDs) but on rate stats (+18 points passer rating, +0.5 YPA, -0.8 INT%, +1.3 TD%, +10.7 completion %).

So, no. I'd say Brees, whose achievements are probably a little under-appreciated, is not a good comparison for Elway, whose achievements are unquestionably overrated.

 
CalBear said:
So, no. I'd say Brees, whose achievements are probably a little under-appreciated, is not a good comparison for Elway, whose achievements are unquestionably overrated.
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Except that Elway was the king of comebacks and one of the most clutch leaders of all times. He took a couple of poor teams to the SB and carried the Broncos on his back to get there. He went to FIVE SuperBowl and won two. He could make incredible plays, was one of the forerunners of the modern game (along with Marino, Kelly, Moon). 

Brees is an excellent modern QB but he is still outside the all-time greats list. But, yes, if he can win this year, that will help his case. 

 
hispeedthinmint said:
Some people forget they played in different times. League was not pass happy back in the day like it is now. That must be taken into account
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Elway was not distinguished as a passer relative to his peers. In his entire career he led the league in only one stat (total yardage) in only one year, 1993. And he also led in pass attempts that year so his rate stats were not great. He threw for 7 yards more than Steve Young who had 89 fewer attempts. 

 
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Truebluey said:
Except that Elway was the king of comebacks and one of the most clutch leaders of all times. He took a couple of poor teams to the SB and carried the Broncos on his back to get there. He went to FIVE SuperBowl and won two. He could make incredible plays, was one of the forerunners of the modern game (along with Marino, Kelly, Moon). 

Brees is an excellent modern QB but he is still outside the all-time greats list. But, yes, if he can win this year, that will help his case. 
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Thank you for reinforcing my point.

 
hispeedthinmint said:
Some people forget they played in different times. League was not pass happy back in the day like it is now. That must be taken into account
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A QB has thrown for 5k yards 12 times. Brees has done it 5 times. Saying the league is pass happy cheapens his accomplishments. Yes, passing is up but he's still the only QB to hit the 5k mark twice and he's done it 5 times. 

 
hispeedthinmint said:
Some people forget they played in different times. League was not pass happy back in the day like it is now. That must be taken into account
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That doesn't really change his point though. Elway was never particularly great among his peers at the time. Brees has been ever since he left San Diego. 

Elway's 1987 MVP, he was at best the 4th best QB that season, and arguably behind a few non-QBs as well in my book, namely Jerry Rice. 

Truebluey said:
Except that Elway was the king of comebacks and one of the most clutch leaders of all times. He took a couple of poor teams to the SB and carried the Broncos on his back to get there. He went to FIVE SuperBowl and won two. He could make incredible plays, was one of the forerunners of the modern game (along with Marino, Kelly, Moon). 

Brees is an excellent modern QB but he is still outside the all-time greats list. But, yes, if he can win this year, that will help his case. 
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Elway was a great leader, no argument there. I do think the king of comebacks moniker is a bit ill deserved. He may have had one of the most impressive comebacks(The Drive) but he actually didn't have that many compared to his peers. Warren Moon for example had more, just non quite as dramatic as "The Drive." Fun fact, the QB with the most 4th Q come from behind wins in a single season is actually Matthew Stafford, who certainly doesn't have that reputation.

I would also disagree that Elway took poor teams to the Super Bowl. The Broncos had a top-5 defense all throughout the 86-89 stretch, including the best in the NFL in 89. Just because they weren't on the level of say the 85 Bears, doesn't mean they were poor. By that logic, 30 years from now are people going to be saying Jimmy Garoppolo carried a poor 49ers team to the Super Bowl in 2019? 

Super hot take that I 100% believe: John Elway was the 3rd best QB from his draft class.

 
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hispeedthinmint said:
5k yards is the measure for which QB is better than some other QB? Oh, ok. Need A LOT more than that. Elway was a great QB & Brees is too. Why can't you just let that be?
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Certainly that isn't the standard. I just think when someone tries to dismiss Brees gaudy passing stats as a product of a "pass happy league", the stats need to be put in context compared to his peers. 3 players who threw for 5k also won MVP that year so I'm not alone in thinking that it is an accomplishment that deserves some recognition. 

It is also not like he's having 5k seasons like Winston's last year. He also holds records for most 100+, 120+, 130+ passer rating games and the record for best completion percentage in a career and season. 

If anything, Elway is undervalued and Brees, by virtue of being Peyton and Brady's shadow, is under-recognized. 

 
CalBear said:
Elway never led the league in passer rating (best was third in 1993) and finished top 5 only 5 times (top 10, 6 times). Brees led the league in passer rating twice, finished top 5 nine times and top 10, 14 times. Brees is #3 all-time in passer rating. So he buries Elway not only on accumulation stats (+26K yards, +247 TDs) but on rate stats (+18 points passer rating, +0.5 YPA, -0.8 INT%, +1.3 TD%, +10.7 completion %).

So, no. I'd say Brees, whose achievements are probably a little under-appreciated, is not a good comparison for Elway, whose achievements are unquestionably overrated.
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Before you ever typed a word, it was obvious that a "CAL BEAR" was going to take his shot at a Stanford guy.  Let the selective statistics fly!  So predictable.

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
Before you ever typed a word, it was obvious that a "CAL BEAR" was going to take his shot at a Stanford guy.  Let the selective statistics fly!  So predictable.
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"Selective" statistics, as in, all of them?

The only arguments for Elway are non-statistical ones. Which, again, is the opposite of Brees.

 
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travdogg said:
I would also disagree that Elway took poor teams to the Super Bowl.
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Exactly, and the "poor team" narrative is the myth that just won't die. 

In '97-'98 elway played with pro-bowlers...

Shannon Sharpe

Steve Atwater

Terrell Davis

Tom Nalen

Jason Elam

Bill Romanowski

Tony Jones

Ed McCaffrey

Neal Smith

So he "carried" those untalented team on his back that had pro-bowlers sprinkled in at RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, LB, DB oh yeah, and even K.

To me it says a lot that so many people think that elway deserves consideration as one of the best QB's of all time when at the time he was actually playing elway never even got a single first team all-pro selection. That has nothing to do with era. Over the course of his career he was just never considered the best QB in the league. Not once.

 
Wise Old Owl said:
A QB has thrown for 5k yards 12 times. Brees has done it 5 times. Saying the league is pass happy cheapens his accomplishments. Yes, passing is up but he's still the only QB to hit the 5k mark twice and he's done it 5 times. 
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I don't think there are many QB's that have more than 600 pass attempts in a season NINE times though. 

Stafford has only done it 4 times, and he just turned 32 this year. I certainly hope Stafford ends up with more 4th quarter comebacks than elway and more 5k seasons than Brees because some heads are going to explode.

 
BoltBacker said:
Exactly, and the "poor team" narrative is the myth that just won't die. 

In '97-'98 elway played with pro-bowlers...

Shannon Sharpe

Steve Atwater

Terrell Davis

Tom Nalen

Jason Elam

Bill Romanowski

Tony Jones

Ed McCaffrey

Neal Smith

So he "carried" those untalented team on his back that had pro-bowlers sprinkled in at RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, LB, DB oh yeah, and even K.

To me it says a lot that so many people think that elway deserves consideration as one of the best QB's of all time when at the time he was actually playing elway never even got a single first team all-pro selection. That has nothing to do with era. Over the course of his career he was just never considered the best QB in the league. Not once.
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John Mobley and Mark Schlereth too. Plus the 80's teams had Karl Mecklenberg, Rulon Jones, Dennis Smith, Keith Bishop, Greg Kragen, and even Sammy Winder.

Let's also not forget that, Denver was considering moving on from Elway. They spent a 1st rounder(Tommy Maddox) on a QB.That wasn't end of career Elway, it was when he was 31. 

Elway is on my Mount Rushmore of most overrated QB's of all time. The other 3 are Warren Moon, Roger Staubach, and at the top of the list, Troy Aikman. I'll always believe Dallas could have had any one of a dozen different QB's and still won the 3 Super Bowls they did with Aikman.

 
travdogg said:
Brees is better than Elway. 

Elway is among the most overrated QB's in history, he was extremely up and down, and while many use the excuse that he didn't have great weapons until late in his career, he always had decent ones, as well as a solid defense and o-line. 

Brees has always been among the league leaders in every passing category, and will likely finish his career a the leader in every major category. Historically, his best comp is Fran Tarkenton, though Brees has a ring and Tarkenton had not. Brees probably should have won multiple MVP's in his career. 
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This is incredibly accurate.  I'm struggling to think of a more overrated QB in a historical context.  Weapons galore, great offensive line - if you put Dan Marino on that team he wins far more than two championships and I suspect the GOAT conversation includes a third QB.

 
Truebluey said:
Except that Elway was the king of comebacks.
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He had two more 4th Q comebacks than Vinny Testaverde.  Two.  Vinny Testaverde.

Brees has four more 4th Q comebacks than Elway.  

How exactly do you type those words out and remember to breathe at the same time?

 
-CE- said:
This is incredibly accurate.  I'm struggling to think of a more overrated QB in a historical context.  Weapons galore, great offensive line - if you put Dan Marino on that team he wins far more than two championships and I suspect the GOAT conversation includes a third QB.
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You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are far from the consensus of those who actually study football. 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2726739-the-top-10-quarterbacks-of-all-time.amp.html

The late 80's early 90's Broncos were not good. Poor running game and brittle defense (check out their SB games against Washington and SF). The fact that Elway carried them to several SBs is a minor miracle. I watched every game they played and Elway was the difference for them. The 98 and 99 team was excellent, and they won two SBs, so I'm not sure what people are arguing about from that time. 

Yes, Marino is certainly one of the greatest QBs I've ever seen. Better than Elway for sure. But not better than Montana imo. 

My only point was not to put Brees on a pedestal he hasn't yet earned. With the talent he's had he should have won more SBs, and the loss two years ago was devastating. NO was far superior to that Minn team. As the article states, Brees is knocking on the door. Let's let him earn it rather than open it for him. 

 
-CE- said:
This is incredibly accurate.  I'm struggling to think of a more overrated QB in a historical context.  Weapons galore, great offensive line - if you put Dan Marino on that team he wins far more than two championships and I suspect the GOAT conversation includes a third QB.
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I think Aikman is a bit more overrated, just because he won 3 titles in 4 years. However, when they needed him to actually win a game based on his play, he usually came up short. He laid gigantic eggs in the 94 NFC Title Game, the 96 Divisional Round, and the 98 Wild Card round. He had a 4-9 TD/INT ratio in those games, where the running game/defense didn't dominate, with a passer rating only slightly above an incomplete pass. His only real great performance was in the 92 playoffs, when he wasn't really needed other than a couple key throws in the NFC Title game against SF. 

Who are the 2 GOAT QB's in your opinion? I think Peyton Manning is the best QB of all-time and is an actual example of a guy who carried extremely flawed teams to 12+ wins annually. It was ironic(about time one could argue) that his final championship came from his team carrying him.

One reason why Manning is underrated and Elway is overrated, I believe, is people often only recall their last memory of a player. Elway was as a back to back champ having career best rate stats, where as Manning was as a broken down star who got benched during the season. Favre seems to suffer a bit too from his last Vikings season as well. If Brady sucks in Tampa, I wonder how opinions will change about him, and perhaps Belichick as well. 

 
Truebluey said:
The late 80's early 90's Broncos were not good. Poor running game and brittle defense (check out their SB games against Washington and SF). The fact that Elway carried them to several SBs is a minor miracle. I watched every game they played and Elway was the difference for them.
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Between 1988 to 1992 elway had a completion% of 55% and had 73td/75int. On a per season basis that works out to 14.6td/15int. During that time span he played with these pro-bowlers......

Shannon Sharp

Karl Mecklenburg

Steve Atwater

Dennis Smith

Mike Horan

Gaston Green

Greg Kragen

David Treadwell

Bobby Humphery

Michael Brooks

Those are just facts. You can remember the late 80's/early 90's any way you like but if a 55% completion rate and less TD's than INT's was his "golden era" I think that you might be making as strong a case as any of us that his legend is more fiction than fact at this point.

Just as a point of reference Blaine Gabbert has a career completion% of 56% and has thrown more TD's than INT's. Blaine Gabbert. 

 
BoltBacker said:
Between 1988 to 1992 elway had a completion% of 55% and had 73td/75int. On a per season basis that works out to 14.6td/15int. During that time span he played with these pro-bowlers......

Shannon Sharp

Karl Mecklenburg

Steve Atwater

Dennis Smith

Mike Horan

Gaston Green

Greg Kragen

David Treadwell

Bobby Humphery

Michael Brooks

Those are just facts. You can remember the late 80's/early 90's any way you like but if a 55% completion rate and less TD's than INT's was his "golden era" I think that you might be making as strong a case as any of us that his legend is more fiction than fact at this point.

Just as a point of reference Blaine Gabbert has a career completion% of 56% and has thrown more TD's than INT's. Blaine Gabbert. 
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While I agree with your broader point. Its not fair to compare Elway to Gabbert, or any 2010's QB using stats.  It as much tougher in Elway's era. Now, if you wanted to argue that Elway's rate stats being inferior to the likes of say Boomer Esiason during the same time frame, that is a more compelling argument.

 
travdogg said:
Let's also not forget that, Denver was considering moving on from Elway. They spent a 1st rounder(Tommy Maddox) on a QB.That wasn't end of career Elway, it was when he was 31. 
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Just in case people think this statement is hyperbolic in any way they should really look at the career of Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston.

I've long said that if a #1 overall pick played the way Elway did in his first 5 years in the league that they would have get sent packing in todays game. Not based on yardage or some other counting stat but just based on efficiency with their attempts. In his first five years elway had 54%/85td/77int. Mariota had 63%/76td/44int. Winston 61%/121td/88int. I'm sure this is where people will say, "But I remember those ESPN highlights of Elway completing BOMBS down field so of course he was less accurate". Actually, elway 6.9yd/attempt, Mariota 7.5yd/attempt, Winston 7.7yd/attempt so even by that measure Mariota pushes the ball down field more effectively than elway at the same point in his career. People say that Winston can't play QB in the NFL because he turns the ball over way too much. Winston has an INT% of 3.5!!!!! Well, elway had an INT% of 3.6 his first five years in the league. 

It wasn't until elway turned 33yo he had either a completion % above 59% or a TD/INT ratio of 2/1. It really wasn't that surprising that den was looking to move on at the time they drafted Maddox.

 
travdogg said:
While I agree with your broader point. Its not fair to compare Elway to Gabbert, or any 2010's QB using stats.  It as much tougher in Elway's era. Now, if you wanted to argue that Elway's rate stats being inferior to the likes of say Boomer Esiason during the same time frame, that is a more compelling argument.
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I don't think that it's fair to compare counting stats like TD's and yardage between eras, but I absolutely think it's fair to compare efficiency statistics like yards/attempt and INT%. 

And BTW, I'm certainly not saying Gabbert>elway.... I'm just pointing out that even a guy like Gabbert has been able to throw more TD's than he has thrown INT's. To me that absolutely crosses eras. 

 
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travdogg said:
John Mobley and Mark Schlereth too. Plus the 80's teams had Karl Mecklenberg, Rulon Jones, Dennis Smith, Keith Bishop, Greg Kragen, and even Sammy Winder.

Let's also not forget that, Denver was considering moving on from Elway. They spent a 1st rounder(Tommy Maddox) on a QB.That wasn't end of career Elway, it was when he was 31. 

Elway is on my Mount Rushmore of most overrated QB's of all time. The other 3 are Warren Moon, Roger Staubach, and at the top of the list, Troy Aikman. I'll always believe Dallas could have had any one of a dozen different QB's and still won the 3 Super Bowls they did with Aikman.
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I agree with you about Elway, as every argument on his behalf is just emotional, like hes John Wayne or something.

But you could have made your point without busting on Warren Moon. I will never forgive you for that. 

 
BoltBacker said:
Just as a point of reference Blaine Gabbert has a career completion% of 56% and has thrown more TD's than INT's. Blaine Gabbert. 
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Really? You're putting Blaine Gabbert above Elway? 

LOL

You should get together with the Vinnie Testaverde guy and start a fan club for under-appreciated all time great QBs. 

 
Wise Old Owl said:
A QB has thrown for 5k yards 12 times. Brees has done it 5 times. Saying the league is pass happy cheapens his accomplishments. Yes, passing is up but he's still the only QB to hit the 5k mark twice and he's done it 5 times. 
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There have been 17 seasons when a QB has thrown 650 passes. Brees has 7 of them. He also plays at least 9 games a year indoors. Brees has been a great QB, but he clearly has benefited from playing in an offense that airs it out a ton and has played in a lot of optimal playing conditions (in terms of having individual seasons with tons of yardage).

 
Anarchy99 said:
There have been 17 seasons when a QB has thrown 650 passes. Brees has 7 of them. He also plays at least 9 games a year indoors. Brees has been a great QB, but he clearly has benefited from playing in an offense that airs it out a ton and has played in a lot of optimal playing conditions (in terms of having individual seasons with tons of yardage).
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Yup.  He’s in the right era, playing in the right system, playing for the right coach, playing indoors, playing with a subpar defense many years.  Perfect storm.

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Yup.  He’s in the right era, playing in the right system, playing for the right coach, playing indoors, playing with a subpar defense many years.  Perfect storm.
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Brees is an interesting one to play the WHAT IF game . . .

What if he stayed in San Diego (he didn't play all that well in the early going with the Chargers . . . which prompted the team to draft Rivers)?

What if he signed and stayed in Miami instead of N.O. (for those that don't remember, that almost happened but the Fins were squeamish after Brees suffered a torn labrum and they went with Daunte Culpepper instead)?

What if the Dolphins had drafted Brees in the first place in 2001 (which was said to have been a  serious consideration)?

What if the Saints were the ones that ended up with Daunte Culpepper (who is two years older than Drew . . . could he have had a career resurgence)?

 
Its impossible to make the Elway = an all-time best with stats.  The stats weren't there - the Dan Reeves offense was not passer-friendly.  Reeves strategy was to keep the game close and win it in the end (that's how you beat a team better than yours so Im not saying it was bad). 

In the mid to late 80's, only SF was running west coast offense (maybe Cincy), and a few teams were running Air-Coryell (SD, Was, etc).  The era (i.e. rules) were not helpful to passing, but even comparing vs contemporaries, the offense the Broncos ran did not produce big stats.

The Reeves-led Broncos were also a defense first team.  They were the direct descendants of the Orange Crush defense of the late 70's, this is how the team was built.  Denver simply didn't surround Elway with dynamic receivers.  Sammy Winder was JAG, Bobby Humphrey was good before he found cocaine, Steve Sewell and Gerald Wilhite never fulfilled their promise.  Vance Johnson, Matk Jackson, Ricky Nattiel - Hardly the Marks Brothers.

Look what happened as soon as Reeves was sacked - after Broncos tried (and failed) to sign Tim Brown, they signed Anthony Miller and then traded for Mike Pritchard...and the Broncos passing offense jumped from 18th to 6th (NY/A, under Wade Phillips).  When Shanahan took over, the O got even better (with undrafted Rod Smith and journeyman Ed McCaffrey).

Its no coincidence that Elways statistics jumped again - he had his best statistics of his career after age 33 once Broncos moved on from Reeves.

TL/DR: Elway was a much better player than his statistics show (relative to contemporaries and/or the modern era) because he was hampered by Dan Reeves.

 
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That all being said, Elway is a terrible comp to Brees.  Brees has played in a system that favors the passing game most of his career, and he therefore compares favorably vs contemporaries and historically.

Elway struggled to win a SB early in his career, Brees won it at age 30 and hasn't had much playoff success since.

Stylistically,  they are very different.  Statistically, very different.  Career paths, very different.

If you wanted to find a Brees analogy from the 1983 draft class, Marino is a much closer fit.

 
BoltBacker said:
Between 1988 to 1992 elway had a completion% of 55% and had 73td/75int. On a per season basis that works out to 14.6td/15int. During that time span he played with these pro-bowlers......

Shannon Sharp

Karl Mecklenburg

Steve Atwater

Dennis Smith

Mike Horan

Gaston Green

Greg Kragen

David Treadwell

Bobby Humphery

Michael Brooks

Those are just facts. You can remember the late 80's/early 90's any way you like but if a 55% completion rate and less TD's than INT's was his "golden era" I think that you might be making as strong a case as any of us that his legend is more fiction than fact at this point.

Just as a point of reference Blaine Gabbert has a career completion% of 56% and has thrown more TD's than INT's. Blaine Gabbert. 
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Those are your exact words.

NOW you're "clarifying" (backtracking).

Anyway, this thread is actually about Drew Brees. One of the all-time greats was brought up as a point of comparison. Whining about an all-time great doesn't lessen them, but it does lessen you.

 
BoltBacker said:
Between 1988 to 1992 elway had a completion% of 55% and had 73td/75int. On a per season basis that works out to 14.6td/15int. During that time span he played with these pro-bowlers......

Shannon Sharp

Karl Mecklenburg

Steve Atwater

Dennis Smith

Mike Horan

Gaston Green

Greg Kragen

David Treadwell

Bobby Humphery

Michael Brooks

Those are just facts. You can remember the late 80's/early 90's any way you like but if a 55% completion rate and less TD's than INT's was his "golden era" I think that you might be making as strong a case as any of us that his legend is more fiction than fact at this point.

Just as a point of reference Blaine Gabbert has a career completion% of 56% and has thrown more TD's than INT's. Blaine Gabbert. 
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1988-1992:

Shannon Sharpe was a 7th rounder who made his first pro-bowl in 1992 after posting 53 receptions for 622 yards.  He was the Broncos leading receiver that year.

Gaston Green: pro-bowl in 1991, posting just over 1k yards in 13 games.  4.0 YPC.

Bobby Humphrey: i thought this dude was special.  >1100 yards in 1989 and 1990, before he held out, and was replaced by Green.  Got Traded to Miami and was never relevant again. 

That's your Bronco offensive pro-bowlers (besides Elway) between 1988 and 1992.  No WR, no OL.  3 pro-bowls in 5 seasons.  Still, one SB (killed by an all-time great team) and one AFCCG.

If you want to argue the defensive and ST players had an impact on Elways stats, have at it.

 
Anyone that ever makes an argument that a current day mediocre player has some better stats than a HOFer from a different generation needs to just stop and quit while they are behind. Just stop digging. Elway retired 2nd in career completions, 2nd in passing yards, and 3rd in passing TDs. He is still ranked 10th, 9th, and 12th in those categories 22 years later.

But Blake Bortles and Ryan Fitzpatrick have better passer ratings, Josh McCown and Chad Henne have better completion percentages, and Matt Schaub and Matt Cassel have better interception rates . . . so all those guys are better than Elway? Vinny Testaverde had more completions, passing yards, and passing TDs than Joe Montana. Testaverde must have been a better QB.

It gets worse the farther back you go when people want to compare current day QBs to 70's era QBs . . . when QBs and WRs got mauled and a 50% completion rate and more INTs than TDs was common. Context matters when discussing players from different eras of football.

 
And to follow up on what I referenced earlier, Brees has played 143 games indoors. Over his career, he's averaged +54.6 yards and +0.58 passing TD per game playing in a dome. By comparison, Tom Brady has played indoors only 22 times.

I am not going to get into a debate over who's better or ranking the all time top QB's (does it really matter?), but the point remains that Brees clearly benefited from playing in a climate controlled environment, on turf, in essentially perfect weather. Put another way, producing at the same rate of production, Brees would have 6,600+ fewer passing yards and 70 fewer passing TDs if he had only played indoors 22 times like Brady did. We can't change what actually happened, but just food for thought.

That doesn't mean Brees isn't an all-time great QB, but that certainly helped boost his career totals. Oddly enough, through age 34, Matt Ryan has more passing yards than Brees had at that age. Who knows how long Ryan will last and if he can continue to amass as many passing yards, but that should just be another indicator that putting up big career totals doesn't always mean a player was in the super top elite tier of all time greats. Ryan has been a very good QB, but I doubt many would put him in the best of the best class (at least not so far).

 
Anarchy99 said:
Anyone that ever makes an argument that a current day mediocre player has some better stats than a HOFer from a different generation needs to just stop and quit while they are behind.
Click to expand...
Why? What was the era in NFL football when getting more INT's than TD's was a positive.... let alone "legend" level? I'm not comparing the number of yards here. 

 
Truebluey said:
Those are your exact words.

NOW you're "clarifying" (backtracking).

Anyway, this thread is actually about Drew Brees. One of the all-time greats was brought up as a point of comparison. Whining about an all-time great doesn't lessen them, but it does lessen you.
Click to expand...
Wait, "NOW" I'm clarifying?

You made your comment that I said "Really? You're putting Blaine Gabbert above Elway?" at... Posted Wednesday at 05:33 AM

l literally posted, "And BTW, I'm certainly not saying Gabbert>elway" at... Posted Wednesday at 02:11 AM

Not really sure how else to explain this to you but 2:09AM actually occurs BEFORE 5:33AM. So we know reading and telling time are tough, what next? I completely agree that Drew Brees isn't the one in this thread that looks "less". Over. And over. But keep going. By all means.

Thanks for getting this thread back on track. Again, wonderful work.

 
IMO Elway was a bit overrated during his playing career, but he has become a bit underrated since he retired, thanks to inflation of passing statistics and all-time great QBs who have played after him, like Brady, Peyton, and, yes, Brees.

I don't think Brees is underrated at all. If anything, IMO he is a bit overrated due to the perfect storm referenced earlier that has really boosted his statistics (head coach Payton, high volume passing offense, generally strong surrounding skill players on offense, plays indoors, etc.). A good example of this is multiple posters in this thread saying Brees should have won MVP(s). That isn't true, there was at least one player who was more deserving of MVP in each case.

 
BoltBacker said:
Why? What was the era in NFL football when getting more INT's than TD's was a positive.... let alone "legend" level? I'm not comparing the number of yards here. 
Click to expand...
Obviously no one will argue that it is better to have more interceptions than touchdown passes. But the game today has I many advantages compared to past eras that people forget how tough it used to be to have an effective and efficient passing game. 

At a minimum, the following HOF QBs had at least a 1 to 1 TD to INT ratio over their careers and most were not even that good:  Title, Stabler, Namath, Blanda, Layne, Van Brockton, Baugh, Waterfield, Herber, and Parker. I didn’t look up the super old QBs. 

Many other HOF QBs had 4 or 5 seasons where they had more picks than TDs (or were even): Favre, Tarkenton, Fouts, Unitas, Aikman, Jurgensen, Dawson, Bradshaw, Griese, Starr, and Luckman. In today’s game, it’s very unlikely a QB could have 5 such seasons and still be in the league. 

Aaron Rodgers has a season recently where his INT Tate was 0.3% for the seasons. Forty or fifty years ago, 3% or 4% could lead the league. Go back 60 to 80 years and the league leader In INT% could have been 5% or 10%. 

That’s why I suggested that it is nearly impossible to compare players from different eras. The worst starting QB in the league now will put up numbers that would lap QBs from the distant past and many QBs from 40-50 years ago. We are already at the point where it is tough to compare QBs from even 20 years ago. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
Many other HOF QBs had 4 or 5 seasons where they had more picks than TDs (or were even): Favre, Tarkenton, Fouts, Unitas, Aikman, Jurgensen, Dawson, Bradshaw, Griese, Starr, and Luckman. In today’s game, it’s very unlikely a QB could have 5 such seasons and still be in the league. 

 
Click to expand...
Its also worth noting that, during that 5 year stretch, the Broncos appeared in two AFCCG, winning one.

I would be curious how many QBs have played in 2 championship games within a 5 year span...i bet its a small number.  Obviously, Elway has multiple 5 year spans (along with Bradshaw, Montana, Kelly, Manning, Brady, Graham, etc).  To bring it back to topic, Brees has gone to 2 championship games over a 5 year span once (2006, 2009).

 
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Just Win Baby said:
IMO Elway was a bit overrated during his playing career, but he has become a bit underrated since he retired, thanks to inflation of passing statistics and all-time great QBs who have played after him, like Brady, Peyton, and, yes, Brees.

I don't think Brees is underrated at all. If anything, IMO he is a bit overrated due to the perfect storm referenced earlier that has really boosted his statistics (head coach Payton, high volume passing offense, generally strong surrounding skill players on offense, plays indoors, etc.). A good example of this is multiple posters in this thread saying Brees should have won MVP(s). That isn't true, there was at least one player who was more deserving of MVP in each case.
Click to expand...
I thought Peyton and Brees were 1a and 1b in the MVP race in 2009, but otherwise I agree; I can't think of any other season where he had a strong case to be the MVP winner.  Definitely seasons where he was in the conversation (like top 3-5), but he has never had a season where he should have been the clear-cut winner and was robbed.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Just Win Baby said:
IMO Elway was a bit overrated during his playing career, but he has become a bit underrated since he retired, thanks to inflation of passing statistics and all-time great QBs who have played after him, like Brady, Peyton, and, yes, Brees.

I don't think Brees is underrated at all. If anything, IMO he is a bit overrated due to the perfect storm referenced earlier that has really boosted his statistics (head coach Payton, high volume passing offense, generally strong surrounding skill players on offense, plays indoors, etc.). A good example of this is multiple posters in this thread saying Brees should have won MVP(s). That isn't true, there was at least one player who was more deserving of MVP in each case.
Click to expand...
I thought Peyton and Brees were 1a and 1b in the MVP race in 2009, but otherwise I agree; I can't think of any other season where he had a strong case to be the MVP winner.  Definitely seasons where he was in the conversation (like top 3-5), but he has never had a season where he should have been the clear-cut winner and was robbed.
Click to expand...
Agree that 2009 was the closest Brees got, but I think Manning deserved it, as I described here.

 
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