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Ⅿ- Mandalorian Series! (1 Viewer)

This illustrates one of the errors of the new movies, IMO.

In the original trilogy, Vader's killings can be justified because none of his victims are 100% innocent. That's why audiences were able to accept his eventual redemption.

But then the prequels come along, and suddenly we've got Anakin killing baby sandpeople. Now it becomes a little harder for audiences to accept his redemption.

THEN, we get Kylo Ren ordering the murders of innocent villagers, not to mention the cold-hearted murder of his own father. It will be interesting to see if audiences will be as willing accept the redemption of Kylo (if that happens).
I think audiences like redemption stories and that's why audience accept Vader's redemption. I don't think it has to do with an analysis of the guilt or innocence of his victims. I haven't heard anyone's view change based on the prequels, but that gives me an interesting question to ask the nerdiest of my SW friends.

 
Can you recall another incident in any of the SW movies in which a protagonist committed murder and then got away with it?
What would need to happen to indicate to you he didn't get away with it? For example, you attribute Anakin's burning as him not getting away with murdering younglings or baby sand people. So, if the Jawas sneak attack Mando in a future episode and he suffers a good amount of pain, does that work for you?

 
This illustrates one of the errors of the new movies, IMO.

In the original trilogy, Vader's killings can be justified because none of his victims are 100% innocent. That's why audiences were able to accept his eventual redemption.

But then the prequels come along, and suddenly we've got Anakin killing baby sandpeople. Now it becomes a little harder for audiences to accept his redemption.

THEN, we get Kylo Ren ordering the murders of innocent villagers, not to mention the cold-hearted murder of his own father. It will be interesting to see if audiences will be as willing accept the redemption of Kylo (if that happens).
I think audiences like redemption stories and that's why audience accept Vader's redemption. I don't think it has to do with an analysis of the guilt or innocence of his victims. I haven't heard anyone's view change based on the prequels, but that gives me an interesting question to ask the nerdiest of my SW friends.
It would be an interesting experiment to find people who have only seen the prequels, and then ask them if Vader can be redeemed to the point where he's considered to be on equal footing with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 
Can you recall another incident in any of the SW movies in which a protagonist committed murder and then got away with it?
What would need to happen to indicate to you he didn't get away with it? For example, you attribute Anakin's burning as him not getting away with murdering younglings or baby sand people. So, if the Jawas sneak attack Mando in a future episode and he suffers a good amount of pain, does that work for you?
That's difficult to answer because I already know that Anakin eventually died, so he did suffer the ultimate consequence. Plus, he was being heavily manipulated by the Emperor.

I prefer the old rules of SW where evil deeds were met with an equal and opposite reaction. We haven't seen that yet on The Mandolorian. I understand that some people may like it, different floats for different boats, etc.

 
Can you recall another incident in any of the SW movies in which a protagonist committed murder and then got away with it?
I don’t know that he is a good guy. I hope he’s not to be honest. I’ll f’n die laughing if he cuts baby yoda in half tomorrow. 

 
I prefer the old rules of SW where evil deeds were met with an equal and opposite reaction. 
Luke, Leia, and company were rewarded handsomely for destroying the second Death Star, which was an evil deed. They killed thousands of innocent people and were not punished by fate or karma for it.
When you sign up to work for the Empire, it's like joining the SS in Germany during the war. Even if you don't commit evil yourself, you are still endorsing it.

Therefore, those killings are justified as per the rules of war.

If the Jawas had a history of murdering people, then you could justify Mando killing them. But their guns are permanently set to "stun"!

I could almost buy the "horse thief" argument, but his ship was in their territory without permission. That's a grey area, IMO.

 
Luke, Leia, and company were rewarded handsomely for destroying the second Death Star, which was an evil deed. They killed thousands of innocent people and were not punished by fate or karma for it.
Right.  How many construction workers were contracted to build that.  I doubt they were all Hitler-esque.  Or the help desk people trying to keep the network up and running on that thing.

 
When you sign up to work for the Empire, it's like joining the SS in Germany during the war. Even if you don't commit evil yourself, you are still endorsing it.

Therefore, those killings are justified as per the rules of war.

If the Jawas had a history of murdering people, then you could justify Mando killing them. But their guns are permanently set to "stun"!

I could almost buy the "horse thief" argument, but his ship was in their territory without permission. That's a grey area, IMO.
Ok.  Now I just think you're screwing with us.  

Can I ask what the acceptable response to the Jawas ripping his ship apart would be?  In your mind.

 
Luke, Leia, and company were rewarded handsomely for destroying the second Death Star, which was an evil deed. They killed thousands of innocent people and were not punished by fate or karma for it.
Right.  How many construction workers were contracted to build that.  I doubt they were all Hitler-esque.  Or the help desk people trying to keep the network up and running on that thing.
When you agree to work on a space station called The Death Star, you implicitly consent to the possibility that you will be blown up during a battle.

 
Also, that's a pretty hot take that working for the Empire is the equivalent of joining the SS.  

I'm not sure the janitor in one of the areas of the moon sized Death Star is the same as the people who hunted down and killed innocent Jews.  To me, those two things seem way different.

 
When you sign up to work for the Empire, it's like joining the SS in Germany during the war. Even if you don't commit evil yourself, you are still endorsing it.

Therefore, those killings are justified as per the rules of war.

If the Jawas had a history of murdering people, then you could justify Mando killing them. But their guns are permanently set to "stun"!

I could almost buy the "horse thief" argument, but his ship was in their territory without permission. That's a grey area, IMO.
Ok.  Now I just think you're screwing with us.  

Can I ask what the acceptable response to the Jawas ripping his ship apart would be?  In your mind.
In terms of the unwritten code of the Star Wars universe, the appropriate response would have been to attack the sandcrawler first. Then, if any Jawas threatened him, it would have been appropriate to vaporize them.

That's how things have always worked. Until now. This was the first time that a nonthreatening character was murdered by a protagonist who did not experience a consequence.

 
When you agree to work on a space station called The Death Star, you implicitly consent to the possibility that you will be blown up during a battle.
There are a lot of poor folk in the galaxy.  I think it's pretty heartless of you to think they should sacrifice feeding their family and turn down honest work.  

 
In ROTJ, Vader killed the Emperor and died himself before the Death Star was blown up. But, Luke, the "good guy" that he is, didn't bother to communicate that fact and possibly spare some very redeemable people on the Death Star. He was like "Really, what's most important is getting my dad's helmet and cloke and stuff off of here so I can burn them and give him a proper funeral. No need to try make sure these thousands and thousands of people aren't blown up. My relationship with my dad is more important than these people getting to go back to see their families."

 
In terms of the unwritten code of the Star Wars universe, the appropriate response would have been to attack the sandcrawler first. Then, if any Jawas threatened him, it would have been appropriate to vaporize them.

That's how things have always worked. Until now. This was the first time that a nonthreatening character was murdered by a protagonist who did not experience a consequence.
Why do you assume the Jawas are non threatening?  Maybe they killed his best friend.  How much do you know about the Jawas?  

 
I can't stop picturing a guy talking to his family like:

Guy: "I finally got a job, honey!  I'll be working at one of the Starbucks on the Death Star.  It pays 3 credits a day.  We no longer have to worry about our kids going hungry ever again."

Wife: "What?  How am I supposed to tell my father we work for the Empire?  I'd rather we go hungry than you work for our government that pretty much rules the entire galaxy and for the most part, everyone seems fairly happy with.  I mean, we've never had any issues with the Empire.  Our towns are safe and crime is down.  The only people who seem to be affected are the rebel scum.  I want a divorce!"

 
In terms of the unwritten code of the Star Wars universe, the appropriate response would have been to attack the sandcrawler first. Then, if any Jawas threatened him, it would have been appropriate to vaporize them.

That's how things have always worked. Until now. This was the first time that a nonthreatening character was murdered by a protagonist who did not experience a consequence.
Why do you assume the Jawas are non threatening?  Maybe they killed his best friend.  How much do you know about the Jawas?  
I assume Jawas are non-threatening because Uncle Owen wasn't threatened by them and because Luke couldn't understand why Imperial troops would want to slaughter them.

 
I assume Jawas are non-threatening because Uncle Owen wasn't threatened by them and because Luke couldn't understand why Imperial troops would want to slaughter them.
Yes.  They seemed to get along with that race.  But what about Mandolorians?  

 
In all seriousness, the Mandalorians are a race of warriors.  Bad-### warriors who are battle hardened and similar to the Spartans.  They don't fire warning shots.  They don't think "Talk first, shoot second."  If you cross a Mandalorian, there is going to be trouble because they won't think twice to kill you.

This guy isn't a good guy.  He may not be a bad guy either.  But he's definitely someone you don't cross.

 
I assume Jawas are non-threatening because Uncle Owen wasn't threatened by them and because Luke couldn't understand why Imperial troops would want to slaughter them.
The Jawas in The Mandalorian are from a completely different planet.   

Human beings on earth vary from next door neighbor to next door neighbor and you believe just because they are the same species from another planet they act in an identical manner?  

That doesn't seem logical to me.

 
I assume Jawas are non-threatening because Uncle Owen wasn't threatened by them and because Luke couldn't understand why Imperial troops would want to slaughter them.
The Jawas in The Mandalorian are from a completely different planet.   

Human beings on earth vary from next door neighbor to next door neighbor and you believe just because they are the same species from another planet they act in an identical manner?  
Even if we assume that these are a completely different species of Jawa, it still doesn't change the fact that the one dude wasn't posing a threat when the Mandalorian vaporized him.

That's a first for Star Wars.

 
Even if we assume that these are a completely different species of Jawa, it still doesn't change the fact that the one dude wasn't posing a threat when the Mandalorian vaporized him.

That's a first for Star Wars.
you say this like it is a bad thing. 

Growing your story lines beyond the most basic writing of "good and bad" should be welcomed by any long time fan.    An anti hero may be exactly what Star Wars needs to reinvigorate the fan base.

 
Even if we assume that these are a completely different species of Jawa, it still doesn't change the fact that the one dude wasn't posing a threat when the Mandalorian vaporized him.

That's a first for Star Wars.
but we've only ever gotten Star Wars from a certain point of view and now in this show we are getting a whole new point of view. Hopefully they do a series based on one of the empires senior leaders so we can start to get a good picture of who really are the good guys in this world.

 
but we've only ever gotten Star Wars from a certain point of view and now in this show we are getting a whole new point of view. Hopefully they do a series based on one of the empires senior leaders so we can start to get a good picture of who really are the good guys in this world.
I always thought, wouldn't it be crazy if we were rooting for the bad guys the whole time?  

 
Right.  How many construction workers were contracted to build that.  I doubt they were all Hitler-esque.  Or the help desk people trying to keep the network up and running on that thing.
Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.

Dante: Whose house was it?

Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.

Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?

Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.

Dante: Based on personal politics.

Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.

Randal: No way!

Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart)not his wallet.

 
Obviously Werner Herzog is pretty famous, I recognize the name but don't know what he looks like, but I recognized his voice (he plays the old dude who gives Mando the fob for baby Yoda) but couldn't place it, and it's been absolutely killing me for a week or so, and it finally hit me that it's from a Rick and Morty episode and I am seriously more relieved than I have ever been about anything in my whole life, I think I need help. 

 
but we've only ever gotten Star Wars from a certain point of view and now in this show we are getting a whole new point of view. Hopefully they do a series based on one of the empires senior leaders so we can start to get a good picture of who really are the good guys in this world.
I always thought, wouldn't it be crazy if we were rooting for the bad guys the whole time?  
My link

 
In all seriousness, the Mandalorians are a race of warriors.  Bad-### warriors who are battle hardened and similar to the Spartans.  They don't fire warning shots.  They don't think "Talk first, shoot second."  If you cross a Mandalorian, there is going to be trouble because they won't think twice to kill you.

This guy isn't a good guy.  He may not be a bad guy either.  But he's definitely someone you don't cross.
Mandalorians are the honey badgers of the universe.

 
Ok.  Now I just think you're screwing with us.  

Can I ask what the acceptable response to the Jawas ripping his ship apart would be?  In your mind.
He should have filed a report of the theft with the local barren desert planet authorities. That would have made a fascinating episode.  

 
Obviously Werner Herzog is pretty famous, I recognize the name but don't know what he looks like, but I recognized his voice (he plays the old dude who gives Mando the fob for baby Yoda) but couldn't place it, and it's been absolutely killing me for a week or so, and it finally hit me that it's from a Rick and Morty episode and I am seriously more relieved than I have ever been about anything in my whole life, I think I need help. 
Herzog is legendary in the film community. 

 
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I'm just so sick of people jumping on the "Vader is bad" bandwagon.  No one ever talks about all the good he did.  Guy is unifying the galaxy, creating millions of jobs for the people in it, and all we ever hear about is how he's killing rebels.  NEWS FLASH!  They call them "rebels" for a reason.  
The stock market did great

 
The bounty hunting droid, IG-11(in The Mandalorian), had a cameo in "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back".

 
Don’t you all remember that scene in 2 where Jar Jar Binks slaughters that entire village.  That dude was savage, and he was a protagonist.  

 
[scooter] said:
In the original trilogy, Vader's killings can be justified because none of his victims are 100% innocent. That's why audiences were able to accept his eventual redemption.
Does he get a pass for riding along with Tarkin as he blew up Alderaan?

 
Moe. said:
Obviously Werner Herzog is pretty famous, I recognize the name but don't know what he looks like, but I recognized his voice (he plays the old dude who gives Mando the fob for baby Yoda) but couldn't place it, and it's been absolutely killing me for a week or so, and it finally hit me that it's from a Rick and Morty episode and I am seriously more relieved than I have ever been about anything in my whole life, I think I need help. 
Who in R&M?  What episode?

 
[scooter] said:
Right. Han shot Greedo because Greedo was pointing a weapon at him and had threatened to kill him. The killing was justified.

But the Mandolorian shot Jawas who were not threatening him, and who (as far as we know) had never threatened to kill him. That's a new precedent in the SW universe.

One of the unwritten codes in the SW universe -- and really it's one of the unwritten rules of modern fiction -- is that you can't glorify murder or else you're gonna lose the audience.

In fact, the old Hays Code specifically addressed this ("If someone performed an immoral act, they had to be punished on screen").

Obviously, no one is expected to follow that code today. But the principles of the code have a basis in reality: audiences don't like it when perceived good guys do bad things. It's a turnoff.

And George Lucas inherently understood this, which is why he never had any of this good guys commit acts of evil. They only killed killers (or people who actively supported killers). That's why he changed "Han shoots first" -- because he was disturbed by the idea of one of the heroes of his story committing murder.

To me, it's a little sad to see Star Wars lowering the bar and delving into a territory that it had strived to avoid for the past 42 years.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back the truck up here. First off, the whole thing about he found their village and was indescriminately murdering jawas is not at all what happened. Anakin did that with Sand people/Tusken raiders. Mando did not do that with Jawas. Jawas were stripping his ship. Essentially stranding him on a dessert planet. One could argue that alone was a threat to his life. The only Jawas he shot were either carrying pieces of the ship or were shooting at him. Again, self defense could be argued on both counts. 

And what is this crap about audiences don't like it when perceived good guys do bad things? Walter White was a chemistry teacher with a disabled son and a new baby on the way and had to do some pretty nasty stuff to look after his family. Vic Mackey was a cop just trying to take down bad guys and earn a living. Tony Soprano was a mild mannered waste management consultant that had to do some things here and there to provide for his family. Dexter Morgan is just a guy trying to solve crimes and get criminals off the street (and into coffins). I could go on for days here. The time of black and white, good and bad, are over. Exploring the gray areas with characters has spawned some  of the most iconic shows on TV over the last 15-20 years. 

Oh, and there's one more aspect of this. It happened a long time ago an a galaxy far, far away. Are you really upset about the fictional murders of the fictional aliens on the fictional planet in the fictional galaxy? This reminds me of when my kid wants to argue the physics behind Spongebob. "Why do they go to the beach in spongebob? Why is patrick the moron? Sponges don't have brains. Why do they go eat at a crab shack that is actually a crab trap?" 

 

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