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14 Killed in Shooting in San Bernardino (1 Viewer)

You know what, I don't think I'm buying the crime scene was all cleaned up explanation. This is an international terrorism investigation with 2 score people injured, 15 dead. No. The investigators might find new evidence that requires them to go back. It could happen. At a minimum they should have kept the press out. This is a major screw up.

And the family has hired a true screwball, conspiracy nut full on :tinfoilhat: attorney.
Let's say you're right, that they did screw up.What possible evidence left behind could be used in the future? The FBI has the electronics, the weapons, the dead shooters, the pipe bombs, the bomb making equipment and anything else they would use. No one is going to court, they are dead. If it's a conspiracy, the electronic data and crime scene evidence collected will bear all that out.

So what evidence is in that house that could be helpful in two months? Hit list hidden in a potato?

 
It's perfectly fine to report suspicious behavior. But what is suspicious behavior? If one of the components to that behavior is the appearance of the person doing it (Middle Eastern in this discussion) then it's not fine.

In other words if you report a Middle Eastern looking person doing something you regard as suspicious, but would not report a white person that was doing the EXACT SAME THING, then you're acting in a bigoted manner, and it's not OK.
Treating one group of people differently than another is not bigotry when there is reason for the disparate treatment that doesn't involve hate or intolerance.
Hear hear! Where do I sign the petition to put them all in concentration camps?

 
That press conference by the family was despicable. We don't want to hear you even trying to defend these losers.

 
You know what, I don't think I'm buying the crime scene was all cleaned up explanation. This is an international terrorism investigation with 2 score people injured, 15 dead. No. The investigators might find new evidence that requires them to go back. It could happen. At a minimum they should have kept the press out. This is a major screw up.

And the family has hired a true screwball, conspiracy nut full on :tinfoilhat: attorney.
Let's say you're right, that they did screw up.What possible evidence left behind could be used in the future? The FBI has the electronics, the weapons, the dead shooters, the pipe bombs, the bomb making equipment and anything else they would use. No one is going to court, they are dead. If it's a conspiracy, the electronic data and crime scene evidence collected will bear all that out.

So what evidence is in that house that could be helpful in two months? Hit list hidden in a potato?
DD, I don't know. I know you got your information first hand, so I don't doubt that, but your friend/colleague has seen this done in a terrorism investigation? - It just seems kind of crazy to me to completely waive all opportunity to go back, check for new fibers, new fingerprints, hair, skin or DNA, pictures, anything. The feds have completely waived it. Actually it seems somewhat reckless, hypothetically, what if they find out another person was involved in the bomb scene, what if they want to go back to find those specific prints, what if there is some odd chemical or material that arises in the course of the investigation, you would personally waive your ability to ever, ever go back and see what else is there if you wanted to by letting the entire scene be contaminated?

The assistant FBI director says that there is an ongoing terrorism investigation and says he released the house to total contamination all in one breath.

 
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Two interesting things that came out in the last two hours:

--at least one of the assault rifles used in the shooting was converted to fully automatic with s tool that apparently isn't that hard to acquire.

-all those documents that were in the house that everyone Is sooooo worried about, belonged to the mother of the shooter. She lived with the shooters and is not a suspect.
Because..... she could have lived with them in a 900 sf house while they were making bombs, weaponizing and plotting a 12 pipe bomb, militarized 30 victim terrorism spree without knowing about it?

 
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....and it does seem completely insane that they are allowing hoards of media to tour the apartment an touch evidence. The guy just picked up some gun cleaner wtf.

 
How does this lawyer have a career after this?
He actually manages to insult not just one group of victims, but another:

Lawyer For San Bernardino Gunman's Family Floats Sandy Hook Trutherism...

Appearing alongside attorney Mohammad Abuershaid, David Chesley said there were “a lot of questions” in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut shooting, where 20 children and 6 adults were killed. Abuershaid and Chesley have been identified as attorneys representing the Farook family.

“There was a lot of questions drawn with regards to Sandy Hook and whether or not that was a real incident or not. We just don't know,” Chesley said, in video published Friday by British tabloid The Daily Mail.

The Mail reported that Chesley, asked directly if he questioned the attack at Sandy Hook, said: “There has been a lot [sic] speculation about it is all I would say.”

Regarding the weapons cache police said was recovered after the shooting, which included more than 1,400 rounds of ammunition and 12 pipe bombs, Chesley said: “Obviously, these things were found there, how they got there we don’t know.”

...
Take crazy, sick and :tinfoilhat: x :crazy: x :toilet: and wrap it in a burrito and that's what you have here.

 
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Two interesting things that came out in the last two hours:

--at least one of the assault rifles used in the shooting was converted to fully automatic with s tool that apparently isn't that hard to acquire.

-all those documents that were in the house that everyone Is sooooo worried about, belonged to the mother of the shooter. She lived with the shooters and is not a suspect.
Because..... she could have lived with them in a 900 sf house while they were making bombs, weaponizing and plotting a 12 pipe bomb, militarized 30 victim terrorism spree without knowing about it?
Wasn't that in the garage though?They questioned her for seven hours (according to family lawyers) and she was released.

 
It's perfectly fine to report suspicious behavior. But what is suspicious behavior? If one of the components to that behavior is the appearance of the person doing it (Middle Eastern in this discussion) then it's not fine.

In other words if you report a Middle Eastern looking person doing something you regard as suspicious, but would not report a white person that was doing the EXACT SAME THING, then you're acting in a bigoted manner, and it's not OK.
Treating one group of people differently than another is not bigotry when there is reason for the disparate treatment that doesn't involve hate or intolerance.
Hear hear! Where do I sign the petition to put them all in concentration camps?
Hold on there a sec. You are really going to put a crimp in my falafel consumption with this kind of thinking.

 
Two interesting things that came out in the last two hours:

--at least one of the assault rifles used in the shooting was converted to fully automatic with s tool that apparently isn't that hard to acquire.

-all those documents that were in the house that everyone Is sooooo worried about, belonged to the mother of the shooter. She lived with the shooters and is not a suspect.
Single mother. Guess that explains it.

 
It's perfectly fine to report suspicious behavior. But what is suspicious behavior? If one of the components to that behavior is the appearance of the person doing it (Middle Eastern in this discussion) then it's not fine.

In other words if you report a Middle Eastern looking person doing something you regard as suspicious, but would not report a white person that was doing the EXACT SAME THING, then you're acting in a bigoted manner, and it's not OK.
Treating one group of people differently than another is not bigotry when there is reason for the disparate treatment that doesn't involve hate or intolerance.
Hear hear! Where do I sign the petition to put them all in concentration camps?
Hold on there a sec. You are really going to put a crimp in my falafel consumption with this kind of thinking.
Sorry. I meant to type internment camps. My improved German has relulted in me speaking two languages poorly. Can't even think anymore.

 
You know what, I don't think I'm buying the crime scene was all cleaned up explanation. This is an international terrorism investigation with 2 score people injured, 15 dead. No. The investigators might find new evidence that requires them to go back. It could happen. At a minimum they should have kept the press out. This is a major screw up.

And the family has hired a true screwball, conspiracy nut full on :tinfoilhat: attorney.
Let's say you're right, that they did screw up.What possible evidence left behind could be used in the future? The FBI has the electronics, the weapons, the dead shooters, the pipe bombs, the bomb making equipment and anything else they would use. No one is going to court, they are dead. If it's a conspiracy, the electronic data and crime scene evidence collected will bear all that out.

So what evidence is in that house that could be helpful in two months? Hit list hidden in a potato?
DD, I don't know. I know you got your information first hand, so I don't doubt that, but your friend/colleague has seen this done in a terrorism investigation? - It just seems kind of crazy to me to completely waive all opportunity to go back, check for new fibers, new fingerprints, hair, skin or DNA, pictures, anything. The feds have completely waived it. Actually it seems somewhat reckless, hypothetically, what if they find out another person was involved in the bomb scene, what if they want to go back to find those specific prints, what if there is some odd chemical or material that arises in the course of the investigation, you would personally waive your ability to ever, ever go back and see what else is there if you wanted to by letting the entire scene be contaminated?

The assistant FBI director says that there is an ongoing terrorism investigation and says he released the house to total contamination all in one breath.
1. You are assuming they don't have all the DNA and other evidence they need. This isn't 1985 like I said before, and this isn't some damn police outfit from Bum####, Wyoming. It's the FBI, they do this every day on the biggest cases in this country. Drug cartels, murder for hire, terrorism, mass shootings, serial killers, etc.

2. You are assuming that because it is a terrorism case that it is somehow more inherently difficult than any other case. It isn't. Try a case over the course of months/years with wiretaps, bodies, drugs, and weapons. This is nothing, and no less than 24 FBI agents were on scene in Cali.

3. The perpetrators are dead, meaning no court. That is huge. That means their threshold for evidence is much lower, but this is not to say they didn't get everything they needed.

4. You don't know how they clear the house, gather evidence, or what equipment they use.

5. The garage was off limits to the press, not sure by whose order. That seemed to be the center stage of the evidence.

The guy I called was undercover in biker gangs and in murder for hire investigations, he's got 20 years as a federal agent and feels comfortable with what happened today. The most important evidence is likely the electronic communications, the bomb material, the guns, and those people who had contact with the shooters. That will all be run to ground, and there will be absolutely no reason to go back to the house.

Like I said earlier, arson crime scenes with bodies is probably the most challenging crime scene. Ask yourself this. Once the investigation is over what happens to the scene? It's knocked down, sometimes within days. They can't go back to get any more evidence or information, that's why they are so damn thorough the first time.

I've worked several federal investigations in the last 18 months, but I will admit I know little of the FBI's processes, outside what I saw at the Baltimore riot scenes. But the people I work with say the FBI although arrogant and self-important, are really good at police work. I'll take their word for it.

 
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Just so I got this straight. It's only terrorism if ISIS comes out and says "oh hey that was us"?

And these terrorists are now in full victim mode? They were a loving couple who have been framed? This #### is spiraling out of control. This lunatic ####### lawyer shouldn't be allowed to speak, let alone on tv.

 
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1. The targeted individuals were co-workers of the man. That's not very random. Okay, maybe I'm an extra 1% more vigilant about my coworkers behavior for the next couple weeks till I forget all about it.
Just saw on TV that the shooter got into a heated argument with a devout Christian co-worker about whether Islam was a religion of peace. That co-worker was among the 14 killed. One wonders if the target changed, given the vast array of guns and explosives found.
If these two people were terrorists, maybe not even assigned a mission, target, or timeframe yet, but were willing to sacrifice their grand plan over a petty argument with a coworker, it just adds fuel to the fire they got their freshman team working American soil.9/11 changed the way we live; that was the 1980 American Hockey Miracle on Ice for Muslism terrorism. This just reinforces that on a strategic level, they're back to the stone-age on American soil. The biggest threat terrorist groups are is most likely to our soldiers deployed to the countries they operate in.
Maybe Wednesdays attack was the Columbine for radical Muslims and it becomes more frequent moving forward. :shrug:

Regardless, I still feel I have a better chance at winning the Powerball than I do at being a victim of a mass shooting. I don't plan my day around winning millions, and I won't plan my day around being shot at.
It's a great sentiment. Bald Eagles and American Pride and Freedom and all that.

Except at some point maybe it does have an impact on how you live your life. We're now confronting mass attacks on, what, a monthly basis? What if it's weekly? Would that impact you? What if it becomes daily attacks? That change anything? Pretty soon you wake up one day and you find yourself living in Beirut.
People die in car accidents every day. Other than wearing a seat belt, I didn't really change anything over the past 30 years to prevent myself from becoming a victim. Maybe someday I'll find my self too scared to push the garage door opener and back the car out. But it will be a long time after that, when the fear of mass shootings keeps me at home.

 
You know what, I don't think I'm buying the crime scene was all cleaned up explanation. This is an international terrorism investigation with 2 score people injured, 15 dead. No. The investigators might find new evidence that requires them to go back. It could happen. At a minimum they should have kept the press out. This is a major screw up.

And the family has hired a true screwball, conspiracy nut full on :tinfoilhat: attorney.
What is weird to me is that the shootout scene where it all ended is still cordoned off and as of a couple hours ago they were still escorting residents to their homes. I would think the home is infinitely more important and needs a fine tooth comb than a shot up SUV.

Not saying the FBI didn't do their job and I am obviously not trained in these things...but it seems a little bit odd in my mind.

 
I personally, like to stick to original term definitions, but I am wondering why terrorism specifies an underlying political motive? What are we to call the people who terrorize others just because they are warped, mean, demented etc?
Because there is a fundamental difference between a gangbanger or a mentally ill person engaging in deadly acts versus a radicalized Muslim. Or am I in the minority on this and most everybody thinks that there isn't a bit of difference?
I'm not sure. There seems to be a lot of hesitance to label things "terrorist". Personally? I think anyone terrorizing someone else is a terrorist, but the actual definition has this political element and it has me wondering how it got there because terror and terrorize don't have that political element. Seems like there's a disconnect :oldunsure:
It's pretty much the same deal as sexist/sexism not meaning the same thing as sex or sexy.
I'd probably be on board with this if being terrorized only applied to fear in political frameworks, but the political element isn't required to be terrorized. I don't know....doesn't really matter. Something stupid that I was thinking about while boozing it up a couple nights ago :mellow:

 
Just so I got this straight. It's only terrorism if ISIS comes out and says "oh hey that was us"?

And these terrorists are now in full victim mode? They were a loving couple who have been framed? This #### is spiraling out of control. This lunatic ####### lawyer shouldn't be allowed to speak, let alone on tv.
I don't get why people won't call it what it is.....I assume just because they are Obama supporters and he does everything he can to avoid it?

 
Just so I got this straight. It's only terrorism if ISIS comes out and says "oh hey that was us"?

And these terrorists are now in full victim mode? They were a loving couple who have been framed? This #### is spiraling out of control. This lunatic ####### lawyer shouldn't be allowed to speak, let alone on tv.
I don't get why people won't call it what it is.....I assume just because they are Obama supporters and he does everything he can to avoid it?
this has been going on for ages. ie neville chamberlain for example.

its more of a lack of framework to define the world around you. if you believe in shades of grey and no absolutes, labelling somethingg as "evil" just doesn't really fit your mindset. I mean, John Kerry explained to us all that the shooters had a "rationale" for shooting the jews in Paris last year. He's apparently able to empathize with terrorists and see things from their view, even if that view is what most people would call evil. When Hitler put people in cattle cars, gunned down towns of Jews and buried them in pits, and gassed millions in concentration camps, many common folk just went along with it, they didn't care, or were willfully ignorant, or if you're like some, just didn't have a framework for understanding absolute evil.

it doesn't really matter what they call it. We know what it is and that's all that matters.

 
Just so I got this straight. It's only terrorism if ISIS comes out and says "oh hey that was us"?

And these terrorists are now in full victim mode? They were a loving couple who have been framed? This #### is spiraling out of control. This lunatic ####### lawyer shouldn't be allowed to speak, let alone on tv.
I don't get why people won't call it what it is.....I assume just because they are Obama supporters and he does everything he can to avoid it?
this has been going on for ages. ie neville chamberlain for example.

its more of a lack of framework to define the world around you. if you believe in shades of grey and no absolutes, labelling somethingg as "evil" just doesn't really fit your mindset. I mean, John Kerry explained to us all that the shooters had a "rationale" for shooting the jews in Paris last year. He's apparently able to empathize with terrorists and see things from their view, even if that view is what most people would call evil. When Hitler put people in cattle cars, gunned down towns of Jews and buried them in pits, and gassed millions in concentration camps, many common folk just went along with it, they didn't care, or were willfully ignorant, or if you're like some, just didn't have a framework for understanding absolute evil.

it doesn't really matter what they call it. We know what it is and that's all that matters.
“Stop smoking so much. It’s a sign of weakness. You know how Hitler got Neville Chamberlain to give him everything in Munich? He held a conference at an old palace that forbids smoking. And after an hour and a half of not smoking, Neville Chamberlain would have given Hitler his mother as a dance partner.” (Bertram Cooper)

 
Seems weird the owner let all the press in the house. Did he charge admittance fee? I would have thought the family would have wanted to get in there,especially mom.

 
Seems weird the owner let all the press in the house. Did he charge admittance fee? I would have thought the family would have wanted to get in there,especially mom.
I could be totally wrong...wouldn't be the first time...but I thought I saw that the "press" just sort of barged in.
Press could have told the owner that if he didn't let them in, they'd splash his name and face all over the news.

 
I just got home and watched that presser, the family lawyer really went full conspiracy theory? I might have to listen to the twilight zone theme until I pass out.

 
How could anyone be a Sandy Hook "truther?" I'm not sure I can fully grasp that mindset, or how anyone could logically come to that conclusion. These people believe Sandy Hook didn't happen at all? Maybe they should talk to the dead kid's parents?

 
How could anyone be a Sandy Hook "truther?" I'm not sure I can fully grasp that mindset, or how anyone could logically come to that conclusion. These people believe Sandy Hook didn't happen at all? Maybe they should talk to the dead kid's parents?
I know, it is completely nuts. From the linked article http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/david-chesley-sandy-hook-truther:

“There was a lot of questions drawn with regards to Sandy Hook and whether or not that was a real incident or not. We just don't know,” Chesley said, in video published Friday by British tabloid The Daily Mail.

The Mail reported that Chesley, asked directly if he questioned the attack at Sandy Hook, said: “There has been a lot [sic] speculation about it is all I would say.”
 
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I just got home and watched that presser, the family lawyer really went full conspiracy theory? I might have to listen to the twilight zone theme until I pass out.
Caroline ‏@CarolineCJoseph



@joanwalsh it gets even worse: Atty David Chesley is a #SandyHook truther:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/david-chesley-sandy-hook-truther …
After clicking on that sandyhook link you posted Im sure the world is going to end due to some damned foolish thing posted on twitter. Social media will be the end of us.

 
These truthertards are wayyyy more common than you would think... Scary how they can think the way they do. Always ask similar question of "how many people would have to be in on this conspiracy, and how is it possible NOBODY cracked?" The answer is always some vague "I don't trust the government, they are capable of anything" then changing the topic to some other crackpot facet of the man" controlling people.

Odd ducks. Not sure how many of them haven't choked to death on their tongues by now.

 
These truthertards are wayyyy more common than you would think... Scary how they can think the way they do. Always ask similar question of "how many people would have to be in on this conspiracy, and how is it possible NOBODY cracked?" The answer is always some vague "I don't trust the government, they are capable of anything" then changing the topic to some other crackpot facet of the man" controlling people.

Odd ducks. Not sure how many of them haven't choked to death on their tongues by now.
Conspiracies usually rise out of confused, defensive, misguided, paranoid people that have no direct connection to the situation. This is coming directly from the family.

 
Some 25-year-old, unemployed, Army Reservist learned me up on the NVA and how the majority of people in Poland prior to the Nazi invasion were Jews.

I can walk away from things like that, guy was a moron (I made several slights at his High School education that he took as compliments FWIW). Someone telling me the Holocaust or Sandy Hook never happened, I'm ####### getting medieval on those people. I just don't care enough not to confront people on that kind of thing.

I mean this lawyer went to school, becoming a lawyer is a lot of work. Is it part shtick to corner the crazy market? I guess I can respect that, getting ahead and all.

 

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