To be fair, I think you are underestimating the amount of viewers who are thinking that question themselves. The journalist herself might acknowledge it's a dumb question, but still have to ask it.
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150+ people unaccounted for in Miami Beach/Surfside Collapse of Apt/Condo Building...Death Toll rising (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
- Start date
Structural engineer here -
1) Buildings are designed to stand, not come down. While it is true that some structures have a design life, ideally that is hundreds of years, not 40.
2) Based on the way this building collapsed, I would wager that the foundations had something to do with it. I think I saw somewhere that there was adjacent construction recently. As volatile as the soil conditions in this area are (to my understanding anyway), that likely had something to do with it. If it was a single column or member that failed, it could have taken out a bay, potentially with adjacent bays of the building, but most likely only up to the next column line. This looks like someone "swept the leg" of that portion of the structure.
Just my 2 cents. Terrible tragedy and a good lesson on the need for inspections and deep consideration of construction.
Turk
1) Buildings are designed to stand, not come down. While it is true that some structures have a design life, ideally that is hundreds of years, not 40.
2) Based on the way this building collapsed, I would wager that the foundations had something to do with it. I think I saw somewhere that there was adjacent construction recently. As volatile as the soil conditions in this area are (to my understanding anyway), that likely had something to do with it. If it was a single column or member that failed, it could have taken out a bay, potentially with adjacent bays of the building, but most likely only up to the next column line. This looks like someone "swept the leg" of that portion of the structure.
Just my 2 cents. Terrible tragedy and a good lesson on the need for inspections and deep consideration of construction.
Turk
John Pistorino, who investigated the FIU pedestrian bridge collapse, was struck by how the collapse started in the center of the building. There should be lots of limestone not too far below the surface. This link to the new Hadid 700 foot residential tower in downtown Miami gives some insight into the mixture of sand and limestone below the surface at a site 15 miles away. In the Hadid building, some pilings were 170 feet deep. I used to live about a mile south and 2 miles west of Champlain Towers and could see limestone rock a few feet below the surface when they did sewer projects.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
First fatality confirmed as the mother of the boy we all saw saved on video. Stacie Fang - 54. 
At least 4 dead, up to 159 missing.
At least 4 dead, up to 159 missing.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I saw an interview with one of the residents, and she said that there were always puddles of water in the basement garage even when it hadn't been raining. That is not good.
I get the impression that both lawsuits and criminal prosecution are going to be coming shortly.
I get the impression that both lawsuits and criminal prosecution are going to be coming shortly.
GoBirds
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
JaxBill
Footballguy
Concern for twin Condo tower just North
Also in that link- search teams are dealing with fire in the rubble.
Also in that link- search teams are dealing with fire in the rubble.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
of course conspiracy theorists are all over this
"just like 9/11" seriously?
"you can see the detonations in the video clip"
"McAfee was staying there and had proof of ______; he didn't kill himself"
"just like 9/11" seriously?
"you can see the detonations in the video clip"
"McAfee was staying there and had proof of ______; he didn't kill himself"
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I'd imagined every older building in the entire area is being emergency inspected. Bet this isn't the only other one there are concerns about.
JaxBill
Footballguy
my favorite is that it was caused by Navy ship explosion since it was "only 100 miles off Florida coast".of course conspiracy theorists are all over this
"just like 9/11" seriously?
"you can see the detonations in the video clip"
"McAfee was staying there and had proof of ______; he didn't kill himself"
Explosion was 100 miles off Ponce Inlet by Daytona. So more like 300+ miles away.
JaxBill
Footballguy
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
link lot more in the article, just a few quotes from it here.
"Search and rescue efforts Saturday at the site of a collapsed condominium building in Florida were hindered by a deep, smoldering fire amid the rubble.
Officials said they still don’t know exactly how many residents or visitors were in the building when it fell, but are still trying to locate 156 people who were considered unaccounted for and may or may not have been inside. Five people were killed.
Earlier in the day, an engineering report from 2018 was released that said the oceanfront building had "major structural damage" to a concrete structural slab below its pool deck."
just awful
"Search and rescue efforts Saturday at the site of a collapsed condominium building in Florida were hindered by a deep, smoldering fire amid the rubble.
Officials said they still don’t know exactly how many residents or visitors were in the building when it fell, but are still trying to locate 156 people who were considered unaccounted for and may or may not have been inside. Five people were killed.
Earlier in the day, an engineering report from 2018 was released that said the oceanfront building had "major structural damage" to a concrete structural slab below its pool deck."
just awful
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I live a mile away from the Champlain Towers. It's truly been an awful few days. One of my son's classmates is, along with her entire family, among the unaccounted for. Not only have I all but given up hope of there being any more survivors, but between the pancaked floors and smoldering fires I'm getting the sense it may be awhile before they're even able to positively ID most of the remains.
gianmarco
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Appreciate that. I didn't know the family at all, and I don't think my son was very close with the girl. He and my wife are currently traveling, and I think she's told him about the collapse but is waiting until there's confirmation before telling him about his classmate.
Gotta say, though, that I've also been having some minor PTSD flashbacks all week. I was living in NY on 9/11, and a few years ago I lost a close relative in a train derailment where we had about 24 hours of this "unaccounted for" torture before they were finally able to confirm her death. I feel so badly for these family members I keep seeing on TV with their loved ones' pictures. I'm sure they all know at this point that the odds are slim to none that any survivors will be found, but of course until you know for sure you have to hold on to some level of hope. It's truly the kind of experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I made the mistake of reading the replies to a tweet by Mayor Levine Cava. Lots of people asking those types of dumb questions. I loved this person's response:
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
Uwe Blab
Footballguy
Probably one of the best aggregates of all info we have/know so far. https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/o7s500/room_711_actual_location_ring_camera_footage_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Graphic on reddit as well showing the apparent collapse progression. Helps with reading along with the above thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/o7iynn/progression_of_the_miami_condo_collapse_based_on/
Graphic on reddit as well showing the apparent collapse progression. Helps with reading along with the above thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/o7iynn/progression_of_the_miami_condo_collapse_based_on/
culdeus
Footballguy
Would caution that early on everyone thought this was post tension type construction, now it's just standard re-bar. A lot of information will come out over time.
That being said it's pretty safe to speculate now that something happened, then 2-3 minutes later everything fell down. One family was quick enough to escape certain death in that intervening 2 minutes. One lady got on the phone with her family, rather than fleeing and died. Very sad. So what happened in those 2 minutes?
This is looking a lot like it lost a column over the parking lot shearing it from the platforms and their rebar, then the load redistributed, and where there wasn't sufficient span it went to the ground shortly thereafter. Stuff that has enough spanning stayed up, and might stay up until they demolish it. That's going to be a big clue right there.
culdeus
Footballguy
Yes, and the lady calling her husband said the pool had emptied all it's water out. Only realistic place it would end up is in the parking garage. So whatever happened at least disturbed the pool enough to empty the water out.
This is setting up to be one of those things where there are like 5 steps to this happening and step 2 will be the easiest to figure out.
Senor Schmutzig
Footballguy
We have lived in Miami for 11 years and I am still amazed what a small town Miami is despite being a major metropolitan city. Once I heard about this tragedy happening, I knew there was going to be some sort of personal connection because of the small town feel that pervades here. Sure enough, one of the boys that played in a baseball tournament this weekend with my son was best friends with the 15-yo that was pulled from the wreckage on the first day (and whose mother passed yesterday). There are also multiple people that are still missing that have connections to my son's school. Multiple degrees of separation, but it still hurts to see the devastating impacts on families, friends and acquaintances in our town.ignatiusjreilly said:
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I was away in St Pete for a few days visiting my son, wasn't really dialed in to anything internet/TV related, I've updated the thread title.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I am just catching up, briefly went thru what has to be one of the most through gathering of evidence on something like this...it didn't come down and nobody saw it happened, we have videos, eye witness accounts, more pics and videos, news that there was a loud cracking noise waking folks up the previous night...it's a real shame this happened but it also seems like there was a little advance warning and even the night of, they are saying there was a 1-2-3 minute delay in there from when the first crack of the end starts and the building actually falls, it's like a horror show and I want to be clear, there are LOTS of these buildings up and down the beach in Dade County going all the way up to Aventura and beyond, I would want to have my building inspected if I owned a unit anywhere up and down Miami Beach right now, also want to stress to those who don't live down here, this was NOT SOUTH BEACH although it's not that far from there but it is several miles North of there.Uwe Blab said:
It's ALL CONDOs up and down Miami Beach, and there are lots that were built around this time, Miami officials are notorious for taking bribes and the folks who likely did all these terrible things are long gone by now or very very old. The word is officials were bought off to look the other way and not ask questions and then contractors cut corners or things simply were not kept up. Tragic all the way for the home owners.
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The Big Donkey
Footballguy
Champlain former maintenance manager: saltwater issue
“I was there from 1995 to about 2000"
“Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”
“The water would just basically sit there and then it would just seep downward,” Espinosa said. “It would just go away after a while. And I would think, where does that water go? Because it had to go in through somewhere. I’m talking about a foot, sometimes two feet of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot.
The cause of the collapse will likely take months to determine, but the condo association’s attorney said after the collapse building managers discovered a large hole under the building which may have been caused by saltwater intrusion. Other experts have also suggested that whatever caused that building to fail happened at the base of the building and underneath it.
Water, particularly saltwater, is extremely corrosive, experts say, especially in older concrete which is more porous than the type of concrete used today. The saltwater attacks the pillars and foundation and when it dries, salt crystals slowly eat their way into the concrete eventually damaging the steel and rebar. As that rebar rusts, it expands, causing the concrete around it to crack and chip away. In turn that exposes more rebar, which also rusts and expands, creating a cycle that can ultimately cause the structure to fail. It can take years, or even decades for that to happen.
“I was there from 1995 to about 2000"
“Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”
“The water would just basically sit there and then it would just seep downward,” Espinosa said. “It would just go away after a while. And I would think, where does that water go? Because it had to go in through somewhere. I’m talking about a foot, sometimes two feet of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot.
The cause of the collapse will likely take months to determine, but the condo association’s attorney said after the collapse building managers discovered a large hole under the building which may have been caused by saltwater intrusion. Other experts have also suggested that whatever caused that building to fail happened at the base of the building and underneath it.
Water, particularly saltwater, is extremely corrosive, experts say, especially in older concrete which is more porous than the type of concrete used today. The saltwater attacks the pillars and foundation and when it dries, salt crystals slowly eat their way into the concrete eventually damaging the steel and rebar. As that rebar rusts, it expands, causing the concrete around it to crack and chip away. In turn that exposes more rebar, which also rusts and expands, creating a cycle that can ultimately cause the structure to fail. It can take years, or even decades for that to happen.
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Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed this damage in garage
>>There was nothing unusual about the lobby and pool area at Champlain Towers South Condo, which looked clean and well maintained to a commercial pool contractor who visited the building last Tuesday, just 36 hours before half of the building unexpectedly collapsed. Then, he saw the basement-level garage.
“There was standing water all over the parking garage,” the contractor, who asked not to be named, told the Miami Herald. He noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.
He also took photos, which he shared with the Herald.<<
I have 2 coworkers who live in ocean-front condos, one at 55th and Collins, the other on Key Biscayne. They're gonna look for spalling damage and exposed rebar in their parking garages. Spalling is a new word for them.
>>There was nothing unusual about the lobby and pool area at Champlain Towers South Condo, which looked clean and well maintained to a commercial pool contractor who visited the building last Tuesday, just 36 hours before half of the building unexpectedly collapsed. Then, he saw the basement-level garage.
“There was standing water all over the parking garage,” the contractor, who asked not to be named, told the Miami Herald. He noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.
He also took photos, which he shared with the Herald.<<
I have 2 coworkers who live in ocean-front condos, one at 55th and Collins, the other on Key Biscayne. They're gonna look for spalling damage and exposed rebar in their parking garages. Spalling is a new word for them.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed this damage in garage
I'm very deliberately not rushing to any conclusions, mostly because I don't really understand this stuff very well, but also because there's no reason not to wait until we have all the facts. Still, it feels like we're starting to zero in on what may have happened.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
FYI, once that page comes up, if you hit the ESC key, you can still scroll the page and read/view pics without unblocking ads. Just discovered that by pure accident.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Update: The classmate's father was one of the bodies ID'd yesterday.ignatiusjreilly said:
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
'Significantly worse': Doomed Miami condo's concrete deterioration was accelerating in April, condo letter says
Sounds like people were aware of the structural issues but part of the delay was a reluctance to pay the hefty price tag for repairs. I am sympathetic to the "20/20 hindsight" issues at play here. No one likes paying assessments, and obviously, if people had realized the building was in danger of imminent collapse they would have moved heaven and earth to do something about it. Then again, it's the job of a condo association to take care of these types of long-term issues. Anyway, I'm reserving any final judgments until we have all the facts.
culdeus
Footballguy
Let's be honest. Condo association and hoa are staffed by people with too much time on their hands, this situation was way out of their lane. This was a code type issue that should have required the govt. To consider whether the place was even habitable.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Who's to say it's not? I mean, it hasn't happened there yet, but it hadn't happened anywhere before last week.culdeus said:
Also, something vaguely similar nearly happened to the Citicorp Center back in the '70s:
El Floppo
Footballguy
This is one of the most interesting stories out there, imo. Chance it could collapse, but could also keep standing indefinitely. The well respected engineer had to decide whether to go public or not, risking his reputation and career. He could opt for secrecy and likely never have the problem arise during his lifetime. Iirc, slept on it and decided to go public when he awoke. Came up with an ingenious way of fixing it without needing to shut it all down or emptying the building by adding sheer stiffeners in stages.
I couldnt imagine having to make that kind of decision.
Gawain
Footballguy
I think there are two or three major reasons.culdeus said:
1) The elevation of Manhattan is, on average, greater than the elevation of Miami Beach. When Sandy hit, Manhattan wasn't inundated. The structure in Miami would flood during king tides.
2) The substrata is different. Manhattan island is schist and gneiss. Miami is limestone. The bedrock in Manhattan resists water intrusion to a much greater extent than the limestone of Miami.
3) Miami gets battered by extreme weather more frequently than Manhattan. Those winds and storm surges must take a toll.
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
And now the rest of the family has been identified. The classmate and her sister were the first two children among the confirmed deaths. I’m sure this happens all the time in plane crashes and such, but I’m having a hard time getting past the thought of an entire family being wiped out all at once. I pray this news, as awful as it is, offers their loved ones some peace.
If you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go give my sleeping son an extra hug. I urge everyone else with kids to do the same, And then maybe give your mom a call, too.
There are thousands of oceanfront buildings in the world. This is the only one to fall. I think there is something unique about it, maybe poor design, poor maintenance, susceptibility to seawater flooding, very low elevation. The king tides are gradually getting worse, as average sea level has risen about 4 inches since 1980. But there are great yearly variations. The fall king tides 4 years ago were especially bad in South Florida, due to non-astromical factors such as easterly winds and a slower gulf stream which allowed more water to pile up along the coast.culdeus said:
>>Rescue work stopped overnight at Surfside condo collapse after increased fears the remaining structure would fall, multiple police say. Mound where workers were last night looks idle this morning, and cranes put away. Authorities haven’t confirmed.<<
https://mobile.twitter.com/doug_hanks
https://mobile.twitter.com/doug_hanks
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I'm starting to suspect that thing is poor maintenance. One unattended issue can lead to a chain of failures.
Local news is full of stories of residents worried about spalling concrete and exposed rebar in their buildings. There is speculation that this will reduce prices on units in older buildings by as much as 25%. Plus, HOA fees are likely to go up due to increased maintenance and insurance costs.
The Maison Grande, a 500 unit oceanfront condo 3 miles south is one example.
https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/06/29/residents-of-other-unsafe-structures-fear-outcome-of-surfside-building-collapse/
In Maison Grande, the residents don't even own their pool. It's a recreational lease issue which was prohibited by law after it was built.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wsvn.com/news/investigations/miami-beach-condo-residents-pay-more-than-900k-per-year-for-pool-they-cant-currently-use-under-lease-that-lasts-until-2070/amp/
Doug B
Footballguy
I should have asked when I first saw this -- this has been quoted a few times and I feel like I'm missing context.culdeus said:
@culdeus, what does "ELI5" mean here? Is it the jargon from some trade, or an Internet thing, or something that's becoming a household term?
EDIT: Googled it ... "Explain Like I'm 5 [Years Old]". First time I've ever seen it shortened like that.
EDIT2: Apparently popularized on Reddit, where there is a "Explain Like I'm Five" Reddit board where people use the acronym frequently. File under "Internet Thing".
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