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150+ people unaccounted for in Miami Beach/Surfside Collapse of Apt/Condo Building...Death Toll rising (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
- Start date
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Just read this article, from 2015, and found it super fascinating in light of the past week: The Story Behind a Downtown Sarasota Condo’s Near-Collapse.
TLDR: The building had a major rupture in 2010 and it took five years and a dogged association president to keep it solvent and get the repairs done. On the one hand, the residents were incredibly lucky that their building's near collapse was big enough to scare everyone into doing something while not costing anyone their life. At the same time, I'm sure they didn't feel so lucky as they endured five years of paying mortgages, maintenance fees and assessments on condos they couldn't inhabit (unless they couldn't pay, in which case they were forced to sell their units for pennies on the dollar).
TLDR: The building had a major rupture in 2010 and it took five years and a dogged association president to keep it solvent and get the repairs done. On the one hand, the residents were incredibly lucky that their building's near collapse was big enough to scare everyone into doing something while not costing anyone their life. At the same time, I'm sure they didn't feel so lucky as they endured five years of paying mortgages, maintenance fees and assessments on condos they couldn't inhabit (unless they couldn't pay, in which case they were forced to sell their units for pennies on the dollar).
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I am also disinclined to buy a condo.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I have no idea what we will ultimately determine to be the cause of this tragedy, and what that says about condos. But I'm reminded of the stat I've heard that, whenever there's a high-profile plane crash, people are more likely to choose driving over flying, and since the former is more dangerous, the incremental number of people killed in car crashes over the subsequent year dwarfs the number who died in the plane crash.
I may be mis-stating that, I have no idea if it's even true, and I'm not sure what the parallel would be in this situation (whatever the costs of people not buying condos, no one is going to die as a result). But I think there is a broader point in terms of availability heuristics.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
My understanding is that the Miami area is always mentioned as being particularly exposed to rising seas because of its low elevation. I also was reading some articles that have claimed the rise was actually 6 inches since the 90s. Either way, I think we are all hoping there is something uniquely bad about this construction and a wakeup call to similar properties to maintain their structures better.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't want to buy a condo because it took the board of that condominium THREE YEARS to actually agree to do the necessary repairs. (They finally agreed back in April.) I don't want to have to wait to fix stuff that needs fixing.
culdeus
Footballguy
This term was used frequently on the FFA dating back to the early part of the prior decade. There were regular ELI5 threads here or just people responding ELI5 to comments. It fell out of favor somewhat.
Many condos offer several things not available in most single family homes and townhouses. For one, the views from many condos near oceans or bays are spectacular. Another benefit is security, which is very important for many people. It's also easier to travel, as you just lock up and go. If I bought a condo, I would avoid older buildings with high HOA fees and those with lots of salt water exposure. Its hard to predict assessments. I know several condo residents in smaller buildings who have good management and maintenance, with good oversight. Sometimes you don't know about this until after you buy.
Simply not enough.’ Surfside condo has $48 million in insurance coverage, court hears
This is only the beginning.
>>The first court hearing was held Thursday for a handful of initial lawsuits stemming from the Surfside condo collapse, and a Miami-Dade judge acknowledged that the building’s $48 million in total insurance coverage likely won’t be enough.
“There’s going to be a very serious allocation issue between those people who tragically lost loved ones and those who were lucky enough to only lose property,” Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman said during the Zoom hearing.
So far, five lawsuits have been filed stemming from the catastrophic collapse of the Champlain Towers South building on June 24. As of Thursday morning, the bodies of 18 people have been discovered and 145 remain missing in the unprecedented condo collapse. Rescue work was halted early Thursday over concerns that the remaining structure could topple.<<
This is only the beginning.
>>The first court hearing was held Thursday for a handful of initial lawsuits stemming from the Surfside condo collapse, and a Miami-Dade judge acknowledged that the building’s $48 million in total insurance coverage likely won’t be enough.
“There’s going to be a very serious allocation issue between those people who tragically lost loved ones and those who were lucky enough to only lose property,” Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman said during the Zoom hearing.
So far, five lawsuits have been filed stemming from the catastrophic collapse of the Champlain Towers South building on June 24. As of Thursday morning, the bodies of 18 people have been discovered and 145 remain missing in the unprecedented condo collapse. Rescue work was halted early Thursday over concerns that the remaining structure could topple.<<
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
CIIFOADoug B said:
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The little girl who was pulled from the rubble Thursday Night alongside her mother, they were sleeping 
The dad who was a fireman and part of the rescue efforts found her and pulled her from the rubble, carried her down with a flag draped over her. I cannot imagine and I cannot type this without welling up int he eyes quite a bit.
The dad who was a fireman and part of the rescue efforts found her and pulled her from the rubble, carried her down with a flag draped over her. I cannot imagine and I cannot type this without welling up int he eyes quite a bit.
Hope for finding survivors in the ruble went from 1 in a million to an order of magnitude worse.
>>Demolition Preparations Begin at Surfside Condo. Death Toll at 24. The suspension of the search operation prompted concern from one family member who called it 'devastating' that work had to stop.<<
>>Concerns had been mounting over the past week that the damaged structure was at risk of failure, endangering the crews below. The search in adjacent areas of the collapse site was curtailed, and shifts detected by monitors early Thursday prompted a 15-hour suspension of the entire effort until engineers determined it was safe to resume.
The building won’t come down until Monday at the earliest, according to Jadallah. That estimate was based on how many holes the demolition team needs to drill, he said, adding that the process has to move slowly to prevent a premature collapse.
With Tropical Storm Elsa looming in the Caribbean and forecast to move toward the state in the coming days, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said demolishing the “tottering” and “structurally unsound" structure is the prudent thing to do.
“If the building is taken down, this will protect our search and rescue teams, because we don’t know when it could fall over,” DeSantis said at a news conference earlier in the day. “And, of course, with these gusts, potentially that would create a really severe hazard.”
"The fear was that (Elsa) may take the building down for us and take it down in the wrong direction,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett said.<<
>>Demolition Preparations Begin at Surfside Condo. Death Toll at 24. The suspension of the search operation prompted concern from one family member who called it 'devastating' that work had to stop.<<
>>Concerns had been mounting over the past week that the damaged structure was at risk of failure, endangering the crews below. The search in adjacent areas of the collapse site was curtailed, and shifts detected by monitors early Thursday prompted a 15-hour suspension of the entire effort until engineers determined it was safe to resume.
The building won’t come down until Monday at the earliest, according to Jadallah. That estimate was based on how many holes the demolition team needs to drill, he said, adding that the process has to move slowly to prevent a premature collapse.
With Tropical Storm Elsa looming in the Caribbean and forecast to move toward the state in the coming days, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said demolishing the “tottering” and “structurally unsound" structure is the prudent thing to do.
“If the building is taken down, this will protect our search and rescue teams, because we don’t know when it could fall over,” DeSantis said at a news conference earlier in the day. “And, of course, with these gusts, potentially that would create a really severe hazard.”
"The fear was that (Elsa) may take the building down for us and take it down in the wrong direction,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett said.<<
rockaction
Footballguy
I just saw this article. Very sad, very harrowing.
https://slate.com/business/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-florida-building-industry-crisis.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
https://slate.com/business/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-florida-building-industry-crisis.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
The building that is standing will be demolished between 10pm and 3am tonight. This will facilitate the search for survivors and bodies, as they will be able to access the garage and other areas more safely. The Israeli colonel believes there are no more survivors. His team provided useful 2-d and 3d mapping of the the ruins. There are still 121 people unaccounted for.
A blue tarp will be placed on the ruble before the demolition to separate the new debris from the old debris, although the remaining structure should fall in place.
https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/07/04/watch-live-officials-update-public-on-rescue-operation-at-surfside-building-collapse/
A blue tarp will be placed on the ruble before the demolition to separate the new debris from the old debris, although the remaining structure should fall in place.
https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/07/04/watch-live-officials-update-public-on-rescue-operation-at-surfside-building-collapse/
The rest of the building is down in a controlled explosion. The condo just south was not evacuated, as there was high confidence in the demolition experts.
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/demolition-teams-prepare-to-demolish-remainder-of-collapsed-surfside-condo/2487680/
A judge denied a resident's request to rescue her cat on the 4th floor.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidOvalle305/status/1411867856740958212
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/demolition-teams-prepare-to-demolish-remainder-of-collapsed-surfside-condo/2487680/
A judge denied a resident's request to rescue her cat on the 4th floor.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidOvalle305/status/1411867856740958212
Last edited by a moderator:
Yep. There were 3 sweeps of the building, including closets, per mayor Daniella Levine Cava. The lady whose cat may have still been in the building also had a dog that was rescued from the balcony on day 1. Her cat was sighted but couldn't be captured.
Possessions such as older photos should be put in the cloud. Most of us haven't done that.
UOFI_316
Footballguy
Last week I was talking to a former co-worker who does forensic engineering. He said he was asked to go to Miami and he turned it down. He worked the Hard Rock Cafe collapse in New Orleans a few years ago, and said he can still remember/see exactly when they were moving debris and found dead bodies. He did not want to go through that again, and I can't blame him with this many still unaccounted for. I can't imagine what it takes to be the one who finds an entire family crushed in their beds.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I imagine most of us think that there aren’t any survivors left. But can you imagine if someone somehow managed to survive at this point and they’re in that mess and suddenly they hear the rest of the building get blown up? Ugh.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
It's a horrible dilemma faced by local officials. I think what drove the decision was that a potential storm could place rescue workers at risk if it knocked over the remaining structure. But yes, that probably means extinguishing any lingering hope of finding survivors (and perhaps just as wrenching, telling the families that they were basically giving up on rescuing their loved ones).
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Memorial service this afternoon for the family of my son's classmate. He and my wife are traveling, so I have to decide whether to attend on my own. I didn't know the family at all, but I've always felt that in situations like this, paying respects is a way to affirm to others (and myself) that we are all part of the same community. I was living in NY on 9/11, and the only person I knew who died was a college classmate. I hadn't known him well either -- he dated my friend's roommate, I hadn't seen him since graduation, and likely never would have seen him again if he had lived -- but he became my stand-in for the 2,800 people who died that day. Got to the service and saw another college friend, who had known him equally well, and realized she was thinking the exact same thing
Unless they got buried in a 1 in a billion (based on the day after view) pocket with a stash of bottled water, there is no one alive after 13 days. There didn’t look to even be any way to have a pocket.
Now that there is no risk from a falling structure or debris, the pace of finding bodies has accelerated.
10 more bodes found today, bringing the total up to 46 confirmed dead and 94 still unaccounted.
A body found yesterday: In a tragic irony, man who devoted life to structural engineering among dead in Surfside collapse.
10 more bodes found today, bringing the total up to 46 confirmed dead and 94 still unaccounted.
A body found yesterday: In a tragic irony, man who devoted life to structural engineering among dead in Surfside collapse.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Officials are ending the search for survivors in the Surfside condo collapse
I'm sure this can't be easy for the families. And everyone reacts to these things differently. But from my own experience with a relative who was "unaccounted for" for about 24 hours before her death was confirmed, in retrospect I'm glad it wasn't longer. Two weeks of knowing the almost-certain outcome but still feeling compelled to hold onto a sliver of hope sounds like absolute torture. I hope today's decision brings all of those family members some degree of peace.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I did end up going to the service, and was very glad I did, both for the reasons I outlined above as well as one other that I hadn't considered: It gave me some insight into a family I hadn't known, and allowed me to think of them as more than just their tragic end. But man, seeing the three coffins laid out together was rough (the two girls shared one, and I want zero insight into how that decision was made). As one of the eulogists said, "It's an awful sight, and I pray that none of us ever have to see something like that again."
Chris B.
Footballguy
Only $18M of that is liability. And if separate chunks of that $18M are split up between general liability and directors & officers, those don't stack. A lot of people are going to get the short end of the stick when it's time for settlements/judgements if they don't have their own life insurance policies.
The land is worth about $30Mto 50M. The county or state or feds might buy it for a memorial site and public beach. I doubt if another condo goes up on the site.
Most, but not all of the residents were upper middle or upper class, many likely had insurance or other wealth. There are multiple gofundme efforts. There were 136 units and hundreds of former residents and their families, and about 140 casualties. How do you decide how to divvy up the funds? The current lawsuits were combined into one court, iirc.
On Friday, "The judge said he hoped the litigation could be resolved quickly, perhaps within a year. Until then, he authorized the receiver, attorney Michael Goldberg, to provide $10,000 each to residents for temporary housing and $2,000 to cover funeral."
Most people just want to know what happened.
https://www.local10.com/news/national/2021/07/06/building-collapse-lawsuits-seek-to-get-answers-assign-blame/
Chris B.
Footballguy
That's interesting that there are several separate suits naming different parties. I'm no legal expert, but I wonder if a class action suit against the condo assoc and all those professional service providers would make it easier to allocate money (assuming the residents win). Also, is land insurable in Florida? I know it's not in California, but the article notes the land value right after the insurance coverage total.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I have a story to share from a couple years ago when we moved from Miami up to Jupiter/Juno Beach and nothing here will be very shocking but I want to share what happened in the condo building we were in facing the Atlantic Ocean.
They had to replace the sliding glass doors that went out to all the balconies and they had to literally open these building and the erosion in these parts of the building over time was shocking the way the sea tears them up...and these particular ones were built in the 80s which is newer than the ones down in Miami. I believe the Board of the condos we lived in up here were strong enough to make decisions that weren't always pleasant. The Assessment to each owner was like $15k per unit but well worth it I would say in hind sight.
-Now the noise and sound, it would drive you nuts what they were doing and it took many many months and people were complaining and wanting to replace board members and the PAIN of doing the right thing is harder than some would imagine. I can see why some folks would not want to buy a Condo and maybe that will slow the market a tad down here...I doubt it but possibly it will make folks think twice.
They had to replace the sliding glass doors that went out to all the balconies and they had to literally open these building and the erosion in these parts of the building over time was shocking the way the sea tears them up...and these particular ones were built in the 80s which is newer than the ones down in Miami. I believe the Board of the condos we lived in up here were strong enough to make decisions that weren't always pleasant. The Assessment to each owner was like $15k per unit but well worth it I would say in hind sight.
-Now the noise and sound, it would drive you nuts what they were doing and it took many many months and people were complaining and wanting to replace board members and the PAIN of doing the right thing is harder than some would imagine. I can see why some folks would not want to buy a Condo and maybe that will slow the market a tad down here...I doubt it but possibly it will make folks think twice.
A correction in selling price will likely occur on older buildings with exposure to salt water. Over the years, I've seen retired folks move from nice units on the ocean or bay because they couldn't afford the assessments, many of which were related to concrete restoration/repair on balconies. HOA fees on many buildings may go up as they become more diligent about inspections and repairs. I have a coworker living in an oceanfront building in the 5500 block of Collins, a building from the 1970s with no balconies, but she says all units have leak around the windows when there is a driving rain hitting the windows. Caulking hasn't fixed the leaking. I suspect there'll need to be window replacement and concrete restoration or hardening. Very expensive in tall buildings.
Surfside death toll reaches 79, officials believe all victims will be recovered in next week or so 61 people potentially unaccounted for, Miami-Dade mayor says
Cat that lived in collapsed Surfside condo tower is found safe, reunited with family
>>The cat was identified as Binx, who lived in unit #904. That unit belonged to Angela and Edgar Gonzalez, who lived in the building with their daughters, Deven and Tayler, and their dog, Daisy.
“As you may know, pets are family, and this is a miracle ... That’s actually Deven’s cat, so I’m sure she’s going to be over the moon knowing that they found her cat,” Maria Gaspari, a friend of the family, told WSVN-Fox 7.
Angela and Deven were among the first to be pulled from the rubble and were hospitalized. Tayler was not in the building at the time of the collapse. Edgar is still missing.
On Friday, the family’s verified GoFundMe page shared more positive news. Angela was awake and talking. Deven was starting to walk with a walker and could be released from the hospital soon. The page asked people to continue praying for Edgar “to come back to us.”<<
Cat that lived in collapsed Surfside condo tower is found safe, reunited with family
>>The cat was identified as Binx, who lived in unit #904. That unit belonged to Angela and Edgar Gonzalez, who lived in the building with their daughters, Deven and Tayler, and their dog, Daisy.
“As you may know, pets are family, and this is a miracle ... That’s actually Deven’s cat, so I’m sure she’s going to be over the moon knowing that they found her cat,” Maria Gaspari, a friend of the family, told WSVN-Fox 7.
Angela and Deven were among the first to be pulled from the rubble and were hospitalized. Tayler was not in the building at the time of the collapse. Edgar is still missing.
On Friday, the family’s verified GoFundMe page shared more positive news. Angela was awake and talking. Deven was starting to walk with a walker and could be released from the hospital soon. The page asked people to continue praying for Edgar “to come back to us.”<<
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
They don't mention if the dog is alive, Daisy. I wonder if this was the the apartment where a dog was rescued but there was a cat that they couldn't get to. And a judge basically said they had to move on with demolition, even though the cat was / could be seen.
Edgar not making it while the wife and daughter(s) did is so brutal.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Dogs and people can be awesome:
>>As they were finishing their shift, they were met by members of the Lutheran Church Charities Confort K-9 Ministries from Northbrook, Illinois, who had emotional support golden retrievers with them for the firefighters to pet.
“They are trained to remain really calm in every situation,” said Bonnie Fear, response coordinator for the group. “and, their vest says, ‘please pet me.’ So, that’s an invitation to pet them and either cry or release their emotions.”<<
Death toll reaches 86 in Surfside collapse. Site to be cleared ‘sooner than expected’
>>As they were finishing their shift, they were met by members of the Lutheran Church Charities Confort K-9 Ministries from Northbrook, Illinois, who had emotional support golden retrievers with them for the firefighters to pet.
“They are trained to remain really calm in every situation,” said Bonnie Fear, response coordinator for the group. “and, their vest says, ‘please pet me.’ So, that’s an invitation to pet them and either cry or release their emotions.”<<
Death toll reaches 86 in Surfside collapse. Site to be cleared ‘sooner than expected’
The judge says the law places value on claims so he has approved that the land be put up for sale, potentially for $100-110 million dollars per court records. Many relatives favor a memorial on the site, but would the government approve that amount to purchase the site?
97 bodies have been recovered, 90 positively IDed, only 8 remain unaccounted for as the search through the rubble nears an end. The unaccounted Iist is much smaller than expected, not sure why, but some were duplicate Hebrew, non-Hebrew names. After 21 days, the identification of bodies has become more challenging.
The effects of the condo collapse are reverberating throughout South Florida. 4 buildings have been ordered evacuated, 2 were going to be demolished anyway for new construction. The 10-story 152 unit Crestview condo on the mainland in North Miami Beach was ordered evacuated due to electrical and structural issues, and residents were given the chance a few days later to retrieve their belongings; the police allowed 1 resident per unit only 15 minutes to retrieve medicines, documents, etc. Many older buildings are undergoing additional inspections, and residents are expecting structural issues to be addressed sooner rather than later, resulting in assessments and higher HOA fees. On twitter and NextDoor, I see a common complaint about balconies being inaccessible for months and up to 2 years as structural issues are addressed. Apparently, balconies are common areas, so the HOA can use 2×4s and bolts to prevent balcony access, with only 1 or 2 days notice.
97 bodies have been recovered, 90 positively IDed, only 8 remain unaccounted for as the search through the rubble nears an end. The unaccounted Iist is much smaller than expected, not sure why, but some were duplicate Hebrew, non-Hebrew names. After 21 days, the identification of bodies has become more challenging.
The effects of the condo collapse are reverberating throughout South Florida. 4 buildings have been ordered evacuated, 2 were going to be demolished anyway for new construction. The 10-story 152 unit Crestview condo on the mainland in North Miami Beach was ordered evacuated due to electrical and structural issues, and residents were given the chance a few days later to retrieve their belongings; the police allowed 1 resident per unit only 15 minutes to retrieve medicines, documents, etc. Many older buildings are undergoing additional inspections, and residents are expecting structural issues to be addressed sooner rather than later, resulting in assessments and higher HOA fees. On twitter and NextDoor, I see a common complaint about balconies being inaccessible for months and up to 2 years as structural issues are addressed. Apparently, balconies are common areas, so the HOA can use 2×4s and bolts to prevent balcony access, with only 1 or 2 days notice.
culdeus
Footballguy
Condo towers are more or less how the entire planet lives. Single family homes in urban areas is fairly uniquely an American thing.
Go to virtually anywhere in Asia and it's just tower after tower, and nowhere that is dense in Asia is typically too far from salt.
Somebody simply ####ed up.
Go to virtually anywhere in Asia and it's just tower after tower, and nowhere that is dense in Asia is typically too far from salt.
Somebody simply ####ed up.
Runkle
Footballguy
I think I saw some articles a few weeks back saying that engineers looking at photos of the rubble suggested it had far less rebar than the builders claimed to have used. Was there any traction on that, I wonder? If the HOA isn't insured enough to cover things, I wonder what liability the builders will have.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I've been wondering about this. Within a couple days, the number of people who were unaccounted for seemed to have been set at around 150, and the total number of dead + unaccounted for didn't budge for a couple weeks even as they started to find more bodies. But at this point, it's looking like the total number of deaths will be closer to 100. I could certainly see how, in the immediate aftermath of the collapse, there would be duplicates, people who it turned out were away on vacation, etc. But you would figure all that stuff would get sorted out pretty quickly, not weeks later.
Obviously not the most important thing, and even more obviously, I'm glad to hear the number of deaths is lower than what we had expected. I'm just curious how that process works.
culdeus
Footballguy
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
If that's true, there will be more folks than just the contractor in trouble. Whoever the owner's inspection agency was will have some questions to answer, as will whatever municipality had QC oversight.Runkle said:
South Florida is widely known in the construction industry as the most crooked area in the country. Politicians, contractors, inspection firms, you name it. Cut corners, bribes, fake work logs, etc....
culdeus
Footballguy
I mean for 10 days half the condo was still up. They got a damn good look at the rebar then.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I'm hoping this is the ultimate conclusion here, but I wouldn't say it would be wise to buy a unit in any seaside condo in a place where the sea level is rising so fast.culdeus said:
That’s starting to change, at least along the Treasure Coast. There is still progress to be made, but the local governments are definitely trying to make sure the work is being done properly, if for no other reason than to CYA. Personally, I make sure my work is right because it’s going to help people see, and if it’s done wrong, it could burn down a building.
culdeus
Footballguy
The thing that is completely overlooked is the moon wobble phase will peak in about 18 years. This, timed with global warming effects will make portions of Florida very prone to flooding by the early 2030s and it will get only worse, and far more vulnerable to hurricanes. There's plenty of reasons to flee areas of Florida at this point that are already prone to high tide flooding. It is just going to get worse.
The process of sea-level rise is still slow, and there are many non-astronomical factors influencing sea-level rise. Supposedly, the judge has received info that the land underneath Champlain south could fetch $100-110 million dollars for building a new luxury. It would have to be no more than 12 stories, per Surfside laws. More vulnerable than the higher ocean sides of barrier islands (with sand dunes) are the lower baysides. Sea-level rise hasn't stopped a huge increase in selling prices, major remodeling, and teardowns for SFHs in Miami Beach and elsewhere along the more vulnerable baysides of barrier islands. Lots of outsiders are coming in with a cheap-for-NY mentality. I thought the really bad King tides of Sep, Oct, Nov 2017 would be a turning point. Nope. In 2017, we had the worst sunny days floods in roads and parking lots in memory, caused by a strong easterly breeze and slowing of the gulfstream, per the experts. At some point, the mentality will change.
