Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
2008 HOF Class (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ack34
- Start date
I wouldn't be surprised if Gossage is the only one that gets enough votes...I bet Blyleven gets screwed again
He wasn't a HOF pitcher. Sorry.I bet Blyleven gets screwed again
Knightro
Footballguy
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
My votes
Jim Rice
Goose Gossage
Jim Rice
Goose Gossage
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
I say....
NO ONE.
Although I'm pulling for the Goose.
NO ONE.
Although I'm pulling for the Goose.
Superbowl Shuffle
Footballguy
Don Mattingly has no business being near the HOF without a paid admission ticket.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
That's a bit harsh...but true.
Knightro
Footballguy
Goose wasn't a HOF last year, but he is (maybe) one this year. Does anyone have a link to his 2007 stats because I'm curious what he did in 2007 to help his cause.
Look at his stats compared to Sutter. Enough said.Goose wasn't a HOF last year, but he is (maybe) one this year. Does anyone have a link to his 2007 stats because I'm curious what he did in 2007 to help his cause.
Knightro
Footballguy
Sutter didn't belong in either - put his numbers up against 1/2 of today's closers and they don't hold up.All I'm saying is Goose went from under 70% last year to almost 90% this year without throwing another pitch. The HOF voting is a complete joke done by a majority of guys who couldn't hit a curve in Little League and now take out their frustrations on guys that do not deserve it.Look at his stats compared to Sutter. Enough said.Goose wasn't a HOF last year, but he is (maybe) one this year. Does anyone have a link to his 2007 stats because I'm curious what he did in 2007 to help his cause.
Last edited by a moderator:
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
That's the flaw in your argument.Closers back in the day (70s & 80s) weren't one inning specialists. Perhaps you go back and see how many 2 and 3 inning saves guys like Mike Marshall and Rollie Fingers had. They had FAR more multi-inning saves than not. You cannot compare Mariano Rivera and Goose Gossage and find the latter wanting. Goose has to be compared to those in his era -- Fingers, Sutter, etc.Sutter didn't belong in either - put his numbers up against 1/2 of today's closers and they don't hold up.All I'm saying is Goose went from under 70% last year to almost 90% this year without throwing another pitch. The HOF voting is a complete joke done by a majority of guys who couldn't hit a curve in Little League and now take out their frustrations on guys that do not deserve it.Look at his stats compared to Sutter. Enough said.Goose wasn't a HOF last year, but he is (maybe) one this year. Does anyone have a link to his 2007 stats because I'm curious what he did in 2007 to help his cause.
RedRaiders
Mr. +EV
Good article by Jayson Stark up. Tim Raines was an animal - this is impressive:
Last edited by a moderator:
Knightro
Footballguy
So yesterday's closers are today's Scot Shields? You say that, but when looking at Gossage's season totals, there are only 4 years where he worked as a closer and exceeded 100 innings. Where is the love for Jeff Reardon? 11 straight seasons of 20+ saves - something Gossage did not do in essentially the same era.That's the flaw in your argument.Closers back in the day (70s & 80s) weren't one inning specialists. Perhaps you go back and see how many 2 and 3 inning saves guys like Mike Marshall and Rollie Fingers had. They had FAR more multi-inning saves than not. You cannot compare Mariano Rivera and Goose Gossage and find the latter wanting. Goose has to be compared to those in his era -- Fingers, Sutter, etc.Sutter didn't belong in either - put his numbers up against 1/2 of today's closers and they don't hold up.All I'm saying is Goose went from under 70% last year to almost 90% this year without throwing another pitch. The HOF voting is a complete joke done by a majority of guys who couldn't hit a curve in Little League and now take out their frustrations on guys that do not deserve it.Look at his stats compared to Sutter. Enough said.Goose wasn't a HOF last year, but he is (maybe) one this year. Does anyone have a link to his 2007 stats because I'm curious what he did in 2007 to help his cause.
If Gossage didn't do most of his work in pinstripes, he wouldn't even be up for discussion. If he were working in relative obscurity like Montreal, KC, Seattle, etc, he isn't topping this list.
I have a problem with closers in general because of the limited work. Whether it be 1 or 3 innings - anyone can look good for 3 innings.
I'm a huge Blyleven guy because he did it for a long period of time. In his 20 win season, he had 37 decisions out of 41 starts. He had 60 career shutouts.
Good stuff about Raines....
I don't think he is a sure-fire hall of famer, and certainly not first ballot, but a case can be made on down the road.
Also, I'm not necessarily under the impression a distinction should be made about "leadoff" hitter, as there is rarely even a distinction made about position differences.
Raines is also going to be hurt going forward by a bunch of players that will get in that were simply better, Henderson, Alomar, Biggio come to mind.
It will be interesting to see how many votes he gets this year. A lot of his prime numbers were put up on crappy teams. He went to the playoffs just one time with Montreal, in his 12 years there. He was also only one time voted in the top 5 in final MVP voting, and that to me is a sticking point with a marginal player. To be in the Hall of Fame, you should have been at the very least the single best player in the league at least once, or put up a huge body of work to back up your case. That's why I can't ever fathom Blyleven in the HOF, with only 2 AS appearances in 22 years?
I can see Raines getting some consideration, I put him on par with Dawson, a clear cut below Rice and Gossage.
I don't think he is a sure-fire hall of famer, and certainly not first ballot, but a case can be made on down the road.
Also, I'm not necessarily under the impression a distinction should be made about "leadoff" hitter, as there is rarely even a distinction made about position differences.
Raines is also going to be hurt going forward by a bunch of players that will get in that were simply better, Henderson, Alomar, Biggio come to mind.
It will be interesting to see how many votes he gets this year. A lot of his prime numbers were put up on crappy teams. He went to the playoffs just one time with Montreal, in his 12 years there. He was also only one time voted in the top 5 in final MVP voting, and that to me is a sticking point with a marginal player. To be in the Hall of Fame, you should have been at the very least the single best player in the league at least once, or put up a huge body of work to back up your case. That's why I can't ever fathom Blyleven in the HOF, with only 2 AS appearances in 22 years?
I can see Raines getting some consideration, I put him on par with Dawson, a clear cut below Rice and Gossage.
Knightro
Footballguy
guys like Raines and Blyleven are penalized for playing for poor teams in poor markets.
to further the case for Blyleven:
Wins SO SHOBert Blyleven 17th 5th 8thSteve Carlton 6th 4th 13thFerguson Jenkins 19th 11th 17thWalter Johnson 1st 9th 1stGaylord Perry 12th 8th 14thNolan Ryan 8th 1st 6thTom Seaver 13th 6th 6thDon Sutton 8th 7th 9thThere is only one pitcher in the history of baseball who has more wins, strikeouts, and shutouts than Blyleven - Nolan Ryan.Punch up Blyleven at baseball-reference.com and who comes up as his most similar pitchers:
Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *
All 8 - are in the hall of fame.
Anyone can be good for one year (Joe Charboneau anyone?) It takes talent to stay in baseball that long (unless you're a lefty) and be a "compiler".
to further the case for Blyleven:
Wins SO SHOBert Blyleven 17th 5th 8thSteve Carlton 6th 4th 13thFerguson Jenkins 19th 11th 17thWalter Johnson 1st 9th 1stGaylord Perry 12th 8th 14thNolan Ryan 8th 1st 6thTom Seaver 13th 6th 6thDon Sutton 8th 7th 9thThere is only one pitcher in the history of baseball who has more wins, strikeouts, and shutouts than Blyleven - Nolan Ryan.Punch up Blyleven at baseball-reference.com and who comes up as his most similar pitchers:
Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *
All 8 - are in the hall of fame.
Anyone can be good for one year (Joe Charboneau anyone?) It takes talent to stay in baseball that long (unless you're a lefty) and be a "compiler".
Knightro
Footballguy
Nope....he wasn't suspended for throwing a spitter until his 21st (next to last ) season in the league.
"Of the 11 first-timers on the ballot, only one -- Tim Raines -- received the requisite 5 percent to remain on the ballot. Raines earned 132 or 24.3 percent."
Good for Raines...pretty solid support for his first ballot.
Ridiculous that Rice didn't get in again.
Good for Raines...pretty solid support for his first ballot.
Ridiculous that Rice didn't get in again.
Last edited by a moderator:
shadyridr
Footballguy
JohnDoe
Footballguy
Ok, call me confused. This article states that Rice fell 14 votes short.
But there were 543 ballots returned. 543 * 75% = 407.25 ballots. Now if Rice got 14 more votes he would have received 74.76%, not the 75% required. The HOF does not round up as evidenced by Nellie Fox not being inducted in 1985 with 74.7% of the vote. LinkThis year's results
Code:
Player Total Votes PercentageRich Gossage 466 85.8%Jim Rice 392 72.2%Andre Dawson 358 65.9%Bert Blyleven 336 61.9%Lee Smith 235 43.3%Jack Morris 233 42.9%Tommy John 158 29.1%Tim Raines 132 24.3%Mark McGwire 128 23.6%Alan Trammell 99 18.2%Dave Concepcion 88 16.2%Don Mattingly 86 15.8%Dave Parker 82 15.1%Dale Murphy 75 13.8%Harold Baines 28 5.2%Rod Beck 2 0.4%Travis Fryman 2 0.4%Robb Nen 2 0.4%Shawon Dunston 1 0.2%Chuck Finley 1 0.2%David Justice 1 0.2%Chuck Knoblauch 1 0.2%Todd Stottlemyre 1 0.2%Jose Rijo 0 0%Brady Anderson 0 0%
B Maverick
Footballguy
Ridiculous that McGwire did noit get in. If Barry Bonds or Clemens gets voted in before McGwire it will be a travesty. If McGwire does not get in, neither should any of them.
This is the era baseball has become. The dead ball era, the live ball era, the steroid era. I guess we should not expect any of todays players to get in.
This is the era baseball has become. The dead ball era, the live ball era, the steroid era. I guess we should not expect any of todays players to get in.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Kinda curious, do you think Vinny Testaverde should get into the HOF?He's 6th all-time in passing yards and 8th all-time in passing TDs.guys like Raines and Blyleven are penalized for playing for poor teams in poor markets.to further the case for Blyleven:
There is only one pitcher in the history of baseball who has more wins, strikeouts, and shutouts than Blyleven - Nolan Ryan.Punch up Blyleven at baseball-reference.com and who comes up as his most similar pitchersCode:[b]Wins SO SHO[/b]Bert Blyleven 17th 5th 8thSteve Carlton 6th 4th 13thFerguson Jenkins 19th 11th 17thWalter Johnson 1st 9th 1stGaylord Perry 12th 8th 14thNolan Ryan 8th 1st 6thTom Seaver 13th 6th 6thDon Sutton 8th 7th 9thon Sutton (914) * Gaylord Perry (909) * Fergie Jenkins (890) * Robin Roberts (876) * Tom Seaver (864) * Early Wynn (844) * Phil Niekro (844) * Steve Carlton (840) *All 8 - are in the hall of fame. Anyone can be good for one year (Joe Charboneau anyone?) It takes talent to stay in baseball that long (unless you're a lefty) and be a "compiler".
RedRaiders
Mr. +EV
Todd Stottlemyre
Koya
Footballguy
Congrats to Goose.
Rice, whom I had been a very strong proponent for, is someone whom is more on the fence after listening to some of the discussions here, but I still would give him the nod as the most feared hitter for close to a decade.
Nice to see the Hawk with over 65% - I think he is killed by the era in which he played. Surpressed offense in general and very little creedence given to OBP... had Hawk played in another era, stats would have been more inflated and due to coaching and such his OBP might be at least a bit more palatable.
Blyleven is done. The decline in his support has really begun imo.
Raines, who does not make the cut in my opinion, had an ok showing for his first ballot. Tremendously underated, but I still don't believe he was HoF caliber.
Rice, whom I had been a very strong proponent for, is someone whom is more on the fence after listening to some of the discussions here, but I still would give him the nod as the most feared hitter for close to a decade.
Nice to see the Hawk with over 65% - I think he is killed by the era in which he played. Surpressed offense in general and very little creedence given to OBP... had Hawk played in another era, stats would have been more inflated and due to coaching and such his OBP might be at least a bit more palatable.
Blyleven is done. The decline in his support has really begun imo.
Raines, who does not make the cut in my opinion, had an ok showing for his first ballot. Tremendously underated, but I still don't believe he was HoF caliber.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Bonds and Clemens are 10 times the player McGwire was.
Knightro
Footballguy
really???1998 83 18% 1999 70 14% 2000 87 17% 2001 121 24% 2002 124 26% 2003 145 29% 2004 179 35% 2005 211 41%2006 277 53%2007 260 48%2008 336 62%seems like an upward climb to meNext year's class is extremely weak for pitching. None of the pitchers behind him are going to leap him and next year's overall class includes:Steve Avery, Jay Bell, John Burkett, David Cone, Mike Bordick, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Denny Neagle, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams, Mike WilliamsRickey is the only one who belongs on a ballot and his speech should be hilarious
Last edited by a moderator:
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
You really think McGwire deserves to be in? Really all he has to hang his hat on is 583 HRs. In 16 seasons:He never won an MVP.Won ROY.Won 1 GG.Led the league in RBIs once.Won 3 silver slugger awards.To put that in perspective, in 4 seasons Ryan Howard has won ROY, MVP, 1 silver slugger and lead the league in RBIs once.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Can someone please explain to me how Lee Smith gets more consideration than Jack Morris, only one of the best (maybe THE best) big-game pitchers of his era?
Oh, and if Sutter's induction helped Gossage, then Mattingly needs consideration since Kirby Puckett is in.
Puckett played 1,783 games and Mattingly 1,785 so almost the exact time frame during the same time period. Ahem...
PUCKETT
1,071 runs
414 doubles
207 HR
1,085 RBI
.318 BA
.360 OBP
.477 SLG
10-time All Star
6-time Gold Glove
6-time Silver Slugger
1 Batting title
0 MVP
22 "Black ink"
122 "Gray ink"
MATTINGLY
1,007 runs
442 doubles
222 HR
1,099 RBI
.307 BA
.358 OBP
.471 SLG
6-time All Star
9-time Gold Glove
3-time Silver Slugger
1 Batting title
1 MVP
23 "Black ink"
111 "Gray ink"
It's a travesty that Kirby Puckett was a first-ballot hall of famer while Mattingly can't get 50% of the vote. And before you spout off about how Puckett's career was cut short by an eye injury, I'll just tell you that I don't care. All we have to go on is the numbers before us. In the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF TIME, they put up nearly identical statistics. And that's with Mattingly having several average seasons due to his own injury. Which means that Mattingly's dominant period (supposedly so important to Hall of Fame voters) FAR exceeded Puckett's most dominant stretch of seasons. If you also want to give Kirby credit for his two rings, that's also unfair to Mattingly because we've seen how much impact one player can make all by himself. That's why Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, and Alex Rodriguez have so many world series rings between them. I'm not putting Mattingly in the class of those guys; just trying to make the point that one player, no matter how great, isn't winning any titles on his own. You can't blame him for George Steinbrenner being inept for the better part of the 80's and 90's.
Oh, and if Sutter's induction helped Gossage, then Mattingly needs consideration since Kirby Puckett is in.
Puckett played 1,783 games and Mattingly 1,785 so almost the exact time frame during the same time period. Ahem...
PUCKETT
1,071 runs
414 doubles
207 HR
1,085 RBI
.318 BA
.360 OBP
.477 SLG
10-time All Star
6-time Gold Glove
6-time Silver Slugger
1 Batting title
0 MVP
22 "Black ink"
122 "Gray ink"
MATTINGLY
1,007 runs
442 doubles
222 HR
1,099 RBI
.307 BA
.358 OBP
.471 SLG
6-time All Star
9-time Gold Glove
3-time Silver Slugger
1 Batting title
1 MVP
23 "Black ink"
111 "Gray ink"
It's a travesty that Kirby Puckett was a first-ballot hall of famer while Mattingly can't get 50% of the vote. And before you spout off about how Puckett's career was cut short by an eye injury, I'll just tell you that I don't care. All we have to go on is the numbers before us. In the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF TIME, they put up nearly identical statistics. And that's with Mattingly having several average seasons due to his own injury. Which means that Mattingly's dominant period (supposedly so important to Hall of Fame voters) FAR exceeded Puckett's most dominant stretch of seasons. If you also want to give Kirby credit for his two rings, that's also unfair to Mattingly because we've seen how much impact one player can make all by himself. That's why Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, and Alex Rodriguez have so many world series rings between them. I'm not putting Mattingly in the class of those guys; just trying to make the point that one player, no matter how great, isn't winning any titles on his own. You can't blame him for George Steinbrenner being inept for the better part of the 80's and 90's.
Workhorse
Footballguy
You really can't make the case that a player belongs in the Hall of Fame because he's similar to a marginal Hall of Famer. What you need to do is make that case that a player belongs in the Hall of Fame because he's better than everybody else who is eligible who ISN'T in the Hall.
Cecil Cooper, Will Clark, Steve Garvey, John Olerud, Wally Joyner.
Mattingly isn't necessarily that much better than that list of comperable first basemen. Personally, I think his numbers aren't as good as Clark and Olerud.
Cecil Cooper, Will Clark, Steve Garvey, John Olerud, Wally Joyner.
Mattingly isn't necessarily that much better than that list of comperable first basemen. Personally, I think his numbers aren't as good as Clark and Olerud.
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
Goose!
shadyridr
Footballguy
Oh come on now. Im not a Mattingly HOF proponent but this post is ridiculous.
Koya
Footballguy
Re: Mattingly and Puckett:
Not only was Puckett a CF, he was also one of the great postseason players of his (or any) era. While you can not count that against Mattingly, you have to count it for Puckett.
Plus, Puckett was an all world wonderful guy that everyone loved.
Until they found out he was a mysoginisitc wife beater.
Not only was Puckett a CF, he was also one of the great postseason players of his (or any) era. While you can not count that against Mattingly, you have to count it for Puckett.
Plus, Puckett was an all world wonderful guy that everyone loved.
Until they found out he was a mysoginisitc wife beater.
Workhorse
Footballguy
Prove it wrong.Will Clark and John Olerud have higher OBP, Slugging and have more Runs, HRs, RBI. I'd argue that both guys had better and longer "peak" years than Mattingly and NEITHER of them benefited the way Mattingly did by playing half their games with a Lefty's "short porch" artificially inflating their power numbers like Mattingly did at Yankee Stadium.Oh, and I forgot Keith Hernandez too. Better OBP/OPS than Mattingly.shadyridr said:
Nipsey
Footballguy
Gossage was sitting in a recliner in his living room overlooking the Rocky Mountains when he received the call. He turned to reporters in the room and said, “Oh my god, I’ve been elected.”
Why were there reporters in his living room watching him look at mountains before he got the call?
Link
Why were there reporters in his living room watching him look at mountains before he got the call?
Link
Last edited by a moderator:
B Maverick
Footballguy
Everyone with 500+ HRs is in EXCEPT McGwire of those eligible.He also held the single season HR and Rookie HR records. Went to 3 straight WS winning 1. He and Sosa saved MLB after the strike.Most writers agree his numbers get him in but they do not vote for him due to his appearance before congress.Snotbubbles said:
shadyridr
Footballguy
Why should I prove anything wrong? You're the one who made the statement. Plus I cant look at numbers at work. What kind of ABs did those other guys have? And none of them had a bad injury like Mattingly.
B Maverick
Footballguy
Great, they still are the poster boys for the era and should not get in over McGwire. Bonds may even be going to jail.shadyridr said:
Bonds and Clemens most certainly deserve to be in over McGwire.I highly doubt McGwire ever gets in, and rightfully so imo. I doubt Palmeiro gets in either. Sammy Sosa probably will have the biggest grudge if he isn't voted in, although I think Sosa gets in.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Like I said all he has to hang his hat on is his HRs. Unfortunately for McGwire, 500 HRs used to mean something about 10-15 years ago. It doesn't anymore. That number has been tainted by steriods.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Rice just missed (needed 14 more votes) and from what I saw, historically they predict he will make it in next year, his last year of eligibility.
Now I must ask again, how does it take someone 15 years to get enough votes to get in. Either you are a HOFer or you aren't. Will his stats change any between this year and next? Will the teams he played on win anymore World Series titles? Will Bucky Dent fly out in the replays next year instead of hitting a home run?
Now I must ask again, how does it take someone 15 years to get enough votes to get in. Either you are a HOFer or you aren't. Will his stats change any between this year and next? Will the teams he played on win anymore World Series titles? Will Bucky Dent fly out in the replays next year instead of hitting a home run?
Similar threads
