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Convince meMost advanced stats I look at, Verlander is ahead. And that no hitter doesn't hurt on the resume
Verlander has a better WHIP and K/9 and K/BB, but most advanced metrics have Weaver on top.FIP has Weaver at 2.51, Verlander at 2.73.WAR is 5.1 to 5.1Win Probability has Weaver at 4.14, Verlander at 3.13.ERA+ has Weaver at 208
and Verlander at 163.
When did win probability become a "most advanced metric?" This is the first I'm hearing of this. Bill James said so? Win probability and ERA+ are not among the most advanced metrics because they are dependent on things outside of a pitcher's control. WHIP, K/9, K/BB and WAR are the standard evaluations these days and they always will be because they are things that can be measured over time.Verlander has a better WHIP and K/9 and K/BB, but most advanced metrics have Weaver on top.
FIP has Weaver at 2.51, Verlander at 2.73.
WAR is 5.1 to 5.1
Win Probability has Weaver at 4.14, Verlander at 3.13.
ERA+ has Weaver at 208
I didnt say that.I didnt think that WHIP and K/9 and the such were considered advanced metrics. I thought wilked was talking about all the new fangled stuff like WPA and FIP and such. 
Seems like there are just as many, if not more metrics that point towards Weaver than Verlander.
You listed it.'the moops said:
I didnt think that WHIP and K/9 and the such were considered advanced metrics. I thought wilked was talking about all the new fangled stuff like WPA and FIP and such.
Seems like there are just as many, if not more metrics that point towards Weaver than Verlander.
WHIP and K/9 are the standard, they are more reliable and recognized than any "advanced metric" ever will be IMO.
Most advanced metrics, as in, more than 1/2, or whatever the standard is for something to be considered "most".Not most advanced metric, as in more advanced than the others.You listed it.'the moops said:
I didnt think that WHIP and K/9 and the such were considered advanced metrics. I thought wilked was talking about all the new fangled stuff like WPA and FIP and such.
Seems like there are just as many, if not more metrics that point towards Weaver than Verlander.
If you go to fangraphs>leaders>advanced>2011 pitching here are the cats and who is leading in each:K/9: VerlanderMost advanced metrics, as in, more than 1/2, or whatever the standard is for something to be considered "most".Not most advanced metric, as in more advanced than the others.You listed it.'the moops said:
I didnt think that WHIP and K/9 and the such were considered advanced metrics. I thought wilked was talking about all the new fangled stuff like WPA and FIP and such.
Seems like there are just as many, if not more metrics that point towards Weaver than Verlander.
Sunday they face each other, I really hope it lives up to expectations.I seriously had just looked at a few different things when I made the comment. Then I just felt the need to correct your confusion as to the "most" comment. It's all good.Verlander it is then.
That would be a terrible injustice. CC is having a fantastic year, but it is not as good as either Verlander or Weaver.
I'm a Verlander apologist, but there is no way that CC winning it would be a terrible injustice. He is right in the thick of it with the other two. We've seen a lot of guys get consideration just because they have inflated win totals. CC is not one of those guys this year. His peripherals all line up as well. Verlander won the day yesterday, but this is still definitely a three man race.
Sabbathia has a worse ERA, WHIP, H/9, BB/9, K/9, ERA+ than Verlander. He has fewer innings pitched and fewer complete games than Verlander. Verlander has a higher WAR and WPA. On and on the list goes. Oh, and they have the same amount of wins.You are right that it isn't like some years where the guy with the most wins but worse peripherals wins the Cy. In fact, this year would even be more ridiculous, because at this moment, there is not one single stat, advanced or not, that favors CC over Verlander.I was leaning towards Weaver yesterday, but our good buddy Dr D set me straight.This award, at this moment, should be a near unanimous decision for Verlander, with Weaver squeaking a few votes because of his incredibly low ERA.I'm a Verlander apologist, but there is no way that CC winning it would be a terrible injustice. He is right in the thick of it with the other two. We've seen a lot of guys get consideration just because they have inflated win totals. CC is not one of those guys this year. His peripherals all line up as well. Verlander won the day yesterday, but this is still definitely a three man race.
We still have 2 months to go, and I have to think if CC wins 25 to Verlander's 20 lets say, he will get it. I'd agree at this point its Verlanders and with good reason, the guy is out of site. However, the East, while not being quite what it was offensively, is still the best offensive division in baseball.Sabbathia has a worse ERA, WHIP, H/9, BB/9, K/9, ERA+ than Verlander. He has fewer innings pitched and fewer complete games than Verlander. Verlander has a higher WAR and WPA. On and on the list goes. Oh, and they have the same amount of wins.You are right that it isn't like some years where the guy with the most wins but worse peripherals wins the Cy. In fact, this year would even be more ridiculous, because at this moment, there is not one single stat, advanced or not, that favors CC over Verlander.I was leaning towards Weaver yesterday, but our good buddy Dr D set me straight.This award, at this moment, should be a near unanimous decision for Verlander, with Weaver squeaking a few votes because of his incredibly low ERA.I'm a Verlander apologist, but there is no way that CC winning it would be a terrible injustice. He is right in the thick of it with the other two. We've seen a lot of guys get consideration just because they have inflated win totals. CC is not one of those guys this year. His peripherals all line up as well. Verlander won the day yesterday, but this is still definitely a three man race.
If voting were today, I agree that Verlander should win easily. But there is a long way to go yet and Sabathia is close on nearly every one of those metrics.Sabbathia has a worse ERA, WHIP, H/9, BB/9, K/9, ERA+ than Verlander. He has fewer innings pitched and fewer complete games than Verlander. Verlander has a higher WAR and WPA. On and on the list goes. Oh, and they have the same amount of wins.You are right that it isn't like some years where the guy with the most wins but worse peripherals wins the Cy. In fact, this year would even be more ridiculous, because at this moment, there is not one single stat, advanced or not, that favors CC over Verlander.I was leaning towards Weaver yesterday, but our good buddy Dr D set me straight.This award, at this moment, should be a near unanimous decision for Verlander, with Weaver squeaking a few votes because of his incredibly low ERA.I'm a Verlander apologist, but there is no way that CC winning it would be a terrible injustice. He is right in the thick of it with the other two. We've seen a lot of guys get consideration just because they have inflated win totals. CC is not one of those guys this year. His peripherals all line up as well. Verlander won the day yesterday, but this is still definitely a three man race.
This is not a direct response to you, but just because a guy is having a very good year and is a fantastic pitcher doesnt mean he should win the Cy Young.And of course there is 2 months to go in the season and anything could happen, but pretty sure when we talk about the award winners it is if the season ended today. Otherwise, there could be a case made for a dozen pitchers.
Not really.
I was just about to post something along those lines.You do realize most Cy voters don't look at your baseballstats. They're going to go by the eye-ball test. Right now, IMO, it's Verlander.
I'm not sure how true that is. Look who won the CYs last year.I was just about to post something along those lines.You do realize most Cy voters don't look at your baseball
I don't know if I'd count LOB% as a positive for Weaver, it most likely just shows he's been luckier. Make it 11-5. Unless weaver's LOB% is lower and you already thought of this, in which case nevermind.If you go to fangraphs>leaders>advanced>2011 pitching here are the cats and who is leading in each:K/9: VerlanderMost advanced metrics, as in, more than 1/2, or whatever the standard is for something to be considered "most".Not most advanced metric, as in more advanced than the others.You listed it.
I didnt think that WHIP and K/9 and the such were considered advanced metrics. I thought wilked was talking about all the new fangled stuff like WPA and FIP and such.
Seems like there are just as many, if not more metrics that point towards Weaver than Verlander.
BB/9: Verlander (has lower #)
K/BB: Verlander
HR/9: Weaver
k%: Verander
BB%: Verlander
WHIP: Verlander
opp avg: Verlander
BABIP: Verlander
LOB%: Weaver
ERA-: Weaver
FIP: Weaver
xFIP: Verlander
ERA: Weaver
tERA: Weaver
SIERRA: Verlander
That is 10 to 6 in favor of Verlander. They are even in wins, Verlander has more raw ks and a better RAR and WAR. Verlander's pitches are also considered to be more valuable (wFB) although it is very close.
Forget about last year's AL Cy winner?We still have 2 months to go, and I have to think if CC wins 25 to Verlander's 20 lets say, he will get it. I'd agree at this point its Verlanders and with good reason, the guy is out of site. However, the East, while not being quite what it was offensively, is still the best offensive division in baseball.Sabbathia has a worse ERA, WHIP, H/9, BB/9, K/9, ERA+ than Verlander. He has fewer innings pitched and fewer complete games than Verlander. Verlander has a higher WAR and WPA. On and on the list goes. Oh, and they have the same amount of wins.You are right that it isn't like some years where the guy with the most wins but worse peripherals wins the Cy. In fact, this year would even be more ridiculous, because at this moment, there is not one single stat, advanced or not, that favors CC over Verlander.I was leaning towards Weaver yesterday, but our good buddy Dr D set me straight.This award, at this moment, should be a near unanimous decision for Verlander, with Weaver squeaking a few votes because of his incredibly low ERA.I'm a Verlander apologist, but there is no way that CC winning it would be a terrible injustice. He is right in the thick of it with the other two. We've seen a lot of guys get consideration just because they have inflated win totals. CC is not one of those guys this year. His peripherals all line up as well. Verlander won the day yesterday, but this is still definitely a three man race.
34 for 34 in saves.
I threw it out there for discussion. His ERA has taken a hit when he pitches in non-save situations, but in saved situations he is pitching better than relievers who have won the CY. If there is a relief pitcher in the CY discussion it is Valverde.
Link
If Valverde was not so bad in non-save situations, he would definitely be in the discussion. He has been totally dominant in save situations. The numbers above speak for themselves.
Weaver still deserves to be ahead of CC. He bests him in every statistical category but strikeouts and wins.
Yeah, you are right. And in reality I think Valverde could finish at #4 if the voting were done today. But he should become part of the discussion.
Weaver missed a solid W last time out when the Angels couldn't score. This ERA hit, and the loss, are really tough blows to his chances. The ball, so to speak, is definitely in Verlander's court.
Several guys with a vote have said they will vote for him. If he wins 25 games its gonna be hard to not vote for him at this point, he is having a unique season and no bats are dominating in the right places. Batista isn't winning, Granderson not the difference i the Yankees winning ways.
In 210 IP. Gonna be a nice WIS season for sure.
I have no issues with a pitcher winning MVP but this seems a bit weak.
Another way to look at it is that he pitches every 5th day but a batter only bats every 9th at bat.
