***2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread (1 Viewer)

[Eephus]

Six former major league players, four managers and two executives comprise the 12-name Expansion Era ballot, featuring candidates whose greatest contributions to the game were realized from 1973 through the present. A 16-member Expansion Era electorate will review and cast votes at the 2013 Baseball Winter Meetings for consideration for the Hall of Fame Class of 2014, the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum announced today.

Dave Concepcion

Bobby Cox

Steve Garvey

Tommy John

Tony La Russa

Billy Martin

Marvin Miller

Dave Parker

Dan Quisenberry

Ted Simmons

George Steinbrenner

Joe Torre

Any candidate who earns votes on 75% of ballots cast will earn election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and will be inducted on Sunday, July 27, 2014 in Cooperstown, N.Y. Results of the Expansion Era vote will be announced on Monday, December 9 at 10 a.m. ET from the Winter Meetings in Orlando, Fla.

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Expansion Era ballot features: Hall of Fame members Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Whitey Herzog, Tommy Lasorda, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Phil Niekro and Frank Robinson; major league executives Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail, Dave Montgomery (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and historians Steve Hirdt (Elias Sports Bureau), Bruce Jenkins (San Francisco Chronicle), Jack O’Connell (BBWAA) and Jim Reeves (retired, Fort Worth Star-Telegram).

Tough ballot. My top four would be Miller, La Russa, Cox and Torre in no particular order.

 

[shadyridr]

I think the following guys deserve the right for me to whiz by their plaque

Tony La Russa
George Steinbrenner
Joe Torre

 

[Don Quixote]

Good list of candidates. My top four would be same as Eephus.

After the letdown this year, next year should be a good year for the HOF. Maddux might challenge Seaver's record for votes (I'm guessing one or two people won't vote for him, even though I can't think of any reason not to). Thomas and Biggio have a solid shot of going in too.

 

[dparker713]

Good list of candidates. My top four would be same as Eephus.

After the letdown this year, next year should be a good year for the HOF. Maddux might challenge Seaver's record for votes (I'm guessing one or two people won't vote for him, even though I can't think of any reason not to). Thomas and Biggio have a solid shot of going in too.

Pitchers use PEDs too bub.

And how does a guy that was suspended for conduct detrimental twice even get on the ballot?

 

[Eephus]

David Ortiz is not on the ballot

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

The person on that list with the biggest impact on the sport is Marvin Miller by a mile. He's gotta go in.

La Russa won a bunch of games and fundamentally changed how games are managed. Whether the introduction if multiple pitching changes in an inning is a net positive for the sport or not is debatable, but it's part of the game now.

Torre and Cox never struck me as great strategists, just caretakers of well-run franchises with deep pockets. I suppose the combo of Torre the player plus his managerial success is worthy of enshrinement.

Put me down for Miller, LaRussa, and Torre in that order.

 

[Raider Nation]

Buster Olney wrote about the Hall of Fame in his Monday blog, pointing out a big problem many of the BBWAA voters will have in filling out their ballots next month: not enough room. Buster would like to vote for at least 16 players, but the voting rules call for a maximum of 10.Buster mentioned that Tyler Kepner of The New York Times is another writer with the same dilemma:

He responded that the use of 10 spots has "always seemed like an arbitrary cut-off point, and strikes me as unfair to both the voters and the candidates. It's true that only 22 percent of the voters used all 10 slots last year. But think about it -- since nobody made it last year, that means at least 22 percent of the voters will have to drop someone they deemed worthy of the Hall of Fame last year in order to accommodate any newcomers."

Those newcomers include Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas, Mike Mussina and Jeff Kent, all with solid or lock credentials, so one in five voters are going to leave a previous candidate or candidates off their ballot whom they otherwise would vote for. Consider that Hall of Fame election is often about momentum -- a player's vote usually increases through the years, often starting well under 50 percent and climbing until he reaches the 75 percent needed -- and some players might lose that crucial step forward needed to put them on a path to election.

The overcrowded ballot is just one ongoing Hall of Fame mess. Here's another one. Consider these two lists. Which one do you like better?

Hall of Famers elected since 2000

C -- Deacon White (45.4 career WAR)

1B -- Tony Perez (53.9)

2B -- Bill Mazeroski (36.1)

3B -- Ron Santo (70.6)

SS -- Barry Larkin (70.2)

OF -- Jim Rice (47.2)

OF -- Andre Dawson (64.4)

OF -- Kirby Puckett (50.8)

SP -- Bert Blyleven (96.5)

RP -- Bruce Sutter (24.5)

Not in the Hall of Fame

C -- Joe Torre (57.4 WAR)

1B -- Keith Hernandez (60.1)

2B -- Lou Whitaker (74.8)

3B -- Edgar Martinez (68.3)

SS -- Alan Trammell (70.4)

OF -- Larry Walker (72.6)

OF -- Tim Raines (69.1)

OF -- Dwight Evans (66.7)

SP -- Curt Schilling (80.7)

RP -- Dan Quisenberry (24.9)

The players on the second team have the higher combined wins above replacement, 645 to 559.6. Some of them are still on the writers' ballot (Martinez, Trammell, Walker, Raines and Schilling) and might make it someday via the BBWAA, although the crowded ballot again makes that less likely. Torre probably will get elected this year as a manager. But you get the point: From a standpoint of value, there isn't a lot to choose from between the two lists (note that the second list doesn't include players whose votes have suffered because of PED allegations or suspected use, such as Barry Bonds or Jeff Bagwell).

Now, all of the players on the first list weren't inducted by the BBWAA (White, Mazeroski and Santo were elected by the veterans committee), but the Hall of Fame doesn't distinguish between how a player was elected; BBWAA honorees don't get a bigger plaque.

That gets to the bigger mess: What is the Hall of Fame? Is it a place to honor the best players? The most famous players? Those -- players, executives, managers -- who had the biggest impact on the game's history? I suspect the BBWAA, if polled as a group, would say it's trying to elect the best players, not just the most famous ones, although in reality it's some intricate combination of the two.

With its tough threshold for election and continued division on how to handle PEDs, the BBWAA elected no players last year. It has elected one starting pitcher in the past 13 years. Some of its recent selections make sense from a nonstatistical point of view -- Rice was more "famous" than Evans, Dawson more "famous" than Raines, Puckett more "famous" than Martinez. But why Larkin and not Trammell? Sutter but not Quisenberry? Perez but not Hernandez?

So we have this weird Hall of Fame where great and deserving players aren't in but Jacob Ruppert is in, and Hank O'Day and Joe Gordon and Bill Mazeroski, not to mention the 17 players and executives from the Negro Leagues elected in an overreaching nod to political correctness in 2006.

The mess will only grow deeper this year. As Buster points out, the logjam means strong candidates might get booted off the ballot after failing to receive 5 percent of the vote. Mussina and Kent deserve to get their Hall of Fame case debated -- this year and in ensuing years -- but there's a good chance both will end up Whitaker-ed before their candidacies have time to start building momentum (as happened with Blyleven and Rice and now Jack Morris).

What to do? Expanding the ballot to allow for more than 10 selections is just the logical start.

 

[dparker713]

There's this function, a new fanged thing really. It allows for you to post a link, i.e. a hyperlink, to the page where you found that post. I get its confusing for some, but I'm sure with some time and hard work you'll figure out how to not blatantly steal the work of others.

 

[Raider Nation]

No.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

There's this function, a new fanged thing really. It allows for you to post a link, i.e. a hyperlink, to the page where you found that post. I get its confusing for some, but I'm sure with some time and hard work you'll figure out how to not blatantly steal the work of others.

wtf

Are you saying that RN didn't write that?!!!?

 

[Raider Nation]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

 

[Limp Ditka]

I'll never look at a Raider Nation post the same again.

 

[Eephus]

I'll never look at a Raider Nation post the same again.

The BBWAA will never vote him in now.

 

[Limp Ditka]

I'll continue to look at dpark posts the same as always.

 

[shuke]

There's this function, a new fanged thing really. It allows for you to post a link, i.e. a hyperlink, to the page where you found that post. I get its confusing for some, but I'm sure with some time and hard work you'll figure out how to not blatantly steal the work of others.

 

[dparker713]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

 

[Raider Nation]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

Tough ####.

HTHU2

 

[jon_mx]

I think it is time to stop beating around the bush and talk about the 800b gorilla in the room, RN's propensity of pirating porn....

 

[Limp Ditka]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

You do realize that Eephus' first post in this thread is done in the same exact fashion as RN's, don't you?

so why aren't you being a ###### about that post too?

 

[Bogart]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

You do realize that Eephus' first post in this thread is done in the same exact fashion as RN's, don't you?

so why aren't you being a ###### about that post too?

It's not cool to pick on the elderly.

 

[Eephus]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

You do realize that Eephus' first post in this thread is done in the same exact fashion as RN's, don't you?

so why aren't you being a ###### about that post too?

It's not cool to pick on the elderly.

I have a note from my doctor

 

[Raider Nation]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

You do realize that Eephus' first post in this thread is done in the same exact fashion as RN's, don't you?

so why aren't you being a ###### about that post too?

This one's gonna blow his mind.

Current odds:

- He apologizes to me... +290

- He scolds Eephus... +160

- He ignores this completely... -450

 

[Koya]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

The "owners" of this site haven't been paying attention for a year or so now. It's all good.

 

[Don Quixote]

I think the rules are: (1) don't post about a certain former NHL GM, (2) don't post about the Pac-10, and (3) don't post about anniversaries involving Aaron Boone.

 

[Bogart]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

The "owners" of this site haven't been paying attention for a year or so now. It's all good.

I doubt Joe has ever even looked in The Baseball Forum. It's beneath him.

 

[Bogart]

I think the rules are: (1) don't post about a certain former NHL GM, (2) don't post about the Pac-10, and (3) don't post about anniversaries involving Aaron Boone.

or daughters of former Presidents.

 

[Don Quixote]

I think the rules are: (1) don't post about a certain former NHL GM, (2) don't post about the Pac-10, and (3) don't post about anniversaries involving Aaron Boone.

or daughters of former Presidents.

That one has been a few years though. Somebody may need to test that one.

 

[dparker713]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

You do realize that Eephus' first post in this thread is done in the same exact fashion as RN's, don't you?

so why aren't you being a ###### about that post too?

This one's gonna blow his mind.

Current odds:

- He apologizes to me... +290

- He scolds Eephus... +160

- He ignores this completely... -450

I'm curious. Why exactly is apologizing to you even on the board? Its not like I'm the one violating the law. (See 17 U.S.C. 501) And if apologizing were an actual option the odds are way too low.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Looking back, 'Continue to be a penis' not being an option was a glaring omission.

 

[Raider Nation]

Looking back, 'Continue to be a penis' not being an option was a glaring omission.

I knew I missed something.

 

[Raider Nation]

Although "violating the law" was good shtick.

Hopefully I get out by the time the Raiders are in the Super Bowl again.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Although "violating the law" was good shtick.

Hopefully I get out by the time the Raiders are in the Super Bowl again.

I assume that you immediately read that statute. Please summarize for us. TIA.

I'm glad that Whitey Herzog is alive, especially if he's going to be on the committee. I honestly thought he was dead, but I now he see that he recovered from his head trauma.

and forgive my ignorance, but is this a new committee/voting procedure? An adjunct to the regular voting, like the veterans' committee?

 

[Koya]

What an odd thing to get upset about. I don't feel like copying two different things, so it's either the text or the link. I assumed that most people would prefer the ease of reading something on the page they're already on, rather than clicking an external link.

And if you want to find the author so badly, copy and paste the first sentence into the Google search box.

I could give a #### about the author. But seeing as this board has been a free service I've enjoyed for 15 or so years, I'd prefer the owners to not get screwed because of your laziness. HTH.

The "owners" of this site haven't been paying attention for a year or so now. It's all good.

I doubt Joe has ever even looked in The Baseball Forum. It's beneath him.

Truer words may never have been spoken.

 

[Eephus]

Good article about Barry Bonds today. It doesn't seem to be part of any orchestrated image rehabilitation campaign because Bonds' refused to be interviewed for it, but the writer (Gwen Knapp) has covered Bonds extensively and has excellent Giants sources.

 

[oso diablo]

Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, McGwire, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Thomas, Trammell. Yes, i know that's 12.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Maddux and Glavine give Bobby Cox a decent shot at this election - to put them all in as part of one class. Kind of wish Smoltz had not hung around...

 

[guru_007]

My votes would be for Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Piazza, Kent, & Thomas

(yes, I know everyone was wondering)

 

[shadyridr]

Jeff Kent & the HOF int he same thread? I know theres a good shadyridr joke in there somewhere, right Dr D?

 

[guru_007]

No idea why Jeff Kent wouldn't get more consideration.

really too lazy to look anything up, but name 5 better second basemen offensively, ever.

Hornsby, Morgan, Lajoie and who else? Biggio, Alomar, I'd make a case for Kent over either.

 

[Greco]

Is Raider Nation a Mitch Albom pen name?

 

[Tau837]

Buster Olney wrote about the Hall of Fame in his Monday blog...

The overcrowded ballot is just one ongoing Hall of Fame mess. Here's another one. Consider these two lists. Which one do you like better?

Hall of Famers elected since 2000

C -- Deacon White (45.4 career WAR)

1B -- Tony Perez (53.9)

2B -- Bill Mazeroski (36.1)

3B -- Ron Santo (70.6)

SS -- Barry Larkin (70.2)

OF -- Jim Rice (47.2)

OF -- Andre Dawson (64.4)

OF -- Kirby Puckett (50.8)

SP -- Bert Blyleven (96.5)

RP -- Bruce Sutter (24.5)

Not in the Hall of Fame

C -- Joe Torre (57.4 WAR)

1B -- Keith Hernandez (60.1)

2B -- Lou Whitaker (74.8)

3B -- Edgar Martinez (68.3)

SS -- Alan Trammell (70.4)

OF -- Larry Walker (72.6)

OF -- Tim Raines (69.1)

OF -- Dwight Evans (66.7)

SP -- Curt Schilling (80.7)

RP -- Dan Quisenberry (24.9)

This nicely illustrates two problems with the baseball HOF. First, almost none of the players on the first list deserve to be in the HOF. Second, this illustrates the prevailing mentality that the way to determine if a player is deserving is to try to find someone already in the HOF to whom he reasonably compares... but this just compounds mistakes by using undeserving HOFers to justify adding more undeserving HOFers.

ETA: And guys like Olney are part of the problem. There aren't close to 16 HOF worthy players on this year's ballot.

 

[Tau837]

IMO the baseball HOF is far too watered down and should have at most only 60-70% of its current members. That said, this is a very strong group. These guys are nobrainers:

Biggio

Glavine

Maddux

Thomas

And these guys should be nobrainers, regardless of PED use:

Bonds

Clemens

Piazza

Sosa

So I'd vote for those 8 players.

I might also vote for Martinez, but I'm torn on whether or not to vote for a full time DH. His offensive numbers are certainly HOF caliber.

I don't think this is a year when bubble guys like Kent, McGriff, Mussina, Trammell, Walker, et al. have much of a chance of getting in. Too many clearly better players on the ballot.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

No idea why Jeff Kent wouldn't get more consideration.

really too lazy to look anything up, but name 5 better second basemen offensively, ever.

Hornsby, Morgan, Lajoie and who else? Biggio, Alomar, I'd make a case for Kent over either.

Gehringer, Frisch, Collins, Sandberg, Gordon, Robinson...maybe Doerr... If Cano isn't past Kent already he will be in a couple years.

 

[dparker713]

Why will people not vote for Edgar because he was primarily a DH, but no one even mentions how much time Thomas spent at DH.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Why will people not vote for Edgar because he was primarily a DH, but no one even mentions how much time Thomas spent at DH.

I would assume because Thomas has such better numbers overall. Thomas's batting while playing First base is close to what Martinez did at DH. Then he tacked on the same numbers (lower BA, to be fair) as a DH. Thomas was one of the most feared hitters in the league for several years, whereas Martinez really never was. Thomas also won 2 MVPs, in case you didn't notice. And had 7 other top 10 finishes in MVP voting. Edgar was in the top 10 twice.

 

[RnR]

This has the makings of a long induction ceremony. Even if it is only Maddux and Glavine on the vote, surely Cox, LaRussa and Torre go in as managers.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Is Raider Nation a Mitch Albom pen name?

I believe RN is over 5 feet tall.

 

[Eephus]

IMO the baseball HOF is far too watered down and should have at most only 60-70% of its current members.

shadyridr could be in and out in under 45 minutes.

I disagree with small hall advocates. Inducting Deacon White into the hall doesn't diminish the accomplishments of Johnny Bench or Bill Dickey one bit. It merely honors White as a great player in his era (1871-90) and a pioneer of the game. 45 career WAR is a lot more impressive when you consider teams were playing ~80 game seasons for much of his career.

 

[Eephus]

No idea why Jeff Kent wouldn't get more consideration.

really too lazy to look anything up, but name 5 better second basemen offensively, ever.

Hornsby, Morgan, Lajoie and who else? Biggio, Alomar, I'd make a case for Kent over either.

Gehringer, Frisch, Collins, Sandberg, Gordon, Robinson...maybe Doerr... If Cano isn't past Kent already he will be in a couple years.

Jay Jaffe's system ranks Kent as the #17 second baseman.

 

[shadyridr]

Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Piazza, Thomas

I know most of those guys are considered steroid guys and wont get in but i think thats who deserves in. My predicition for actual results is biggio, glavine, maddux, piazza, thomas

I also think mussina and kent deserve to get in eventually. And cox, larussa, and torre probably also deserve to get in sooner or later.