***2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread (2 Viewers)

[shuke]

Biggio had great versatility, but Smoltz was versatile with a novelty factor. The Press loves Smoltz and aren't exactly cozy with Biggio. I'd be surprised if Biggio trumps Smoltz in next year's voting.

You're nuts.

 

[shadyridr]

Biggio had great versatility, but Smoltz was versatile with a novelty factor. The Press loves Smoltz and aren't exactly cozy with Biggio. I'd be surprised if Biggio trumps Smoltz in next year's voting.

You're nuts.

nuts about what? You dont think smoltz gets more votes than biggio next year?

 

[Chemical X]

Although "violating the law" was good shtick.

Hopefully I get out by the time the Raiders are in the Super Bowl again.

I assume that you immediately read that statute. Please summarize for us. TIA.

I'm glad that Whitey Herzog is alive, especially if he's going to be on the committee. I honestly thought he was dead, but I now he see that he recovered from his head trauma.

and forgive my ignorance, but is this a new committee/voting procedure? An adjunct to the regular voting, like the veterans' committee?

i think you meant to say statue, like statue of limitations.

 

[Chemical X]

oh and biggio isnt a HOFer. if he wasnt a HOFer with 2900 hits,

3000 doesn't make it so. .280 hitter, 200 hits once? 7 time AS

in 20 years? top 10 mvp votino i think once, maybe

twice? Great durability, but a classic compiler that is a notch

below.

 

[shadyridr]

oh and biggio isnt a HOFer. if he wasnt a HOFer with 2900 hits,

3000 doesn't make it so. .280 hitter, 200 hits once? 7 time AS

in 20 years? top 10 mvp votino i think once, maybe

twice? Great durability, but a classic compiler that is a notch

below.

exactly

 

[boubucarow]

oh and biggio isnt a HOFer. if he wasnt a HOFer with 2900 hits,

3000 doesn't make it so. .280 hitter, 200 hits once? 7 time AS

in 20 years? top 10 mvp votino i think once, maybe

twice? Great durability, but a classic compiler that is a notch

below.

It depends on how you treat 2B. There are four statistically elite no doubt Hall of Famers and then the rest of the not that good. But if Alomar and Sandberg are HOF, then Biggio probably is too. Our perceptions of the time tell us that Alomar and Sandberg were so much better but Biggio's peak seasons are much closer than we think.

 

[shadyridr]

oh and biggio isnt a HOFer. if he wasnt a HOFer with 2900 hits,

3000 doesn't make it so. .280 hitter, 200 hits once? 7 time AS

in 20 years? top 10 mvp votino i think once, maybe

twice? Great durability, but a classic compiler that is a notch

below.

It depends on how you treat 2B. There are four statistically elite no doubt Hall of Famers and then the rest of the not that good. But if Alomar and Sandberg are HOF, then Biggio probably is too. Our perceptions of the time tell us that Alomar and Sandberg were so much better but Biggio's peak seasons are much closer than we think.

alomar blows biggio away defensively

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Love what Lebotard did. Couldn't support him more. The Hall of Fame and the BBWA don't deserve the respect they demand in this process. I hope the whole thing blows up now as a result.

 

[guru_007]

Love what Lebotard did. Couldn't support him more. The Hall of Fame and the BBWA don't deserve the respect they demand in this process. I hope the whole thing blows up now as a result.

Not sure I agree at all.Every professional sports hall of fame voting is just a glorified popularity contest. I think most people are aware of that.

At least with the baseball hof vote, I think there is some degree of transparency. Vote totals are published. There are very open debates/articles written in regard to certain players qualifications or lack thereof.

In Houston, fans are aghast over Biggio not making it in this year. But let's face it, he was just two votes shy, the overwhelming feeling is that he will get in probably next year. And the only person who's life is seriously effected by this either way is Craig Biggio. Yes, fans have personal feelings to certain players getting in, but for someone to be angered over him not making it is a bit much in my eyes. As was stated above (and I pretty much agree with those posts), Biggio's case for the HOF is spotty at best. I make him a borderline hof'er, certainly not a slam dunk hof'er and if some feel he is, they vote that way. If some feel that he isn't, they vote that way. I think most voters take their vote seriously and hope they put effort into the thought process, but I could care less if they don't. Maybe there should be some scrutiny from year over year, as that one moron that put Jack Morris on and no one else was a bit thoughtless, but that's a miniscule portion of the voting percentage.

The football hof process is much, much worse, it's a good ole boys network. The inner circle of people choose who is in as a personal preference, and there is plenty of hey, you vote for my guy this year, I'll vote for your guy next year going on. I would much prefer the baseball hof vote to be done the way it is now, then the way it is done in football.

Does it have flaws? Sure it does, but any process where personal opinion and bias is involved will have flaws. If someone doesn't want to vote for the hof, I don't believe there is any gun pointed to the head in order to make them do so.

 

[Tom Servo]

these are the same type of guys that would leave stone cold steve austin out the WWF HOF first ballot because he drinks beer in the ring

— Fernando Tatis (@FernandoTatis17) January 8, 2014

 

[Tom Servo]

After all the pontificating and controversy, I have no argument whatsover with the three guys who were voted in. Congrats to them. The system certainly has its flaws but it's not entirely broken.

We only have another 20 years or so to retroactively debate the steroid era.

Yeah, I don't get all the pearl-clutching people do over this. It's like 1.2% of all players who were MLBers get in. I think things are OK for the most part.

 

[Tom Servo]

BTW, nice post Guru. Exceptionally well said.

 

[Vike Me]

How is Mike Piazza not in? The idiot voters know he was a catcher, right?

 

[Snotbubbles]

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

My ballot would be pretty much this except I'd leave off Bonds and Clemens...yeah, I'm one of those guys.

Are you privy to the drug tests of Biggio, Maddux, Glavine and Thomas? Bonds and Clemens not being in the HOF would make it a bigger joke than it already is.

 

[oso diablo]

Biggio had great versatility, but Smoltz was versatile with a novelty factor. The Press loves Smoltz and aren't exactly cozy with Biggio. I'd be surprised if Biggio trumps Smoltz in next year's voting.

You're nuts.

nuts about what? You dont think smoltz gets more votes than biggio next year?

nobody who is really paying attention does

 

[oso diablo]

oh and biggio isnt a HOFer. if he wasnt a HOFer with 2900 hits,

3000 doesn't make it so. .280 hitter, 200 hits once? 7 time AS

in 20 years? top 10 mvp votino i think once, maybe

twice? Great durability, but a classic compiler that is a notch

below.

Up-the-middle guys with 3000+ hits: Cobb, Speaker, Wagner, Jeter, Collins, Mays, Lajoie, Ripken, Yount, Biggio

 

[Don Quixote]

I think smoltz is more of a lock than biggio. Biggio was never dominant. If he didnt get 3000 hits he wouldnt even be close to a HOFer (in the voters minds) but since he hit 3000 hell eventually get in

If Biggio was "never dominant," I don't think Smoltz can claim being dominant either. Both have approximately the same career WAR, according to B-R. Smoltz has one Cy Young award, but he got it solely because he pitched for the Braves and Kevin Brown pitched the Marlins.

 

[Anarchy99]

Here are the players not in the HOF that ranked in the Top 200 for career WAR according to B-R:

Rank	Player	                WAR4	Barry Bonds (22)	162.58	Roger Clemens (24)	140.317	Alex Rodriguez (20, 37)	115.728	Randy Johnson (22)	102.140	Albert Pujols (13, 33)	9350	Chipper Jones (19)	85.254	Pedro Martinez (18)	8456	Ken Griffey (22)	83.657	Mike Mussina (18)	8362	Curt Schilling (20)	79.963	Jeff Bagwell (15)	79.564	Pete Rose (24)          79.472	Jim McCormick (10)	75.874	Bill Dahlen (21)	75.377	Lou Whitaker (19)	74.883	Jim Thome (22)	        72.885	Larry Walker (17)	72.687	Rafael Palmeiro (20)	71.888	Derek Jeter (19, 39)	71.690	Bobby Grich (17)	7193	Adrian Beltre (16, 34)	70.594	Alan Trammell (20)	70.498	Rick Reuschel (19)	7098	Scott Rolen (17)	70101	John Smoltz (21)	69.5105	Tim Raines (23)	        69.1105	Manny Ramirez (19, 41)	69.1109	Kevin Brown (19)	68.3109	Edgar Martinez (18)	68.3109	Ivan Rodriguez (21)	68.3114	Kenny Lofton (17)	68.1115	Graig Nettles (22)	68116	Tony Mullane (13)	67.8120	Carlos Beltran (16, 36)	67.5125	Dwight Evans (20)	66.7125	Luis Tiant (19)	        66.7131	Buddy Bell (18)	        65.9132	Willie Randolph (18)	65.6134	Craig Biggio (20)	64.9136	Roy Halladay (16, 36)	64.6137	Reggie Smith (17)	64.4152	Ken Boyer (15)	        62.9153	Andruw Jones (17)	62.7155	David Cone (17)	        62.5156	Shoeless Joe Jackson 	62.4157	Charlie Buffinton (11)	62.2158	Tommy John (26)	        62158	Mark McGwire (16)	62161	Sal Bando (16)	        61.6161	Wes Ferrell (15)	61.6163	Jack Glasscock (17)	61.4165	Todd Helton (17, 39)	61.3167	Tommy Bond (10)	        61169	Andy Pettitte (18, 41)	60.8170	Willie Davis (18)	60.7171	Bob Caruthers (10)	60.6172	Bobby Abreu (17)	60.4172	Gary Sheffield (22)	60.4175	Jim Edmonds (17)	60.3177	Keith Hernandez (17)	60.1179	Vladimir Guerrero (16)	59.9184	Mike Piazza (16)	59.2184	Bret Saberhagen (16)	59.2187	Sherry Magee (16)	59.1188	**** Allen (15)	        58.7188	Urban Shocker (13)	58.7190	Darrell Evans (21)	58.5190	Ichiro Suzuki (13, 39)	58.5193	Chuck Finley (17)	58.4193	Sammy Sosa (18)	        58.4195	Chase Utley (11, 34)	58.2196	Jack Quinn (23)	        58.1197	Eddie Cicotte (14)	58197	John Olerud (17)	58199	Frank Tanana (21)	57.9

 

[shuke]

Biggio had great versatility, but Smoltz was versatile with a novelty factor. The Press loves Smoltz and aren't exactly cozy with Biggio. I'd be surprised if Biggio trumps Smoltz in next year's voting.

You're nuts.

nuts about what? You dont think smoltz gets more votes than biggio next year?

Sorry, I thought he was implying that Biggio would not make the cut because Smoltz is on the ballot.

Biggio is in next year. Bank on it.

 

[Eephus]

Here are the players not in the HOF that ranked in the Top 200 for career WAR according to B-R:

Rank Player WAR64 Pete Rose (24) 79.472 Jim McCormick (10) 75.874 Bill Dahlen (21) 75.377 Lou Whitaker (19) 74.8

Jim McCormick had a better moustache than Jack Morris

 

[Despyzer]

Unlike Abraham, I'm not suggesting Biggio will never get in, but I think the idea that he is a lock simply because he fell two votes shy this year is specious.

• Not every player earns more votes the more years they are on the ballot. Bonds and Clemens actually received fewer votes this year than last. Impressions change from year to year, and sometimes the feeling is that if the guy hasn't made it yet, maybe he was never all that worthy in the first place.
• Yes, we had three guy make it and one guy go off the ballot, but we have at least four worthy candidates coming in. I mentioned Johnson, Smoltz, and Martinez before. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to argue Gary Scheffield's place over Biggio.
• What happens if those voters who thought they were "punishing" the steroids crew decide that Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, and whoever else have suffered enough? It seems unlikely that most of those writers were picking ten guys anyway, but some of them might have.
• Of next year's nominees, Biggio is 13th in WAR, 16th in best 7 WAR years, and 16th in WAR avg. at his position. Granted, some of those guys in front of him have no shot (Paul Byrd, Brian Giles, Jarrod Washburn, Jermaine Dye), but that still could still influence some voters to leave him off a ballot.

Once again, i am not arguing that he should not make it or that he cannot make it, just that he might not make it even though he came so close this year.

 

[shuke]

Unlike Abraham, I'm not suggesting Biggio will never get in, but I think the idea that he is a lock simply because he fell two votes shy this year is specious.

• Not every player earns more votes the more years they are on the ballot. Bonds and Clemens actually received fewer votes this year than last. Impressions change from year to year, and sometimes the feeling is that if the guy hasn't made it yet, maybe he was never all that worthy in the first place.
• Yes, we had three guy make it and one guy go off the ballot, but we have at least four worthy candidates coming in. I mentioned Johnson, Smoltz, and Martinez before. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to argue Gary Scheffield's place over Biggio.
• What happens if those voters who thought they were "punishing" the steroids crew decide that Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, and whoever else have suffered enough? It seems unlikely that most of those writers were picking ten guys anyway, but some of them might have.
• Of next year's nominees, Biggio is 13th in WAR, 16th in best 7 WAR years, and 16th in WAR avg. at his position. Granted, some of those guys in front of him have no shot (Paul Byrd, Brian Giles, Jarrod Washburn, Jermaine Dye), but that still could still influence some voters to leave him off a ballot.

Once again, i am not arguing that he should not make it or that he cannot make it, just that he might not make it even though he came so close this year.

Absolute lock next year.

 

[Frostillicus]

I could read Greg Maddux stories all day...

This week, many will celebrate Maddux’s 355 wins, the second-highest total in the last 100 years. [snip]Maddux should be one of the most-copied pitchers ever, yet few would even know where to begin, because he seldom opened up about what he believed about pitching and why.

First, Maddux was convinced no hitter could tell the speed of a pitch with any meaningful accuracy. To demonstrate, he pointed at a road a quarter-mile away and said it was impossible to tell if a car was going 55, 65 or 75 mph unless there was another car nearby to offer a point of reference.

“You just can’t do it,” he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.

“Except,” Maddux said, “for that [expletive] Tony Gwynn.”

Because of this inherent ineradicable flaw in hitters, Maddux’s main goal was to “make all of my pitches look like a column of milk coming toward home plate.” Every pitch should look as close to every other as possible, all part of that “column of milk.” He honed the same release point, the same look, to all his pitches, so there was less way to know its speed — like fastball 92 mph, slider 84, changeup 76.

One day I sat a dozen feet behind Maddux’s catcher as three Braves pitchers, all in a row, did their throwing sessions side-by-side. Lefty Steve Avery made his catcher’s glove explode with noise from his 95-mph fastball. His curve looked like it broke a foot-and-a-half. He was terrifying. Yet I could barely tell the difference between Greg’s pitches. Was that a slider, a changeup, a two-seam or four-seam fastball? Maddux certainly looked better than most college pitchers, but not much. Nothing was scary.

Afterward, I asked him how it went, how he felt, everything except “Is your arm okay?” He picked up the tone. With a cocked grin, like a Mad Dog whose table scrap doesn’t taste quite right, he said, “That’s all I got.”

Then he explained that I couldn’t tell his pitches apart because his goal was late quick break, not big impressive break. The bigger the break, the sooner the ball must start to swerve and the more milliseconds the hitter has to react; the latter the break, the less reaction time. Deny the batter as much information — speed or type of last-instant deviation — until it is almost too late.

But not entirely too late: Maddux didn’t want swings and misses for strikeouts, but preferred weak defensive contact and easy outs. He sought pitches that looked hittable and identical — getting the hitter to commit to swing — but weren’t. Any pitch that didn’t conform to this, even if it looked good, was scrapped as inefficient.

“Greg was the only pitcher I’ve ever seen who never practiced from the wind-up between starts — only from the stretch,” Kasten said. “He said, ‘From the wind-up, I only try to keep the ball in the park. I’m good at that. But the only time I have to really pitch is from the stretch with men on base. So that’s all I practice.’”

Kasten wondered, “Why hasn’t anyone else thought of that?”

When available, Maddux studied tape of every home run hit in the big leagues the previous day. That’s all: homers. Where were the danger zones — location, location?

I love Maddux stories. I read two today that I'd link but drunk.

 

[Tom Servo]

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

My ballot would be pretty much this except I'd leave off Bonds and Clemens...yeah, I'm one of those guys.

Are you privy to the drug tests of Biggio, Maddux, Glavine and Thomas? Bonds and Clemens not being in the HOF would make it a bigger joke than it already is.

Easy, tiger. It's just my opinion. Don't get riled up about it.

 

[oso diablo]

Biggio will get at least 4x as many HOF votes next year as Gary Sheffield

 

[oso diablo]

BBWAA releases some of the ballots

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I could read Greg Maddux stories all day...

This week, many will celebrate Maddux’s 355 wins, the second-highest total in the last 100 years. [snip]Maddux should be one of the most-copied pitchers ever, yet few would even know where to begin, because he seldom opened up about what he believed about pitching and why.

First, Maddux was convinced no hitter could tell the speed of a pitch with any meaningful accuracy. To demonstrate, he pointed at a road a quarter-mile away and said it was impossible to tell if a car was going 55, 65 or 75 mph unless there was another car nearby to offer a point of reference.

“You just can’t do it,” he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.

“Except,” Maddux said, “for that [expletive] Tony Gwynn.”

Because of this inherent ineradicable flaw in hitters, Maddux’s main goal was to “make all of my pitches look like a column of milk coming toward home plate.” Every pitch should look as close to every other as possible, all part of that “column of milk.” He honed the same release point, the same look, to all his pitches, so there was less way to know its speed — like fastball 92 mph, slider 84, changeup 76.

One day I sat a dozen feet behind Maddux’s catcher as three Braves pitchers, all in a row, did their throwing sessions side-by-side. Lefty Steve Avery made his catcher’s glove explode with noise from his 95-mph fastball. His curve looked like it broke a foot-and-a-half. He was terrifying. Yet I could barely tell the difference between Greg’s pitches. Was that a slider, a changeup, a two-seam or four-seam fastball? Maddux certainly looked better than most college pitchers, but not much. Nothing was scary.

Afterward, I asked him how it went, how he felt, everything except “Is your arm okay?” He picked up the tone. With a cocked grin, like a Mad Dog whose table scrap doesn’t taste quite right, he said, “That’s all I got.”

Then he explained that I couldn’t tell his pitches apart because his goal was late quick break, not big impressive break. The bigger the break, the sooner the ball must start to swerve and the more milliseconds the hitter has to react; the latter the break, the less reaction time. Deny the batter as much information — speed or type of last-instant deviation — until it is almost too late.

But not entirely too late: Maddux didn’t want swings and misses for strikeouts, but preferred weak defensive contact and easy outs. He sought pitches that looked hittable and identical — getting the hitter to commit to swing — but weren’t. Any pitch that didn’t conform to this, even if it looked good, was scrapped as inefficient.

“Greg was the only pitcher I’ve ever seen who never practiced from the wind-up between starts — only from the stretch,” Kasten said. “He said, ‘From the wind-up, I only try to keep the ball in the park. I’m good at that. But the only time I have to really pitch is from the stretch with men on base. So that’s all I practice.’”

Kasten wondered, “Why hasn’t anyone else thought of that?”

When available, Maddux studied tape of every home run hit in the big leagues the previous day. That’s all: homers. Where were the danger zones — location, location?

I love Maddux stories. I read two today that I'd link but drunk.

Did anyone catch Maddux and Glavine on MLB Network last night? Nothing really insightful, but it was cool to see them together talking about the craft.

Also, wow, has Maddux let himself go. If Glavine popped on hat he'd look just like he did when he retired. Maddux has put on an easy 50-75 lbs and looks like he aged 20 years in the past 7.

 

[dparker713]

I could read Greg Maddux stories all day...

This week, many will celebrate Maddux’s 355 wins, the second-highest total in the last 100 years. [snip]Maddux should be one of the most-copied pitchers ever, yet few would even know where to begin, because he seldom opened up about what he believed about pitching and why.

First, Maddux was convinced no hitter could tell the speed of a pitch with any meaningful accuracy. To demonstrate, he pointed at a road a quarter-mile away and said it was impossible to tell if a car was going 55, 65 or 75 mph unless there was another car nearby to offer a point of reference.

“You just can’t do it,” he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.

“Except,” Maddux said, “for that [expletive] Tony Gwynn.”

Because of this inherent ineradicable flaw in hitters, Maddux’s main goal was to “make all of my pitches look like a column of milk coming toward home plate.” Every pitch should look as close to every other as possible, all part of that “column of milk.” He honed the same release point, the same look, to all his pitches, so there was less way to know its speed — like fastball 92 mph, slider 84, changeup 76.

One day I sat a dozen feet behind Maddux’s catcher as three Braves pitchers, all in a row, did their throwing sessions side-by-side. Lefty Steve Avery made his catcher’s glove explode with noise from his 95-mph fastball. His curve looked like it broke a foot-and-a-half. He was terrifying. Yet I could barely tell the difference between Greg’s pitches. Was that a slider, a changeup, a two-seam or four-seam fastball? Maddux certainly looked better than most college pitchers, but not much. Nothing was scary.

Afterward, I asked him how it went, how he felt, everything except “Is your arm okay?” He picked up the tone. With a cocked grin, like a Mad Dog whose table scrap doesn’t taste quite right, he said, “That’s all I got.”

Then he explained that I couldn’t tell his pitches apart because his goal was late quick break, not big impressive break. The bigger the break, the sooner the ball must start to swerve and the more milliseconds the hitter has to react; the latter the break, the less reaction time. Deny the batter as much information — speed or type of last-instant deviation — until it is almost too late.

But not entirely too late: Maddux didn’t want swings and misses for strikeouts, but preferred weak defensive contact and easy outs. He sought pitches that looked hittable and identical — getting the hitter to commit to swing — but weren’t. Any pitch that didn’t conform to this, even if it looked good, was scrapped as inefficient.

“Greg was the only pitcher I’ve ever seen who never practiced from the wind-up between starts — only from the stretch,” Kasten said. “He said, ‘From the wind-up, I only try to keep the ball in the park. I’m good at that. But the only time I have to really pitch is from the stretch with men on base. So that’s all I practice.’”

Kasten wondered, “Why hasn’t anyone else thought of that?”

When available, Maddux studied tape of every home run hit in the big leagues the previous day. That’s all: homers. Where were the danger zones — location, location?

I love Maddux stories. I read two today that I'd link but drunk.

Did anyone catch Maddux and Glavine on MLB Network last night? Nothing really insightful, but it was cool to see them together talking about the craft.

Also, wow, has Maddux let himself go. If Glavine popped on hat he'd look just like he did when he retired. Maddux has put on an easy 50-75 lbs and looks like he aged 20 years in the past 7.

Dude is just finally off the roids.

 

[Vike Me]

Here are the players not in the HOF that ranked in the Top 200 for career WAR according to B-R:

Rank Player WAR64 Pete Rose (24) 79.477 Lou Whitaker (19) 74.894 Alan Trammell (20) 70.4105 Tim Raines (23) 69.1134 Craig Biggio (20) 64.9156 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.4184 Mike Piazza (16) 59.2

Of those that are eligible.

 

[guru_007]

BBWAA releases some of the ballots

One thing I heard that I found interesting is that something like 50% of voters used all 10 of their votes this year.The highest percentage previous to that was like 22% or something.

 

[Anarchy99]

Here are the players not in the HOF that ranked in the Top 200 for career WAR according to B-R:

Rank Player WAR64 Pete Rose (24) 79.477 Lou Whitaker (19) 74.894 Alan Trammell (20) 70.4105 Tim Raines (23) 69.1134 Craig Biggio (20) 64.9156 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.4184 Mike Piazza (16) 59.2

Of those that are eligible.

Not sure what you mean. Rose and Jackson are not eligible. And there were others on the first list I posted that are eligible.

 

[Vike Me]

Here are the players not in the HOF that ranked in the Top 200 for career WAR according to B-R:

Rank Player WAR64 Pete Rose (24) 79.477 Lou Whitaker (19) 74.894 Alan Trammell (20) 70.4105 Tim Raines (23) 69.1134 Craig Biggio (20) 64.9156 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.4184 Mike Piazza (16) 59.2

Of those that are eligible.

Not sure what you mean. Rose and Jackson are not eligible. And there were others on the first list I posted that are eligible.

That's who I would include of the ones I would include if I could (of the ones on the list that have been retired 5 years - that kind of eligible). Sorry I didn't make that clear.

 

[greenroom]

Love what Lebotard did. Couldn't support him more. The Hall of Fame and the BBWA don't deserve the respect they demand in this process. I hope the whole thing blows up now as a result.

Not sure I agree at all.Every professional sports hall of fame voting is just a glorified popularity contest. I think most people are aware of that.

At least with the baseball hof vote, I think there is some degree of transparency. Vote totals are published. There are very open debates/articles written in regard to certain players qualifications or lack thereof.

Does it have flaws? Sure it does, but any process where personal opinion and bias is involved will have flaws. If someone doesn't want to vote for the hof, I don't believe there is any gun pointed to the head in order to make them do so.

Could not disagree with you more. The baseball Hall of fame voting is not transparent at all. Yes they publish saying that x person got what number of total votes, however there is no process of how they do it. You have baseball writers who were part of the game and part of the cover-up of the roid era at this point trying to play judge and jury of the players of the roid era. And lets not talk about how they keep some players out of the HOF, because they were not media friendly? Last I checked the HOF is about actions on the field, not saying that off field does not matter. But how a play interacts with the media should not matter.

What I find funny, is that voters will not vote for players, but will vote for managers and executives of the era, that benefited from the players they refuse to vote for? Explain Tony Larussa getting in?

 

[dparker713]

The BBWAA Vice President has been crowdsourcing his vote for years. Would really love to hear how what LeBatard did is really any different.

 

[oso diablo]

The BBWAA Vice President has been crowdsourcing his vote for years. Would really love to hear how what LeBatard did is really any different.

please explain or link. not doubting you; just haven't heard of this before.

 

[greenroom]

The BBWAA Vice President has been crowdsourcing his vote for years. Would really love to hear how what LeBatard did is really any different.

please explain or link. not doubting you; just haven't heard of this before.

Link from USA Today

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/bbwaa-vice-president-let-fans-help-him-vote-on-the-hall-of-fame-dan-le-batard/

DeadSpin also did a story a little more in depth of what the VP did, but it has the F word in the URL.. So I will not post the link

 

[rodg12]

The BBWAA Vice President has been crowdsourcing his vote for years. Would really love to hear how what LeBatard did is really any different.

please explain or link. not doubting you; just haven't heard of this before.

Link from USA Today

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/bbwaa-vice-president-let-fans-help-him-vote-on-the-hall-of-fame-dan-le-batard/

DeadSpin also did a story a little more in depth of what the VP did, but it has the F word in the URL.. So I will not post the link

Unreal!!!!

 

[Polar Dude]

The BBWAA Vice President has been crowdsourcing his vote for years. Would really love to hear how what LeBatard did is really any different.

please explain or link. not doubting you; just haven't heard of this before.

Link from USA Today

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/bbwaa-vice-president-let-fans-help-him-vote-on-the-hall-of-fame-dan-le-batard/

DeadSpin also did a story a little more in depth of what the VP did, but it has the F word in the URL.. So I will not post the link

I do see a distinction, even though it admittedly is a slight one. In LeBatard's case, he agreed to turn his vote over entirely to Deadspin. If they so chose, they could have tried to make a complete mockery of the occasion. In this situation, Ortiz maintained control over his vote and was only seeking outside opinions.

 

[dparker713]

The BBWAA Vice President has been crowdsourcing his vote for years. Would really love to hear how what LeBatard did is really any different.

please explain or link. not doubting you; just haven't heard of this before.

Link from USA Today

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/bbwaa-vice-president-let-fans-help-him-vote-on-the-hall-of-fame-dan-le-batard/

DeadSpin also did a story a little more in depth of what the VP did, but it has the F word in the URL.. So I will not post the link

I do see a distinction, even though it admittedly is a slight one. In LeBatard's case, he agreed to turn his vote over entirely to Deadspin. If they so chose, they could have tried to make a complete mockery of the occasion. In this situation, Ortiz maintained control over his vote and was only seeking outside opinions.

Actually, LeBatard has stated that he always held the right to ignore the Deadspin vote if he thought it had a silly result.

 

[Don Quixote]

Maddux won't go in as a Brave: http://baseballhall.org/news/press-releases/cap-selections-announced-hall-fame-plaques-class-2014-inductees

Old Hoss Radbourn‏@OldHossRadbourn4 mins

"Gen. Lee had a distinguished career in both the Union and Rebel armies, and thus it's not fair for history to associate him with only one."

 

[Koya]

Maddux won't go in as a Brave: http://baseballhall.org/news/press-releases/cap-selections-announced-hall-fame-plaques-class-2014-inductees

Old Hoss Radbourn‏@OldHossRadbourn4 mins

"Gen. Lee had a distinguished career in both the Union and Rebel armies, and thus it's not fair for history to associate him with only one."

Wtf ###### ####?

 

[Polar Dude]

I like it. The idea of choosing a club (unless they served their entire career-span with one team) seems a bit goofy anyway.

 

[pollardsvision]

I was pretty surprised about Maddux. It's his choice and it really doesn't matter, but he was with one franchise for 11 years with 3 CY's, a WS title, and a bazillion division titles.

The other franchise was abysmal, let him walk as a 26 YO CY winner and later showed him deep respect by trading him away for an Izturii.

 

[RnR]

I was pretty surprised about Maddux. It's his choice and it really doesn't matter, but he was with one franchise for 11 years with 3 CY's, a WS title, and a bazillion division titles.

The other franchise was abysmal, let him walk as a 26 YO CY winner and later showed him deep respect by trading him away for an Izturii.

 

[Polar Dude]

I was pretty surprised about Maddux. It's his choice and it really doesn't matter, but he was with one franchise for 11 years with 3 CY's, a WS title, and a bazillion division titles.

The other franchise was abysmal, let him walk as a 26 YO CY winner and later showed him deep respect by trading him away for an Izturii.

My guess would be he feels Cooperstown is more about the fans than it is the franchises.

 

[Eephus]

I was pretty surprised about Maddux. It's his choice and it really doesn't matter, but he was with one franchise for 11 years with 3 CY's, a WS title, and a bazillion division titles.

The other franchise was abysmal, let him walk as a 26 YO CY winner and later showed him deep respect by trading him away for an Izturii.

My guess would be he feels Cooperstown is more about the fans than it is the franchises.

Typical Maddux thug style

 

[Wrigley]

I was pretty surprised about Maddux. It's his choice and it really doesn't matter, but he was with one franchise for 11 years with 3 CY's, a WS title, and a bazillion division titles.

The other franchise was abysmal, let him walk as a 26 YO CY winner and later showed him deep respect by trading him away for an Izturii.

My guess would be he feels Cooperstown is more about the fans than it is the franchises.

Typical Maddux thug style

I was pretty surprised about Maddux. It's his choice and it really doesn't matter, but he was with one franchise for 11 years with 3 CY's, a WS title, and a bazillion division titles.

The other franchise was abysmal, let him walk as a 26 YO CY winner and later showed him deep respect by trading him away for an Izturii.

My guess would be he feels Cooperstown is more about the fans than it is the franchises.

Typical Maddux thug style

racist

 

[Eephus]

A punter makes the Hall of Fame and Jack Morris didn't

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Here are the players not in the HOF that ranked in the Top 200 for career WAR according to B-R:

Rank Player WAR4 Barry Bonds (22) 162.58 Roger Clemens (24) 140.317 Alex Rodriguez (20, 37) 115.728 Randy Johnson (22) 102.140 Albert Pujols (13, 33) 9350 Chipper Jones (19) 85.254 Pedro Martinez (18) 8456 Ken Griffey (22) 83.657 Mike Mussina (18) 8362 Curt Schilling (20) 79.963 Jeff Bagwell (15) 79.564 Pete Rose (24) 79.472 Jim McCormick (10) 75.874 Bill Dahlen (21) 75.377 Lou Whitaker (19) 74.883 Jim Thome (22) 72.885 Larry Walker (17) 72.687 Rafael Palmeiro (20) 71.888 Derek Jeter (19, 39) 71.690 Bobby Grich (17) 7193 Adrian Beltre (16, 34) 70.594 Alan Trammell (20) 70.498 Rick Reuschel (19) 7098 Scott Rolen (17) 70101 John Smoltz (21) 69.5105 Tim Raines (23) 69.1105 Manny Ramirez (19, 41) 69.1109 Kevin Brown (19) 68.3109 Edgar Martinez (18) 68.3109 Ivan Rodriguez (21) 68.3114 Kenny Lofton (17) 68.1115 Graig Nettles (22) 68116 Tony Mullane (13) 67.8120 Carlos Beltran (16, 36) 67.5125 Dwight Evans (20) 66.7125 Luis Tiant (19) 66.7131 Buddy Bell (18) 65.9132 Willie Randolph (18) 65.6134 Craig Biggio (20) 64.9136 Roy Halladay (16, 36) 64.6137 Reggie Smith (17) 64.4152 Ken Boyer (15) 62.9153 Andruw Jones (17) 62.7155 David Cone (17) 62.5156 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.4157 Charlie Buffinton (11) 62.2158 Tommy John (26) 62158 Mark McGwire (16) 62161 Sal Bando (16) 61.6161 Wes Ferrell (15) 61.6163 Jack Glasscock (17) 61.4165 Todd Helton (17, 39) 61.3167 Tommy Bond (10) 61169 Andy Pettitte (18, 41) 60.8170 Willie Davis (18) 60.7171 Bob Caruthers (10) 60.6172 Bobby Abreu (17) 60.4172 Gary Sheffield (22) 60.4175 Jim Edmonds (17) 60.3177 Keith Hernandez (17) 60.1179 Vladimir Guerrero (16) 59.9184 Mike Piazza (16) 59.2184 Bret Saberhagen (16) 59.2187 Sherry Magee (16) 59.1188 **** Allen (15) 58.7188 Urban Shocker (13) 58.7190 Darrell Evans (21) 58.5190 Ichiro Suzuki (13, 39) 58.5193 Chuck Finley (17) 58.4193 Sammy Sosa (18) 58.4195 Chase Utley (11, 34) 58.2196 Jack Quinn (23) 58.1197 Eddie Cicotte (14) 58197 John Olerud (17) 58199 Frank Tanana (21) 57.9

Look at Lou Whitaker's WAR, he was off the ballot after year one. Disgusting.

Trammell will eventually get in but I'm just angry Larkin got in with relative ease, and Tram has to wait for the vet committee. They are almost the same player statistically.

 

[jon_mx]

oh and biggio isnt a HOFer. if he wasnt a HOFer with 2900 hits,

3000 doesn't make it so. .280 hitter, 200 hits once? 7 time AS

in 20 years? top 10 mvp votino i think once, maybe

twice? Great durability, but a classic compiler that is a notch

below.

It depends on how you treat 2B. There are four statistically elite no doubt Hall of Famers and then the rest of the not that good. But if Alomar and Sandberg are HOF, then Biggio probably is too. Our perceptions of the time tell us that Alomar and Sandberg were so much better but Biggio's peak seasons are much closer than we think.

Whitaker was much better.