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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (3 Viewers)

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Cavs get their backup PG.

Deron Williams plans to join the Cavs, according to the Associated Press.
He still has to clear waivers, but there are a ton of reports saying the Cavs will be signing the former All-Star. Williams played on Team USA with LeBron James, so those two are familiar playing next to each other despite not playing on the same NBA team. He will back up Kyrie Irving and could also see some minutes in two-PG lineups. Obviously his fantasy value takes a major hit.

 
 
Source: AP

 
modogg said:
i'd say you need to consider the SIxers, but damn it i feel like the organization will screw up all the assets and what they have. You have some good youth on the team, a good coach, 1 or 2 foreign players who may have a good spot in the NBA ( i think he is only 19, but Furkan Kormaz has some legit talent, and the only reason he wasn't on the Sixers this year is because he needs to strengthen his body), and the assets are comparable to what the Celtics have. If the Lakers are succesful in their tanking this year we will get their 1st next year which i would guess will be a lottery pick. They get Sacremento's 1st in '19 which should be top 5-7. Not sure what else outside of that, and honestly i would feel a ton better if Hinkie was still in the office, but i would say they are legit competition. Cetics roster is definitely better currently, but a healthy Simmons and Embiid (and i know big IF) certainly make the Sixers competitive
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I can't consider the Sixers until I see them start winning games regularly...that doesn't mean they aren't heading in the right direction because it certainly appears they are...youth is great but at some point you need to start winning consistently (Jacksonville was like that in the NFL this year)...once they do and Embid's health looks like it can be trusted than I will take them seriously but right now I see the C's being much further along...

Question...what exactly was accomplished by The Noel trade?  On the surface I don't see what this does for Philly...   

 
Boston said:
I can't consider the Sixers until I see them start winning games regularly...that doesn't mean they aren't heading in the right direction because it certainly appears they are...youth is great but at some point you need to start winning consistently (Jacksonville was like that in the NFL this year)...once they do and Embid's health looks like it can be trusted than I will take them seriously but right now I see the C's being much further along...

Question...what exactly was accomplished by The Noel trade?  On the surface I don't see what this does for Philly...   
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To your 1st point, when the Sixers started getting healthy (except Simmons), they had a nice tear in January and February when it seemed like things were coming in place and the team was developing an identity. They have been able to maintain a bit even without Embiid out the last month, with Saric getting better and the team playing good overall ball. Not top seed in a conference ball, but competitive without their 2 best players sniffing the court

As for the question, I wish i knew. Honestly i would rather if the Sixers decided they were not going to resign Noel, to have traded him much earlier or even just let him walk. I think they are close to having every pick in the 2nd round for the next 2 years, so I really hope Colangelo doesn't think their is value with those picks. And maybe the trade overall isn't that horrendous (though it probably is, but i know i have always liked Noel so i may be bias), but just all the mishandling seems like Colangelo is out of his element. Really sucks going from the smart kid on the block hustling other teams all the time to being the sucker. I mean even thinking about how they tried to sell it as "a 1st round pick" is such b.s. A top 18 protected pick from dallas is like getting a top 10 protected 1st round from Brooklyn. Just smells like crap up and down. For the team, i think it was definitely the wrong move too. You could see an obvious difference in this team from the fall and '16, to the games they played in '17, and the majority of that was the difference between Noel and Okafor. Seeing how they only had Noel and Embiid play a total of 8 minutes together on the court it seems like they knew they were never going to keep Noel anyway. But a horrible trade (i think) and i can't see any benefit they really got out of it, unless a guy who couldn't start in Dallas is all of a sudden going to be something

 
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modogg said:
To your 1st point, when the Sixers started getting healthy (except Simmons), they had a nice tear in January in February when it seemed like things were coming in place. They have been able to maintain a bit even without Embiid out the last month, with Saric getting better and the team playing good overall ball. Not top seed in a conference ball, but competitive without their 2 best players sniffing the court

As for the question, I wish i knew. Honestly i would rather if the Sixers decided they were not going to resign Noel, to have traded him much earlier or even just let him walk. I think they are close to having every pick in the 2nd round for the next 2 years, so I really hope Colangelo doesn't think their is value with those picks. And maybe the trade overall isn't that horrendous (though it probably is, but i know i have always liked Noel so i may be bias), but just all the mishandling seems like Colangelo is out of his element. Really sucks going from the smart kid on the block hustling other teams all the time to being the sucker. I mean even thinking about how they tried to sell it as "a 1st round pick" is such b.s. A top 18 protected pick from dallas is like getting a top 10 protected 1st round from Brooklyn. Just smells like crap up and down. For the team, i think it was definitely the wrong move too. You could see an obvious difference in this team from the fall and '16, to the games they played in '17, and the majority of that was the difference between Noel and Okafor. Seeing how they only had Noel and Embiid play a total of 8 minutes together on the court it seems like they knew they were never going to keep Noel anyway. But a horrible trade (i think) and i can't see any benefit they really got out of it, unless a guy who couldn't start in Dallas is all of a sudden going to be something
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The funny part is your last sentence perfectly describes Jae Crowder when the C's got him in the Rondo deal...maybe they see something in Anderson that they really like...every player isn't a max player and maybe Anderson turns out to be a player that can contribute and not make big money...

 
Boston said:
Not now but who is besides Golden State-Cavs-Spurs...with their Coach, picks, stashes and young players they will get there...the fact Ainge is not mortgaging long term gain for short term fixes only enhances it...
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The team that signs the next huge free agent. 

 
Boston said:
The funny part is your last sentence perfectly describes Jae Crowder when the C's got him in the Rondo deal...maybe they see something in Anderson that they really like...every player isn't a max player and maybe Anderson turns out to be a player that can contribute and not make big money...
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We can hope. Fingers crossed and I'll like colangelo a ton more of he sees something others don't. The other issue with the trade is it still leaves the Sixers with an issue. Everybody talked about the logjam at center, which there was, but I still don't know what the Sixers do with okafor. Again hopefully the team sees something nobody else does but no way does okafor become more valuable then he is. Noel could and was gettIng better. I hope okafor proves me wrong but watching him a bunch this year it's hard to see

 
Boston said:
I can't consider the Sixers until I see them start winning games regularly...that doesn't mean they aren't heading in the right direction because it certainly appears they are...youth is great but at some point you need to start winning consistently (Jacksonville was like that in the NFL this year)...once they do and Embid's health looks like it can be trusted than I will take them seriously but right now I see the C's being much further along...

Question...what exactly was accomplished by The Noel trade?  On the surface I don't see what this does for Philly...   
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It got rid of Noel. That's about it. I can't tell what else it acomplished

 
modogg said:
We can hope. Fingers crossed and I'll like colangelo a ton more of he sees something others don't. The other issue with the trade is it still leaves the Sixers with an issue. Everybody talked about the logjam at center, which there was, but I still don't know what the Sixers do with okafor. Again hopefully the team sees something nobody else does but no way does okafor become more valuable then he is. Noel could and was gettIng better. I hope okafor proves me wrong but watching him a bunch this year it's hard to see
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Being in Toronto I know first hand how bad Colangelo is.  He was all about PR and appearances, and every move he made was really just to try to hide/make up for, but ultimately compounded, previous bad moves.  I was amazed that he was able to find another GM job in the league, to be honest.  I wish I had something encouraging to tell you, some kind of silver lining to ease your doubts, but unfortunately I do not.  Feel bad for Sixers fans.

 
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hxperson said:
Being in Toronto I know first hand how bad Colangelo is.  He was all about PR and appearances, and every move he made was really just to try to hide/make up for, but ultimately compound, previous bad moves.  I was amazed that he was able to find another GM job in the league, to be honest.  I wish I had something encouraging to tell you, some kind of silver lining to ease your doubts, but unfortunately I do not.  Feel bad for Sixers fans.
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Yea that's the vibe I've been getting since he's been here. And he only got this job because Lord Silver sent his dad to us and he couldn't be bothered to leave Arizona. So he sent his son, who also rarely is on site in Philly.

Its starting to sink in that this Process will be have been for nothing with Collangelo. Only hope is Simmons and Embiid are both generational players.

 
hxperson said:
Being in Toronto I know first hand how bad Colangelo is.  He was all about PR and appearances, and every move he made was really just to try to hide/make up for, but ultimately compounded, previous bad moves.  I was amazed that he was able to find another GM job in the league, to be honest.  I wish I had something encouraging to tell you, some kind of silver lining to ease your doubts, but unfortunately I do not.  Feel bad for Sixers fans.
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:sadbanana: worst part is that the reason he is here is all the NBA feeling they had to step in and "fix" the Sixers. the PR stuff is pretty bad too, i wasn't aware of it before but this entire debacle with Okafor was him using his contacts to act like their was all this interest in Okafor when it seems that in reality there was 1 or 2 teams and it was more lukewarm. Amazing how Hinkie can create this huge interest in the Sixers by building a potential championship team, just to see it get dismissed. at least the damage so far has been light, but i can see it suck the fandom from the team. If Embiid wasn't as charismatic as he is the hate could be real strong

 
Insein said:
Yea that's the vibe I've been getting since he's been here. And he only got this job because Lord Silver sent his dad to us and he couldn't be bothered to leave Arizona. So he sent his son, who also rarely is on site in Philly.

Its starting to sink in that this Process will be have been for nothing with Collangelo. Only hope is Simmons and Embiid are both generational players.
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When I think about this Noel trade, it was vintage Colangelo.  He obviously screwed up the Okafor/Noel situation badly (the Okafor not travelling thing and now still with the team is downright embarrassing and bush league), so he probably did the Noel trade to give him an opportunity for some kind of positive "spin" on his disastrous trade deadline.

 
Insein said:
Yea that's the vibe I've been getting since he's been here. And he only got this job because Lord Silver sent his dad to us and he couldn't be bothered to leave Arizona. So he sent his son, who also rarely is on site in Philly.

Its starting to sink in that this Process will be have been for nothing with Collangelo. Only hope is Simmons and Embiid are both generational players.
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i am really hoping Josh Harris and Sixers owners take more of a role too. is hard to see how the hinkie resignation came about, but they should beg him to act as an advisor or something

 
hxperson said:
When I think about this Noel trade, it was vintage Colangelo.  He obviously screwed up the Okafor/Noel situation badly (the Okafor not travelling thing and now still with the team is downright embarrassing and bush league), so he probably did the Noel trade to give him an opportunity for some kind of positive "spin" on his disastrous trade deadline.
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yeah i was nervous that he felt like he had to do something, and so he took whatever. 

ETA: his PR spinning is worse then i thought. every press release and everything says 1st round pick for Noel. Glad there is enough of a fanbase and groundswell that his b.s. hopefully won't work here

 
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So far--the Nurkic to Portland dynamic is looking really good.  Dude has played two games with Portland and in each has over a +20 in plus/minus rating.    Nurk has some solid skills for a big man--but is a bit raw and undisciplined.  If he can get "coached up" at Portland--I could see him becomming something special.  

 
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Cliff Clavin said:
To be fair, Colangelo essentially built the Raptors current core. Derozan, Lowry, JV... Though he had some insanely bad missteps along the way.
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He almost screwed that up as well by signing a washed up Steve Nash.  Lowry was just his backup plan when Nash picked the Lakeshow instead.

 
To be fair to Colengelo, the market for centers who can't shoot, but are expecting 20 million+ dollar a year contracts is exceedingly thin this year.  The center market moved away from Philly quickly especially with some of the center for center trades earlier in the month.  

 
Sammy3469 said:
To be fair to Colengelo, the market for centers who can't shoot, but are expecting 20 million+ dollar a year contracts is exceedingly thin this year.  The center market moved away from Philly quickly especially with some of the center for center trades earlier in the month.  
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if it was that simple it would be easier to swallow. Could Noel play the 4 at times? possibly. Having a line-up of Embiid and Noel would potentially be a juggernaut in the paint. Only problem is Sixers never even bothered to try it. Noel was also showing signs of improvement an refining his skills. Okafor has not. If they did not intend on giving Noel 20+ they should have moved him last summer or some other time. with him making this move 2 hours before the deadline it wreaks of desperation. 

Also would be better if he didn't come off as a used car salesman If no market for centers, don't force anything and stop with rumors of Okafor value throughout the league. 

and to suggest that Noel doesn't have value is short-sighted. he has shown improvement this year (last year his stats were not as good but he was forced to play the year as the 4 with Okafor as the 5), is young and would seem to be only getting better. We will see what his value is the off-season if he isn't resigned earlier, and i would be willing to bet people would be willing to pay for him

ETA: add this to the PR #### storm Colangelo and the front office had in the weeks lining up to the trade deadline with covering up the Embiid injury and misleading with Simmons recovery time. Could be easily avoided by just not lying or even after being caught owning up to it. 

ETA2: and the lie they are trying to promote about the 1st round pick they get in this deal is also what is going to get him killed. SHould have just told it like it was. I don't know the %, but i think it is almost impossible for the Mavs to not have the 18th pick or better. 

 
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Noel has value...2 2nd round picks and a 3rd year SF value.  Same as Cousins value is the package the Pels used.  In neither case was the value what one would 2-3 years ago for Cs of that talent level, but in the 2017 NBA that is their value.  Hell Okafor doesnt have any value either.   You can't hide centers at the PF position anymore and with only 48 minutes to work with, unless you are an uber elite non-head case you aren't worth much especially as a RFA expecting a big payday.

 
Sammy3469 said:
Noel has value...2 2nd round picks and a 3rd year SF value.  Same as Cousins value is the package the Pels used.  In neither case was the value what one would 2-3 years ago for Cs of that talent level, but in the 2017 NBA that is their value.  Hell Okafor doesnt have any value either.   You can't hide centers at the PF position anymore and with only 48 minutes to work with, unless you are an uber elite non-head case you aren't worth much especially as a RFA expecting a big payday.
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the Cousins trade does put it in perspective too, but it isn't as much the return what he got, it is all the b.s. and everything else surrounding it. 

 
Curry putting on a show tonight - drains a 3 from the Clippers bench while getting fouled

and ends the 3rd quarter with his 5th 3 of the quarter from outside near a hotdog stand with two Clippers on him

 
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bananafish said:
The Clips had their mouths wide open celebrating their 16 point lead and the Warriors pissed right into it.
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Think it was a good game for them to shake the rust off coming off the break. Clips had them in trouble at the half, and it was obviously pretty chippy. Nice to get pushed a little.

Obligatory: #### the Clips.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
So far--the Nurkic to Portland dynamic is looking really good.  Dude has played two games with Portland and in each has over a +20 in plus/minus rating.    Nurk has some solid skills for a big man--but is a bit raw and undisciplined.  If he can get "coached up" at Portland--I could see him becomming something special.  
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Well, I don't know about the "something special" part, but I do know that the last time a Portland player went 12/12/5 with 2 blocks and 3 steals in less than 35 minutes of playing time was.....never.

 
[scooter] said:
Well, I don't know about the "something special" part, but I do know that the last time a Portland player went 12/12/5 with 2 blocks and 3 steals in less than 35 minutes of playing time was.....never.
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That is pretty amazing considering some of the talented big men they have had, Rasheed, Sabonis, Aldridge. When you add the under 35 minute part I thought for sure Greg Oden was the answer. 

 
Watching hou-no replay and hou shot them off the court. What an improvement going from watching Josh smith/brewer clanking 3 after 3 to Gordon/anderson (2 former pelicans) along with Lou Williams and piecing together center is working great. Harden took all of 9 shots with 13-14 assists I believe. 

 
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thecatch said:
Poor Mike Malone now what, 0-6 vs the Kangz?
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That Marshall Miles Mason Plumlee trade is looking really good for the Nuggets. In two games against pretty bad teams, he is -40 and Jokic is +6. They've spent a lot of time on the court together too (about half of Plumlee's minutes).

For a similar price, the Nuggets could have scored Ibaka, Taj Gibson AND McBuckets, or Cousins (depending on the love they had for Hield)

For a cheaper price they could have had Noel, Bogut, or Ilyasova, plus another small handful of guys that weren't traded like Chandler or Okafor.

I'm excited for them to pay $15 million a year for a player that should only be playing 12-15 mpg behind Jokic, and at the same time missing out on some real difference makers in free agency because of that massive salary.

 
Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread or not, but Korver looks like a nice pickup for the Cavs.  I just looked it up and he is shooting like 52% from 3 since being with them.  In 32 games with Atlanta, he only broke 20 points 1 time, but has done it 4 times with the Cavs in 20 games.  Just seems like a really good fit for both the team and player and gives them a slightly better chance of hanging with the W's.  Plus with Boston not making any major adds, they should have an easier road to the Finals than Golden State.

 
Jayrod said:
Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread or not, but Korver looks like a nice pickup for the Cavs.  I just looked it up and he is shooting like 52% from 3 since being with them.  In 32 games with Atlanta, he only broke 20 points 1 time, but has done it 4 times with the Cavs in 20 games.  Just seems like a really good fit for both the team and player and gives them a slightly better chance of hanging with the W's.  Plus with Boston not making any major adds, they should have an easier road to the Finals than Golden State.
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Perfect fit, imo.

Derrick Williams has been pretty darn good also.  That's what happens when you aren't expected to be the savior anymore and you put someone with his athleticism with Lebron.  They are running some lineup of Williams, Lebron, Korver, Frye and Jefferson.  It's destroying opponents.

Add in Deron hopefully soon too.

With Korver, Derrick, and probably Deron (not Bogut as I previously thought), the Cavs crushed the "deadline".  

Come playoffs this version of the Cavs should be much better than last year's version as a whole, but it will be interesting to see how Lue distributes the minutes.  He'll definitely have alot of buttons to push if a series with the Warriors goes 6 or 7 games.

 
Kev4029 said:
That Marshall Miles Mason Plumlee trade is looking really good for the Nuggets. In two games against pretty bad teams, he is -40 and Jokic is +6. They've spent a lot of time on the court together too (about half of Plumlee's minutes).

For a similar price, the Nuggets could have scored Ibaka, Taj Gibson AND McBuckets, or Cousins (depending on the love they had for Hield)

For a cheaper price they could have had Noel, Bogut, or Ilyasova, plus another small handful of guys that weren't traded like Chandler or Okafor.

I'm excited for them to pay $15 million a year for a player that should only be playing 12-15 mpg behind Jokic, and at the same time missing out on some real difference makers in free agency because of that massive salary.
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I totally agree with you on the Plumlee trade not looking good for the Nuggets.  I actually think Plumlee is a pretty solid player--I just don't think that he's a great fit for the Nuggets roster and the way that the Nuggets roster is coached.  I think Jokic is a great player--but I do think that he is the type of player that thrives when playing with a certain roster type.  If he's essentially going to play as the "big man" on a team--he's going to leave you some deficiencies on the defensive end.  Look at Willie Caulie-Stein last night--goes for 29-10 against him.  KAT also had a big game against him.   Even Porzingis and Hernangomez combined for like 29pts against him--and if I remember right--Malone actually called Jokic out on getting outmuscled by Porzingis.  Essentially---when Jokic plays as the Nuggets big man--they tend to do well when they surround him with 4 other players that are offensively skilled and that can stretch the floor--and keep the paint open for him- Nelson, Gallo, Chandler, Harris, Barton, Murray...etc.   There is a reason why Malone has had a hard time integrating guys like Faried, Nurk and now Plumlee with him.  Essentially--if the Nuggets are going to win games with their current roster--they are most likely going to have to do so being poor defensively--but being great offensively.     The ideal type of player for the Nuggets would be a stretch 5. A big man that could protect the rim and be a presense of the defensive end--while spreading the floor and leaving space for Jokic to operate on the offensive end.   Somebody with a skill set of Myles Turner, possibly even a guy like Pau Gasol who can hit open shots, or Brook Lopez (who has added the 3pt shot to his game)--would do well.   

 
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Sammy3469 said:
Noel has value...2 2nd round picks and a 3rd year SF value.  Same as Cousins value is the package the Pels used.  In neither case was the value what one would 2-3 years ago for Cs of that talent level, but in the 2017 NBA that is their value.  Hell Okafor doesnt have any value either.   You can't hide centers at the PF position anymore and with only 48 minutes to work with, unless you are an uber elite non-head case you aren't worth much especially as a RFA expecting a big payday.
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This. Spacing is everything now. It's the reason the Celts are in the conversation with weak ball talent at almost every position, the terms under which largely uncoachable athletes are able to play some form of defense and the focus of everyone who wants to win basketball games. Used to be you couldnt win with a perimeter offense, now you cant win with an interior offense. Now, you dont got the mix, you aint in the mix. Dual bigs can work if they get the spacing down. Lesser talents probably shouldnt try, uncoachable supreme talents shouldn't try (which makes BoogieBrow unlikely to work). Like gap-oriented defenses in fb, the first guy to figure out hi-lo posting in modern spacing schemes is gonna win for several years while everyone else is going to go out & get dual bigs and fail, just like they're doing in the 3&D game now. 

 
Bobcat10 said:
Perfect fit, imo.

Derrick Williams has been pretty darn good also.  That's what happens when you aren't expected to be the savior anymore and you put someone with his athleticism with Lebron.  They are running some lineup of Williams, Lebron, Korver, Frye and Jefferson.  It's destroying opponents.

Add in Deron hopefully soon too.

With Korver, Derrick, and probably Deron (not Bogut as I previously thought), the Cavs crushed the "deadline".  

Come playoffs this version of the Cavs should be much better than last year's version as a whole, but it will be interesting to see how Lue distributes the minutes.  He'll definitely have alot of buttons to push if a series with the Warriors goes 6 or 7 games.
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You mean IF they can get past Toronto of course.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
I totally agree with you on the Plumlee trade not looking good for the Nuggets.  I actually think Plumlee is a pretty solid player--I just don't think that he's a great fit for the Nuggets roster and the way that the Nuggets roster is coached.  I think Jokic is a great player--but I do think that he is the type of player that thrives when playing with a certain roster type.  If he's essentially going to play as the "big man" on a team--he's going to leave you some deficiencies on the defensive end.  Look at Willie Caulie-Stein last night--goes for 29-10 against him.  KAT also had a big game against him.   Even Porzingis and Hernangomez combined for like 29pts against him--and if I remember right--Malone actually called Jokic out on getting outmuscled by Porzingis.  Essentially---when Jokic plays as the Nuggets big man--they tend to do well when they surround him with 4 other players that are offensively skilled and that can stretch the floor--and keep the paint open for him- Nelson, Gallo, Chandler, Harris, Barton, Murray...etc.   There is a reason why Malone has had a hard time integrating guys like Faried, Nurk and now Plumlee with him.  Essentially--if the Nuggets are going to win games with their current roster--they are most likely going to have to do so being poor defensively--but being great offensively.     The ideal type of player for the Nuggets would be a stretch 5. A big man that could protect the rim and be a presense of the defensive end--while spreading the floor and leaving space for Jokic to operate on the offensive end.   Somebody with a skill set of Myles Turner, possibly even a guy like Pau Gasol who can hit open shots, or Brook Lopez (who has added the 3pt shot to his game)--would do well.   
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Yeah, I agree with most of this. Plumlee would be a fine center for somebody, just not the Nuggets. They don't need a center, they need a power forward that can protect the rim and space the floor. The problem with that, is there is only a very small number of such players, and they are all expensive. Of guys that can actually be full time power forwards, you have Ibaka, Porzingas (probably much better at center), KAT (better at center), Durant (probably better at SF), Green, and Millsap. I would be happy to have the Nuggets give a three year max deal to either Millsap or a little less than three year max deal to Ibaka, but the other guys would never come here.

 
is there another sport where fans & teams give up on players faster than the NBA?

if you aren't a superstar inside 20 games, you're garbage

 
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